I am wanting the answer to that very question also! I am beginning a new garden this year and really wanted to cut the expense and hastle of the border. Anyone out there have any experience with no bordering a garden. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

I've used raised beds for years, but have only had success with some sort of form. I tried it without the use of forms once and had a terrible time with water runoff, which meant the plants didn't get all they needed, and soil eroded. In order to cut costs, I've gone to 2x4's - not as tall as many raised beds, but it still works fine if the soil underneath the bed has been loosened. For me, I have to dig out all of the grass, so it gets loosened about a shovel's depth during that process... By the time I add all my compost, the raised beds are pretty well full.

Last year, I wanted beds in front of my house, but didn't want a formal border, especially out of 2x4's! So, I dug out the grass by hand, shook the chunks of grass to get all the soil possible off of the roots, then added lots and lots of compost and dug it in...and waited to see what it would do. Much to my pleasure, everything grew every bit as well as they have in raised beds. I still put raised beds in another part of the yard, but I am now confident in non-raised beds, provided the soil is of good composition and has plenty of organic matter added. BTW - digging the grass out this way worked exceptionally well - I didn't have ANY weed issues with grass (except for the grass that crept in from the edges) and didn't have to use Round Up (though, if I lived out in the country again, I would definitely use Round Up...)

The biggest advantages to raised beds seem to be proper drainage, which, as my beds demonstrated, is mostly dependent upon soil conditions, and warmer soil temps in the spring making it possible to seed earlier outside, but this isn't an issue for me in these beds as all the plants are raised indoors. That being said, I did not grow any veggies that way, and my current garden plans are raised beds for the vegetables. I'm sure Dawn can add a lot more information to this. :-)

As to the double-dig method, I don't do it so much now. There are some who swear by it, and others who vehemently argue against it. I had great luck for many years with double-digging, so I don't really adhere to the anti-double-digging arguments. However, I now try to "mess" with the soil as little as possible, aside from mixing in organic matter, and let the worms and organic goodies do the work for me. This has worked just as well.

:-) Ada

That is helpful, Ada. I think I could afford 2X4s. :-) At least it would slow the runoff, and I am using double-dig.

Curious, though. What are the arguments against double-digging?

Buster,

Most of my veggie beds are framed with 2x4 or 2x6 lumber although the rose beds have 2x12s. Personally, I prefer lumber-framed beds and they are essential for us because our entire property is on a slope and water erosion is a huge issue.

On the outer edges of the veggie garden where I have a cottage border of flowers and herbs I did not use lumber framing (having already spent so much to build the veggie beds) and have had a lot of erosion in those areas. So, given the choice, I'd say any framing of any kind is better than none at all.

It might be possible to have raised beds without framing if you put down a heavy-duty woven landscape fabric, pegged it to the ground with staples, cut holes in it, planted through the holes, and then mulched heavily on top of the fabric. Between the mulch and the landscape fabric, you probably could cut back some on the amount of erosion but I doubt you'd completely stop it. You'd probably spend as much money on the good quality landscape fabric and mulch as you would spend on the lumber framing too, so you might not come out ahead economically.

Even on flat areas with very little slope, heavy rains cause a lot of run-off type erosion so I doubt it would be possible to maintain good raised beds without framing.

As far as the arguments against double-digging, there are quite a few.

First, every time you dig up one shovelful of soil you are exposing huge numbers of weed seeds to daylight and that daylight is often enough to induce germination. Studies have shown that ground that has been dug, tilled or plowed always has more weeds than soil farmed/gardened using no-till methods.

Secondly, double-digging (and single-digging too) disturbs the soil structure. Even though we often think of soil as an inert material, it is actually alive and teeming with many earth-borne insects and microbes. These insects and microbes tunnel through the earth and, along with plant roots, create the structure of the soil including open areas in between soil particles. So, when you dig up the soil, you destroy that natural structure and it can take years and years for it to be rebuilt.

Third, studies have shown that in areas where soil is repeatedly dug, double-dug, plowed, tilled, etc., there are soil compaction problems. Once again, these same soil compaction issues are not found in no-till areas.

So, even though many people feel double-digging is worthwhile, there are many others who could argue that it is not.

I think that, if you have very hard, very compacted clay soil that does not drain well, it might be worth your while to double dig if you don't have raised beds, but I don't think it is necessary if you are building raised beds above the grade of the surrounding area.

I helped my brother double-dig his huge veggie garden in Fort Worth and it probably was a good thing to do because he had somewhat rocky, caliche soil and we removed billions of rocks as we double-dug and added compost. He didn't have lumber-framed beds though.

I try to garden as naturally as I can and that includes the soil building I do. We did use a rear-tine tiller to break up the soil when we started our garden here, but that was because the red clay was so hard that you couldn't get a shovel, mattock, etc. into it--the tools just bounced off the soil surface. It was like trying to dig up concrete. After we broke up the clay and added manure, compost and shredded leaves to it, we tilled all that stuff together and then built lumber-framed raised beds. Nowadays I just mulch heavily and let the mulch feed the soil as it breaks down. I don't rototill the mulch down into the soil in most beds but instead let Mother Nature do it for me. Every now and then I till in some compost in the beds that had worse clay than the others and in which the soil improvement seems to be terribly slow. Out of 12 very large raised beds, only 1 or 2 ever get tilled.

Think about a woodland area. As the leaves fall, as the foliage of understory plants decomposes, as tree twigs, limbs and trunks fall to the ground....nothing and nobody is going into the woods and double-digging or rototilling that stuff into the ground. It breaks down on its own and the earthworms and other creatures carry the humus/compost down into the soil. So, why shouldn't it work the same way in our veggie gardens? I like to rotate root crops from bed to bed every year because those large roots "displace" soil as they grow downward and, when I remove the root crops, the soil is always so nice and fluffy there.

So, if I had a vote, I'd vote yes for framing raised beds if at all possible, but I'd vote no for double-digging. That's just my two cents worth.

Dawn

Buster,

That's what I thought about the 2X4's...they're usually pretty reasonable! You probably know this already, but you want to make sure to get untreated lumber, especially if you are growing edibles. Treated has either arsenic or copper in the concoction...

As for double-digging, it used to be one of the most recommended processes, especially from the perspective of English gardeners who have been doing it for a long time. As they started examining soil structure, though, they found that double-digging not only disturbs the micro-organisms and other living beings in the soil, it actually (at least in theory) compacts the soil, even though the intention is to loosen it up.

That being said, I had great success with double-digging - I never had trouble with weeds (though I sure did with tilling, something I avoid like the plague now), and I never developed hard-pan. This is probably because we added composted horse manure in as we double-dug. We opt not to double dig mostly because we don't want to disturb the soil structure any more than necessary. Instead, as I've mentioned, we dig out our grass, shake the soil loose from its roots, and add tons of compost. In an ideal situation, you let the compost sit on the top and the worms do the work, but that isn't practical when you want the bed right away. So, we dig it in lightly with a shovel or one of those 3-pronged hoe-like tools. It's hard to avoid digging in, especially if you have to add something like green sand to the soil. And, if you've got clay, you don't really have a choice but to dig the compost in...that is, if you want anything to grow!

As for frameless beds, I tried using weed cloth tacked down on the raised beds I had without a frame, but it didn't really help the water runoff issue, plus it was pricey. :-(

By the way, I don't know where you are located, but many of the larger municipal areas like Tulsa, OKC, or Norman have city compost facilities. I drive to Norman and get a big truck-load of mulch for free and nice compost for $10-15...

Ada

If you can find a saw mill close by, you can usually get their seconds or scrap cedar 2x4's at a good price. I bought 12 2x6x6 pieces last week for two bucks a piece. One thing I have found is if you don't staple hardware cloth or chicken wire to the bottom of the raised beds you will have burrowing pests in it. Typically, I will make the raised bed frame 10" high and dig it about 4 inches of into the ground. I will confess I did not do this for the bed I just built, but will be watching the gophers to see if they get in there. James

James,

You too?! Moles seem to constantly cause trouble! I have 2 adult cats, and you'd think they would take care of the issue... We raised 3 kittens who will be old enough to go outside this Spring (I admit, we baby them!), so maybe they'll get interested in watching out for their new turf!

Nonetheless, it's a good idea to use hardware cloth...I think I'll add it to my list.

Ada

Thanks to all so far.

Dawn, that is my problem. I have virgin, heavily compacted clay grown over with Bermuda grass or some such. I have to do something just to break it up. A heavy duty tiller broke the surface enough to get up the grass, but that's about it. I couldn't even dig after tilling, beyond about 5 or 6 inches, so I removed the top few inches, tilled again, then forked, then put the topsoil back on. I just spend a couple hours doing about a 5 by 12 area. :-)

It's either double dig or go with imported stuff, and I just can't afford that his year. I'm basically doing what you did your first year, which is tilling, double digging, and adding amendments.

Jamesey40, unfortunately I don't know of a saw mill in my area.

So Ada, I found the Norman website, but when is the next date and how do I find it out without their paper?

Buster,

Sounds like double digging, and probably raised beds, are your only option indeed with that kind of soil! You might be able to haul in soil from somewhere and then add compost to it - at one point I saw an add on Craig's List of someone trying to get rid of their topsoil (they built a house), and they even had it tested.

As to the compost, the best thing to do is to call the facility. The number is 405-292-9725. They just moved to a larger location, so I'm not sure what their hours are, though normally they are open until 4pm. If they are open now, you can get mulch now - it's not terribly fine, but the composition was pretty nice (I just got it about a week ago), and it was free - I dug it in for the initial round in my new beds and I'll add compost when it's available. I think it was hot enough not to have a bunch of seeds...(crossing my fingers, LOL). The last time I checked, they set the date for their compost in early-mid Spring. Actually, I need to check again. Keep in mind, make sure you go EARLY the first day (usually a Saturday) they open up their compost because it goes FAST! Last time I arrived around noon and we were one of the last people to get any compost. It was quite a site to see traffic backed up at least a mile, mostly with huge trucks obviously collecting compost for commercial purposes. Anyway, the next date they are open, we're taking my husband's two trucks (he's a contractor) and my parent's truck and filling them all up, LOL!

Ada

Buster,

If you have clay like mine, you have my sympathy. I did notice that after 3 or 4 years of amending, it had turned into really good soil, so there's hope!

Sometimes, a couple of days after we got an inch or two of rain, I'd go out and dig in the wet clay. Yes, it is not recommended that you dig in wet soil because it can cause compaction, but since I already had heavily compacted clay, I figured I couldn't make it much worse. I had to be really careful with the timing---couldn't dig the mucky clay while it was still so wet that it made that sucking sound when you tried to put a shovel of clay out of the ground, and couldn't wait so long that it had turned into concrete again.

When we had our tornado shelter put in, we got the guy with the backhole to dig up the red clay in an area where we wanted to put a large shrub bed. He dug down to a depth of about a foot. I then sheet composted in that area for 5 years in the fall/winter and sowed annuals right into that sheet compost in the spring, mulched after they sprouted, and repeated that cycle for 5 years until I had good soil there. Then I finally planted the shrubs. So, there's more than one way to skin a cat, as the old saying goes. What I considered sheet composting is now a bed-building method called 'lasagna gardening' only it tends to rely more on purchased bags of material and I was doing it with whatever I could scrounge up here on the property.

Would I have had the patience to sheet compost for 5 years before I planted a veggie garden? No. During those years that I was striving to improve the veggie soil, the shrub bed soil was slowly improving and as long as I was making progress, it was cool.

Don't forget that you can grow green manure (cover crops)in the fall/winter--stuff like cereal rye and vetch that you eventually can cut and either rototill into the beds or let decompose on the soil surface and plant through it in the spring. If you grow your own green manure crops, you can improve your soil in about half the time. Cover cropping is immensely popular in many parts of California where there is low rainfall and not a lot of organic material on-site to return to the soil in order to improve it.

When I compare the soil we have now in the improved areas to what we started with in the same location ten years ago, there is no comparison. So, hang in there and a few years from now you simply won't believe the change in your soil.

Dawn

Buster,

We just called Norman to get more mulch, and the recording said that they won't have any compost until this summer or early fall - evidently since they've moved their location. However, I'm pretty sure they have plenty of mulch, it's just not as fine as the compost. But, it's better than nothing, LOL!

Ada

this will be my firss year to have raised beds my garden is is about 70feet x 100 feet so will have sevral beds and money is very tight as always lol so i pounder a little acame up with using old wooden fence pannels a friend gave them to me and i have a nephew can get me some to all i have to do is cut them to size to make my frames

Rocky-matoe,

The idea of using cut-down pieces of fence panel to build raised beds is not a bad one, with this one caveat: if the fence panels were built with chemically treated lumber, then you might be introducing dangerous chemicals into the soil where you will be growing your vegetables. Maybe that matters to you, and maybe it doesn't matter at all. However, I would never knowingly introduce potentially-dangerous chemicals into soil where I am going to grow food that we will eat.

Older chemically-treated wood often was treated with CCA which contains arsenic. Even though arsenic is a naturally occurring chemical (in very minute quantities) in soil, the amount of it used in treated wood and the fact that it could leach from that wood would be reason enough to keep treated wood away from areas where edible crops are to be grown. CCA, by the way, is no longer used because of the risks it poses (I believe they stopped manufacturing and selling it for residential uses at the end of 2003), but older, chemically-treated wood treated with it may still be around, and that includes old, chemically-treated fence panels. Of course, there have been plenty of untreated fence panels sold in the past, as well as those that are made from woods (like cedar) that have natural pest/rot resistance and weren't treated with chemicals. Just some food for thought.

Dawn

your rightDawn about the treated wood its not a good idea using it in a garden mine are untreated thats why i did not use rail road ties they are also bad for a veggie garden

Rocky-matoe,

I'm glad yours are not the treated ones! I also am glad you mentioned the railroad ties, too, because I forgot to mention them when I was talking about treated wood. I would hope that nobody would ever grow edible crops in beds edged with creosote-treated wood.

Dawn

ummmm... GULP!! That's what I've been doing for years. None of us have died from eating what grew. What little that grew, that is...

Any suggestions on what to do with the ties, and what to replace them with? I assume some 2 X 6 lumber?

I supposed I could use a chain saw (yeah, I know it will dull the chain...) and cut them into the right length to make a base for my new gas grill. Other than that, any ideas?

Oh yeah--any idea when you have some free time to come help? ;)

Plaid Thumb,

Well, I wouldn't really have thought that anyone would die from eating food raised in a bed bordered with creosote, but there is a genuine concern by some people that the creosote leaches into the soil and the chemicals might contribute to health issues down the road. There is just so much we don't know about (a) how much of those chemicals leach into the soil and (b) whether or not crops take up those chemicals from the soil as they grow.

If it were me, I wouldn't necessarily remove the creosote-soaked railroad ties if I already had them and had used them for a very long time. It would depend, though, on how long ago I had bought them and on how much creosote they still seem to have in them. I would think that the ties probably would have leached out a lot of the creosote already if they are "old", but I don't know. Some of the folks in the linked discussion still had a lot of creosote after 40 years or so and that is somewhat worrisome.

I think what I would consider doing is one of the suggestions made in the discussion linked below--put in a plastic barrier between the railroad ties and the soil. I found it interesting that one of the folks in that discussion said that creosote soaks downward into the soil more than it soaks outward.

It is likely that nothing will grow well within 6" or so of the ties. And, even if it would grow, I don't think I'd eat anything--especially root crops--that were grown within 6" or 8" of the ties.

Adding organic material to the soil in the beds is another good suggestion for soil remediation when a contaminant (in this case, creosote) may be in the soil. There also is a product called Zeolite that can be added to the soil to absorb contaminants but I think it would be rather expensive to do on a large scale.

Two by six lumber would work as a replacement as would cinderblock or other stacked stone.

Read the attached link and see what one person said about cutting up their ties with a chainsaw before you start cutting. : )

Only you can make the decision about whether you think creosote-soaked ties are enough of a threat to you and your family's well-being to make it worth removing and replacing the ties. I still think a plastic barrier might be enough--that plus adding some organic material to the soil. I'm pretty cautious about using any kind of chemically treated lumber and I never would go out and buy some and put it anywhere near a potential food crop, but something that is old and has been there a long time has likely leached out so much of the chemical that it would be low on my list of things to worry about.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Previous Discussion on Creosote from the Organic Gardening Forum

Thanks, Dawn.

Darn it--I was really hoping I could blame the lousy gardening results on the RR ties. I know weeds have no problems growing right up against them, nor does bermuda.

If I can keep ahead of the trumpet vine this year, maybe I can accomplish something.

Plaid,

You're welcome.

"If I can keep ahead of the trumpet vine this year, maybe I can accomplish something." Well, good luck with that! LOL I do have two trumpet creeper vines that don't get rowdy and out of control, but I had to work hard to find a place with poor enough soil that it would limit their growth. : ) I planted them in heavy, red, thick clay that is hard as concrete and is too far from the house to ever get a drop of water from the hose. They are on an arbor between the driveway gate and the mailbox and they only get 6' to 8' tall before the summer drought completely stops their growth and darn near kills them every year. They do bloom nicely in the spring though, and sometimes again in the fall.

The trumpet creepers near the porch are rampant and invasive and I constantly hack them back. I do love the flowers but could do without the aggressiveness of the vines. The best use of trumpet creeper in our landscape so far is to disguise the tornado shelter. The trumpet creeper absolutely buries the shelter under its lush green foliage, but I do have to be really consistent about trimming it back from the doorway or we can't get into the shelter when we need to.

Dawn

Someone sent me seeds for a white trumpet vine and I have been hesitant to plant it knowing what the native one does here. What do you think? It doesn't have a cultivar name on the pack.

Carol,

The only vine I've heard called white trumpet vine is Pandora Vine from Australia, which is a zone 9 plant, and I don't know if that is the one you received seed for. If it is that vine, it is Pandorea jasminoides and I have grown it, but not from seed. It is a gorgeous vine but was slow-growing for me. It is only reliably cold-hardy down to 20 or 25 degrees.

Dawn