This site might help, a bit new to me also. vgkg

Here is a link that might be useful: PC, oops, PermaCulture that is ;o)

Vgkg, thanks for the link; I hadn't checked ATTRA for a while. Their permaculture page is pretty up to date with listing of webboards and similar archival sites.

I hope this forum attracts the practioners as well as interested gardeners.

Gardenfreak, I agree that the introductory passage is not very clear. Let's wait for the pros to arrive and set out a clear definition.

i don't think there is a clear or definitive definition, pc is what you can do, or what fits into your current system.

like i can do much to improve the eco system and environment but someone living in a unit in the middle of a city may not be able to have the same impact.

for me pc can be as complex as you need it or as simple as will suit your standard.

mail len

lens garden page

My definintion of permaculture, simply stated: gardening somewhere between what nature provides and what can be totally man-made gardening, ie an holistic approach to gardening.

Sounds kind of old-fashhioned to me. Kind of like our ancestors gardened, only without all the fancy words and phrases attached----they just did it.

There are a few other things about Permaculture (often shortened to PC) ...one is stacked purpose. One element will have several purposes or functions and each of those functions will have several different elements that perform that function.

Example, I have a good bit of woods off to the west of the meadow and house. The woods has lots of functions. There are paths to walk on and places to sit and places for people to gather. There is room for wildlife and plenty of tree and shrub choices for eating and nesting. The woods are to the west of the house and helps shield the meadow from the sun in the hottest part of the day and makes the food plants less stressed. The trees also act as a windbreak against the primarily southwest winds and that helps plants grow better and cuts some of the wind chill in winter. We also harvest some of the trees for burning in the woodstove. That is a lot of uses for the western woods.

Lets take one of those functions ... like windbreak. The land to the west is a hill and that would also help with wind a little, even if there were no trees. Tender plants may get temporary wind shelters if conditions are harsh. We have a hedgerow planted to the south to help with the wind from that direction too. The orientation of buildings also can help or hinder these functions so that is important too. All of these things work together and if one fails, others take the place of what is lost to some extent.

Redundancy, but not duplication. Does that make sense? And that was just one element (woods) and one function (windbreak) and there are many more.

Fireraven9
What potent blood hath modest May. - Ralph W. Emerson

Yes I agree with the above posts and would like to add...
our responsibility in PC. In addition to working with nature and not against it, but also how we leave the land and control our wastes. Leaving the land after harvesting with the same or better nutrient structure. Being accountable for water, sewage usage and other waste like garbage.
Each of us will have different ideas of what PC means, and will do varying degrees of it. I think it is great!! We don't have to perfect definition to all be working in a similar direction.

Dana

I don't think anyone yet mentioned that the word Permaculture comes from the phrase "Permanent Agricultue" which gives you a sense right there of what it is all about. The best way I like to think about permaculture is taking everything into account to use your land as efficiently and environmentally sound as possible. A great book to read for an easy introduction to the concepts of permaculture is "Gardening For the Future of the Earth." I'm not sure of the authors' names, but it is put out by the Seeds of Change organization. It's a great book, covers some of the pioneers of permaculture.

Here is a link that might be useful: Seeds of Change site

pc is a bit more than gardening or how we garden it is as mentioned above taking responsiblity for the waste you create, in short if you create it then you should recycle it in your system.

when we lived in suburbia we were conserving power and water as part of our responsibility, we also cut our garbage down from filling a large wheelie bin to only having a couple grocery bags of rubbish sitting in the bottom (the bin would only need emptying 5 or 6 times a year not each week). we also economised on water by being aware of how many times the toilet got flushed the first flush to stop was the one that flushed urine just didn't make sense to use 6 litres of water to flush a few cups of urine.

and now in rural that process still continues, when we shop we are considering what type of packaging is involved and tend to buy in containers that we can recycle on site, plastics and glass go to landfill, aluminium goes to the scrap merchant. we bury all out metal cans.

and leaving the land in better condition that what we found it is our agenda.

mail len

lens garden page

Thanks all for the insight--------I'll have to lurk here a while to understand completly. I kinda relate it to contruction in this area, they will level a piece of woods, put in a subdivisoin then come back & plant seedlings. Why can't they work around what is there? I can see taking some of the trees down but ALL of them!!! It really makes me mad they aren't taking the enviroment in consideration at all just their pocket books!!! Take care & God Bless

g'day gardenfreak1,

that is the vandalistic mayhem of developers for you, it's probably so their engineers and designers don't have to have too much brain strain trying to work out where to put roads and infrastructure,

it's the same here we have agriculturists clear felling, they use chains dragged behind big bulldozers either in pairs or triples and just pull everything over. this sort of carnage does nothing to ensure that wind breaks are maintained, or that contours are used, or that trees line creeks and billabongs etc.,.

Not trying to be argumentative, but don't just blame the developers for their clear-cutting practices. Not always, but often clear-cutting results because local, state of federal regulations require that roads and house pads be raised to a certain elevation, generally some set amount above the 100-year flood elevation. The filling and mass-grading is to meet this requirement and can't be done without killing the trees. Part of our responsibility as stewards is to encourage our governments to adopt regulations that allow, or even encourage sustainable development practices.

Would it approach some aspect of permaculture if one gardened in a way where you incorporated your plants (mostly edibles) into the natural flow of your land? I believe that hard economic times may come again, and so am governed in my choice of plants by these concerns. I have pecans, walnuts, and filberts for protein ... sun chokes as a alternative carb ... all kinds of berries for Vitamin C ... quinces (baked) for carbs ... pomegranate, peach, nectarine, and grapes for sweetness ... apples and asian pears ... persimmon for eating and baking. And, of course, vegies for the table. My plants use water, but they deliver food. And I treat the earth gently. Does this fit in the philosophy of permaculture?

sounds ok to me modjadje,

you need to take from pc what fits your system, i don't believe that anything in pc is set in cement.

go to it.

len

The word permaculture was coined by Bill Mollison and David Holmgren from the words permanent agriculture. Today, many permaculture designers, myself, included, see it more as a combnation of the words permanent and culture. Permaculture is an ethichal design system for creating sustainable human environments. This defintion encompasses more than gardening. Among other things it includes housing, transportation, economics and governance.

I am no expert in permaculture, but I became interested in it after reading this newsletter from Seed of Change. I specifically recommend two articles in this newsletter.
Interview with Bill Mollison, and
Permaculture at Home by Emily Skelton
After reading these articles I felt like a had a good basic understanding of permaculture. It's more than just raising your own food, it's kind of like you're engineering your own optimal ecosystem. I'd love to have some of the books they mention to learn more for myself.

Happy reading!

Here is a link that might be useful: Permaculture Articles

This link has a continuation of the Interview with Bill Mollison I just mentioned.

Here is a link that might be useful: Permaculture Article II

sounds like a fancy new name for ecology to me.

Lurking . . .

Those were interesting articles! Best I've seen on explaining permaculture. Who cares really that it borrows from established disciplines? They're pulling a lot of useful info together. Very nice thread, you guys.

Dear Don,
Yes, to your comment in this way; that it is a consciously created ecology that focuses on plants useful to people for food, fiber,building materials, etc. It is not a naturally occurring ecology, but partakes of many useful ideas from the natural world and the study of ecology to make a new system that will be as self-sustaining as possible. However, a permaculture always will need a little work from people to keep the balance on its creator's vision.

thanks for the great PC site!
I ahve been unwittingly gardening and living this way for awhile now if I take your meaning right.
I have some questions as to reusing greywater for gardens.
How would one go about setting this up in a home that was built in 1830? Also is there any law regarding using greywater. I think it a shame that water used to wash clothes, shower, and wash dishes can't be somehow reused to water the landscape.
Smitty48@snet.net

g'day smitty,

there is bound to be a law against it, that is the nature of local government no matter where you live.

here in australia when i lived in suburbia i purchased a unit that i could fit into the bathroom drain pipe to divert that water to the garden, we then used to run the washing machine water to the garden straight from the machine.

if you wash dishes by hand and use earth friendly products this can go straight to the garden as well. the best thing is just do it and tell no one "what they don't know won't get them exited".

mail len

lens garden page

I thought as much.. Sort of a need to know only basis LOL
Thanks