Scott,

Most seeds are produced in China and other nations where costs are lower. There are very, very few companies that sell only USA-produced seed. Sandhill Preservation Center is one of them, but Glenn specializes in heirlooms, not hybrids. I think he sells only seed raised there at his place. Unfortunately, most seed companies are now multinational and produce where the costs are lowest. Earlier, Brandy Boy was on the website. You might want to check the website of The Cook's Garden because it had seeds and plants of Brandy Boy as recently as last week.

There have been a lot of seed germination problems this year, so it may be that Burpee's imported Brandy Boy seed failed the germination tests and they will not sell it. Several other firms have had some seeds failing germination tests this year, including the highly-touted WOW from Fedco seeds, which was abruptly pulled off the market about the same time everyone was sending in orders for it.

Scott, if you need some Brandy Boy seeds for this year, e-mail me and I can send you a few. I don't have very many, but I'll share what I do have with you. You and I may have to start saving BB seeds for our own use if the seed is this hard to find. It might not be hard to dehybridize it for our own use. I'll check around and see if anyone has tried to dehybridize it for personal use.

And, by the way, not only are most seeds imported now, but also much of the actual plant breeding is going on outside the USA.

Other than a massive seed crop failure or germination test failure, I cannot imagine Burpee would pull BB off the market. It is their most successful introduction of the last decade and they desperately need it. On the other hand, a very cynical person MIGHT think they could have pulled it in order to force us to try some of their 2009 introductions.....not that I am implying I think they would do that.

Dawn

Just for interest's sake. Sandhill Preservation Center produces most of it's own seed. But there are two exceptions. One, is that some of the more common cultivars, say, if they sold Detroit Dark Red beets, those might be purchased from some other source. Secondly, they have a growing network of volunteers who grow things out for them and thus help lighten the load. All the volunteers I know of are in the USA.

George

I, too, noticed they weren't offering Brandy Boy this year, so I contacted Burpee and the representative said they hoped to have the seeds in by mid-February. By the next day, they showed up on their website so I ordered them and haven't heard anything about them being backordered. The order should be here pretty soon, and I'll know for sure then.

I also checked the usual places for Burpee seeds like Walmart, Lowe's and K-Mart, but no one had them. Actually, the amount of seeds they are carrying is drastically reduced around here...

I'll post another reply when/if they make it here.

Hope this helps!
Ada

Ada,

I think this is the first year since we moved here that you can't find Burpee seed at Wal-Mart--all ours has in Ferry-Morse. Our local Home Depot (30 miles south of us in Texas) and our local Lowe's (about 20 miles north of us in Ardmore) both have Burpee Seeds, but they have a lot of odd varieties that I'm not familiar with. So, I think something is definitely going on with them, but who knows what it is.

I looked at my two previous packs of Brandy Boy seed and the one purchased in 2006 was produced in Thailand while the one purchased in 2007 was produced in the U.S.A.

Every year I purchase less and less seed in retail stores and more and more on the web--and I tend to order pretty early so I can get what I want before it sells out and goes on backorder as they await another shipment. This year, though, it has been hard to order because a lot of seed companies have been slow to receive their 2009 seeds, and you can't get it if they don't have it. Finally, though, all my seed orders but one have arrived.

I did notice the stores here got their seed potatoes in last week or this week, and I've bought mine in plenty of time to pre-sprout them before planting.

Dawn

I would never have guessed that we import so many seeds.

I did see Brandy Boy a week or two ago on the Burpee site. Now it says something like "not currently available". If I had found a couple of other ones to order from them, I would have ordered the BB there.

I guess I will try the place in TN that a couple of you guys mentioned last week. They still have them listed.

Generally I have decided to just get most of mine as plants locally in March since the Bixby places have such great selections, but for ones such as Brandy Boy and a few others, I have to start them from seed.

I have seen the same seeds at WM, HD, Lowes, etc., that you guys are seeing.

Dawn,

I thought the seed selection in the stores was really weird as well; Walmart here in Shawnee is only stocking Ferry Morse, and K-Mart's selection of Burpee is pitiful - I'm sure grateful for the catalog companies, especially the ones I was not familiar with that you all have shared. I placed my orders a little later than I would have liked since I sent away for the catalogs in January, but about half are already here. I don't think I'll even bother looking in the stores next year.

Actually, I just got Baker Creek's in the mail - ooh la la!, it's wonderful! Even though I already ordered most of my seeds (from about 10 different companies, LOL), I think I'll order a few things from them.

Glad to know about potatoes - I'll check my feed store and see if they've gotten any in.

Scott,

I wish Shawnee carried varieties of veggies that do well here, but no one does - you would think it would be more productive for them to stock recommended varieties, but maybe they can't get them from the growers.

Let us know if you find someone who actually has Brandy Boy - hopefully my Burpee order will include it.

Ada

Scott,

You do have a really great plant selection in your area, so I'm guessing you have a lot of agricultural interests there?

And the outsourcing of seeds has been going on a long time, and has especially escalated in the last 10-15 years. To me, that seems like poor food security. In the same way that the OPEC nations can raise prices to suit themselves (and what would we do--refuse to purchase oil?), a few nations that are major seed producers could conspire to jack up seed prices at the wholesale level.

Ada,

Most retailers get their seedlings from the same old same old major wholesale growers, and it is most economical for the wholesalers to raise plants that they can sell over a wide portion of the nation. So, that is what they do to a certain extent. When I lived in Texas, it was easier to find plant seedlings from local wholesalers, but more and more even the little ma-and-pa nurseries and feed and seed stores are carrying the same plants from the same wholesaler.

There are still some seed companies with a regional orientation--Territorial Seed and Victory Seeds in the PNW is one . Johnny's Selected Seed in the northeast, Southern Exposure Seed Exchange in the southeast, and Willhite Seed in Texas, are others, but regionally-oriented seed companies and wholesale growers are becoming more rare. Some of them sell plants and seeds while others mostly offer just seeds. Also in far south Texas, because of the unique coastal weather/growing conditions, you do have quite a few local growers raising specific plant varieties targeted to the coastal/sub-tropical growers/gardeners there.

In Oklahoma, there are a couple of local growers who raise a lot of heirloom veggies (and hybrids as well) that many veggie gardeners here prefer, but you have to know where to look. The Tomato Man and Daughter in Jenks is one such place but you'd have to check their website to see when they'll have plants available. I met a man several years ago at the Oklahoma Organic Living/Gardening Show at the state fair complex who raised about as many heirloom tomato varieties as I do and he told me he sells them at Farmer's Markets in the OKC area. I don't remember his name, but I am pretty sure his farm was called Sunrise Acres, so you might find plants from him at the OKC Farmer's Market close to planting time. And, don't forget Wild Things for native plants!

I'm gonna google and see if I can find Sunrise Acres in case anyone is interested.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Sunrise Acres

The tomato man's daughter has her website updated and below is the link if anyone is interested. I've bought from her in the past and always been pleased with everything I've gotten. For people not needing/wanting a large number of plants or not wanting to start them from seed this is another option. She has varieties you can't get otherwise and I like to try new things :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Tomato Man's Daughter

Hi Jill!

I figured you'd keep us posted this spring on TMAD. Thanks. Now I have to go see what Lisa has this year, even though I don't need anything....it still is fun to read about them.

I think this would be a hard "first spring" without her dad, but I am sure she is proud to carry on his work and the business.

Dawn

Just happened to notice that Brandy Boy seed is currently available from the Burpee website. I don't know what their issues have been/are but if anyone is looking for seed -- here's another shot.

Jill

Jill,

Thanks for the update. I still have seeds for this year, and have already started some in starter flats, but I think I'll go to their website and order a couple of packs to tuck away in my seed crate. I'd hate to run out of Brandy Boy seeds one of these years and have to go without such a yummy tomato if the company was having "issues" again.

Dawn

I think I will pass on Brandy Boy this year. I can't justify ordering it by itself. Maybe next year.

Scott,

I ordered extra. If they come in, I can send you some seeds for this year or for next year.

Maybe you'll see Brandy Boy plants in the local stores?????

Dawn

Thanks for the offer. I'll keep looking, but I don't expect to find any.

If I really loved tomatoes I would go ahead and get some, but I didn't really care for the Brandy Boys in salsa any more so than my other varieties. Some of the other people who ate mine really loved them though, and they produced as much throughout the season as anything I grew last year.

A week or so ago I bought a package of Burpee burpless cucumber seeds at Horn. This week I was in Westlake and picked up some Ferry-Morse four o'clock, Better Boy tomato, and bunching onion seeds. Yesterday I was in the Belle Isle Wal-mart, and, like others here, saw only Ferry-Morse seeds.

I got to thinking about the comments in this thread when I got home last night so I took a look at all my seed packets. All the Ferry-Morse seeds say "USA" on them. The Burpee cucumbers say "Germany." I'm wondering if this might be the reason Wal-mart is carrying Ferry-Morse instead of Burpee. I know they always say they try to "buy American" (which isn't possible for some things). If Ferry-Morse is consistently producing more of their seeds in this country that might explain Wal-mart's switch.

I picked up a couple more Burpee tomato packets yesterday and they both originated in the USA. I would be interested to know where the Brandy Boy or other seeds bought via mail from Burpee - that are NOT in their box store displays - are from.

Maybe it is all just a coincidence, but I like puzzles.

When I get the Brandy Boy seeds I'll let you know the country of origin.

Wal-Mart is well-known for pushing hard to get companies to pack products specifically for them that they can sell at the price they negotiate. During the last several years, the Burpee seed packs on the seed racks in Wal-Mart have had ever-decreasing seed counts. From comments posted on garden forums, it was clear that gardeners were noticing the lower seed counts and were not happy.

Gone Fishin' and I both noticed the difference in Burpee tomato seed counts about 3 or 4 years ago. You could buy a packet of Burpee Porterhouse seed on-line for about $4.00 or $4.25 back then and get about 45 to 50 seeds--I don't remember the exact amount. You also could get Burpee Porterhouse on the seed rack at Wal-Mart for $1.37 a pack, but each pack only had 7 to 9 seeds. So, you actually would have spent more at Wal-Mart to get 40-50 seeds of Burpee Porterhouse. Of course, not many people want to plant 40-50 seeds of one variety in a home garden, so you could argue that the Wal-Mart Burpee seed packs were "sized-down" for the convenience of home gardeners.

I noticed the same small seed counts with Burpee Highlight Zinnia on the racks at Wal-Mart either last year or the year before. I got 50 seeds in the Burpee mail-order packet for a higher price that was probably $4.00 or $4.50. Then, out of curiousity, I bought the same Burpee Highlight Zinnia (new that year) at Wal-Mart to test my theory about lower seed counts. I bought 4 packs for either $1.07 or 1.37 and each of them had 8 to 11 seeds. So, something is going on and I just wonder if Burpee got tired of selling smaller and smaller seed count packages because, if the consumer got mad about the smaller seed counts, you can bet they blamed Burpee and not Wal-Mart. It could have become a PR issue that Burpee just didn't need.

There's also the possibility that F-M did commit to using U.S.-grown seed. I don't know.

There's even the possibility that Burpee, which is after all a premier name in the seed industry, negotiated better deals for itself with Lowe's and Home Depot (and we don't have a K-Mart near us, but I know they've had Burpee seeds in recent years too) and that they dumped Wal-Mart. Sound far-fetched? Maybe, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I ordered five packets of seeds from Stokes Seeds recently, and they just arrived the other day. Here's what I got and their nation of origin. Note that each variety had a different nation of origin:

Tomato--Mountain Fresh Plus VFFN (India)
Tomato--Mountain Glory VFFF/TSWV (Thailand)
Watermelon--Yellow Doll (Peru)
Rudbeckia--Bright Star (Germany)
Liatris Spicata--Kobold (Holland)

They all were stamped with the "country of origin" but then also were stamped "packed in Canada" (Stokes is a Canadian company, I think, although they have a U.S. sales branch). What does this mean? It tells me the seed companies are probably buying seeds from whichever grower in whichever country gives them the best wholesale price. Who can blame them? Would I prefer to buy only U.S.-grown seed. Of course, I would always prefer to keep jobs in the U.S. But, judging from the meager selection on the F-M racks at Wal-Mart, the number of varieties grown in the U.S for major seed companis is rather small.

Scott,

My Burpee seed order arrived today.

The "country of origin" for Brandy Boy, Bloody Butcher and Zavory is the USA in all three cases.

Dawn

Dawn,

How many mg are the packages? I have Brandy Boy, 4th of July and Porthouse that I purchased from a feed store in Tennessee thru EBAY. They are this years packaging and all originate in China. All cost 2.49/pkg -- Brandy Boy is 60 mg, 4th of July is 90 mg and Porthouse is 20 mg. I know it's been discussed in previous threads that seed count is often less in packets purchased off the rack vs. ordered. So I was just curious what you received from ordering.

Thanks,
Jill

Jill,

The Brandy Boy seed pkts. purchased directly from Burpee are 100 mgs. each. I opened all three packets and counted seeds. I belive the catalog said there would be 30 seeds per packet. One packet had 30 seeds, the second had 39 and the third had 40. I didn't weigh the individual packets but I suspect they all do not weigh exactly 100 mg.

Bloody Butcher also was 100 mg. It contained 49 seeds. It is interesting to note that the Bloody Butcher seeds, as a rule, are significantly larger than the Brandy Boy seeds. Thus, either my Bloody Butcher pack has more than 100 mg. of content or the Brandy Boy packets have significantly less than 100 mg.

Burpee charges whatever it can get people to pay. For Brandy Boy, it was $4.75 per packet because BB is a Burpee exclusive, it probably is their best-selling hybrid, and there are plenty of people who are willing to pay their price for a packet of BB seeds. Bloody Butcher, on the other hand, is an open-pollinated variety available from almost any retailer that carries a good selection of O-P tomatoes. So, Burpee only charges $1.50 per packet for Bloody Butcher because people can go elsewhere and get it for about that price.

Zavory Hot Pepper, which is a red-fruited habanero-type pepper with habanero-type flavor but much less heat, is a 125 mg. packet. This packet contains 35 seeds which are pretty large for pepper seeds--they're about the same size as seeds from Super Heavyweight pepper which is much, much larger than Zavory.

I'm curious. Are your seeds in Burpee seed packets? I find it surprising that Burpee allows someone to sell their own seeds at lower prices than Burpee's listed price.

Some commercial tomato growers (and even some serious tomato hobbyists) pay up to $5.00 PER SEED for premium, proven, high-yielding commercial varieties, which I think is insane.

I haven't purchased any of the Burpee tomato seeds off the racks at Home Depot or Lowe's this year, but I am tempted to buy 1 variety from each store just to check the seed counts. Someone in California recently posted a question asking if $2.99 for a packet of 8 SunGold seeds seems excessive. Well, it seems excessive to me because you can order online and get many more SunGold seeds for only slightly more than $2.99---except, if you are only ordered one seed packet, then the shipping cost would make the SunGold seeds pretty high-priced per seed.

I purchased several of the high-fluraneol tomato varieties this year, but only if I found them at what I thought was a reasonable price. However, what I consider a "reasonable" price for a high fluraneol tomato would not be a reasonable price for any other tomato variety. If these varieties taste and perform as well as the hype says they do, they'll be worth it, though.

Dawn

Dawn,

They are packaged by Burpee and the price on the package is $2.49. They look just like what I purchased last year from Home Depot. I assume the feed store I bought them from has a retail rack much like Lowe's and Home Depot except that it has a different variety selection for this year. The Brandy Boy packets I bought last year from Home Depot were 30 mg and had about 20 seed -- I think. I haven't opened this years packet yet because luckily I discovered I had about half a packet left from last year. I was just curious and it is interesting that the ones you received originate in the USA, but the cheaper packets came from China. I guess that's sadly typical of a lot of things.

Jill