I was a member for 3 years. Haven't renewed this year. It depends so much on what you offer and how rare it is ect. I've been told by several growers that offer peppers and tomatoes that they try to have at least 500 seeds of a variety. I had thought about offering seed on SSE a few times. I was told by a grower who offers that unannounced they raised the price of seeds one dollar this year. Which for non listing members makes it fairly high in my opinion. I have found very few seeds offered at SSE that I can't find elsewhere. And I offer any seeds I save. I may not sell them. I believe in doing what one grower calls paying it forward. He gave me many seeds free. Just asked me to do the same with some of the saved seeds to help spread and save them. SSE's original intent was very good. It can be debated that intent has changed. Joining or rejoining is a personal decision. One I don't try to swap a person one way or the other. I feel that there are other venues that work as well or better for me to save and spread seeds. And there are several seed banks now if a person wants to support them. A person can even have their own seed bank in a freezer. George offers at SSE and can give you the side of a current member who lists. Whether to join or not is like most gardening decisions. No right or wrong. Just what is best for each individual. Jay

Thanks, Jay. I was wondering if I might be better off trying to save what I could and offer it here or trade so that I didn't have to have a set amount of any one seed. I've just starting swapping here on GW and I've found that there is a lot of variety!

I was reading today about the raising of the prices without asking the opinion of or giving notice to the members, which was a little off putting. At $4 or $5, I'm not sure that I could afford to order much. But, I do like the idea of supporting a seed bank. I'll have to give it some thought. I know that there are some smaller banks out there, so maybe I'll look into some of those, too.

Megan,

I belonged to SSE for a couple or three years as an unlisted member. I mainly joined just to support their cause with my membership fee, because I believe their cause is a very important one, and then I dropped my membership after the drama erupted.

I still believe in SSE and their mission and appreciate the fact that they have saved literally thousands and thousands of plant varieties from extinction. I am in awe of the many members who save and offer numerous varieties every year, particularly the ones like George and Jerreth who have done it for decades!

However, I have real reservations about SSE's recent internal drama and am concerned that the organization's board has taken some actions that have hurt its reputation. I guess my real concern is that the group is headed down a wrong path somehow....and I hope I am wrong about that.

This is the first year in probably a decade I haven't ordered anything at all from the SSE public catalog, and I feel kind of bad about that. However, there are many other sources of heirloom seeds (and I know that many of the smaller firms got their start using seeds they obtained via SSE or SESE) and I am spreading my seed orders around to them.

I prefer to order from companies like Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds and Southern Exposure Seed Exchange who give you more seeds for your money. If SSE gets its act together and stops all the infighting, turnover and drama, maybe I'll purchase from them again and maybe even rejoin. At the present time, though, with SSE I am taking a 'wait-and-see' approach.

I would never discourage anyone else from participating in SSE whether as a listed or unlisted member or as a financial supporter or as a customer. Right now, though, I want to focus on positive organizations and companies, and SSE just seems to have too much of a negative vibe lately.

Dawn

Dawn my feelings fall along the same lines as yours. I've had reservations about their directions since the drama of a few years ago. I didn't feel Kent was treated properly. I went ahead and maintained my membership till this year. After the research I did about Amy my concerns grew even more. In my opinion they served a good cause in the beginning. Now I think too many decisions are being made about money and not about the purpose SSE had in its beginning. I was about to rejoin when I was told about the raise in prices. I feel like others that it was done to benefit them as they sell lots of seeds ect in the yearbook. And now there as many other sources saving and distributing seeds. If their boat doesn't change course rapidly I feel what they are in the future will be different than what many of us joined there for. I'm supporting some other ventures at this time. And also now with computers and forums seeds can be saved and exchanged without using them as the middle man as before. Like I've stated elsewhere it will be interesting to watch what they do in the next few years. Jay

Well, I'm still the loyal SSE member. I too have had some doubts about their direction. Though my doubts were much stronger a decade ago than they are now. Here's my take on things.

1) There are indeed a good many other manners, today, to preserve seeds. Many of these other avenues are quite good. For this I am very glad. In fact, I have considered dropping my membership, albeit briefly. But my reason has been economic. Raising prices for membership is my bone to pick. I am a member far more TO OFFER than to request seeds. Until recently some of the things I've ("I" includes Jerreth, of course)offered were never adopted by others. Then, in recent years, the SSE itself has started doing a much better job of "backing things up," so to speak.

I rarely request more than one of two items in a given year. This year I'll request none. However, I find the SSE to be the best avenue for getting varieties into the hands of serious growers.

2) There are indeed other means of preservation. This is good. For a long time I was concerned because I believed that the SSE could not (and wasn't) doing the job adequately. Today, that's alright. They shouldn't try to do it all. They should fit a nitch, so to speak. I believe the SSE serves as a showcase for preservation, an idea center and place for serious seed savers to "meet," exchange material and ideas. But real impact in this area must not depend on one organization!

3) The matter with Kent Whealy was very unfortunate. However HE WAS WRONG. (Emphatic Period) The man came to believe too much in his own importance, thumbed his nose at the rest of the organization, left his wife, ran off with other women, and essentially dared them to do anything about it. They had to do something, and I believe they did the best possible thing out of all. Kent's board of advisers unanimously supported the SSE board, if I recall correctly. Yet, even in the midst of the whole scandal, their silence was deafening. NOT ONE OF THEM SPOKE UP ON BEHALF OF KENT. The reason being: he was wrong. It shocked me, even here on GW, to read of people who would attribute sinister motives to Diane Whealy, simply because she supported the board. She had faithfully supported her husband, and the work, for decades. Yet HE was the one who left.

Now the SSE apparently is going through change. I am not sure what's happening. But changes in leadership are not necessarily bad.

4)Personally, I prefer not to purchase from the SSE catalog. (I'm not speaking of the Yearbook.) I'm kind of ambivalent regarding this catalog. It does serve a purpose. But it also serves as a subsidized competitor to private seed companies. That's my take on it. I have never heard anyone else mention this. So maybe I'm missing something. But to me, it smacks of unfair competition.

5) The SSE was at the very least, one of the earliest in the area of preservation. They are the ones who got the ball rolling. They have been doing pretty well. Though, as I mentioned above, they cannot and should not try to do it all. Unfortunately, when one is out front, they will get "sniped at." I left a garden forum in 2009, when I figured out that many there were doing this kind of sniping. There is room for everyone in the area of preservation. But it is unethical and mean to try to "climb the pile," by denigrating the leader.

6) Raised prices: Did they raise the prices again, this year? I was not aware of it. However, the last price hike, came after they polled the membership. I supported it, as did the majority of those polled. The SSE Yearbook is not a catalog. It is a resource for finding rare varieties. By all means, if you can, get them elsewhere. But, now, they way they have set things up: if you want to pay to request them there, go ahead! You're supporting the grower and the SSE. I'm ever so grateful that the SSE is offering so many things now. If they didn't it might be that nobody else would. My Warsaw Buff Pie Pumpkin is a case in point. Finally someone else is offering it... the SSE! I've offered this one on an off, since 1986!

The real price hike, which hurts me, is the cost of membership. Ouch! Yet, though my income is low, it is not fixed. So, I save my request money, and I will pay.

So, why am I still a member? Well, for one, I love to read the Yearbook. I also have made many friends through the SSE. Also, their raised prices have helped me. I can save from what I receive on requests, and pay my membership. There would be no other way for me to pay. Membership is not for everyone. I grudge no one who decides not to join. that's fine. Yet I believe the SSE has and does serve a purpose.

Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox and going to work!

George
Tahlequah, OK

George,

I am glad you continue to support SSE and its mission...truly, I am.

I had the feeling all along that Kent was mostly at fault, and yet also found it truly regrettable that he was forced out of the organization he co-founded. I feel like all of them could have handled the entire situation better--for example, I think SSE should have given him access to his files and intellectual property. I think Diane has shown great strength and fortitude throughout the whole ordeal and I admire her greatly for that. I think it is easy for us to foreget that it wasn't just her organization that was ripped apart by Kent's actions, but her family as well.

I have had that uneasy feeling about the public catalog too while at the same time being grateful it has existed and has 'fed' the heirloom movement. Although my first heirloom seeds did not come from SSE, it still was their catalog that really encouraged me to try so very, very many heirlooms--both veggies and flowers--in the 1990s and early 2000s when I first began growing more and more heirlooms.

I have been very concerned about the rise in membership prices and in the prices charged for seeds purchased through the yearbook, but if the listed members supported that increase, then I do too because only the listed members know what they go through to preserve and share seedlines. I know that all of you listed members who offer seed don't "make money" off of this because the time, gardening space, mailing costs and effort spent growing and preserving the seeds is not in any way covered by the price paid by others for your seeds.

It is great to hear that someone else is now offering Warsaw Buff Pie Pumpkin. It was be a wonderful feeling to see someone helping you preserve it.

While changes in leadership are not necessarily bad and often, in fact, are good and can revitalize a stagnant organization, I still feel like the current board seems to be operating in a manner that concerns a lof of people. I am especially concerned George DeVault left after only a year because I felt like he would be a huge stabilizing factor there.

I don't want to point the finger at Amy Goldman either or blame her for anything specific, because her 3 books on heirloom veggies and her involvement in SSE have brought heirloom vegetables to the forefront in a way few others have, but I have the tiniest uneasy feeling about her involvement in SSE and I can't really say why. I guess it is more of an intuition type of thing.

I am glad you expressed your opinion about SSE, and of course I was expecting you to. You have been a member of SSE for a long time and I know they value your involvement highly. Hopefully SSE will emerge from this period of change stronger and better than ever.

Dawn

Dawn,
After reading about the recent issues that the organization has had, I had a lot of the same worries that you mentioned. From what I've read, I have some concern about Amy Goldman and some of the board decisions, but I really can't make too much of a judgment based on the small amount of information that I have. I am left wondering if it was just a rough patch or if the organization is headed in the wrong direction in general. I guess time will tell.

I've been ordering most of my seed from Baker Creek, but I've found that a lot of smaller family companies have started up in the last couple of years, so I've been trying to spread some of my support around to them as well. Baker Creek has been a favorite for a while and I've yet to have a bad experience with them.

George,
I was hoping that you would reply because I've seen you mention being a listed member for many years. I'm still not sure whether I will join as an unlisted member this year or not, but I'm thinking about it just to have the catalog, which most seem to agree is worth it. I would like your advice on being a listed member. I know that you probably have way more requests than a new member who only listed one or two varieties would have. What sort of numbers do you think that a newer member would need to be prepared to fill. The reason I'm asking is that I'd hate to list something and be unable to fill a request. I don't have a huge amount of space, but I'm thinking about devoting a small bed just to one or two varieties for saving.

Jay mentioned supporting other ventures and I've decided to look into that as well. I found the Southern Seed Legacy (linked below), which looks like an interesting organization. If anyone has any others, please post them.
Thanks for the help! It seems like a lot of the forums resort to name calling and conjecture when this topic comes up, but I knew that I would get reasonable responses if I asked here.

-Megan

Here is a link that might be useful: Southern Seed Legacy

Megan,

To list something as "Has," one should have enough for at least four full samples. A full sample of seeds is 25 seeds. A full sample of sweet potato slips is 3-4 slips. I more often try to send a small sweet potato, and let the person sprout their own, and get more that way. I do get more than 4 requests for some things. Been receiving several requests a day, for a couple weeks now, and joked with my wife, yesterday, "Wow! Here's a request which doesn't ask for Red Wine Velvet Sweet Potato!" (Slight exageration)

I believe four samples is the guideline for offering as "Has." Less should be offered as Limited Quantity. If you have something really rare, and in need of propagation you label it as "Must Reoffer." That cuts way down on the requests.

I respect all the opinions expressed above. Each is making some good points.

Dawn, I am completely uninformed about whatever Amy Goldman may or may not have done. Nor do I know why George DeVault left. Actually, I don't read the other yearbooks very much; just the winter yearbook. There are some good articles in them all. I just get busy and don't get around to it." Perhaps they have mentioned something in one of these.

While we're on the subject, I'd also like to add another disclaimer. The SSE has been a little, ... well, I don't know just how to describe it,... liberal, or "left leaning," as an organization; and that, for as long as I've been a member. That is not my personal leaning/persuasion. I just live and let live. But as a member, I hope no one every things I simply believe everything the organization puts out ;)

George

George,
I just sent you a message. Hope you receive it. A few things I wanted to convey that I felt didn't need to be aired on this forum. Jay

Thanks, George. I should be able to handle that amount of seed. I think I'll go ahead and plant the extras in another bed that way I'll have the seed to either share here or offer through SSE. That is, if it ever stops snowing...

Thanks Jay. I got it.

You're welcome Megan.

George

That K. Whealy was (apparently) a philanderer and divorced his wife is irrelevant to the claims/charges made by K.W. in his two long letters. They should be judged on their own merits, if they have any.

If the member advisors and other board members didn't stand up for K.W. it may be as a result of their being cowed by the nasty way the firing occurred in the first place.

Sooooo, it sure is hot outside today. I hear we will have a cold front early next week that will make the highs plummet to about 90.

Scott,

I had several funny comments pop into my mind, but I'll just leave yours and LOL.

Marcy

WOW. I miss all of the good stuff. (laughing)

I was considering joining something like this in the next year or so...Had NO IDEA there would be drama buried in seeds!

and so...joke of the day!

What do you get if you divide the circumference of a pumpkin by its diameter?
Pumpkin pi.

Joellen, that's a great joke!

I belonged to SSE for several years. After all the drama and controversy erupted, I decided to spend my money elsewhere and I'm not sorry I did it. They deserve every bit of credit in the world for keeping so many varieties going, both via their own internal seedbank and via their many members. Many of the heirloom varieties we can buy from seed companies were originally saved from extinction by SSE and their many members over the years/decades.

SSE is a great organization and I fully support their mission. However, I was just tired of being distracted by all the drama.

Dawn

At least there are other ways to "spread the seeds around." More power to them.

I often say, that the best means of preservation, would be that we "make more gardeners," and then, that every gardener would adopt, grow, use and share something which is not readily available. Diversity... spreading the seeds... is the greatest safeguard against losing them.

George