Chamblees is also a good nursery that has older roses.

I think it is fair to say that I like all of my roses. Some do get spots, but that does not bother me.

I do not cut flowers and bring them inside because of family allergies. So I just enjoy them in the garden.

I prefer the larger blooms and I prefer the constant blooming, and so I don't grow hybrid perpetuals or miniatures.

I think I would say that my favorites are Cramoisi Superieur, Duchesse de Brabant, Monsieur Tillier, Souvenir de la Malmaison, and Penelope. I also like my Buck roses - Earthsong, Quietness, Prairie Breeze, and more. Truly I love them all.

Maryl and I both live in the same city, but Gemini did not do well for me. It could have been the location, or the origin of the rose. It could have been that I did something wrong, but I had two of them that really need spray. Possibly it was because there was so much black spot around.

Many people spray, but I chose to stop. My dear dear internet friends, and friends here choose to spray, and I have no problem with what they do. I stopped, and do not intend to start again.

When I get a chance to get back here, I will share with you this year's purchases. I am excited - I have 14 roses coming the third week in March.

Sammy

Hmm... I guess my last post didn't actually post, LOL! Here goes again, but forgive me if it's a repeat...

Sammy,

Is there a size difference in the plants from ARE and Chamblees? Chamblees is considerably less expensive... Also, have you ordered from Petals from the Past or Niche Gardens?

Ada

Chamblees roses are considerably smaller than those of ARE. Some people have made negative comments from time to time about both nurseries. I often feel that the larger rose will get off to a better start, but some of my most beautiful roses have come from Chamblees. I think (my opinion) that Chamblees is a season behind ARE.

I also think that Chamblees is selling fewer antique roses every year, and is concentrating on Buck and David Austin.

I have never heard of Petals from the Past or Niche Gardens.

Many nurseries like Ashdown charge quite a bit for shipping.

Many people like Vintage, and they have a great reputation. I have always been turned off by the word "bands" until someone told me how to see what they are. They are almost the size of Chamblees. I might consider them in the future.

I think two of us posted almost simultaneously. Perhaps your post is before mine.

Sammy

I'm not the only one who's interested in Hybrid Tea style blooms with excellent disease resistance. The LSU Ag center and Texas Afgilife Extension Service will begin a joint 4 year trial on HT's starting in late 2009. HT's are the thoroughbreeds of the rose world so some of their intended restrictions make me shiver (eg: no fertilizer after the first year). However they will spray fungicides (NOT insecticides) 5 times a year, which will be very interesting for those of us who do spray but want to minimize it as much as we can. If the spray is applied just at the right time and to already very disease resistant HT's there may be more winners then first expected.....I also want to say that most roses may develop some degree of B.S. in the south if unsprayed; but what most people object to is not a few spots but major defoliation. If you can tolerate some ratty looking leaves, a person might get by with very little spraying (or none). Even the supposed miracle rose Knock-out has been reported to get some Black spot in the south. I can't say which HT's are disease free (if any of them are) because I attempt to keep mine clean, but some times life interfers with my spray schedule. It's during these times, if it's prime disease season, that I determine which roses have above average disease resistance (Secret, Lady Mitchell, Our Lady of Guadalupe for example)with only minor spotting if any at all............Gardening is always about options and trail and error. That's what makes it interesting. No spray, some spray, exhibitors fog of spray, it's all up to the individual gardener.........peace

There are many variables when it comes to diseases. I had two Veterans' Honors - one on either side of a large bed of red roses. One could not tolerate a no spray garden, and the other seems to be fine. When we sprayed, we sprayed them equally. Everything about the two roses was probably equal, yet one defolitated, and became quite diseased.

Rina Hugo stood alone in her own majestic spot in the back yard. She got very little black spot. Now I have moved her to the front, and hope that she continues to be black spot free.

The Cottage rose (David Austin) seemed to be ok, but most of my Austins had to be removed.

To spray 270 roses meant to fill a heavy tank 3 times, wear a respirator (rubber mask), goggles, rubber boots, rubber gloves, and long sleeves and pants. Each year when I heard how safe the sprays were, I would call Ortho and ask. They would put a chemist on the phone who would explain how important it is to suit up --- for fungicide, not even insecticides. The tank is too heavy, and the gear is unnatural.

Many many people love the newer roses. I love the garden filled with older roses. They give me a connection with my ancestors, and satisfy my love for nature. Before I really began grower the Antique roses, I had many modern ones. Once, I stood and looked at my garden, and thought -- red,yellow, white, peach, multi colored, but all the same. They were pretty, but I lost the interest I once had and fell in love with the older ones.

If I were to exhibit, growing the older ones would be impossible. Now every year I get more and more cardinals. And never again will I wonder if my dog's untimely death was due to spray.

After work I will try to share with you the names of my new 14 roses. I hope they are as beautiful as I expect.

Sammy

I remembered another rose, a shrub, that did really well last year - "Lady Elsie May." It's a modern cultivar, but performed really well. Gorgeous medium-sized, medium-pink blooms all summer and lovely, dark green foliage. It also appears to be cold hardy.

Disease resistance is indeed impacted by many factors, including soil composition. I've found that having soil with lots of organic matter, the same thing necessary to successful organic vegetable growing, is essential to support the roses that tend toward disease resistance. They also need sufficient water and most need to not be in a crowded environment. That said, not all roses are created equal, and many are disease resistant without the need for toxic sprays.

After doing tons of research on environmental issues (I'm heading into a doctoral program on the intersection of faith and environmental policy and ethics...so I obviously have a very particular slant!), I came to the conclusion that the best scientific research out there overwhelmingly indicates that insecticides, pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides cause lasting harm to the environment and pose serious health issues to all biotic life. Like Sammy said, when the staff chemist has to tell you to wear full protective gear, it can't be all that "safe", LOL! They are finding that chemicals that supposedly break down really don't - they pollute ground water and harm pollinators, not to mention pets and people who absorb them in passing. For me, it's just not worth growing anything that won't thrive without these chemicals.

Sammy,
When we moved to our last place the gentleman that lived there before had fastidiously sprayed his lawn and shrubs. And, the people next to us always sprayed their field. There were very few birds around, and next to know butterflies, moths, or bees. We never sprayed, and after the neighbors lost a family member to cancer, they opted to stop spraying. Within a short time, the wildlife began returning...a few years later we had tons of birds of many species, and even the pollinators were returning.

I'm excited to see your list when you get a chance. I'll post mine when we finally make our selections. :-)

Ada

Ada,

Your point on the dangers of chemical usage are good ones.

We had a very severe grasshopper infestation here several years ago and the local farmers/ranchers sprayed chemicals like mad. They sprayed repeatedly because most chemicals are not very effective at killing large grasshoppers, and only marginally effective at killing them in their younger instars. We still had tons of grasshopppers, but all the bluebirds, which had been very plentiful here, completely disappeared. It was three years before we began seeing bluebirds again and the bluebird population still has not returned to the earlier level.

We live in an area that was once almost entirely agricultural and still has a lot of agriculture but is now becoming more of a ranching area than a farming area. One of my "old farmer" neighbors gave me tons of grief about my organic practices. After he'd watched my veggie garden for a couple of years though, and saw the yields I was getting, he quit giving me a hard time and began adopting some organic practices himself.

My "old farmer" neighbor often mentions to me that "old Mr. Smith" or whomever, a long-time local farmer, has been diagnosed with cancer and that he (my neighbor) believes it was caused by the heavy use of agricultural chemicals for decades. This happens over and over again. Whenever we discuss it, my old farmer friend gets tears in his eyes and tells me "we just sprayed what they told us to spray--we didn't know it would kill us all". I hardly know what to say to comfort him at times like that. Are the farm chemicals to blame for all the cancer deaths? We do not know that for sure because cancer is complicated and seems to result from a combination of many factors of which chemical exposure is but one. My old farmer friend is convinced though. As a cancer survivor myself (almost ten years!), though, I am very leery of chemical exposure and choose to be as organic as possible.

And, by the way, studies show that chemical pesticide use tends to lead to higher, not lower, numbers of pests so spraying pesticides, especially broad-spectrum ones, can be counter-productive. I haven't used a chemical pesticide on this property in the 10 years we've been here, except for a chemical fire-ant killer, and I wouldn't have used it if I absolutely didn't have to. I don't even use organic pesticides very often, but when I do, I try to use one that is a narrow spectrum pesticide that targets only the pest I want to kill---like, for instance, using Nolo Bait for Grasshoppers.

Everyone has to decide for themselves, of course, whether to use chemical fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, etc., and I don't fault anyone for doing what they believe is best for them in their situation. I gardened in the traditional, chemical-heavy way during my childhood years and very early adult years. I've gardening 95% organically for the last couple of decades. For me, organic is best but other people may have found the opposite to be true for them.

Dawn

Those that will be coming in the 3rd week of March are:

Etoile de Lyon (tea) yellow
Bubble Bath ( hybrid musk) light pink
Miss Caroline (tea, sport of Duchesse de Brabant)light pink
Rosette Delizy (tea) yellow
Madame Antoine Rebe (tea) red
Beaute Inconstante (tea noisette) Orange
Rival de Paestum (china) white
Nur Mahal (hybrid musk) crimson
Alister Stella Gray (tea noisette climber) yellow
2 Ducher (china) white
Carnation (Bermuda china) medium pink
G. Nabonnand (tea )
Beauty of Rosemawr (china) carmine(looks like pink to me)

I have asked about these and have been receiving recommendation on the Antique Rose Forum for months. I have high hopes that these roses will be disease resistant, and will blooms constantly.

Right now it is driving me crazy trying to clean the yard. I cannot prune very fast, and must put all the clippings in a bag. Yesterday I think I worked for about 3 hours on just 3 of my 11 Knock Outs. I sort of like Knock Outs, but do get tired of them. I also resent them because of their reputation, one would never think that they have such die back. I must cut some of the canes all the way to the ground. And much of that bed is just a bunch of canes a foot or so high. They do grow fast, but none of my other roses have to be cut like that every single year.

I am glad you started this thread, Ada, and Dawn, I did not know about your experiences either.

Sammy

Dawn,

Great points about the increase in pest populations and the subsequent decline of wild life due to spray. Not only that, but pests develop a resistance to many chemicals since they genetically "evolve" much more quickly than the rest of us! So, in fact, we're creating "super bugs" when our whole aim is to get rid of them. A frustrating situation...

What tops it for me, I think, is that so many chemicals were once thought completely safe and have now been shown to be incredibly dangerous - look at DDT. Anyway, I much prefer to devote my time to helping the plants be strong enough internally to fend of pests and come up with alternative means of protecting against infestation, since, all other issues aside (and there are plenty of them) we seem to be fighting a loosing battle with synthetic chemicals...

In the last place I lived, the one with the property owner who passed away from cancer, the whole area was situated in an agricultural valley. They had constant air inversions in the area - I had a terrible time with allergies, and Mom had severe asthma - both our symptoms would all but disappear each time we took a day trip out of the valley. The area also had an incredibly high rate of cancer for such a small community - the locals called it "death valley" - it all seems a bit too coincidental to not be linked in some way with the high use of chemical sprays for agricultural purposes... Truly sad. I think your old farmer friend could relate...

Sammy,

Thanks for your list. Mom and I are still going through your recommendations and catalogs. Last night she found her way to the Antique Roses forum and got even more ideas! It's almost overwhelming...now we just have to sort through according to budget, LOL!

Will you let us know how these roses perform for you this season?

I haven't had much die out on my knockouts... Maybe it's my micro-climate, but they look to me like I can just whack them back a bit and they'll be fine...1/2 hour project at tops for 3 of them... Sorry you have so much work to put into yours!

Ada

I'm coming in late, as usual :) As Sammy is much more knowledgeable than I, but I thought you might like a few pictures. I order from Chamblees and have been very happy with them.

I live in OKC, I grow all my plants in mixed borders and I rarely if ever spray anything but bermuda grass killer. ...and apparently grass hoppers find my property to be very comfy, cause I have proof...and they feel very comfortable telling me to give them privacy :) lol

Here's the roses:

I think this is Archduke Charles:

{{gwi:321278}}

The Fairy

Maggie:

{{gwi:321279}}

I have other antique roses, but they haven't settled in enough to give me good pictures.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lisa's Garden

Lisa,

Thanks for the photographs! They're great - especially your garden crew, though the roses are gorgeous too, LOL! I LOVE the Fairy when she's happy...and I personally haven't grown one that has not been happy. Do you generally like antique roses? Have some favorites?

I see by your "photo-bucket" that you also like peonies... Me too! Do you have favorites? How do they do in Oklahoma? Do they take full, hot sun, or do they need some protection? I love the old fashioned, cottage garden feel - it's so romantic without being overly sentimental, LOL!

It's good to hear so many positive things about Chamblees, especially since I haven't found anyone nearby that sells good-looking antique roses. I live in Shawnee and drive into OKC all the time (graduate school), but haven't located a good rose nursery yet...

I'm still deciding on my rose order this year... There are so many I'd like to grow, and since this is a new place for us, I could easily go nuts! But, there's lots of landscaping to do, so I'm focusing on a few locations (one area needs a really tall shrub rose, and I'm putting in a line of climbers along our fence on metal arbors) and proven roses that don't need sprayed to be gorgeous!

Glad you joined the discussion, Lisa!

Ada

My work has become so busy, and I have so much to say.

Ada, My Knock Out roses are sneaky. Mine look ok, and are about 6 feet tall - all of them. But when I look at the canes, the lower ones do not look good. The growth at the top is great, and there is no problem with the pith of the canes. If left alone, the first bloom will be fine since it carries over strength from the fall. But the next bloom will be weak and the roses will not look good. At this time as I look at the canes, I see that they have dark marks that do not belong there. Instead of looking at the top growth, If I cut the large canes back at about 2 feet, the pith is rust colored. It also could have a hole forming, or look very bad. I always cut back to good pith.

My other roses do not do this, it is mainly the Knock Outs. Others have also made this observation, but I usually don't talk much about them because if I had the money I would replace them for a variety that I like more. From a distance they are ok, but up close, they do not have the style of my other roses.

I hope she likes the Antique Rose Forum, but don't forget about this one either. LOL

Lisa, welcome back. Your Archduke Charles looks just like the catalog. Mine have the combination on the individual blooms, but I often see your combination also. I have 3 Maggies, and The Fairy, but my The Fairy is on the downward slope of a hill behind my giant penelope. I have to go down the hill to see it. I am trying to put in steps, and make the hillside more friendly, but my rose is not nearly as pretty as yours. I need to go down there with my fertilizer. Your roses are absolutely gorgeous. Are the tall ones in the vase delphiniums? I cannot grow delphiniums, but used to have many larkspurs until my husband gave some away. He thought they looked like weeds. (Unbelievable!)
If any of you have good answers for getting the weeds or bermuda out of beds that have seeds and bulbs, I would like to hear about it. I think I needs to water a lot, then just pull them out --- a huge chore that is.

Must get ready for work now.

Sammy

Sammy,

With the bermuda grass, the answer is to pack up and move someplace that bermuda will not grow.

If that is not an option, use a trowel and dig it out instead of pulling it out so you can ensure you don't leave any stolon or root behind that will resprout.

Or, if disturbing the soil by hand-digging might disturb your bulbs or seeds too much, buy a glyphosate product like Round-Up and use a little foam craft brush to brush it onto the grass. Using the brush instead of spraying helps prevent spray from drifting onto desirable plants and killing them. It is almost impossible to keep bermuda grass out of cultivated beds without sometimes resorting to the use of Round-up.

There are also some Over-The-Top weedkillers (Ornamec is one, but there are others that have the same active ingredient) that will kill grasses in ornamental beds without damaging your other plants (at least, theoretically), but I don't use them so I can't tell you how effective they are.

Dawn

Sammy, I can't go delphs either. I wish I could. Those are larkspur.

Thanks, my The Fairy looks that good because I absolutely butchered it a few years ago :) ...and we had a rainy spring. I love it, but every time I have to deal with it I look like I've been caught in a cat fight. Those thorns are just vicious.

I use the "over the top" bermuda killer, but in the Ortho brand. I like it for places where it is difficult to pull all the grass (iris beds!). It's slow, but it does work.

Lisa

Lisa,

What a gorgeous bouquet! I love picking for bouquets too, though this will be the first year in a while that I'll be growing the kind of things that make a decent bouquet.

I'll have to give peonies a try - they are so lovely. And, thanks to the size of this lot, and the variation of light levels, I should easily be able to find a good location.

I vaguely remember The Fairy's thorns...haven't grown it in a few years. It was pretty prickly. I think the thorniest rose I've grown was a white meideland...it was unstoppable as a ground cover, but the thorns were awful!

How has your Duchess de Brabant done for you? It's so gorgeous...

Sammy,
I haven't had this issue with Knockouts, BUT this will only be their second season for me, so we'll see... Hopefully the good traits will far outweigh the bad! And, I agree they don't have the same charm or lovely form as the old roses. The reason I decided to grow them has strictly to do with their drought and disease tolerance, and the fact that they bloom all season. I have an area along the street front of my house that I'm going to put them in in a xeriscape mixed border, but the areas that need showstoppers will definitely get the heirlooms, etc.

As for bermuda grass, I agree with Dawn (LOL, the moving line was great!) - the only way I keep it "under control" is by digging it out and getting as much root out as possible. I haven't tried RoundUp on it because I haven't needed to...yet! We've dug our beds out by diligently taking all the bermuda out (the soil is nice and soft) and shaking the roots to get off excess soil, but we'll probably still have some trouble, so after fully amending the soil, we're putting weed cloth down, then we'll cut holes in it where we need to plant and mulch once the planting is done. Hopefully that will take care of it... (yeah, I know, "good luck"!)

:-) Ada

Ada,

How nice that you have nice, soft soil. It is so much easier to remove bermuda from soft soil. Folks who have hard clay or rocky, caliche soil can't pull the grass out because only the above ground portion comes out. If the clay is dry, you can't even get a trowel into the ground to dig it out.....so you have to soak down the clay thoroughly and then let it dry to a certain point and then dig out the bermuda. That leads me back to my standard "Bermuda grass is evil" line. LOL

Lisa,

Your flowers always look so lovely.

Thanks for mentioning that over-the-top stuff is slow and I'd like to add that repeat applications are often needed and some plants will die if sprayed with an over-the-top herbicide, so you have to read the label and make sure your desirable plants are "immune" to it.

Sammy,

Oops. I mis-typed the active ingredient in Round-up. It is glysophate, not glyphosate. : )

And, y'all, I don't know if it is still in print, but Mike Shoup wrote a book about roses for the south about the same time we moved up here, or a little thereafter. I think it was called ROSES FOR THE SOUTHERN GARDEN and it had gorgeous photos.

Dawn

Dawn, thanks...you know I never miss a chance to show them off...ya'll are so appreciative :) plus, I never show the bad ones! It's amazing how all of my pictures seem to be dated in May :)

Ada my Duchesse de Brabant hasn't really taken off yet. They've been in the ground only one or two seasons. I'd have to go look. I think it's two. Anyway I'm hoping this year to see some GROWTH!!! I need to get back in that bed and look at the tags again and then make a map. Once they take off I won't be able to access the names anymore!

Lisa

OKAY!! We finally placed the rose orders! (from Chamblees and ARE). Based on all sorts of recommendations we decided on the following:

New Dawn (had to have it again since it's been fabulous)
Dortmund (same as above)
Duchesse de Brabant
Allister Stella Gray
Mrs. Dudley Cross
Comtesse du Cayla
Earth Song
Souvenir de la Malmaison, cl.
Spice
Moonlight
Cl. Pinkie
Lafter
Reve d'Or
Crepuscule
Sarah van Fleet
Rosette Delizy
Knockout, yellow

These are all supposed to fit the bill of hardy, relatively vigorous roses resistant to black spot, rust, mildew, etc. Most are antique roses (though not all), some climbers, some large shrubs. I will take copious notes this year, but won't know how well they fit the bill for a few seasons... I'm excited!!

Dawn,

I feel truly blessed with our soil. The last house had much harder, clay soil that was overrun with wild blackberries which could easily grow 30' if they had some trees nearby. We also had a type of weed, can't remember the name but I haven't seen it here yet, that was as bad as bermuda grass. Every time you tried to dig it out, it broke, and at each break it sent off multiple shoots, which would eventually choke the rest of the plants. We finally used a torch, which seemed to work...

The house before that had evidently been surrounded by gravel - we had to build a giant sieve, dig through the hard "soil," add a shovel full to the sieve and scrape away until only the gravel remained and then toss it...they whole yard, front and back! Then, we had to bring in soil from a local farmer since the level was too low after the sifting. It was a nightmare!

SO, this is a GREAT lot! We have some red clay, but even it is relatively soft. It seemed insurmountable when we started, in that we wanted to do way more than seemed possible, but it's gone so easily that we're making great progress.

Oh, and I looked for the book you mentioned. It is sadly out of print, though the last printing looks like it was 2000, and the used books on Amazon start at $40+... :-( Maybe they'll decide to reprint it pretty soon...(in paperback!)

:-) Ada

I just looked through yet another catalog, Edmund's Roses, and it looks really good for roses. It carries some climbers that were bred by the same breeder that developed knockouts, with the same disease-resistant characteristics. They have some really lovely choices with great features. I have purchased their roses before, a long time ago, and had good luck...hopefully they have kept the same quality. Anyway, here is the link to their website should any of y'all be interested!

:-) Ada

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose Grower

Ada NO No No Stop. Edmunds sold out a year or so ago to a place in Canada, I think. Maybe it is Parks, or maybe the people who own them. I don't think they have Edmunds roses. Does your catalog say where the roses are grown, or who owns them? The link you list does not have it.

I purchased many roses from Mr. Edmund before he sold the nursery. His roses needed spray.

I have not heard good reports of the company since it has been sold.

Sammy

Sammy,

It was J. W. Jung that bought Edmunds Roses back in 2006 or 2007, I think, which means Edmunds Roses now belongs to the growing Jung conglomerate which also owns Totally Tomatoes, Vermont Bean Seed Company, Seymour Select Seed, HPS, Roots and Rhizomes, McClure and Zimmerman, R. H. Shumway and (of course) J. W. Jung Seed Co.

Since Edmunds Roses was sold to Jung, I've heard the same types of reports you've heard.

Dawn

Sammy,

As I said in my post, I haven't used Edmund's Roses in a number of years. The original company was located near my area in the PNW and we purchased a number of roses from him, none of which needed sprayed. Unless they come from the grower diseased, which they didn't in this case, the need for spray depends upon the variety, it's qualities and the location in which it is grown anyway.

As far as their current reputation, the GW (the place we can't actually mention on this site!) gives them mostly positive ratings with only a couple of negatives (2 out of 65), so it would appear as safe as any of the other recommended companies.

They're roses are grown out of California, according to the printed catalog.

Ada

I grow many many roses, but have less expertise than most other posters since I take on too much, and have difficulty keeping up with it.

Mr. Edmund was a super nice person. I called him the first time I planted his roses because I thought I was losing my mind. His recommendation was to actually bury the rose so that the roots would get off to a good start. They came bare root, and I was to plant them, then continue to build up the soil over them until the rose could not be seen. Within a two week period, as I watered them, the soil would come off, and the tops of the roses could begin to grow.

Most of the roses I bought from him could not take Oklahoma black spot. I have saved two Nicoles, and hope to keep them. My Dublin are gone, and I think his were the Betty Boops, the Eye Paints, and Livin Easy. Livin Easy got RRD, and I pulled out the others because I thought it was spreading, and I didn't like Eye Paint. The roses were strong. RRD attacks where it wishes.

Dawn, I am always amazed at your knowledge. What surprises me is that the other companies that the Jung Co. owns seem to have a good reputation.

Ada, I belong to many sites including the one we don't discuss. I think their reputation seems to be good, and it might be worth a try if you haven't heard the negative.

Sammy

I grew Livin' Easy the last time I lived in Oklahoma and it didn't get anything, but you know what they say, "location, location, location!" It evidently liked its placement and my micro-climate. It's supposed to be mildew resistant... At the same time, I've found that most roses equipped to stand up to Oklahoma heat and humidity (or the total lack of humidity, depending on the year) are old roses (or their sports), not modern cultivars with some exceptions. That was why I was excited to see the breeder of knockouts has developed climbers. I'm on the fence on whether or not I'll order them this year, but knockouts have done well for me, so they are probably a good bet. Actually, the campus where I am doing my graduate work has landscaped with knockouts and they are fantastic there as well. So, we'll see...

Ada

Sammy,

Jung is one of my favorite seed companies, and I have watched as they have expanded over the last few years, gobbling up company after company after company. Because I purchase seeds from several of their firms (Totally Tomatoes, Vermont Bean Seed Co., Seymours Select Seed and J. W. Jung), I am on their mailing list and get all their catalogs....that's one way I keep up with all their acquisitions.

I like J. W. Jung a lot, but I think they completely mismanaged Edmunds in 2007, which is when internet gardening sites erupted with complaints from unhappy customers. Once you've messed up that badly, it is hard to recover.

Ada,

There may not be a lot of complaints on that site, but there are plenty elsewhere. It does seem like Edmunds did better in 2008 than in 2007, so hopefully they can rebuild their reputation.

Dawn

Dawn,

What other sources? Are there other GW-type sites? If so, I'd like to know about them for research purposes in the future! (If you can't tell me here, maybe you could send me an email?) It would be interesting to know if the complaints were customer service related, or product quality concerns...

The only complaints on gw did take place in 2007, and had more to do with customer service than product quality. The company's response to the complaints wasn't any worse than a number of seed companies with whom I've dealt (sadly). But, by 2008 all of the reviews were positive. So, evidently they cleaned up their act, at least according to that site - but, if you have other sources of information, please let me know. :-)

Ada

Ada,

There are many other gardening sites but I don't visit them although sometimes a google search on a topic will pull up pages from those sites. So, if you google I am sure you could find them. I know that some of the folks here visit more than one on-line group and I've been invited to visit some of them myself, but I just don't have time to hop all over the internet so I stay here in this one place.

I can't sit here and tell you who was unhappy with this company after the sale to JWJ, or remember where I read it in 2007, but there was quite a lot of buzz about it at the time. I didn't even know Edmunds Roses had changed hands, until folks online started making comments on how it was at that time compared to previous years.

As near as I can remember, it was both product and service (or lack or such). Sammy might remember the issues better than I do since she has a lot of roses whereas I am in the process of taking mine out and don't follow the rose news any more. The kinds of complaints that were being made are not uncommon, nor are they limited to this specific firm, especially after a merger or acquisition. I remember that there were a lot of comments on Stark Bros. after their troubles a few years ago, but that seems to be well in the past as they did turn the situation around

I just wanted to point out that the other site isn't the only indicator of what is going on with one particular company or another. It is just one place. What you find at any site will vary depending on its' members/users, and you never know who may have a hidden agenda or an axe to grind or whatever. I have found, though, that when a lot of people are expressing unhappiness with a firm, there generally is a reason for it....you know, where there's smoke, there's fire.

Dawn

You can do a search on this site, and indicate the "entire site" to find out what people say. I found one, and copied it here, then deleted it. Since I only want older roses, and do not intend to spray, I do not want to quote what others are saying about modern roses wherever they are.

One of the nurseries that has a rather average or below average rating in the opinions of many posters is the sponsor or former sponsor of the GW. It is Hortico. However, some people are satisfied with it.

I think you should order from anyone you want to order from, and get your own opinion. I have been growing roses for 40 years, and have been on here for about 10. As the years have passed I have developed close friendships, and have become familiar with rose growers who think like I do, I have come to listen to some posters more than others. I don't want to exhibit or compete in any way. I want to do exactly what pleases me. This is my hobby. I teach in a high school, and cannot do as I please, but I can do as I please in my own garden.

I think you should also do as you please, and since this is an academic major for you, you should be much more thorough than I have ever been. I remember that you love the leaves. I want color. So, I could be unhappy with a rose that you love, and you could think that a rose that I love either blows too fast or is gawdy.

Edmunds, J&P, and many others appeal to those who want the newest roses. I want an older garden that helps me connect with my past. I garner tremendous satisfation in thinking that my father or grandmothers may have admired a rose that I am admiring.

Must go.

Sammy

I've tried to have roses for thirty years and finally am successful. It took me a long time to figure out how important mulching is! I gave up on chemicals and use baking soda on the black spot (so far it has actually worked). My 'Jung' roses always die, even my most recent when everything else thrived. 'The Antique Rose Emporium' roses arrive in pots and are very healthy but the varieties I bought were very fragile and I couldn't keep them alive. The most beautiful rose I've ever seen is the "Audrey Hepburn" I bought locally. . . although (Finally) the roses I have now, are the healthiest I've ever had and going strong. I bought a selection of large climbing-hedge style roses from the David Austin Catalog. They are doing what I've always dreamed of, so I'm very happy! I added a summer bargain from Walmart in the 'almost dead' bunch out front, didn't expect them to make it. They both did, a "JFK and a "Medallion" - The Medallion is superb! I'd love to find more.

Welcome to the Oklahoma Forum.
Sometimes we need to get just the right rose to be successful. I am glad you found yours. There are some David Austin roses that do well for me without spraying, but I do need to be careful.

Sammy

Ok... being a complete dope about the yard, I have no idea what is growing on a trellis in my backyard. Of course it hasn't bloomed yet, so I can't be sure that it's even a rose bush, but I think it is. I don't necessarily need to identify the exact type of rose, unless that's going to predetermine how I tend to it. I just need some pointers on how to care for this. I think it's obviously a pretty addition to the yard when it blooms or it wouldn't be on a trellis.

Do I need to prune anything or do any work to this thing prior to blooming? If I knew how to get a dang pic on here I'd take one with my celly and post it, ugh!

The easiest way to post a pic on here is to use one of the free photo hosting companies. I use Photobucket, but there are others. You upload to there and then they provide an "html" link that you can copy and paste into the message box.

If you don't want to go to all that trouble, email the pic to me and I will be happy to post it for you.

Lisa

Ordering Update -

I received my roses today, from both Chamblees and Antique Rose Emporium. Chamblees, though smaller, look fantastic and ready to take off. Sadly, however, ARE's roses look terrible. Four of them are absolutely dreadful specimens, two are extremely questionable, and the other three are just average. Had I seen them in person I would never have purchased them. The biggest disappointment are the canes themselves - I realize that foliage won't necessarily look good after traveling in a box sent via UPS, LOL. BUT, the canes are spindly and sad, with very little substance to the plant (they don't even take enough pride in their stock to see that the pots are properly filled with soil - most barely have enough to support the size of plant they contain). They look like plants that will have to be thoroughly babied for a couple of years, even though I intentionally purchased varieties that are supposed to be tough as nails. This is my first order with them, and I placed it because they had such a great reputation... :-( It's sure to be my last! I thought I'd pass it on for any of you thinking of ordering. The roses I picked up at TLC looked worlds better, and I'm usually not all that thrilled at their rose stock.

I've emailed the company, and we'll see what they're made of! But, I guess I'll stick with Chamblees!

Ada

Well, I emailed ARE and they have offered to refund the four roses that are such bad starts; they also said to keep them anyway and plant them as they may turn into strong starts... It will probably take a number of years, but I'm pleased with their response.

By the way, for anyone in the OKC or surrounding areas, TLC has started carrying Chamblees roses, planting them probably last year in larger pots...and charging more, but they look great. Their head rose guy organically, so he's also able to recommend roses that stay healthy and vigorous here.

Happy planting!
Ada

Ada, thanks for letting us know! I'll have to drop by there. Do you know if they are carrying any of the antique roses?

Also, does anyone know how Buck roses do here?

Lisa

Lisa,

Yes, TLC is carrying antique roses - I think most of them are grown by Chamblees. They've got Perle d'Or, Duchesse de Brabant, Mme Antoine Mari, Souvenir de St. Annes, and Souvenir de la Mamaison (SDLM), plus at least 6 others I didn't buy (yet), LOL! They run around $25 each, but they look really healthy and are about 2-3 times the size of Chamblees mail order roses, if that makes a difference. (I'm getting ready to place another Chamblees order, but I couldn't pass these up!) It looks to me like the ones they carry are fairly hardy, and most of them are tagged as "EarthKind" roses, which means they should be pretty tough (it's an award out of the Texas A&M Agricultural Extension program that tests for drought tolerance and disease resistance, etc.). But, if you go, see if Pat is there, and he can tell you all about them. He also gardens organically, so if you don't want to spray he can also recommend varieties for that. Other than the roses from Chamblees, they have a few other antiques like the Fairy. And, they have some modern roses that appear to fit the bill of disease resistant without the use of spray...I'm trying Belinda's Dream this year on their recommendation.

As for Buck roses, this is my first year for them, and I've started with Earth Song which came highly recommended by someone on the Antique Rose forum here on GW. The start that came from Chamblee's just looks like it's ready to burst forth with vigorous growth. So, we'll see. You might call Chamblee's which is located in Texas since they have many Buck roses and ask their opinion...

Oh, and Pat told me that if any of the old roses do start getting black spot or powdery mildew, you can mix up a concoction of baking soda (1 tablespoon, if I remember right), water (1 qt), and a little vegetable oil (to help it adhere) and spray the infected areas. I haven't tried this, but he says it works well.

Have fun shopping for roses! (and let us know what you plant this year!)

:-) Ada

Here is a link that might be useful: Buck's Roses from Chamblee's

Ada, the antiques I have came from Chamblees. I actually made an effort to stop by there one summer because we were vacationing nearby. It was kind of exciting! I couldn't come home with any though because we were packed to the gills with luggage and a baby car seat!

Earth Song is one I have been interested in.

Thanks for the info!

Lisa

Lisa,

I'd love to visit some of the OGR nurseries! I'd have to drive a truck, though, in order to bring home all the new friends I'd surely fall in love with, LOL!

My updated list for this year's rose planting is:

Perle d'Or
Duchesse de Brabant
Mme Antoine Mari
Belinda's Dream
The Fairy
Climbing Pinkie
Crepuscule
Souvenir de St. Annes
Rosette Delizy
Lafter
Reve d'Or
SDLM
Comtesse du Cayla
Sarah van Fleet
New Dawn
Allister Stella Gray
Earth Song
Moonlight
Mrs. Dudley Cross
Spice
Knockouts: Sunny, Pink single-petal, Radrazz

No doubt I'll add more before the month is over! Some of them I have grown before, like New Dawn and The Fairy, but this is a new house with new conditions. Even though I have always grown roses, especially OGRs, I didn't think I'd ever grow the 200+ varieties that many rose gardeners talk about growing, but I also didn't think I'd start out with 20+ varieties just this season at my new home! I think I'm addicted... :-)

Ada

A lot of talk about not growing roses because they are high maintenance... my philosophy is to grow the easy ones! Just moved to OKC from Stillwater. There I had an enormous New Dawn that we didn't even water regularly... thousands of blooms. Grew a Zephirine Drouhin that was huge, scented and covered with magenta blossoms. Had a pillar version of a Graham Thomas with Ramona Clematis interplanted... beautiful butter yellow with pale blue "stars." No spraying, no fertilizer on these puppies. Normal watering. Now I have to start over in OKC (sniff)... we'll see how it goes. The real high-maintenance plants in OK are hydrangeas... but I love the color!

Here is a link that might be useful: New Dawn 2009

Wow, Ada, you are going to have quite the garden! I noticed yesterday that my OGRs are finally putting on some size. I might be able to see them this year :). The snow nipped back the fresh foliage a little, but I think they will be okay.

Lisa

Ada, I think it was you who mentioned planting "America"...did you? And if so, how did it do the first summer? I bought America, a Climbing Peace and Granada, which I think is not a climber. Reading online, it seems that America grows quite large, I hope this is true. I am still searching for a nice yellow climber that reminds me of grandma's. Hers was a single and I prefer a fuller blossom, but I just love yellow roses.
Good luck with your roses this summer!

Hi Everybody! Ive been away from the garden forum for a while finished my masters and just submitted my thesis which is also due to submit for publicationa busy year!

Anyway, back to ROSES! Mom and I planted a ton last year, mostly OGRs (old garden roses) and a few newer varieties. My criteria remain the same they have to be able to flourish in organic conditions. We pay lots of attention to the soil, they are planted with lots of care and organic material/fertilizer, and we give them lots of water the first year to help them get really established. But, there is little patience for black spot or powdery mildew in our garden and we are 100% organic a tall order!

Most of the roses we planted last year did well, with a few exceptions, but there were some that performed exceptionally well.

1. Climbing Pinkie a vigorous climber with smallish blooms (quarter to 50-cent size, depending on the time of year) of clear pink and lush dark green foliage. I covered at least an 8 foot section of fence last year. In fact, I had to cut back a number of canes that were encroaching on other plants/beds. We were so happy with her that we are putting in at least 3 more.

2. Earth Song a Dr. Griffith introduction that, planted side by side with a knockout, really gave the knockout a run for its money, both in terms of growth and blooming. Earth Song is a medium pink with good-size blooms that are really large in the cooler temps. The blossoms dont fade all that much in Oklahoma sun and it just bloomed its heart out all summer, reaching about 4-feet by the end of the season. Nice dark green foliage. Were putting at least one more in this season, and honestly it was probably our favorite rose all summer.

3. Lafter an old garden rose in apricot/pink shades. It didnt perform like Earth Song, but its completely wonderful! Reached over 4 feet the first season and bloomed regularly throughout the summer. One of my favorites.

4. Moonlight a lovely white climber. It didnt rival Climbing Pinkie, but it was planted close to a shade tree so it received less sunlight. Still, it covered at least a 6 foot portion of fence (possibly closer to 8). I love the delicate foliage and the small white flowers. A wonderful climber.

5. Carefree Sunshine a great yellow rose with large blossoms reached 4+feet by the end of the season and bloomed throughout the summer. We planted the yellow Knockout (Sunny), and though I liked it a lot, Carefree Sunshine definitely out performed the knockout.

6. Old Blush this thing went wild! It is a Spring and Fall bloomer, so it doesnt provide much summer color, but I like having a variety some roses that bloom all season, others that put on a one-time show, and some that only bloom when the weather cools off. Old Blush has great fine foliage and just keeps putting off canes. We are putting in an arbor for her, and its a good thing, because Im sure she could take over a 20ft. section of fencing if you let her. The blossoms are not my favorite shade, a little too bright pink with a mauve base, but some folks love that color. The blooms fade slightly in the sun to a more personally palatable rose-pink shade. We are putting in a couple more on a section a fence that we want some real coverage on.

7. Knockouts We planted pink single and double knockouts, sunny (yellow), and rainbow. Some were first year last season while it was the second for others. The pinks by far out perform the others, but I completely love Rainbow it ranks up in my top 5 favorites. I know there has been some discontent with Knockouts on this thread, but for our garden I cant say enough good about them, and I dont have a single complaint. They bloom from Spring through fall without stopping, the foliage stays looking great all season, and they need less water than the rest of the roses. They also do well in a bed with other perennials and annuals and dont seem to mind the close company. The only disease issues Ive seen has been with one of the Rainbows because it got crowded out by the more vigorous pink knockout and got some blackspot. I cut it back drastically this fall and it survived the harsh winter weather just fine were moving it to a suitable location. I havent had any issues with them and I have around 25 of them in my garden.

8. Alister Stella Gray I love this rose! It has the most amazing fragrance!! Its a noisette small yellow blossoms that fade to a creamy yellow in the sun. Its a fairly vigorous shrub rose, reaching at least 4 feet in a season, and blooms all summer. Dont be put off by the fading blooms because the fragrance is completely worth it!

9. Antoinette Mari a short-ish pink rose that needs some room. It didnt do much at first because we had some annuals crowding its space, but once we pulled them out in the fall, it just took off. Nice foliage and beautiful blossoms.

10. New Dawn not much needs to be said about New Dawn (thanks to Jean, the pics are awesomecant wait until mine is that large!). This is a great climber that needs plenty of room in order to do her thing (not that you cant crowd her a bit, but she can do so much with some space). Gorgeous mellow pink blooms.

11. Souvenir de St. Annes This lovely thing was planted in an area that, unknown to us, was a water path when the rains cameso she sat in water quite a bit, which didnt give her a fair chance for the summer, but by the time we cooled off a bit she just took off. Throughout the summer, she put forth loads of creamy pink blooms breathtaking!

Last year, we (by "we" I mean my mom and I!) ordered from Antique Rose Emporium and Chamblees, and purchased a number of them from TLC, and we bought some Knockouts from Lowes. I was very upset with the TLC roses they all had grub worms eating on the roots when we went to plant themneedless to say, we took them backneedless to say TLC was not very happy about it but they did refund our entire purchase. I was also really disappointed with the Antique Rose Emporium the starts we received looked just terrible! But, ARE did refund our order and asked us to plant them anyway because they were sure that they would do well. All of them eventually snapped out of it, though they were certainly stunted initially. Im not ordering from them unless I have to in the future, but they were honorable in how they handled my complaint. Chamblees, on the other hand, was great! The roses are very small when you receive them, and I was a bit trepedatious about that, but all of them took off and were every bit as large by the end of the season as the roses we planted from gallon+ containers. Chamblees is also very reasonably priced most of them are $8.95, less than half of ARE, and their shipping is pretty reasonable, especially if you order in the right incriments (for instance, a dozen roses ships cheaper per rose than does 14 roses per rose). I wish they had better pics on their website, but they are a great company to do business with in fact, its the only place we are ordering roses from this season and Im going to do my best to avoid buying them from the nurseries this year on a whim!

Anthrogirl78 I was thinking about America but didnt end up planting itat least not yethow did yours do? You might try the Alister Stella Gray if you are after a yellow rose, it doesnt have large flowers, and the yellow is a little more toward blush than daffodil yellow, but I read that it can get up to 12 feet tallto us it looks more like a 5x5, but its a great addition to the yellow clan!

Thanks for the good wishes, ladies! I am making a goal this year of taking photos of all the different roses so that I have a photo record of how they all did.

As for this year, were putting in a number of new roses here is a list from our first order of new varieties to our garden:
Wild Ginger
Jefferson Rose
La Marne
Gruss An Aachen
Mrs. Oakley Fisher
Distant Drums

Also, a number of the roses we grew last year just sort of sat there during the summer - they grew a bit, and didn't get any diseases, but neither did they flourish. However, as soon as we cooled off in September, they started going gang-busters. We had an amazing show of roses all fall - I had a full bouquet for Thanksgiving! They provided nice variety for us - even though they didn't like the heat, who can resist rose bouquets in the fall?!

Happy Rose growing everyone!!! I'll try to post some photos throughout the upcoming months...

:-) Ada

(PS: I posted the pic below from facebook, so hopefully you all can access it...speaking of which, don't you think it would be cool to have a facebook group based on this forum?)

Here is a link that might be useful: Roses for Thanksgiving

Hi Ada,
What an impressive post. I have grown so many of the same roses that you grow, but right now I don't have time to post.

What is your Masters in? Is it a form of agriculture?

I also grow old roses, and mainly purchase them from Chamblees and Antique Rose Emporium. I began in 1980, and had created a garden of up to 270. Then I decided that I did not want to spray, and have gone down and up in my count since then.

I don't know if you spray, but I hated to let go of Distant Drums. It simply did not do well for me without spray -- it wouldn't even grow leaves. Many of the Buck roses are like that. But if you can make New Dawn bloom more than a couple of time, possibly it will do well for you.

I had both of the Gruss roses, but they also needed spray. I do think that if I had allowed them to grow for a few years and not move them, they would have done better.

My favorites are Souvenir de la Malmaison and Cramoisi Superieur. And Mrs. B.R. Cant, and Ducher, Rival, Caldwell Pink ----- I must get to bed. And I like the Bermuda roses.

Sammy

Hi Sammy,

Distant Drums is a gamble for me - I am allowing myself one per season! I don't use any chemicals, occasionally we use neem or some other form of organic spray when needed. We'll see what it does - I fell in love with the photograph and at $9 it was worth the risk, lol!

We planted an SDLM last year, but neither was in an ideal location, so it didn't do much - we're moving it to give it a better shot. The blossoms are incredible. And, I want to put in a Cramoisi Superieur even though I usually don't plant anything that dark in color, but, if it's the one I am thinking of, the fragrance is amazing...

Do post your list - I will update as things unveil this summer (or as I remember more, lol!).

And, my Masters is in religion. The manuscript that I am submitting for publication explores the Gospel of John from an ecological perspective...not entirely removed from gardening. ;-)

Ada

I just received my Chamblees order - 1 dozen roses and they look fabulous! Great job packing, strong healthy plants...they look like they'll take right off! Now if the wind would give us a break... :-)

I absolutely LOVE my roses! Dee Dee (double delight) is a beautiful old gal that produces the prettiest red and white flowers, but they are more and more red as time goes on! Judy (judy garland tree rose) has had a rough start and I thought she was a goner.. but I was pleasantly surprised to find that she is back this year and hopefully she will be strong enough to produce! Coral was a cheap wal-mart variety but she is very hearty. I have a few climbers and a couple others as well. (yes, I name them and talk to them and treat them good, in return they provide me with beautiful, fragrant flowers!)
I too am struggling with black spot and would love to hear of some safe treatments.. I'll take the time if I know what to do!

I am hoping to expand my rose collection as funds allow. I have only been gardening and growing my roses for a few years now and have a lot to learn! Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Lazyacres,

I think it's great you name all your roses, and I'm fairly convinced that talking to them is part of what makes them thrive!

Blackspot is a tough one, especially if you don't want to use chemicals. We are 100% organic in our garden, and we have little tolerance for blackspot and powdery mildew. It can be avoided somewhat by some basic tips that we go by to grow healthy roses.

1. It all starts with the soil - if you have healthy, nutritious soil, then the plants get what they need to thrive and, consequently, have the ability to defend themselves against pests and diseases. It's sort of like an immune system - beef up the system and one can face all kinds of adversity. We use lots of organic matter and organic additives that help increase healthy microbes in the soil - it's a system like any other and it needs support, especially when we are constantly asking so much of it. We put plants in that take nutrients from the soil - it only makes sense to give back to it so that the cycle can continue. One of our favorite things to add is called "Yum Yum Mix" - it's excellent when planting a new plant, and we also use organic rose food from Soil Menders.

2. Choose your varieties with care. Not all roses are created equal - some are absolutely gorgeous, but their hybridization makes them very susceptible to diseases. So, when choosing your roses, as easy as it is to fall in love and just purchase one on the spot, if you don't want trouble with diseases like blackspot, do your research and plant varieties that are noted for their disease resistance. (My mother would laugh at me saying this since I'm guilty every year of bringing someone home from the nursery because I fell in love - plants that is!) I've listed some earlier, as have others, that you can refer to, and if you are looking for something in particular, feel free to ask. Also, there is an old garden rose forum here, and you can ask them. Be aware, however, that in order to grow roses in our region, it has to be pretty stout. I could grow things in Oregon that are completely wimpy here, but we have plenty to choose from, so no worries! You might try a knockout rose as they are easy to find at places like Lowes. And, also Chamblees online is a great resource. They will state if something is especially disease resistant, and their prices are incredibly reasonable - most are around $8.95 plus shipping (depending on how much you order it runs between $2.50 and $4 each).

3. Don't plant too close together. With a few exceptions (like knockouts), roses need breathing room, otherwise the close quarters will create too much humidity and create an ideal circumstance for powdery mildew or blackspot. Not only that, roses that are crowded usually don't perform nearly as well as they are capable. We had a couple this last season that were crowded by annuals, and once we pulled the annuals out at the end of the season, the roses took off.

4. Give them plenty of water when getting them established. For newer roses, this can mean the first year. For Old Garden varieties, they may need a couple of years of plenty of water - once established many are pretty drought resistant, but the initial adjustment period is crucial. Also, make sure you water at the base of the plant and not overhead, otherwise you increase the likelihood of blackspot.

As for treatments, to be honest, I had very little trouble last year. The few that succumbed to blackspot were treated with a NEEM oil spray - it was somewhat successful, and I think that it would have worked better if I had used it as soon as I spotted it. The few old garden roses that got blackspot came out of it and were fine, the other two got moved to the back of the property (needless to say, they were my impulse purchases!). I plan on trying some other recipes for foliar health and will post any relevant findings.

Those are just some basic tips, and you may already know all of them! Happy rose growing and let us know how it goes!!

Ada

I intend to post very soon, but I agree with you completely. Feel free to ask me about a rose if you question whether it will grow here. I really think I have discarded somewhere between 100 and 200. Buck roses may be winter hardy, but not Oklahoma black spot hardy. I can grow a few, but most are gone.

Paul Zimmerman from Ashdown says that he thinks using any product on the leaves of the roses will weaken its ability to fight off a fungus.

This has turned out to be my worst year ever for roses. Many plants looked ok, but now they are dying - or almost dead.

I like Chamblees and Antique Rose Emporium.

Ada your information is really good. I wish I had more time now, but with roses and tomatoes, I have no time.

Sammy

Thanks so much for the info!
I have been winging it with my roses, getting information from the internet mostly, but it is great to find "Locals" since growing roses here is FAR different than growing them in my native Southern California.

We have 5 acres, so my roses are pretty spread out with plenty of room, and I am building more raised beds as my roses have all been gifts from my husband, but I am looking for a couple more this season. Im attempting a couple of herb beds and I believe I will put a rose bush in each one.

We are thankfully in a valley close to a lake, so we dont get the damaging winds as often and the plants get watered regularly.

Need to run, but I will be back!
SMILE
Robin