Hithere! There are many forums on here that could come under the permaculture umbrella, like edible landscape, perennials, veggies, herbs, soil/mulch/compost, trees, shrubs, organic, and then whichever niches interest you. I spend a lot of time in house plant forum although that has nothing to do with permaculture.

Almost all forums are slower during the winter, and really when school's in. Lots of Moms and teachers don't have the time during the school year.

An old discussion still kicking around must be a good one...

What do you do, gardenwise, when it's cold out? Not much here except ongoing composting of kitchen scraps, some picture-taking, keeping the leaves raked onto beds, trimming errant tree branches, some light weeding, trying to wait until spring to trim shrubs. It's a good time to neaten up the edges and smother new areas, dream of spring...

purpleinopp, I'm surprised at the quick reply! You hit the nail on the head about why this forum is slow, lot's of overlap as well as the time of year.

Unfortunately, this is the time of year I use these forums the most. Hardly do in the summer actually, because I am busy working with plants. This is my dream of ideas time, and I get a lot of inspiration from what other folks are trying, etc...

On my list this winter, apart from the dreaming/brainstorming of what to try next:
-- seedstarting
-- digging up rootstocks from wild
-- starting cuttings of fruiting plants
-- composting/mulching
-- building and populating small greenhouse

I jumped in and joined the cooking forum on Gardenweb which is very active.

Cooking@THS is what it is called. Super friendly people.

I agree, pretty.gurl! If I ever have a cooking question, I get an answer immediately there. 'Tis the season to eat more!

I have a TON of seeds! I hope I am more organized with them next spring. Plenty of time the next couple months to make an actual plan...

The way I look at it - the days start getting longer in a month. Happy times!

way back in the beginning i think i was there then it was great lots of help being handed out to others to help them realise permaculture was nothing magical just heaps of common sense then we lost a lady from england way i think? she was a tower knowledge and support for promoting the thinking behind permaculture. then along cam the raiders.

the worshippers and promoters of lets sell permaculture, promoting courses and the buying of books which if needed could be borrowed from a library, these people rarely passed on much free help, so like other forums i've been some very vibrant it dried up.

we even listed a link to a free introduction to permaculture at the time, but the rot had set in.

that's where this forum is now i check it once a week just in case.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens permaculture essay.

Thanks Len for a bit of the history. I had no idea there even was a Permaculture Forum until a couple weeks ago. Some larger topics have certainly been "split" into too many narrow forums I think... like why does there really need to be a vermicomposting forum, when the Soil and Compost Forum is so happening? Similarly, I'm sure Permaculture could incorporate a dozen other smaller forums, which might add to the traffic and usefulness here...

I'm still pining for my regional forum, Southwestern Gardening though... It also used to be pretty happening, but has really really sucked over the past two or three years. More than anything I would like to exchange info with folks who are doing similar things in the same climate.

Well there seems to be enough folks popping in to hold up a conversation. So how did you get here? What sparked your interest in permaculture?

Mine came on gradually. The first step was actually my lawn. I'd mowed for years but when I bought a house, I wanted to know how to have "a good lawn." Researching this, I was introduced to the idea that it's OK to have little flowers in the lawn, that it doesn't HAVE to be all one kind of grass, or even all grass, or even grass at all, my lawn can be a "mowed area in which anything soft, green, and won't give us a rash is welcome to grow, especially if it makes tiny flowers." Whatever's there, just mow it, and let the clippings fall back in. That was back in OH but I finally have this here in AL. I LOVE a lawn that turns purple and pink in the spring. I even bought 2 books about why people have lawns and how they came into existence.

Then I started getting into composting and keeping our leaves as a resource instead of a thing that should be bagged and discarded, as well as kitchen scraps, pulled weeds, and really getting into decomposition and soil improvement.

My next revelation was that I could garden without buying any packages of stuff like ferts and cides. If I'm spending money on gardening, it's plants, seeds, tools, occasional mulch. Not packages of fabricated and processed stuff except for potted plants that need a little help sometimes.

If I had just read this at the beginning of my journey, the trip could have been a much shorter one.

My journey to permaculture happened by accident. I grew tired of the anger, hate, political, and end of the world talk found on most other forums. My main focus has always been gardening so through searching gardening forums I stumbled upon permaculture. I soon realized that this was the "crazy" stuff my friend had been doing for months. I do admit that I am not a 100% devotee. As with other methods, I take what I need from it.

my pc journey occurred from being a natural organic gardener, but about 30 or so years ago the former of permaculture introduced it on tv over here by demonstrating throwing an old inner spring mattress on the ground, cutting a hole through it, planting a banana and then mulching teh lot thus demonstrating one of permacultures points of using zone 00 the brain and working out how to minimise off property waste and to recycle as much of what you bring in.

then it all went quiet as prematurely the founder and his cohorts traveled the globe and introduced it with great applause, but sadly on their return home it was realised that hey? there was nothing but accolades the money bank was empty, thus the rot set in.

so then about 15 or so years ago well into my gardening pc raised its head in my thinking, i bought the paper back intro' to pc book which i have but barely glanced at, i paid for me good money to attend a 2 day TAFE intro' to pc course held at one of the colleges, i sat there nodding my head at most of what the lecturer said (you see under organic gardening i was already doing most of it) of course i did learn somethings ie.,. sheet mulching which helped me simplify my gardening, contours which helped me improve the land we once had, we rip swaled, and of course swales and berms but as i said we have not really used to obligatory channel swale we ripped rows instead worked a treat.

so here we are today 30 years on with what was a good thing at the time now languishing at the hands of those who killed what might have been the goose that laid the golden (golden egg may not mean wealth) by those who promote pc for sale, and all who do a course then imaging they too can hang out their shingles to make a buck or 2.

where those at the top do become visible there is still a cost in what appears free lots of top heavy ego sadly.

then when some doctrines pop in dare i say it veganism(don't ask what i saw happen) and other worships it drives people away.

so now after a long time of weekly checking this group seems ready to fire again?

that's it in a nutshell

len

Len, it sounds like you're saying the term was coined by some folks who wanted to use the concept to make money. Sure enough, according to Wiki, the term seems to have been invented in the late 70's and there has been contention regarding copyrights of this word. All fascinating.

Extrapolating this term to a suburban yard may be a stretch in regard to its' original intent which, from extremely brief investigation, seems to have been used for a large-ish agriculture operation, large food crops. I just like it better than saying organic, a term that's so obtuse it is usually completely misunderstood by most, and has such negative connotations because of fringe elements with ridiculous ideas.

If I understand you correctly, Len, permaculture is not the generic term I thought it was. One of the books I bought makes the distinction as industrial lawn vs. freedom lawn, and encourages composting the natural resources of the property and the eradication of grassy areas not used for playing or walking in favor of mulched beds of trees, shrubs, flowers, etc... Planting to suit ones' climate so irrigation is not necessary, shade for the house in a warm location, yada yada yada... It's called Redesigning the American Lawn; A Search for Environmental Harmony, if anyone's interested. The other one explains why we're all out there mowing every weekend, how it got like that, The Lawn; A History of an American Obsession. Although the author focuses on the US, the lawn phenom is a global thing that has evolved differently in different places, and even differently in different parts of the US, where conditions do not allow the same grass types and maintenance practices in all locations.

Do you think the term permaculture has become generic? As someone who heard it within the past few years, it seemed so to me. I think it's a good word that the average person can latch onto in regard to trying to be more natural and long-term responsible stewards of whatever size piece of land they have. I guess if enough people use it that way, that's what it will mean...

g'day purple,

yes you are starting to get the picture permaculture aka: permanent culture or permanent agriculture. it has no intellectual property so though an attempt was made the term can't be corporatised if it was that would mean the death knoll, as others like my self would not be able to use the name without achieving one of their diplomas (diploma mind you it is not a career path after all).

they had a chat at pri permaculture not long ago, initially a course might cost $66AUD to $700AUD for a 1 or 2 week course can't remember well now, then it skyrocketed up #1200AUD to $1600AUD ridiculous amount and obviously not there to attract the grass roots level. then blow me down they called for the course fee to go to $20,000AUD and all the worshipers thought that charging that would only be fair. all that for something offered free 30 years ago.

grass roots folk forget 'em hey?

one bloke did a course over USA way and summed it up like this, he said it was like a working holiday but he paid to help with the course teachers projects and spent free time just reading books in the library on site he said not much tuition or discussion.

another said just like paying to be a WWHOOFER doing someone elses projects. and it appears those at the top are sort after and charge the dearest.

anyhow at the end of the day it is a conglomeration of many practises, gaia; mandella, organic(over 90%) and fukuoka farming, all based on common sense no zones needed well maybe apart from 00 the brain and possibly 0 the house.

sad in lots of ways that ego's get in the road, i'll no doubt have fingers pointed my way, but could care less i offer nothing for sale all free.

anyhow maybe we should take the forum back and trounce any sales people or promoters for profit.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens garden page

Thanks so much for the info. I will do what I can to make people aware of this word as a generic term, an excellent one without so much political baggage as organic. Within the industry in this country, there may be some political connotation, I have no idea, but not to the average person. I'm not going to get too down on people for their attempts at capitalism. They can only earn what people are willing to pay, and altruism doesn't pay the bills.

If there's a thread or post here you think is just advertising, report it using the "contact us" link at the bottom of every Gardenweb page. Include a link and the user's name if not the originator of the thread. Unfortunately, I do this several times per week but it only takes about 60 seconds. Spam is definitely removed.

Just a quick note to say that I am interested in this topic and plan to visit here more often especially come springtime.

I am in a suburban setting where very few people grow vegetables, fruit, nuts etc. Everyone is too busy and prefers to buy what they need. Me, I want to learn first hand how to produce my own vegetables, fruit, nuts etc. in a sustainable way. I enjoy it and I think that it is a good skill to have. My kids see me having a good time doing this and they join me. That's really nice.

I have a front yard raised container garden. Beyond buying tools and containers I am interested in supplementing my family food with edibles that I grow and in getting first hand knowledge of how to do this successfully such that if I ever had to do this on a larger scale I would have a fighting chance. I do not like the idea of buying plants, soil, insecticides, fertilizer, etc. every year. I use heirloom seeds, rainwater, natural pest repellants, composting e.g. to experience a sustainable full life cycle. I have yet to try to get seed from biennials like beets and carrots but am am interested in trying soon.

g'day paul,

being in suburbia is not an insurmountable issue, lots of container gardening happening have a look in my site index on the front page for the vegetable patch it is a link to a container gardener in the suburbs of brisbane.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: the vege' patch(not lens)

Nothing wrong with container gardening. In fact, I am starting to prefer it and I have almost 2 acres of land to play with out here in the country. With the crazy weather cycle we are in, the containers allow me more control and I will be able to protect the plants from Mother Nature.

Like I said earlier, I take what I need from the practical applications of permaculture and do my own thing.

Agreed, pretty.g. One of my goals when I moved here was to make the yard easier to mow, with less grass and eliminating a bunch of odd corners that are just a pain and cause the mower to run so much longer as one tries to do all of that maneuvering. Now they are almost all sweeping curves, and so much more space is not mowed. We go nuts playing with whatever flower/veggie seeds we like, and I've been adding more carefree shrubs and trees.

I popped in here to see if anyone had some ideas on how to lay out a mandala garden, and am really dissappointed to find that so many people don't even know what permaculture IS. It is not a gardening method or style. In a nutshell, it is an approach to living that minimizes inputs and maximize yields (to people and animals). Gardening is just a part of the paradigm.

Hi LM. As you can see, you're in like company. Good to hear from you. I hope you'll start a thread about starting your garden.

yep a way to achieve high productivity simply and more sustainably, whilst managing and improving the habitat we can influence. all starts with gardening so that factor can't be removed from it, it has developed into a worship following, and has no intellectual material it can claim ownership of.

i saw pc introduced on tv over here over 30 years ago now, and it has been milked for what it's worth by the founding echelon that as you can see now it has no interest to the grassroots level people. it's called killing the goose that may have laid the golden egg, there are under lying beliefs in mythology.

many permacutlure groups have gone under lots of good down to earth people contact gone, this forum hangs on by a thread, in early days i visited daily for the chat it generated now i look in weekly to see if i can add a word, the myth needs to be taken out of it.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens permaculture essay

My friend has some hugels. Veggies grow so awesome in them! I tend to go to the seed exchange, round robin, frugal gardening (a very dead site) Florida gardening (I'm only 8 miles from the border) and the vegetable gardening forum. I will have to check out the cooking forum!!

Zackey, I have been using mini hugel beds and hugelpots with great success.

I can't say enough good things about the cooking forum on here. I hope you enjoy your visit.

For permaculture discussion, check out permies dot com, it gets a lot of traffic

this is what we've been doing of late:

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens permaculture essay

all 6 beds done now sometime when money permits a poly hoop cover. for now we are getting good rain for the 1st time since end of july.

len

Alexander3, to quote gardenlen:

"the worshippers and promoters of lets sell permaculture, promoting courses and the buying of books which if needed could be borrowed from a library, these people rarely passed on much free help."

I find permies.com to be one of the most hypocritical forums on the internet. That is why I said that I take what I need from it. I'm not one of them and never wish to be acknowledged as such.

This post was edited by pretty.gurl on Thu, Jan 24, 13 at 19:30

Looks good gardenlen, what are you going to plant there?

bit late,

that will be our brassica bed it has fallowed for around 6 weeks so far got some pak choi and broccolli seedlings coming on, and planted cauliflower seeds yesterday.

should be our best brassica season yet, had good rain this year.

i am aware of that permie site in the US have contributed there from time to time a bit dictatorial, over here the permies more into wanting to manipulate politics and low humanity base.

man's inhumanity to man rules supreme

len

Used to be here on Gardenweb a lot but the software just got too unwieldy; no quote, no list of responses, it's just sooooo difficult to work with. Even permies.com, which is volunteer-run and bare bones, has a page that lists all the threads you've posted in. Now I'm back because injured & out of work and suddenly working on 1.5 abandoned acres. This board is still painful but it's better than TV.

Doing hugelculture in a crap pool that was 20K to fix. Yeay asparagus!

Agreed that the technology is somewhat dated but the content is very good.

FYI here's a way to check on your own posts:

http://search.gardenweb.com/search/nph-ind.cgi?searchfor=gw&term=Paul_30068

Replace the "term" parameter at the end with your user ID.

Here is a link that might be useful: a link to my posts

Yes, you can search for your name in a particular forum, or throughout the entire site. Or someone else's name, or whatever other terms you might seek. Glad to have you back, but sorry about your injury.

I like asparagus too!

mmmm! dunno?

been here for at least a decade, nowadays for the past years no issues logging in or following not worse, better than other forums.

one forum i need to log in just about every time i want to use if even after checking keep me logged in box.

anyhow no thumb twiddling here all gardens now built and well into planting bird at least habitat trees and food tree plus others.

been getting very good rain for 6 weeks now after struggling through over 6 month dry, lost some things but most replaced now.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens permaculture essay

Rant:

Once the yuppies get ahold of an idea to sell for big bucks... once packaged, the grassroots are instantly fried when it comes to those who's lives could truly benefit from its concept--the poor. The assumption now rules of, "if someone can make money off implementing these ideas, so am I". Well, not everyone is out to become a wealthy organic permie farmer! Mollison and Holmgren brought the narrow growth of permaculture upon themselves from the get-go by continually being paid big bucks to hoick permaculture to the non-poor, (who, more often than not--and much to everyone's chagrin, have freebooted permaculture's basic ideals and actually make them work--without any "experts" fancy-schmancy financial input!) Permaculture founders could have burst on the scene for free for the greater good of all Mankind, like Alexander Graham Bell's (who's freely given inventions are still with us). But, nooooo.....

There goes a profoundly worthwhile ideal before it ever got off the global ground and changed the world. Nowadays you cannot get within an official "permaculture course" outside of a few thousand bucks. Greed rules, even there. Nothing changed, Bill and Dave. Just the scenery inside your heads. And don't ever believe that they don't make money off permaculture. Their conference speaking fees rival former president Clinton's.

But, thank God for the internet, where anyone can search out permaculture basics and take it from there, without expensive "permie teachers" droning on. IF they have access to a computer, that is. Few poor do.

Len, I like your bed! Does the steel draw heat into the bed or the other way around?

Seems like I redesign my bed concept every year. I don't tear down the old ones, just put in a new one. I think my interests probably fall best in to the permaculture category, though I didn't aim for that. Right now I'm on the lookout for perennial greens and trying to figure out the best way to position them in my hot dry zone 10