Susan

I'm glad we grew extra plants for them. It a joy to see the moth move through the yard. The cat is beautiful and a big eater. :-)

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randy

Susan, What a wonderful post you have written on some of my favorite creatures! The photots on the link were stunning.

You know I am a big fan of moths and butterflies, which some of my vegetable gardening friends find hard to accept. This year I am planting some of my 'back-up' tomato plants in some unimproved sandy soil outside of my garden, and those extra plants are just for the cats.

A lot of veggie gardeners tell me that if I don't treat my veg garden for the hornworms, then they will devastate my tomato plantings and I won't get any (or enough) tomatoes. However, I have found that is not at all true. Even when I see substantial damage on a tomato plant, that plant always bounces right back. I have NEVER lost a plant to the hornworms nor have I seen a marked decrease in yield. Yes, I will lose a tomato here and there, but not that many overall, and I figure the loss of a little foliage and a few tomatoes is a small price to pay for the enjoyment of having these beautiful creatures around.

As you know, at a certain point in my gardening experience, I chose to go organic and only use organic pestiticides. I saw a huge improvement in the amount of wildlife I was seeing around the place after I did that. As I evolved as a gardener and developed an even deeper appreciation for the complex insect world, I eventuallly stopped using even the organic pesticides. Now we all exist peacefully together and I have the peace of mind of knowing I am not poisoning my garden in any way with inorganic or organic pest treatments.

Back when I still used pesticides, I found that when I used them, even the organic ones, one particular pest or another would survive the pesticide application and become a problem. I think that occurred because the pesticide I had used had killed off the good predator bugs that normally would keep the other bugs in balance. So, it is ironic that I have less 'bad' bugs now than I did back when I used pesticides....but it is easy to understand. I have a good balance of good and bad bugs and the good bugs eat or otherwise destroy the bad ones.

And, if anyone had told me 10 or 15 years ago that I would be gardening this way, I would have laughed at them.

I appreciate all that you and Randy and many others do to educate all of us about the beauty that exists in the Lepidotera family.

Randy, I love your photos as always. It is especially nice to have something so lovely posted on a cold, gray, dreary day. It gives me something to look at and enjoy as I try to remember what warm weather and sunshine feel and look like.

And, to anyone else who is reading this post, please consider pesticide-free gardening. None of us can save the world and I know that, but we can each help make our little portion of the natural world a better place, by gardening with and for nature, instead of working against it.

Dawn

Dawn

I remember having to buy 2-3 different pesticides for effectiveness because of the pests ability to build up tolerance to constant use of just one.

I quit using pesticides when a nut broke on a high pressure backpack sprayer wand that covered my face with a "safe" biological BT type spray. I immediately stripped and flushed with my hose for about 5 minutes. My face twitched and my vision was slightly blurred for hours.

Since giving up on pesticides I have fewer damaging infestations and a greater joy of what lives around me. Aphids might get a jump on plants early in the season, but that just gives lady beetles a spot to lay eggs for her young. They quickly take care of the situation and scatter through the yard looking for more.

I have a big bougainvillea that is gorgeous right now. The first heavy bloom of the season is always spectacular against branches with no leaves. Will finally get to move it outdoors Monday.

randy

Randy,

I am glad to see that your experience since giving up pesticides is the same as mine. Even when you feel that you are following the right path, it is nice to see that there are others who are following a similar path and also seeing good results.

I especially like your choice of the phrase "greater joy of what lives around me". I had tried to work the word 'joy' into my post and couldn't figure out quite how to say what I meant...and then your phrasing said exactly what I had wanted to say.

Over the years, as I used pesticides, I saw the same types of insect resistance. And, there are some pests, such as corn earworms and squash vine borers that are hard to successfully control no matter what kind of pesticide you use. So, why take the risk of the pesticides and why spend the money on them when they don't even give good control?

Because my dad always had trouble with spider mites in Texas in July and August, I have always worried excessively about the spider mites. I would pull up and destroy plants that had a heavy infestation of them. I even resorted to using Kelthane, once before they took it off the market about a decade ago, and then once after they brought it back. It didn't even seem that effective on the mites and I hated applying it. As part of my decision to stop using pesticides and miticides, I have not treated for spider mites for years. I have a few spider mites, but not once since then have I had a heavy infestation and I just ignore them now. My best guess for the improvement in my mite problem is that the good mites that eat the red spider mites are able to control the problem by themselves if I just leave them all alone.

And, yes, there are times when the aphid population is hatching out and rapidly growing in the spring that I get that old 'panicky' feeling and start worrying....and then here come those little ladybug larvae to the rescue! The ladybugs always win that battle with the aphids, too.

I am so happy to hear that your large bougainvillea is finally going to be allowed to venture out into the world on Monday. :) Your bougainvillea is always so lovely...and so huge!

Dawn

When you grow milkweed, you're always going to have the oleander aphids (the orange ones), but I just leave them and eventually the ladybugs and lacewings come to take care of them. I know you can use a hard blast of water, but I'm always afraid I will knock or kill a caterpillar that I didn't find (and believe me, those Monarch cats can hide very well), so I just resort to relying on Mother Nature to handle the problem.

For spider mites, I just try to spray the plant with water (butterfly bushes are prone to this, too) a lot for several days straight. Spider mites like dry heat, so if you keep your plants watered down, you can beat them or at least keep them at a minimum.

Thanks for your kind words, Dawn. We do try our best. In an urban setting, I may not see near as many critters as Randy, but I try to cultivate a healthy environment for them anyway. And I see lots of insects in my yard.

Randy, as I was reading Dawn's post, I was thinking about the same thing that you said - tolerance to insecticides.

Another thing we now have to be concerned about is the BT-altered corn and other farm crops. When the pollen from the corn is blown over a patch of milkweed, it may affect the mortality rate of the caterpillars and butterflies. Some studies show it does and others that it doesn't. But, why take the chance?

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: BT Corn and Monarchs

Susan,

I do use a strong blast of water to knock aphids or mites off of many plants, but not the tomato plants. Tomato plants are so prone to foliar disease that I avoid getting water on them at all cost.

Really, though, since I have a really good balance between good and bad bugs, I just don't worry about bugs much anymore, except for Squash Vine Borers and Corn Earworms.

Now, if you start telling me how lovely the moths are that develop from the SVBs and CEs....well, I don't think you could convert me on that one. They are so destructive!

And those Bt-altered crops? Oh, don't even get me started on that. I am leery of any crop that is genetically modified. When new problems appear without warning, like the recent problem beekeepers are seeing with Colony Collapse Disorder, I always wonder if some of the GMOs are contributing to stuff like that.

When I first started growing heirloom crops, I only grew heirloom tomatoes. As time goes on I find myself growing many other heirlooms, like corn, melons, okra, black-eyed peas, melons, beans, etc. I don't like all the genetic tinkering they are doing with seeds these days. So, I avoid most of the fancy hybrids and stick with old tried-and-true open-pollinated veggies.

And, just because they CAN do something does not always mean that they SHOULD. Does anyone besides me remember the Favr Savr tomato developed a decade or so back by CalGene. Remember? We were going to have a tomato that could set there on your kitchen counter, all beautiful and red and ripe looking. Supposedly it had a super shelf life and wouldn't go bad and wouldn't rot. Well, it seems like it could sit there forever. And forever. And no matter how long it sat there, it never developed any flavor. None. No flavor at all. So, what good did it do to create a genetically engineered tomato that would last forever and had no flavor???? I stay away from all the genetically modified stuff, and now that they are turning Bt into a tool of the commercial farm industry, I stay away from Bt and Bt crops too.

Dawn

It is so nice to be "sitting" here with fellow non pestacide users. I wondered why for the past few years now my gardens did not seem to have the problems that my father and grandfather were having with pests>.. LOL I thought that maybe just maybe the bad stuff had not found my gardens yet LOL.. yes I saw a few aphids and a catapiller or two but they did not seem to really be damaging anything.
I worry about the effects of pestacides on my children I feel that no amount is safe.
When I first started gardening about 5 years ago I only used "safe" pestacides. I think they were organic.. I now use nothing at all. I may think about planting a few extra tomatoe plants for the catapillers this year if it ever warms up HAHAHA!!!

Thanks you guys for sharing your experiences!

Carla

You're welcome, Carla! I think more and more people are converting to organic and pesticide free gardening, and I am so glad.

Dawn, you're forgiven for the CE and the SVBs. I don't blame you for squishing them.

The cause of Colony Collapse Disease is still unknown, and there is much conjecture about what could be causing it. I have honeybees in my yard, but have never noticed a beehive anywhere. They love pretty much the same flowers that I plant for the butterflies. Their favs seem to be lavendar, bee balm, catmint (nepeta), milkweed, clover (oops, don't step on one, they do sting a bit). The bumbles like these plants, too. Late in the year last year, they liked the senna alata, too. I have to plant more seeds of it. They also liked the veronica, aster, cleome, joe pye weed, and the fruit plates I put out for the butterflies. These will also attract those tiny little insects that hummers love to eat.

One thing - don't buy Lantana 'New Gold', unless you want it for purely ornamental purposes. It doesn't attract butterflies or bees. BTW, the honeybees and bumblebees don't bother caterpillar eggs or tiny cats. It's the wasps and the parasitizing wasps that love cat eggs and cats. If you do find a hornworm that is covered with tiny white egg-shaped cases, it is a goner and you might as well squish it.

Carla, if you decide to grow some tomatos for the hornworms, you'll be fascinated by them. They are very voracious and efficient leaf consumers. Sometimes they will get into the tomatos themselves, but generally they prefer the foliage. If you pick them up, they are so velvety soft. However, the larger instars (4th and 5th) are very strong larvae and typically will wiggle so hard you tend to drop them! I usually try to get them to move onto a leaf, or cut off the leaf they are on and move it to a container to raise. I know you probably don't want to raise them (sphinx moths need about 3-4" of friable dirt, leaves, etc., to burrow into to make their cocoon, or shredded paper towels, as I mentioned), but you can move them to your non-essential tomato plants this way easily.

Susan

I don't use pesticides either, and have been gardening in the back yard for many years. My main reason for gardening has been to save grocery dollars. We love the flavor of "real" tomatoes, which, if we can even find them locally, are expensive. So it just seemed counter-productive to me to be spending extra dollars on all that expensive poison. Not to mention that I have little patience with the FDA which rules some things safe till we've used them 20 years, and then decides they're not safe and has them taken off the market. What are we to the FDA, anyway, guinea pigs???? Oh, sure, I lose a few things now and then, but that's a small price to pay. I do have to try to get out there when I see the little yellow moths, and cover my zucchini with some curtain sheers I bought at a yard sale. If I don't, they lay their eggs and the worms burrow into the woody stems and kill the plant. I know you can cut them out with a knife, but I haven't found that to work really well. Someone told me you can wrap aluminum foil around the stems and prevent the laying of the eggs, but I haven't tried that. Usually by the time the plants are killed, I've had enough zucchini anyway.

And on the topic of tomatoes that keep -- you really don't have to buy a special variety to keep tomatoes up to Christmas in Oklahoma. When the first killing frost is forecast, go out and pick all the green tomatoes off the vines. The small ones, you can use for green tomato relish, or make into dilly green tomatoes or even green tomato mincemeat -- or you can fry them!! The bigger ones, spread a few layers of newspaper on a table in an unheated basement and set the tomatoes in rows on that. Don't do more than one layer. Go down every once in awhile to check, as you'll have some that might rot. But you'll have others that go ahead and ripen, slowly. I've heard of people who carefully wrap them in newspaper, and pack them in a box to keep in a cool place. I wouldn't think you'd want to make more than one layer in the box, though, and you'd want to check them often to remove any that might have gone bad. The flavor's not as good, but still better than those rubbery grocery store ones. Also, you can freeze ripe tomatoes whole. I do this in the heat of summer when I don't want to heat up the kitchen to can them. Cut out the core and drop them into a zip-lock bag. Use them to cook with later on. No need to peel, when they thaw the peel slips right off. Bear in mind, they're not PERFECT this way, the tomato doesn't break up as well as it would if you were cooking with fresh tomatoes, but the flavor's still good. Smaller tomatoes are best done this way. If the tomato is pretty big I usually cut it into pieces before freezing.

Ilene,

I freeze ripe tomatoes whole just the way you do. And ANYTHING is better than those grocery store tomatoes. I just refuse to buy them at all.

I have had pretty good luck keeping green tomatoes from my normal hybrids and heirlooms in the tornado shelter for a decent period of time. Just trying the longkeeping varieties to see if they keep longer.

The latest into the winter that I have been able to eat a tomato from our garden that was picked green and stored in the cellar was in late January. There is no sadder day than the day you know that you are eating the last garden tomato until 'next year'.

This year I hope to make more sun-dried ones, although I'll actually be drying mine with a food dehydrator. I had some dried Sungolds and Sweet Millions in a salad in late February and they were so good!

Dawn

Hi Susan, Remember me? Just wanted to add my 2 cents about the sphinx moths. I love watching the big ones--from the tomatoe hornworm--work over the flowers of my surprise lilies and the smaller ones are thick at my daughter's on four o'clocks. Her husband showed me a picture he had taken of a "tiny hummingbird" on a four o'clock. I've never seen them at my place though. Dorothy

Hey, Dorothy - good to see you here!

I hav 5 snowberry clearwing cocoons that I overwintered in the fridge! I just put them outside last week with some sticks in the jar so they can climb and dry their wings. I hope I get some photos of them when they emerge. The honeysuckle is in full bloom, so they have plenty of nectar. That is also their host plant. That and viburnums.

BTW - 4 o'clocks are a host plant for the white-lined sphinx moth! I'm trying to get some up and growing this year.

Susan

Susan,

I have hundreds of four-o'clock plants everywhere. They reseed like mad and I pull up tons of newly sprouted ones every year.

For some reason, it took me three or four years to have much success getting them to grow from seed and to establish in the beds, but now they are everywhere, including places where I never intended to have them. Most of mine are the fuschia/pink flowered ones. I have some red ones and a few white and yellow ones. I have tried the multicolored ones several times but they don't seem as hardy or as likely to reseed as the ones in single colors.

Susan, how many tomato or tobacco hornworms do you see in a year? A few? Dozens? Hundred? I am wondering if they are successful in finding their way to your yard. It seems like it must be so much harder for them to find food sources in the city. I always see them out crawling across the roads here in the summertime.

At our house, I would say we have dozens, not hundreds. And we have a lot of moths, although I probably don't see more than 6 or 8 at any one time.

Dawn

what a wonderful discussion this is! pure sign the earth is conciously moving ahead!

i saw a beautif hornworm on Potato plants gobling leaves, i watched it crawl through but was confused w their infamous reoutation so reserching if they were bad for evology or just my plants… so glad to bump into tjis inspiring discusscussion chain!

reminds me of San Fukuoka’s book- one Straw Revolution’ he speaks of how nature takes care of itself if we leave it/ live live it Naturally!

love your compasdionate community!

Welcome. Are you in Oklahoma? While sadly, we lost OkieDawn last year, we were schooled by her and these other posters.

Hi Amy, thanks for your response.

sosorry to hear about Dawn, i read some interesting comments from her andthought high about the commentator! Where can i find more about her or your groups work w gardening naturally?

m from midwest illinois and we have fertile prairie lands so summer is good veggie gardening time! since there r many commencial farmers here, worms bees wasps are considered human enemies.. if only we could see our interconnectedness…

Sure Amy! sorry we were travelling so low on inetrnet.

i will check these links and thankyou also for the book name! All true basics are always universal and so are connected!

Best vibes to your wonderful community1