Marcy, you are probably in the right place for container growing. There is lots of container growers here..myself being one. But there are many that have a lot more experience than myself and I will let them pipe in on that. I suggest trying some Hot Hungarian Wax Peppers. They are similar to Banana Peppers but definitely a different variety. They have heat but not overbearing...Less than Jalapenos and Cayennes. If you are just beginning to grow peppers, I would start with the basic, tried and true varieties and suggest Cayenne for seasoning and drying. Not too much heat but enough to put a zing in most foods. If you want some real heat, grow a Habanero. Pepperoncini is another low heat pepper you might consider.

Many pepper growers use 5 gallon pails for growing peppers and I don't know why they wouldn't work good for Cucumbers. I think it is probably a matter of the soil you are using...Regular garden soil doesn't do well in containers, but I will leave that stuff up to the experts on list. PM or email Greenman28 if you want some good advice. He grows a lot with the 5-1-1 mix for peppers but I know he grows a lot of other veggies as well.
Bruce

Thanks, Bruce ;-)

Yes, the 5-1-1 is soil-less - but it is a HIGH organic mix - 85 percent organic (bark, peat),
and 15 percent Perlite. That said, it is very durable due to the pine/fir bark base.

I use it for all of my container-grown peppers, as well as tomato.

Josh

Sorry. I steered Marcy wrong when I called the 5-1-1 "inorganic" in the veggie forum. What I meant was that it isn't treated by adding ORGANIC material such as compost and ORGANIC fertilizers such as bone, cottonseed, blood, alfalfa, kelp meals et al when dealing with relatively "small" containers.

Marcy:

I had many questions regarding the 5-1-1 mix last year. Click on the link below and maybe some of YOUR questions may be answered.

Josh:

A few quesstions--

1)Can you post the link to your video on mixing the 5-1-1?

2)You say that you don't like peat moss, and suggest turface. Where might I find turface? I've checked around and nobody has even heard of it. I've heard that cat litter might be a good substitute. Walmart sells a brand called "Special Kitty Natural Clay cat Litter" no perfumes. Do you think this might be ok?

3)TOMATOES in containers with the 5-1-1? How deep(big) of a container. Tomato roots like to go about 4-5 feet deep. Are you talking about short season, determinate varieties?

Thanks

Kevin

Here is a link that might be useful: info on 5-1-1 mix

I'd suggest poblano peppers. I hope to have some in my garden every year. They are not very hot (not exactly sweet, either...more of a smoky flavor). Anaheim and New Mexico peppers might also be a good choice...as would some of the mild jalapenos (yes...there is more than one type of jalapeno pepper)

I've heard of folks having good results using 5 gallon buckets to make growbuckets (sub/self irrigating containers)

I had great luck with a false alarm jalapeno plant in a container this year.

Hey, Kevin, you bet! :-) Potting Mix - making 5-1-1

Turface can be found at John Deere locations, other farm stores, and at landscape supply.
Turface MVP is the exact product. I just bought a bag: price has gone up to $13.65 for 50 pounds.

Napa Auto parts product #8822 is a good floor-dry type material, and a great substitute for Turface.

The problem with many kitty litters is that they are not stable. To test, soak in water, then freeze.
The next day, allow the material to thaw. If it turns to mush, it is no good for use in a container.

*The reason I don't like peat moss is that it hastens the decomposition of the mix, which also leads to
a more messy container - tea-colored effluent as the mix begins to break down. Turface holds moisture
better, receives moisture better when dry, and is durable for long-lasting structure and aeration.

Every year I grow a container Sun Gold cherry tomato, which is indeterminate and pumps out
green tomatoes into November until the freeze kills the plant. I grow in a 15-gallon container,
and the plant climbs high into a liquidambar tree, over the lattice, up to the roof, sprawling everywhere.
This is on my back deck with a south-east-south exposure - always difficult to get a decent pic of
this monster. Osmocote primarily, with maybe two or three Foliage Pro treatments per season.

Pic taken in October.

Josh

Who needs trees in the yard. Just grow tomatoes every spring for shade.
Bruce

The size of that tomato plant makes that 15 gal container look smaller than it really is! :) I bet you got a huge harvest from that one. Was that in the 511?

Hehehe, the tomatoes in the garden really do make a lot of shade... ;-)

MG, yep that's in the 5-1-1. The harvest is so heavy and continuous that I never
eat them all. Many of them split on the vine before I can get to them.

I know it's a Pepper Forum, but I highly recommend Sun Gold tomatoes.
This'll be my 5th year growing one in a container on the back deck.

Here's a pic for you, MG - this is the tomato last year May 2, two weeks after potting.

Its amazing what a few months of growth does. That plant really took off! I always end up with more harvest then I can use too.I will try dehydrating tomatoes this season, A great way to store them. I would like to give that variety you have there a try. I am going to give roma a try for drying so we will see how it goes!

Happy growing!

Ooh The Sungold :))) I grew them first time last year, it was amazing how resilient and prolific they were, they are indestructible! We had heavy drought, i ran out of supports for them so they sprawled on the ground, i didn't treat them with anything for protection against disease. And while other tomatoes survived, these thrived and just kept giving. They are now a must in my garden, and i'm tracking down seed to send to friends and relatives.
Seeing now how they do in pots, i'm tempted to try one this year just to see if i can get it that big, and it is a very pretty plant after all :D

Josh, is it possible to use LECA instead of turface? LECA is easy to find here so I am thinking about alternative of truface.

Caelian

Caelian, Leca is very large from what I've seen.
If it were broken into smaller shards and chips, it would work.

Do you have an autoparts store that sells calcined clay for absorbing oils?
Napa auto parts #8822 is an excellent (and more cost effective) substitute for turface.

Josh

Caelian, i noticed you live in Denmark, well there is a very interesting company there called Damolin, they are the main producer of diatomaceous earth products in Europe, which is a very good substitude for turface :) you can probably buy directly from Damolin, or find their DE kitty litter in ordinary stores, check this link for pictures and description: http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm
Daww, i wish Damolin exported here to croatia, i use a different kind of expanded clay, as do all bonsai growers here.

Thanks, Teyo, for that helpful advice :-)

As I was screening Turface yesterday, I noticed that Turface is now on Facebook, too.

Josh

Josh, LECA is really big and I do not like to break it. We have autoparts stores I will try to find out.

Teyo, recently I went to the clinic for animals, they have cat litters but extremely expensive, it cost about $17 for 8 liter so I did not buy it.

After I read your message I went to the supermarkets looking for Damolin but I found another brand and very cheap it cost $00.17 cents. It is very light 8l/4.1kg.
Have a look:

{{gwi:1140902}}


{{gwi:1140904}}

Is it OK, Josh? If it is OK then 5.1.1 will be 5 parts pine bark, 1 part cat litter/turface and 1 part perlite. Please give me correction.

It is funny to think about my experiences to find all these ingredients for 5.1.1. More than 1 months it took to find perlite and cost for 5 liter was about $10 with shipping charge and now I found it 50 liter cost only $16 without shipping charge, I can go and collect it from the plant the size is also good it is grade 2 a bit bigger than the normal size.

Both of you made me find the right product, thank you.

Caelian

Caelian,
here is how to test the cat litter:
soak a small amount with water, pour off the water, then put the cat litter into the freezer.
After it freezes, thaw it out. If it turns to mush, it is not suitable for use in a container.

I had the same experience as you when I began looking for ingredients. At first, I couldn't find
anything! Then, all of sudden it seemed the ingredients were right in front of me. When I searched
for Turface, I looked many places and spoke to many people, but they didn't know what Turface was.
After more searching, I found Turface at a warehouse called "Sierra Turf Supply"....with the word
Turf right there in the name!!! hahaha.

Josh

Josh, I followed the instruction, now I put it into the freezer. I wish it will be OK.

I made it stone hard frozen and melted it with cold and warm water. The result is nothing change it looks same.

Before freezer:

After freezer, frozen:

After melted with cold and warm water:

Just for the second time I put it back into the freezer again.

Just like "Sierra Turf Supply" Turface may be available here too with a different name. It's matter of time I may find Turface just like I found perlite.

Thanks,

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Wed, Jan 23, 13 at 14:26

It looks good to me, and it is the right color too. DE is usually brown, and bentonite clay (the bad kind used in kitty litter that breaks down) is usually light gray or white. Check on the packaging, maybe the ingredients are listed.
In your place i'd send an email to damolin and ask if they have some dealers near you (for larger sized packaging) or if they know about kitty litter brands that use their DE. Though looking at the pics i'm about 98% sure that is it ;)
You are lucky! This should keep the cost of soil down, and as you can see on that link i posted earlier, some people grow plants (bonsai no less) in pure DE without problem.
Personally, i'm going to cut out perlite from my 5-1-1 and use expanded clay, it is quite expensive here and loaded with dust, i buy 50l of clay for 5�, and 10l of perlite costs 4�, out of which i get maybe 3-4 l of right size granules.

Yes, it looks good to me, too. And I like that color!

Josh

Hi Tyo, thank you for the link and the company name. I found this company, it is located in other province it is far away but I got the contact information so it will be easier to find their products. They have cat litter products too.

I checked the package; I found only one ingredient namely burnt clay (kind of clay). It is also mentioned, no mush, can use for absorbing smell and moistness in cellar/basement and garage floor dry (oil or like oil liquid wet). The size (granulat) is 1-3 mm.

Really I am lucky today because of this thread and your tips to find the Truface alternative. Josh's tips to test the cat litter are also very helpful to me.

Here to find the perlite is not easy and very expensive too (online stores). It is not available in the garden centers near my place. I do not see people use perlite a lot here. Recently I did contact the Nordisk Perlite .dk and they allowed me to buy directly from their plant, price also very cheap.

I like this cat litter, the color is also very nice and not dusty.

Thank you Marcy for this thread and thank you again Tyo and Josh for helping me.

I am editing my post again :) Tyo, just I read the link you have given to me and I found the cat litter I bought is in the picture called X-Tra. I was so excited to read the tips so I copied the company name and left for the supermarket. So sorry.

Caelian

This post was edited by chilliwin on Wed, Jan 23, 13 at 18:36

im a noob and all, but it seems to me that cat liter would be treated with chemicals for odor control, absorption etc. I wouldn't want these chemicals in my growing medium.

I have been reading the link Tyo posted and still now I cannot find any harmful chemical to plants. The link is so good.I am so lucky to get this cat litter.

Caelian

There are lists online of how hot different pepper varieties are. For mild to medium heat, check out the New Mexico peppers like Joe E. Parker. There are seed vendors who break down their seed in sweet, mild, medium and hot sections on their web sites, and each has a little description. A five gallon bucket will handle any pepper you can grow.

Speaking of containers, I just received 20, 5+ gallon containers for this year. These pots have 4 holes spaced around the sides near the bottom and 1 in the center bottom. They are the size of a dime and I imagine I may lose plenty of dirt during drainage. Any suggestions on bottom material to thwart that and still allow drainage. Thanks.

Marcy, I am new too and do not have much experiences. I hope Josh, Bruce, Mark and other senior members probably can help you.

Regards,
Caelian

I use insect screen and cut it to size. I had some old screens available, but I have seen it for sale at reasonable price in hardware stores. This works better than using a "drainage layer" of larger particles.

The screen sounds good to me...thanks Ohiofem.

Thank you so much, everyone, your comments and suggestions are awesome! I really appreciate the help.

I am curious, though, where the idea for this 5-1-1- stuff came from? In all the nurseries that I've been to, everyone seems to stress the moisture retaining type of potting soil for containers, or the fertilizing containing same. Do peppers need something special, or does the 5-1-1- just work better?

I'm going to try some cool peppers this year for sure. My gardening catalogs started to arrive over the last two weeks. I'm spending lots of time going ga-ga over the photos... don't we all?

Thanks again,
Marcy-the-newbie

p.s. My sis LOVES superhot peppers--- habanero is a favorite. Are habeneros hard to grow and do they cross pollenate with other peppers? Are there any hotter ones? I thought I'd share the info with her as well. Thx.

Missemerald:

The 5-1-1 mix isn't specific to peppers -- it's a container medium. Not sure who came up with it, but I believe it's origin comes from bonsai tree growers (correct me if I'm wrong, guys). It's just that the 5-1-1 mix has been found to be a superior growing medium for containers. There's also a "gritty mix." I'm not familiar with it though.

And you're right -- the nurseries that I've been to also have no clue as to what the "pine bark fines" mix for containers is all about. They have pine bark fines, but they just sell it as a mini nugget mulch.

As fat as superhots is concerned, habanero USED to be the well-known "hottest in the world." That all changed when the Ghost(Bhut Jalokia) and others came on the scene. Bhuts, Nagas, and Butch T(among others) are the true "superhots" nowadays. Habaneros are candy compared to these.

Habaneros are no harder to grow than any other.. actually The Home Depot's et al have habanero transplants(beginning of April) where I live. probably the easier way to go for 1st time growers.

Good Luck.

Kevin

Teyo: DE in pellet form? The only DE I see here where I'm at comes in a dust like talcum powder.

Kevin

Marcy, 5-1-1 and gritty mix were invented by a member called Al (Tapla) here, see these links from the container gardening forum where he explains in detail how and why it works, i promise it will change your view of container growing forever:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg1221344425812.html?43
- follow the side articles he linked to there for more info on fertilizing, pruning and such

more details about the 5-1-1 and a collection of frequently asked questions:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0212444023053.html?38

the most important step for me was when i realized that container culture is much closer to hydroponics than to in ground growing, though bonsai growers indadvertedly used that already. but only when i read Al's articles did it all fit together.

@Woohooman
yeah there are different kinds of DE, depending on the locale where it is excavated. for instance the one from Denmark is called Moler clay. also it can be calcined or not. the powder form i think is uncalcined (heated to keep structure), and all forms have very wide uses, since it is harmless to humans and animals, but for instance a very good environment friendly insecticide (it damages the chitinous shells of bugs, and makes them dehydrate to death). it is harmless enough to be used as a dewormer and detoxifier for humans and animals, as a filter for beer and wine and so on :) check the wiki page for DE for more info.

as for the previous question about chemicals being added to kitty litter, DE litter is usually the cheapest there is, and as such the perfuming would cost more than the DE, so it is usually free of that stuff. which is good for cats too, since they usually don't like smelly perfumed litter (at least none of mine do).

but keep in mind, not all litter is made from DE, it is actually hard or impossible to find in some places, most kitty litter is made from bentonite clay that turns to mush as soon as it is wetted so if you're going to try it make sure it IS DE.

Very well explained Teyo.
Al said something about his creation of 5.1.1 it is very interesting to me I patched here (may be it is in the link you posted):

"Getting you to follow the soil recipes isn't the object of my offerings re soils. My goal is to make sure you understand the concept, and to understand how you can manipulate your soils' water retention so they work FOR you, instead of against you. The 5:1:1 mix is something you do more by feel, because you often use a bark product right from the bag w/o screening - it didn't have the technical thought put into it that the gritty mix did. still, because it embraces the concept that bigger particles = more porosity, fast drainage, and a short PWT, it stands well above soils based on fine particles when it comes to offering plants the opportunity to grow as close to their genetic potential as possible."

Al is a real genius.

Here Habaneros grew like weed :) they are the easiest chili plants I have ever grown. I have some seedlings they have grown faster than the other chili plants.

Caelian

Wow, you guys nailed it.
Well explained, Teyo and Caelian. Indeed, Al is a genius ;-)

It is also heartening to know that many nurseries are adopting a bark-based mix now...
slowly but surely.

Josh

Marcy, check out Hot Cherry peppers and Bulgarian Carrot peppers. The hot cherry is good for pickling, grilling, and stuffing. it is about half the heat of a jalapeno. The Bulgarian Carrot pepper is about or a tiny bit hotter than a jalapeno and has some sweetness/fruitiness to it. Serranos are pretty cool too. I like eating them ripe they get soft and fruity.

Bill
Speaking of containers, I just received 20, 5+ gallon containers for this year. These pots have 4 holes spaced around the sides near the bottom and 1 in the center bottom. They are the size of a dime and I imagine I may lose plenty of dirt during drainage. Any suggestions on bottom material to thwart that and still allow drainage. Thanks.

Coffee filters can also work. They drain a lil slower, so just be mindful of that. You can also use pebbles and or broken pot pieces to help contain the soil.

just to confirm that im following correctly , you are replacing perlite with turface/kittly litter due to cost savings?

thismembername:

No. The turface replaces peat moss.

Josh's words: *The reason I don't like peat moss is that it hastens the decomposition of the mix, which also leads to
a more messy container - tea-colored effluent as the mix begins to break down. Turface holds moisture
better, receives moisture better when dry, and is durable for long-lasting structure and aeration."

Also, for those who are doing the 5-1-1 for the 1st time, he recommends COARSE perlite -- not that small stuff in the small bags at the big box stores, though Home Depot does carry it in a 2cf bag for 20 bucks or so. I scored last year by looking around and found some at a local nursery -- 5cf/16 bucks! :)

Kevin

Thanks tn gardening.

@thismembername
I'm going to cut out both sphagnum peat that is unavailable here(and frankly i don't see the point of it anyhow), and perlite which is expensive and full of dust. Perlite is 4 times more expensive than the kind of expanded clay i use as a replacement, which i consider better anyhow. If i manage to find it, i will include some zeolite which has a very high nutrient bonding capacity, it would i believe effectivelly replace any kind of organic binding agent like coconut chunks or peat, but it has a larger particle size and keeps the medium structured right.

Thanks, Kevin! Indeed, COARSE Perlite is the best - if it is available and at a good price.
I pay $20 for a 4 cubic foot bag, and it lasts a couple years for me.

Finding substitute ingredients is one of the fun things about customizing a mix.
I've grown plants in 5 parts bark, 2 parts turface. I've grown in 5 parts bark, 1 part
perlite, and 2 parts scoria. I've grown in mixes of nearly pure perlite, with a small
amount of quartzite and bark added. There are truly many combinations that will work....
it's all about finding the right ratio, and then refining the mix for future use.

The reason that the original or traditional 5-1-1 recipe is offered is because it
greatly limits user-error - it offers a greater margin of error, as we say. Watering
habits and fertilizing habits do need to change in accordance, but not so much
that gardening becomes inconvenient or stressful.

Josh

Bumping this post up - I'm interested in hearing how everyone's experiences were this past season and if you might have some photos to share.

Question - has anyone employed a method to reclaim the water that drains from their containers? It seems like it would be rich in nutrients and great for irrigating a raised bed and other plants.

tn_gardening,

I found a great tip a while ago about how to deal with large drainage holes in containers. Use drywall tape. You can find it at the hardware store and cut it down to size-- a regular roll will last a long time (store it inside away from weather to preserve the glue). It will eventually fall off if roots grow through it, but it holds in my mix with no problems, and you can even reuse the pieces that fall off by holding it over the hole while you pour medium around it (so it is held in place by the weight of the medium).

About Pepper Container Size:

I was also interested in the subject a while back and learned from fellow pepper growers that a 5 Gal. container is more than big enough for most peppers. In fact a lot of them can be grown in 2 to 3 Gal. containers, depending on the variety.

BARK BASED MIX:
I remember seeing it used by tree and shrubs growers from decades ago. And they still use it. But what Al (tapla) has done is to find new application for it in container growing, which is admirable. So, as he has said himself, it is the PRINCIPLES of it that is important to understand which are DRAINAGE and moisture RETENTION. In other words, a 511 might work in a lot of applications and then you may find out that 421 is better for your application. This is because NOT all plants have similar moisture preference and drainage requirements. Climates is yet another issue.