Hi Heather,

I'm glad you decided to stop lurking and start posting. It is nice to "meet" you.

I assume you mean Early Blight (Alternaria solari) and not Late Blight (Phytopthera infestans) since EB is very common here and LB much less so.

First of all, understand that EB is the most widespread disease of tomatoes in the country and it is literally everywhere. So, while you can take certain steps to clean up your garden after having plants infected with it, there is no way you can clean up your garden well enough to get rid of all of it. And, it wouldn't matter if you could sterilize everything, including the soil, the EB will return pretty much every year. I have noticed it is much less common in drier areas than in wetter areas and also less common in drought years than in average to wet years.

I always remove and dispose of infected foliage in a compost pile that I consider a "waste" pile, i.e. the stuff I pile up and let decompose there stays there forever because that compost pile is intended to heal a badly eroded spot out in a pasture several hundred feet from the garden. If I didn't have a large piece of property and a place to pile it up and leave it, I'd bag it and haul it to the dump. I suppose you could burn it if you want, but it isn't really necessary.

There's no point in destroying the mulch if you don't want to. It is your option to rototill it into the soil if you want. The EB is likely in your soil anyway, so you aren't spreading EB to a place where it doesn't exist--it is already there.

I wouldn't burn the mulch in the garden. You want soil that is healthy, alive and full of microorganisms that help give it life and structure. Burning would destroy all that soil life and that would be bad for your plants.

I would disinfect all the cages. You can do it now, or you can do it in the spring before you put the cages in the garden....or you can double up by disinfecting the cages now and again in the spring. You can use a bleach solution.

The number one way to help your plants resist EB is to spray preventively with the fungicide of your choice, i.e. Kocide copper if you're strictly organic or chlorothalonil (Daconil) if you don't mind using a synthetic fungicide. Even better, alternate spraying the two so that the EB in your garden doesn't become immune to one or the other. It is much earlier to prevent EB than to 'cure' it once it arrives.

If you have space to rotate your tomatoes from one bed to another on a 2, 3 or 4 year rotation, that helps too. However, I still think EB will find tomato plants wherever they may be.

To help cut down on EB next year, be sure to mulch to reduce soil splash...and it is important to mulch the same day the plants go into the ground if you can. Keeping water off your plant foliage as much as possible helps a lot, so only water using drip irrigation or soaker hoses. If you're in a part of the state that has high humidity and high rainfall, it will be hard to keep the foliage dry, but just do the best you can. Mulch everywhere....pathways included.

Early Blight is everywhere and scientists have been working for over 40 years to breed plants that are resistant to Early Blight with very little success. I am going to grow one variety from Johnny's Select Seeds next year that is said to be tolerant of or resistant to EB. We'll see if it is, won't we? Another EB resistant variety is due on the market in 2010. It is from Dr. Randy Gardener's breeding program and is called Mountain Magic.

The good thing about early blight is that it is only a foliage disease and while it may affect a plant's production and appearance, it doesn't usually kill the plant like the systemic diseases do. So, while EB seems bad when it hits, it actually could be much worse if your plants had one of the systemic wilt diseases.

Good luck cleaning up after the EB. By the way, I do what I can, but I don't knock myself out or wear myself out because I know EB is soilborne and windborne and it is going to find its way into my garden and onto my plants most years no matter what I do. While good sanitation helps, you aren't going to be able to prevent early blight just by cleaning up the garden very well this year.

One thing about gardening....this is only so much that we can control, and between the weather, the insects and the diseases, we have a whole lot less control than we think we do!

I am sure Jay and others will have suggestions as well.

Dawn

Dawn
All I can say, in addition to your more learned and expert advice, is that after the downpours during the past month, then the humidity, followed by high temperatures, some of my toms were looking like goners. Some were the tomatos I'd planted first, (late start) and loaded with fruits that I didn't feel like I could afford to loose. Then there were some of the babies, small to medium size, that I'd planted mid-summer that were starting to show some growth, blossomset and some fruit setting. In my desparation I sprayed a light chlorine bleach solution on every tomato plant in the garden, and then watched to see what would happen.

As to date, there is now completely dried up foliage on those plants that had been affected, but since the cooler weather, none have died or shown further signs of further disease progression, and in fact have started exploding with new growth.

Oh, there may be a few tom's that I really should have pulled that were rather on the puny side to start with, but they still have some decent unripened almost mature fruit on them, so I think I'm going to spray them again within the next few days, and again, wait and see what happens :)
In between the chlorine bleach spraying til now, we've had a couple of light rains which I hoped wouldn't start the problem up all over again. I know everyone must cringe when reading what I did, but well, all I can say is that at least for me, it seems to have worked and my tomato plants are growing like crazy.

I have some powdery mildew on other plants like squash and cantaloupe vines because of the wetness, and I'm thinking about giving them a treatment as well cause the Neem Oil hasn't really done the trick as promised on the label.

Barbara

Hi Heather,
First I want to extend a big welcome to you and then will add my 2 cents. As you've already learned there is many opinions on how to handle disease problems in the garden especially tomato diseases. I listened to a very informative online webcast by Cornell and Rutgers. And have talked to and read the opinions of area growers and horticulturists in my area. And they vary and conflict at times. I believe some of that is due to their area and the conditions they garden under. I'm using a long way to say I've found no concrete right way.

Now back to soil and wind borne diseases. I will tell you what I plan to do after my research. I will disinfect all cages and garden tools this fall and again next spring. That includes the tiller. I plan on turning my garden over this fall with a 2 bottom mold board. There are those on both sides of this issue. Another problem is we have had some cold weather the last few years but not the extended cold where the ground froze up to a foot deep.. I don't feel turning the mulch into the soil will hurt. That is the opinion of most I've read and talked too. If it doesn't help I haven't lost anything. I will soak all tomato and pepper seeds in a chlorine solution before planting. Again I will disinfect anything I use even when starting plants. I start all of my plants but if buying be very careful where you buy them. I'm sure you've read the reports about late blight and the plant supplier. I will say I was in Amarillo, TX two weeks ago. A big box store had some very nice tomato plants from another source that looked healthy. They had a rack from this source that looked terrible. They needed to go to the dumpster. Now they could of got infected after they were brought there. Not accusing just stating what I saw. I have had Septoria and the wilt this year along with EB and a few others. I head straight to the dumpster with any infected plants. I don't take a chance. Also rotation is good. And the last few years as I've increased the number of plants I've done less of that. Going to try to at least have one year in between if not two in the main garden. I have areas where I've grown tomatoes for several years in a row and just stagger holes from year to year and haven't had any problems. In closing on this subject to condense what I've said I feel the importants things are clean disinfected equipment, tools and cages. Seeds and plants need to be clean. Garden needs to be cleaned of all old debris and tomato plant remains. How you achieve this is your decision. In my opinion tilling in won't hurt.

Barbara as I'm sure you've read I use clorox on many things. Haven't tried it on plants. I did use the rubbing alcohol on several and overall feel it helped. Anyway those plats have improved. And again there is mixed opinions on this. The one I tend to go with is in our climate with the wind spores ect. move around. In some cases at least if you use clorox, rubbing alcohol or something else you can stop those on the hairs of the stems from blowing around. I agree about Neem oil. What concentration are you applying? I usually try a new product and concentration on one or two plants to make sure I don't have it to strong. Then apply to everything if I feel there is a chance of it helping.

Have a great Labor Day weekend. Jay

Barbara,

I have been yanking and pulling the spring plants and am down to less than a dozen of them. Probably will be down to about six by the end of the weekend. None of them look good at all---sad, sickly and pathetic are the words that come to mind---but they have been producing. The 100 degree days in late August just ate their lunch, and the spider mites, leaf-footed bugs, stink bugs and grasshoppers finished them off. I'm not even sorry to see them go because they look sad. The six I'm keeping may or may not make it through the fall. It just depends on whether they keep producing well or not.

The fall plants I set out in July have just sat there and grown very, very slowly. They had more trouble in the heat than my fall transplants usually do. They are just now beginning to put out some good growth after sitting and looking sad for a long time. The cherries already have fruit, and one is producing ripe fruit, but the others are just now blooming or have just a couple of tomatoes that have set. They look better than the older plants but have had a little Septoria Leaf Spot.

I love tomatoes and obviously hope for continued fall production, but if all the plants suddenly died tomorrow, I'd just yank them out and move on. I have all kinds of tomatoes canned, dehydrated and frozen for winter, so I'm a happy camper.

I do have to say that the saddest day 'in the garden' around here is the day we eat what we know is the very, very last fresh ripe tomato. Sometimes that day is in November and sometimes it is in December. Regardless when it occurs, it is a 'sad' day.

I always think that I'll keep a plant going in a container deep into fall...or winter...but it never works out. At some point I forget to drag it into the garage at night and it freezes, or the deer find the container and eat the plant....or something. And, no matter how many tomatoes I put up for the non-gardening season, we always eat them all long before we're getting ripe ones again in late spring.

Jay,

The tiller! Yikes! I always disinfect hand tools and pruners but never thought about disinfecting the tiller. Guess I'd have to remember to do that.

Yeterday I saw a fresh shipment of tomato plants at the Gainesville Wal-mart. They were from BP and looked great. In fact, they looked so good that I was tempted to buy some. I didn't though, because I don't really have space for them, and I do think early Sept. is late to set out fall tomato plants, even in extreme south-central OK.

These were, in fact, the best-looking Bonnie plants I've seen all year. They looked so good that I was shocked. LOL

I do think there are some big lessons to be learned from the east coast's "late blight fiasco" this year....and I'd say one of those lessons is that it is not too wise for every store to get their plants from the same big wholesaler. I hate to see BP take all the blame because I am sure they sprayed their plants preventively with fungicides in their greenhouses and I'd bet that those plants mostly contracted LB after leaving the greenhouses.

I wonder how much all the LB issues will affect Bonnie's plant sales next spring? I wonder if the big box stores will look for a different supplier, or if they are locked into long-term contracts?

Finally, with regards to Late Blight, I feel some concern that it may flare up here in our September or October weather. Our cooler fall days and nights, plus the increasing amounts of rain, are the conditions it likes. The closest reports of late blight I've seen have been in parts of Missouri. I hope it doesn't show up here.

Dawn

Dawn,
I guess I'm a creature of my past. When farmers were trying to stop the spread of bindweed many would clean combines before moving to another field. Then figured out later they should of cleaned underneath the tractors, pu's and trucks. So I err sometimes on the side of caution. I figure if I'm going to clean any I should clean all.

I don't blame BP as I feel there has been no proof at what stage the plants picked it up. My guess is somewhere after the plants left the greenhouses. I understand they can make a few stops and transfers before they arrive at the big box store. I was wondering the same thing as you about using other sources. I know the Home Depot had some beautiful plants from another source I hadn't heard of. Dark green thick stems ect. . Really nice. Was wondering if they had brought them in due to the fact of how the BP plants looked. I will say the BP plants looked to of been there longer. I blame the store and BP for not removing them. A few were completely dead. But with the wind borne diseases and our winds they could of got them after arrival.

I've been using some of the organic based BP liquid fertilizer on some of my container plants. Thought they needed a boost. Has really helped. I think it is a soy based product. Would have to look. I had sprayed once or twice with Neptune's harvest and about out of it. And thought rather than order more this late would just try their product. I've bought great plants from Bonnies before. In fact I have always like the Bonnie's Original and thinking of trying their Bonnies Select next year.

I hope we all avoid the late blight this fall. But conditions maybe right and we all maybe hit. I hope we all can just enjoy a good fall harvest after the year we've had. Jay

Hey, Heather!

Jay and Barbara, I want to know what ratio of alcohol to water and bleach to water that you use to spray your plants. And how strong should the bleach solution be when washing things down?

I did the Neem oil thing this year, and it helped somewhat. When my plants start turning brown, it stunts the growth of whatever fruit is on the vine. So this year when the plants got brown except for the very tops, I pruned them back to only about 8" above the ground. Some of the plants have put on new growth and are even blooming. Others are still sitting there green, but have not put on new leaves and when you look down at the cut ends of the stems, they have hollowed out for at least the top inch and maybe further, I don't know.

I have decided that one thing I have been doing wrong is that I have been planting my tomatoes too close together. By early July they are all growing into each other and so if one has a disease, they are all at risk. I have limited space and raised beds so I have thought it would be OK to plant closer together than in a regular garden but I'm rethinking that because of the disease. Next year I will leave space enough between each tomato to plant carrots, beets or something else that grows mostly underground and see if that helps. For the last several years we have had a lot of rain in the spring. Even without the rain, I've noticed that tomato vines and leaves seem to be a little on the moist side all the time. Maybe they 'sweat' or something. In any case, even when the soil is dry, I've noticed mosquitoes amongst the tomatoes.

I don't normally buy tomato plants because of the costs involved. I bought plants one year from Tomato Man and you can rack up quite a total bill at $2.50 per plant. They might cost more than that now, I haven't been back since Darryl died.

I also mulched heavily this year with hay that had been in a friends barn for probably ten years. I haven't had a problem with weeds from the hay. But the Bermuda still runners underneath and comes out at the next mile-marker, or anywhere in the hay where it can poke out it's head. I'm not sure the mulching has helped with water retention, mostly because I've gone out to work in the garden after a rain and the soil is dry under the mulch. This is not a good thing when you have raised beds, and I've found myself having to water during the past few months a lot more than usual. That said, I don't know how I'd keep the Bermuda out of the beds without the mulch. Ruth Stout's methods haven't worked for me nearly as well as they worked for her. But then she wasn't gardening in Oklahoma.

I read somewhere that if you plant cabbage where tomatoes were before, the cabbage "cleans" the soil. So maybe it would work well to plant cabbage between the tomato plants. I might give that a try. I also plan to plant tomatoes next spring in the bed where I grew cabbage this year, to test out the theory.

I'm not really worried about late blight for myself this year, as I don't have many tomato plants left to lose. I got enough this year to can 28 quarts and for DH to eat all the ripe ones he wanted, and for 8 pints of salsa, so that's better than last year. I would have preferred to have had at least two or three times as much canned by now, in order to last till next summer, and to have enough so I could've made my own tomato juice, but I'm grateful for what I got. I really miss those U-Pick farms in Indiana. We have what they call a "Farmer's Market" here, and there's a tent that's been out in the Atwood's parking lot for most of the summer, but the prices at both places are not low enough to make it worth it to can.

All,
Good, my question answered before I even asked it. I was wondering, Hmmmm, if I could use a hose end sprayer full of bleach and wet the ground to the point of runoff and kill this monster known as early blight. The lingering question in the back of my mind was whether I would rob the ground of it's life giving propertys such as bacteria etc. Dawn pretty much answered it for me. Guess I'll just have to live with it.
Bill

Ilene,
When I learned about using rubbing alcohol I wasn't told an amount for certain. Only that you can spray it full strength out of the bottle and not hurt anything. And that comment was made assuring me it was safe to use and not to worry about if I applied it a little too strong. But others that have used it for an insecticide since have said it can burn the leaves of plants. And they were using it more on flowers. So some conflicting information there. I've mainly experimented a little after I learned about it. I've used it at reates from 2 ounces per gallon up to 50% strength. And my use wasn't enough to form any concrete conclusions. Most of the time I sprayed at close to wide open on my hose end sprayer and will have to see what that is. I will try the lower rates more next year as the higher ones could get expensive if doing a lot of plants. In conclusion I can't give you a firm rate to use. If I hear or read anymore I will post it. I was told you could spray with anything else you were using as soon as it dried. As the alcohol evaporated. I felt I saw better results from those I sprayed of an evening and waited till at least the next morning to spray with something else.

On Clorox to clean with. I'm probably going overboard a little. As I pull cages I spray them with a bacterial disinfectant like you use in the bathroom ect. At the strength recommended. Which is usually 1-2 tablespoons per gallon. Then come back and spray with a clorox solution either as high as my hose end sprayer goes or 20% strength if using a hand held sprayer. And then wash well first with some liquid dish soap and then plain water. And this maybe the only year I go to this extreme. I just feel I have got my cages and everything contaminated and need to make sure they are cleaned up well. Using the hose end sprayers it doesn't take long. A little longer with the hand held. You can read recommendations for various strengths. i'm going a little stronger as an insurance measure. Jay

Bill,

One problem those of us who live in rural areas face is the the early blight spores can survive not only on tomato plant debris but also on the native nightshade (solanaea or solanum) plants that grow wild along fencerows and in pastures and commonly remain standing all winter. I don't know if you have them there, but we have tons of nightshade plants, like horsenettle and bufflao bur here. So, even if you clean up and dispose of all infected debris, and plow or rototill the soil good to turn under infected soil/mulch, if you have nightshade plants in adjoining pastures, they can harbor it.

I make it worse for myself by growing several varieties of daturas and brugansias that might harbor spores. However, none of my daturas or brugmansias have ever had early blight....still I worry that might serve as a repository for the spores.

Jay,

It is bad enough that I have to clean house. I have to clean up the yard. I have to clean up the garden. Now, I am going to have to clean up the tomato cages. That's a lot of cleaning! LOL

One thing you can say about good gardeners....they are not lazy, and in fact, you could argue that they are workaholics....bordering on being obsessive. Don't worry, I'm describing myself...not y'all. : )

Dawn

Ilene
Concerning your question to me about how much to dilute the chlorine bleach to spray on tomatos. Mine was an adventure of trial and error. With all the rain and high humidity, I either had to try something new that worked, or loose all my tomatos. Some of them even had the deadly darkened stems. So, what I did was use a dilute solution by adding just enough bleach until I could lightly smell it, going easy first time around, unstead of an overkill I knew I'd be sorry for later. I used a hand held sprayer in the evening, so as not to cause sun damage. It took a few days, but now the affected leaves are all "crispy critters" and still on the plants. But new foliage growth and fruiting now, with no extra signs of blight. So, at least for me, the experiment worked. One thing I know about chlorine bleach is that it's unmatched for killing all kinds of fungus.
I had the last few days of "couldn't get around to it" on some needed garden work, one of which was to go back and spray the chlorine bleach on powdery mildew on my squash and pumpkin plants. And I don't think it's going to affect the taste of quality of either the tomatos or the squash either. The plants look healthier than ever. Of course the cooler weather hasn't hurt either! We're all grateful for that in more ways than one :)
You might try the bleach remedy on a couple of affected plants and see what happens, if you feel you don't have anything to loose by doing so.
Fortunately, you already have lots of quarts canned up, but all of us want to keep those fresh tomatos coming on just as long as we can. Like Dawn said, the saddest day in the gardening end is when that last fresh tomato is gone and we have to wait a whole season for the next crop :(

Barbara

Barbara,

Y'all are having cooler weather? Oooh, how much cooler? It was 97 degrees on our front porch in the shade today, and I don't have to tell you what the broccoli and cabbage plants think of that!

I'm hoping for cooler weather by Friday. Every time they say it will get cooler, something happens and it doesn't. I'm beginning to think someone in central OK is grabbing ahold of that cold front and clutching it tightly to themselves and not letting it drift on down south. I'm not blaming anyone specific, but if any of you are keeping that cold front from rolling down south, please set it free and send it on down. : ) I've completely given up hoping for rain to fall cause it just isn't going to happen.

I will say the 97 degrees does feel somewhat better than 100 or 102 or 104, but not much. The nights are cooler though, and that does help some. If I hurry outside around sunrise, I can get in a good couple of hours before the heat really spikes.

Using bleach in the garden makes me nervous and I am not ready to try it, but I'm glad it is working for you.

Today, I brought in about 15 ripe tomatoes so now I've got a new bowl started to replace all the ones I've used up these last two days making salsa and dehydrating. The little ones are about completely done for a while, except for Tess's Land Race Currant which doesn't stop producing until it dies. The summer plants are just pooped out and I'm yanking them at the rate of about one a day....Black Cherry comes out tomorrow. The fall plants are starting to produce ripe cherries, but not in the quantities needed to dehydrate. They are producing enough for salads and such though.

I'm already not looking forward to that saddest day....the day of the 'last tomato'. Oh, I hope it is still months away!

Dawn

Ilene
I forgot to comment on your mulch situation. From what I've read, and then personally experienced in my own heavily mulched garden is that if the mulch is placed too close, or right up against the plants, it leaves no place for the rain to enter in. For example, when mulch is too close to the plant, when there is a light rain, the mulch soaks up all the rain, and none gets through to the plant where it's needed.
When we get a heavy rain, the mulch receives the first of the rain, and then as it becomes saturated, then some may filter down into the roots of the plant. So-it's best to keep a certain amount of unmulched area around each plant where water and rain can enter.
Also, in areas like your's where there is perhaps overly abundant rainfall at times, it makes me wonder whether or not mulch doesn't increase the detrimental humidity around plants such as tomatos, and add to the likelihood of harboring, or encouraging fungal and other diseases. The mulch in my garden today is very wet and soppy after an early morning rain. The humidity level is 67 % in the area, but surely it's much more than that in the mulched areas in my garden.
So, like you say Ruth Stout never gardened in Oklahoma, Mulch can definately be a big bonus insofar as adding tilth to the soil, controlling weeds, conserving moisture, etc, but it can have drawbacks as we're finding out.

What I'm trying to do, at least when we don't get sufficient rain is to turn on my drip irrigation, which is basically underneath the mulch. That seems to help.

Also, you commented on planting too close. Yes, I had a tendency to do that as well, which I am not going to repeat with tomatos next year. They need good air circulation. I too have noticed that when touched, they have a feeling of "wetness" even when it hasn't been raining. Strange huh?
Well, maybe we can all continue to learn and help from each other. I have certainly benefited from y'all's advice, and comments.
Anyways, from the way you've described your garden, the pics and amount of produce and canning you put up, your garden was a great success this summer :)

Still learnin, and still doin and loven it!
Barbara

Thanks for all the info guys :)

It has been a very busy few days and I havent had the time to read. I knew I was probably overreacting but I have a LARGE lack of knowledge. One of my problems was spacing the tomatoes too close. Im reading a lot of stuff to educate myself and plan better for next season. The only thing thatÂs left is bell and jalapeno peppers -- cucumbers, zucchini, and tomatoes are gone. Between the bugs and fungus I was done. The next thing I want to do is to build a small compost pile before winter. I have chicken wire and T posts already, not sure if I need to do a bottom

Im finding that I really love gardening despite some minor problems. The best part is coming home from work and puttering around in the garden and decompressing. Does that sound weird?

I was born with a "brown thumb" but im working on it. I keep telling myself nothing in the garden is gonna be perfect, nothing will look perfect. But it all tastes good :)

Thanks again

Heather

Heather,

Sound weird? Heck, no, it sounds perfectly normal to me.

Gardening is about so much more than planting something and watching it grow (or not grow). It is about the magic of seeing a tiny seed grow into a 6' tall tomato plant and produce loads of fruit in just a few months. It is about the magic of the flowers and the bees and the hummingbirds and the lady bugs. It is about the ants and the birds, the crickets and, yes, the caterpillars. It is about seeing the circle of life and the way everything works together, good and bad. Gardening is about life....and death, joy and sorrow, pain and pleasure. It is about beauty and color and scent and seeds and leaves and vines and trees. It is fruit and veggies. It is flowers and foliage. Compost. Soil. Clay. Rock. Sand. The sweet scent of healthy soil. The beauty of a drop of dew dangling from a flower or leaf early in the day. It is about the magical way morning glories open in the morning, and moonflowers open up every night. It is about the magical way Four O'Clocks bloom at....oh, around 4 o'clock and it is about the way their perfume scents the entire yard after dark, but not before.

Gardening is not always about success. It is often about failure, but from every failure you learn something new about your weather and climate, your soil, your plants, and yourself. You learn to persevere, to experiment, to try again. You yearn for perfection, knowing perfection is unachieveable...and yet, you keep trying.

Gardeners are the ultimate optimists because they've learned that if it doesn't work out this time, there's always next year...or the next. There's new techniques to learn, new solutions to try, new varieties to tempt you beyond all reason.

Most people have to do something called a 'job' so they can feed and clothe themselves and their families. If they are lucky, their job is something they truly love, but sometimes it is 'just a job'. But, when they come home and their time is their own and they can go out into the garden, they get to do something that feeds their soul.

Is it weird? No, it is spectacularly wonderful.

Happy Growing!

Dawn