That's what I thought, but both the mulched grass clippings and alfalfa contribute nitrogen. How much nitrogen does one lawn need?

I'm not sure how much stock I put in the indicator weed idea. Years ago, I spilled some fertilizer and had a bare patch from nitrogen burn. The first thing to start growing there was black medic (another supposed indicator weed for nitrogen).

In my opinion, when you see clover growing, the only thing it really indicates is that you have clover.

My lawn has always had a bit of clover, but this year it came in strong, large localized clumps that seem to out compete the grass. Mostly in the front where I'm more apt to fuss with. It isnt that noticable from the side walk, so it is fine for now. This year I mow at max ht, previously at 1 or 2 notches lower; so maybe that has something about clover control?

I'm with the opinion of bpgreen that clover is not an indication of a nitrogen deficiency. Clover's ability to fix atmospheric nitrogen allows it to survive in a low nitrogen soil, but it does not mean the soil its in does not have adequate nitrogen.

I think what clover does help at indicating is compact soil (due to it growing shallow) and/or patchy lawn. Since your lawn is only 2 years old I would wager its more due to a young lawn (overseeding would be advised if you have a seed-based lawn) than compact soil.

Where I have clover is along the walkway to our front door. People (my wife!) choose to use the grass instead of the walkway/driveway and so it gets a lot of foot traffic that has caused the ground to be extremely compacted. I didn't realize how bad it was until Friday when I destroyed my body/hands using the HoundDog Core Aerator. In that strip of grass where it gets walked on constantly I could only get about an inch or two down with me jumping and landing on the tool. The rest of the lawn only took a little more effort then my body weight (170lbs) and I got a clean plug.

I have a well established zoysia lawn that resists most weeds due to the dense turf and moderate thatch accumulation.

HTH

Soil compaction would make sense. The bulk of the clover is in the strip along the sidewalk where all of the kids walk on their way to school. I just hate it since it stands out so much in the lawn. The grass I used spreads by rhyzomes, so it's a fairly full lawn. Very few other weeds have worked their way in.

Is clover a perennial or will it die off? I don't want this stuff spreading into my new lawn and taking it over. Any way to kill it?

Clover is a perennial. If you're organic, I think your options are pulling it or using vinegar (which will also kill the grass). If you're ok with chemicals, any broadleaf weed killer (like 2,4 d) should work. Roundup will also work, but will also kill the grass.

Is it an opportunistic perennial? In other words, if I get the soil back to optimum condition before the growing season next year, will that keep it from thriving? I know preventive soil/lawn care goes a long way toward battling weeds. I'm convinced that mowing high to crowd out weeds is the reason I never get crabgrass despite my neighbor's yard being riddled with it. If I do pull it out, are we talking all the way down to the root or will ripping all the leaves off be enough to keep it from reproducing?

If you can get the soil and grass in good shape, that will help greatly. However, I think you'll need to get the root to get rid of it. You're staving off the crabgrass because it's an annual. Once you get rid of the clover you have, if you continue good practices, it won't regrow from the seeds, but you need to get rid of it first.

BPGreen - you've given me hope! My fear was that it would just pop up again.

I have a smallish yard over run with clover which I've been hand pulling. I know I'm missing some roots but getting most so I'll have to spot pull over time. There's grass underneath but also quite a bit of dead stuff. I put down some sugar and I'm going to put down bio pak tomorrow to try to jump start the microbes to regenerate the soil and give the grass a chance. Plus fertilizing, watering properly, etc.

I'm hoping that by the end of next summer, I'm mowing grass instead of clover.

It's strange (and I'm not being a smart ass) to read about people trying to get rid of clover when I'm actually considering mixing white clover seed in with perennial rye seed this fall when I overseed. I mean, is it really that unattractive? I've read so much about the benefits of having clover mixed in with the other grasses, mainly the nitrogen fixing aspect and that it helps to keep the lawn nice and green year round, etc. Reading these posts about the struggle to get rid of it, makes me question the sanity of intentionally overseeding with it?

gbig2 and others: There are SO MANY things wrong with the advice and speculation offered in this thread that I don't even know where to start.

gbig2, you should be questioning the sanity of those that would come to an organic lawn care forum and suggest the use of an herbicide. Also question the sanity of those that would agree. Unbelievable.

Greenjeans : (

I have clovers and I am proud of it!

You should be! After all this is organic lawn care. Shame on you!

FYI - Clovers grow with or without fertilizer so it has nothing to do with nitrogen content in the soil. I should know.. I fertilized my lawn with soybean a couple time this spring and they kept on growing. They like plenty of rainfall and not so hot weather. That's the condition they THRIVE.

Amen Lou! Clover doesn't bother me either but I can understand how people would want to pull it.
It was a hard sell to my wife, she thought I was insane, but once I explained the benefits she understood and agreed. I think once it's mixed and spread through the whole lawn vs in patches it can look good and really benefit a lawn.

Just having some clover isn't an indication of anything. However, if the clover is thriving and the grass isn't, that is an indication that conditions are favoring the clover. It could be generally poor soil, low nitrogen, low water, low mowing etc. but there is something making the clover happier than the grass.

As for general fertilizer quantities, you will need 3-4 lbs of nitrogen per year from all the sources you use.

As to how to get rid of it, you basically will have to pull it up and get the roots. It is a spreading perrennial and quite opportunistic. It is quite happy living anywhere grass does, so it won't go away on its own now matter what other improvements you make.

I have to admit that my aversion to clover is simply down to peer pressure. And to be honest, if it were really just green it wouldn't matter to me. It's the white dots all over my lawn that set me apart from my neighbors and cause me angst.

I agree though - no herbicide. I'm trying to prove to myself, and to the next-door neighbor, that my yard can look just as good without contributing to the synthetic chemical run off that's so common in our neighborhood.

Mea culpa. I'm the guilty party who mentioned chemicals. I must have forgotten which forum I was on. Seems a bit harsh to question my sanity for that, but if you think a momentary lapse in memory or attentiveness makes me crazy, I suppose I'll have to live with it.

Don't sweat it bp, I think a lot of us visit both of the lawn forums and it's easy to forget which one you're on.

Shrug. I used herbicides the first year to control the weed problem while the grass was strengthening. Of course, I was spot applying them and using the minimal amount necessary to get the job done.

It's still a lot better than a Weed and Feed transmitted everywhere.

One thing I found with clover (of which I had tons the first year, plus nutsedge, black medic, etc.) is that it doesn't thrive very well in a dense, high-mowed lawn.

This being the first full year of an organic program, I'm dumping the stuff down and not minding my nitrogen levels much. It's transforming dead clay into something very nice, the grass grows (with appropriate water) at 2-3" a week, and the weeds are being outcompeted before they can even show in the lawn.

So describe me as an Integrated Gardener. Chemicals where and when appropriate, minimal amounts, and try to transform the soils into something that can encourage what I want with minimal hassle.

If you wanted to keep clover under control, just yank them out. That pretty much slowed them down big time. In one spot, they died off. It was an experiment to see how they responded for the fun of it.

Having a thick and tall healthy grass will definetly keep weeds out. I spread white dutch clover seeds on the entire lawn in march 2006 and only like 5% of the lawn are covered with clovers so that shows you how effective thick and tall grass is at keeping weeds at bay.

Interestingly, a couple of white dutch clovers have mutated to pink flower type. No bees at all either unfortunately.

Lou--is there any chance that those pink clovers are strawberry clover instead of dutch white? Strawberry clover looks a lot like dutch white except the flowers are pink instead of white. Strawberry clover is supposed to be better adapted to alkaline soil.

I intentionally seed clover into both my lawn and my meadow-in-the-making.

You can see pictures at the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Suburban Meadow Project, Part 2