Susan,

This has been a topic on the Tomato Forum at various times over the decade or so that Gary has offered OP Big Beef seeds.

When I choose to grow hybrids it is because they give us something specific that many OP tomato varieties do not--and normally that is tested/proven tolerance of the major tomato diseases for which a tolerance is known to exist in some genetic lines. Hybrids often have been bred for better heat tolerance too and to produce higher yields, which certainly is true of Big Beef. When someone dehybridizes a hybrid, you end up with a different variety--not exactly the same one.

When you choose to grow a dehybridized version of a hybrid, you should understand that it will not be exactly the same as the original hybrid. (If it is exactly the same and that could be proven, then anyone selling O-P Big Beef seed would be in legal trouble with whoever owns the rights to the hybrid Big Beef.) There is no way to know if it will give you the same tested and proven disease-resistance that you get in the real hybrid of that variety. You also have no way of knowing if the OP version will have the very strong heat tolerance that is present in the original hybrid Big Beef.

For me, the reason I grow the hybrid Big Beef is precisely because it has proven tolerance of VFFNT and also because it produces great-flavored fruit in our very hot and difficult climate. So, even if Gary's dehybridized version gives you a plant that looks like the hybrid Big Beef, and even if it produces fruit with the same shape, size, color and flavor characterestics of the hybrid Big Beef, there is no way anyone can know or should expect it to have the same disease and heat tolerance. Without those, it is just another red tomato out of thousands of red varieties, albeit likely to still have good flavor.

Since the original hybrid is widely available, I see no upside to choosing the dehybridized version unless you just want to save the seeds. I can buy a packet of Big Beef seeds on the seedracks at local stores for less then $3 and for less than $2 when they are closing out the current year's seed stock. Why pay more for an O-P version from Tomatofest that does not have the proven disease-tolerance?

I love O-P tomatoes and grow lots of them, but make no mistake about it....in our very difficult climate, the disease-resistance, heat-tolerance and hybrid vigor of the commercial hybrids is incredibly important and, given a choice between any hybrid variety and its O-P version, I'm going to chose the hybrid every time. I've tried a handful of O-P versions of some hybrids, and wasn't real happy with the results (not that I expected to be).

Heirloom O-P tomato varieties have become all the rage in the last decade, for many reasons and a lot of those reasons are good ones. One reason for their popularity is that the flavor has not been bred out of them by breeders looking only for shelf life or disease-tolerance. However, hybrids give us some things that are not proven to exist in the OPs, and disease-tolerance and hybrid vigor are two of those.

You might note that in Gary's own description, he does not mention disease-tolerance or heat-tolerance, so you have no way of knowing if those exist in his OP version and I think he cannot mention the disease-tolerance if he hasn't paid for the testing to prove that disease-tolerance exists.

I grow both OPs and hybrids because they bring different things to the table. With an O-P version of a hybrid you can lose the very things that cannot be seen but which remain important. Just because the plant might produce a tomato that looks like Big Beef doesn't mean it is Big Beef. I hope that last statement makes sense.

I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but just want to be sure everyone who's thinking "Cool! An O-P Big Beef!" understands what they may be giving up in vigor, heat tolearance and disease tolerance if they choose to grow it instead of the original, which in my opinion is one of the best hybrid red-fruited varieties around.

Dawn

You are so right, Dawn, and thanks for that explanation! I am growing Big Beef hybrid and it is doing well and has green fruit.

I am growing one called Top Sirloin, an OP, seeds obtained from Gleckler last year. There was a Top Sirloin F1 introduced by Ferry Morse several years ago. As it stands, no one really knows if the F1 was dehybridized or not, but the OP is a separate and distinct tomato from the F1. It is supposedly very heat tolerant, highly productive, flavorful beefsteak-type, ruffled shoulders, so I wanted to try it. Will keep you posted. One of the growers who had high praises for this variety was Suze in Texas, and if you know tomatos, you probably know who she is. She also does a lot of testing and reviews for Tatiana. This tomato is also supposed to do well in hot, dry years and that may not be tested this year. The proof will be in the tasting.....assuming I get fruit!

Susan

Susan,

I didn't want to be too negative, but this is an important issue because in a hot, dry year, the hybrids I grow will outproduce the OPs by as high as 10-1. It isn't like we live someplace where it is easy to grow tomatoes, and most years are hot and dry so we do have to worry about timely fruitset and heat tolerance. So, while the OPs will give a decent crop early in the season, they may or may not set fruit well in the hotter months. That's when the hybrids often pick up the slack and I feel like the great-tasting hybrids with proven disease tolerance and high yields are worth their weight in gold in July and August.

Brandywine vs. Brandy Boy is a perfect example of how heat can affect an OP. Brandywine is my favorite tomato of all time and in a year when it is not too rainy as the fruit is maturing, the flavor is incredible. Nothing else tastes exactly like a good Brandywine. I first grew Brandywine in the mid-1990s and never got huge yields, except once in about 2003 or 2004 when we had so many tomatoes from six Brandywine plants that we gave them away. Everyone we gave Brandywines to said it was the best tomato they'd ever eaten, and the unspoken question in their eyes was "why don't you give us some of these every year". I felt obligated to explain that most years I only got 3 or 4 fruit per plant period for the whole year.

When Burpee released Brandy Boy, I thought "Yeah, sure, like anything is ever going to match Brandywine's flavor." Still, Gone Fishin' liked them and highly recommended them, so I planted them in either BB's second or third year of existence, and I loved them. While Brandy Boy's flavor is not as exquisite as Brandywine Sudduth's, it is close enough for me. I looked at one Brandy Boy today and counted its fruit. It had 24 and still is flowering and setting fruit. In even the best of years I'd need 6 to 8 Brandywines to equal the production of one Brandy Boy. I think I planted 4 Brandy Boys this year. So, even though I love Brandywine, it just does not produce enough fruit to earn a spot in my garden, but Brandy Boy, with its similar flavor, high production and disease tolerance earns several spots in the garden. I do like True Black Brandywine and it produces well, but it has a black tomato flavor, not a true Brandywine tomato flavor. I grow at least 2 TBBs every year, and sometimes 4.

I still struggle with getting the balance right between hybrid and O-P varieties. I'd rather grow more OPs for all their unique flavors and colors, but I have to grow a lot of hybrids too in order to be able to give away as many as I do and to be able to can, dehydrate and freeze a whole lot of them.

I love, love, love Big Beef. I have several and they're all heavily loaded and I am thrilled about that. I also love Big Boy, which my dad always grew, even though it never seems to produce as well for me as it seemed to produce for him. Better Boy produces more heavily most years, but I don't like its flavor quite as much as Big Boy. I've never tried Best Boy because I suspect it is only an attempt to capitalize on the popularity of the other Boys. I'm stubborn that way. Now I have to take back what I said about Big Boy. One year I planted 6 or 8 of them in late July for fall tomatoes. It was incredibly hot and dry. Our afternoon humidity was in the single digits many days. Our highs were over 105 and as high as 110 in August, and those Big Boys were blooming and setting fruit every day in those conditions. I believe the low humidity is what allowed high fruitset in high temps. That year, we had so many Big Boy tomatoes on those plants when the first frost hit that I pulled up the plants, brought them into the garage and stripped them of every fruit. We gave away hundreds of fruit, both red and green. It was incredible. Sill, that's the only year I've grown Big Boy that it truly wowed me with its productivity in the heat.

Early Girl is a tomato-producing machine this year. The one Early Girl that I have in the galvanized 200-gallon stock tank (with three other plants) already has produced 19 ripe ones, has 4 more breaking color, and about 15 fully green ones. If she never produces another tomato this year, I'd have to be happy with how well she has done. However, she usually produces all summer long, including in July and August when a lot of others slow down, so I expect she'll keep on producing all along as long as disease or some horrid pest doesn't attack her.

I grew the F-1 Top Sirloin and it was only okay as grown in my garden in whatever years I grew it. It didn't make the permanent grow list. It isn't that it was bad. It is just that it was only average, and I'm always looking for the ones that are above-average. I hope the O-P Top Sirloin is a good one for you. It sounds nice, and if Suze likes it, then it certainly is worth trying because she grows in conditions I consider tougher than ours.

It is a hot dry year here at my house! lol Last May we had over 7" of rain in May alone and it was such a relief to have that rainfall. This year, in May so far, we've had less than 1.5" at our house and it is so incredibly dry that we're afraid to mow the pastures for fear the dry standing cool season grasses and forbs will ignite. It's pretty bad when it is too dry to safely mow in May. I've only set the place on fire once by having the lawn mower hit a rock, causing a spark that set the grass on fire, but it is an experience I do not care to repeat.

You should get fruit from virtually anything you planted this year as long as the plants stay healthy. The temperatures are in the right range for fruit set and, for once, are staying there in that range for a decent amount of time.

I did look at my dwarfs this afternoon, and all of them are in bloom or have blooms about to open, but none have visible fruitset yet. The plants thenselves are healthy and happy with no pests and no diseases so far.

Dawn

Dawn,
Surprised to read your Dwarfs have no visible fruit set. I had been going to post or email and ask if you had ate any yet. I have a lot of fruit set. I was just thinking as I was checking things after dark overall they have more fruit set than anything I have. I still have two I need to pot up again. I'm going to try to keep mine in five gallon buckets. Two got set back and will be later. But the others are nice, vigorous plants and have good fruit set on them already. I have fruit set on some of the in ground plants. The WOW's and the heat set mine back some but at least they developed a good root system and have really took off. I have been using the sprinkler can and feeding them and the ground around them every two weeks. Increased the N a little after the heat steamed the plants in the WOW's and they are recovering well. There are some varieties looking good but I'll wait to say much for a while. Ambrosia Gold is the heaviest setting cherry so far. It is just across from Sungold. And winning the race up to now. The CP's are setting. I still need to finish up with the last of the plants. They will be the ones I plant for fall maters. I've been eating tomatoes from the early plants I started in the lean too for 2 weeks now. I'm getting enough I can have them on a salad every night. With the wind and then I've had a couple of auctions with items I wanted I haven't got as much done as I had hoped. I dug down and the garlic is bulbing up nice. And only one variety is showing signs of maturing. I debated and decided to water it today. The second time I've watered it all year. Worked in some corn gluten around the early sweet corn, sprinklied AgGrand liquid organic fertilizer on top then mulched it. I won't fertilize it again. I think I'll be picking sweet corn by mid June which will be the earliest I've ever picked it. Jay

That is why I have some hybrids in the mix this year, Big Beef, Better Boy, Bush Goliath, Juliet, Sungold, SunSugar. OPs include CP, Indian Stripe, Top Sirloin, Mountain Princess, Black Cherry, Chocolate Cherry, New Big Dwarf.

Your dwarfs sound like they are doing very well, both yours and Jays. I don't know why I didn't grow any this year, except that I grew from seed I already had and I purchased plants, too. As far as I know, there aren't any dwarfs from the DTP being sold commercially here yet. Pretty much the hybrid standards with a few OPs thrown into the mix.

I understand your suggestion about growing a mix of hybrids and OPs, and that's why, based on your past recommendations that it is a good idea to do so, I threw a few in. So hopefully, if the heirlooms fail, I'll at least have some hybrids to rely on. As you also said, assuming they are disease free, or at the minimum disease "manageable".

I may get nothing from Top Sirloin, but it was one I just "had to have", for whatever reason, the name, the descriptions, the reviews, yada yada. Have you experienced that compulsion? LOL!

I am growing both IS and CP to do a comparison of the two. Will also be able to compare SunSugar and SunGold.

Thanks for all your help, Dawn - really appreciate it.

Susan

Jay, I don't think I put any dwarfs into the ground until the week of the plant swap. I was waiting for a cool-season crop to finish, so I could use its space for the dwarfs. I also put the real heat producers, like Merced and Arkansas Traveler in that bed. Thus, the late fruit set doesn't surprise me because I know that I held them in plastic cups for an extra-long time.

The climbing cutworms chewed on everything in my garden, stripping some tomato plants down to bare stems. They ate on the dwarfs quite a lot, but didn't strip them. After I sprayed the whole garden with Bt, the climbing cutworm damage pretty much stopped and all the plants that were devoured have made a pretty good recovery but they remain a little behind everything else. Today, while digging out bermuda grass that's trying to creep under the fence on one side of the garden, I dug up more cutworms. I am not happy to see them. I smashed them into the ground or cut them in half with the trowel. These were not the tan-colored variegated climbing cutworms we had earlier in the year--these were just the normal black ones.

Congrats on the early harvest of tomatoes! That's an awesome achievement for someone in your zone!

We will be harvesting early corn this week I think, and I do not believe the coons will get a single ear. For the second year, we put a corn cage (just field fencing with a fence roof wired to it) around the corn and the coons cannot get to the corn to steal it. I know they've been around because I see their tracks, but I do not have any half-eaten ears of corn tossed on the ground this year. After the sweet corn ripens, we'll pull up the poles and move the corn cage to the mid-season corn. The late season corn is in the Three Sisters Garden and it has a permanent fence, but we need to add the fencing roof so they cannot just climb the fence and get the corn. In a way it is ridiculous to go to those lengths to get sweet corn, but without the corn cage, the coons likely would get it all. They used to get just a few ears, but in recent years they arrive en masse and strip 100-200 plants in 1 or 2 nights, and they do it before the corn is ripe enough for humans to harvest. Without the corn cages to keep the coons out of the corn, there wouldn't be any point in planting it.

It is plum picking time, with fruit on both trees ripe, so I'll be harvesting and jellying this week. Since it is cooler than recent days have been, I've tried to work outside as much as I could today. The sun came out from behind the clouds and it instantly felt so much hotter, so I scurried right inside.

Susan, You're welcome and I'm always happy to help. Growing tomatoes is such a fascinating experience and I am not ashamed to say I am tomato-obsessed. When people tell me they do not like tomatoes, I feel sorry for them because I know why they do not like tomatoes---it is because they've only ever had those round, red, mushy, tasteless things from the grocery store that pass for tomatoes. If they'd ever had a ripe, juicy tomato fresh from the garden that was just picked and still is warm from the sun....then I know they would love tomatoes!

I was normal when we moved here. I grew standard red hybrid tomatoes, and maybe I grew Lemon Boy or Jubilee every other year. I had grown Brandywine in Texas, and maybe Cherokee Purple and Arkansas Traveler. Sometimes I grew the Porter tomato from the old Porter & Sons Seed Co. from Stephenville, TX. It is a pinkish tomato that produces very well in high heat. I was space-limited there so couldn't plant too many. After we moved here, and had all the space in the world to experiment with lots of tomatoes, 'normal' flew out the window. Growing a couple of heirlooms turned into growing more and more and more. At some point, though, I began adding back more hybrids. Now, I try every year to tailor my planting list to the kind of weather I expect. The worse the weather I'm expecting, the more hybrids I grow.

This year, I was really worried that the big wall of high heat/low rainfall would hit in July and production would grind to a halt. So, I planted enough plants that even if that happens, I'll be all tomatoed-out by then anyway. That way, it won't be so painful to turn off the hose and let the tomatoes just be at the mercy of the weather.

If, by chance, the current dry conditions change, we'll have so many tomatoes that we'll be sick of them. I'm cool with that too. It is never hard to give away tomatoes if you have too many.

Comparing the different varieties is fun. There are some that taste so good, though, that I'd grow them anyway even if other plants nearby outproduce them 20-1. That kind of explains why I have 100 different varieties in the garden...not that I even know at this point how many varieties I ended up with, or how many plants.

Most years, in a blind taste test, I cannot tell SunGold from SunSugar. If it is raining a bit, I can tell because SunGold is more prone to cracking. But if I just stand in the garden and look at both plants side by side, I can't tell the difference.

With IS and CP, I think IS produces a more attractive fruit, but when we have cut up a bunch of both for something like BLT sandwiches (or, in Tim's case, BOLT sandwiches 'cause he adds onions), I cannot tell by the taste which is IS and which is CP. Your results might be completely different since we all perceive flavors differently.

I'd like to think that one of these years, I'll stop experimenting so much and be happy with the favorite varieties that I have, but I suspect that every year there will be a dozen or more new varieties on the grow list to try just in case there might be a new favorite variety out there waiting to be discovered.

Dawn