I've been wondering the same thing...is it that some animals are sick so their manure isn't good to use or is it all manure? Have yet to use manure on my beds but I'm establishing new beds and have been wondering the same thing since I ran across a conversation about this.

Mandy

Ilene,

I have increasingly strayed from using manure the last two years, mostly because of the e coli. outbreaks on produce that have occurred in the last three or so years. Sometimes I buy Black Kow manure in the bags, and then leave it lying in a single layer in the sun for 6 months to a year so it will further decompose before I add it to beds. When we clean out the chickens coops, we put the straw/manure blend into ornamental beds or compost it for at least a year before compost from that pile goes into the garden.

How careful do you have to be with manure? Pretty careful, apparently. Remember when there was a big e. coli outbreak on spinach in...well, probably 2006 or 2007? Research conducted in the wake of that outbreak concluded that organically-grown produce was more likely to be contaminated with e. coli than conventionally-grown produce and that Univ. of Minn. study also found that produce from smaller semi-organic farms (those that hadn't received national Organic Certification) was more likely to be contaminated than produce from Certified Organic farms.

Part of the problem (and, to me, the main issue) is that current agricultural regulations allow manure to be placed in the fields as recently as THREE DAYS after it is 'shed' by the bodies of the animals. That is ridiculous....all manure should be fully composted, and I'd argue not just composted but well-aged for 6-12 months, to ensure that all pathogens have been destroyed by the composting/aging process.

However, e. coli contamination comes in many forms. Sometimes it comes from manure spread on fields, sometimes it comes from irrigation by e. coli-infected water. Sometimes it may be a more direct form of contamination caused by produce being handled by farm workers or processing factory workers who didn't wash their hands after they used the restroom facilities. Sometimes the contamination can come from bird or wildlife droppings. Sometimes the way produce is handled after picking may be responsible because some growers have the spinach, lettuce and other greens tossed into big vats of water right in the fields. That 'soaking' allows e. coli to travel from one infected plant to others.

So, if you use manure, compost it fully and age it well.

I have people offer me horse and cow manure pretty regularly, and I decline almost 100% of the time by telling them "I might take you up on that one of these days", although I almost never do. It is just as easy to make compost as to compost manure and seems less risky to me.

Finally, the research that bothers me most is some research done in the mid-2000s that showed some leafy greens were taking up e. coli into their leaves from manure-contaminated water. Before that research was done, I don't think anyone thought that was possible.

Another good reason to avoid manure is because of herbicide contamination. As I've mentioned before, some classes of herbicides used on hayfields and pastures do not break down evenly in the composting process. At times, manure and compost containing those residues have contaminated gardens and killed everything in them. If you get those residues in your soil, it can take 3-5 years for them to dissipate enough that they don't kill your plants. It happened here in this country in the early 2000s, it happened in Great Britian in 2008, and it happened here again in parts of our country (most notably in North Carolina) this year.

Between the possibility of e. coli and herbicide residue damage, manure as a soil amendment is looking less and less attractive over time.

Why is e. coli worse now? I think that certain factory farming practices likely have led to the development of stronger and more persistent strains of e. coli. I also think manure is not composted now as long as it used to be before it is added to fields. Also, keep in mind that most e. coli contamination in produce has come from supposedly well-washed and bagged greens, but not so much from single heads of lettuce or bundles of spinach leaves. That tells you that the e. coli might be spread during the washing/bagging process.

Dawn

Thanks for the tips Dawn. Manure doesn't sound like the best route for my new beds. Having trouble finding good compost though so we'll see how much of the "good stuff" I can get my hands on :-) Kids and I are getting ready to go leaf collecting and as soon as the lawn dries out I'm going to mow again so that should help. I'm making my own compost but it takes time lol.

Btw your jellies and jams sound wonderful and I know you're tired of putting up food but you'll be able to smile all winter when you watch your family munching up all the goods.

Ilene first I will say there is many opinions on proper use of manure and how and when to apply it. And discussions about it can be rather heated as those in each corner are set in their views. I will add my 2 cents. First if possilbe I would suggest a soil test. With the leaves and compost you might not need anything else. I know I never had one ran for around 15 years as my garden did well and I added manure every year. And I just used the same methods then started mulching more and adding leaves and did add manure heavirer a few times the last few years. I had one ran last year and found my levels 2-3 times higher than recommended. The only things I added anything to this last season was the corn and the garlic. I had already added some to each tomaot hole before the tests came back. I usually dig and prepare my tomato holes in the fall so anything I add has time to decompose. In the rest of the garden I didn't add anything and it did great. So you may not need anything. If so a little cottonseed meal, corn meal ect might be enough. As soon as I get my garden worked this fall will have tests ran again. I imagine I won't have to add anything again this year.

Manure is good for the soil and I've always used it. The rule of thumb is one inch per year max or many of the farmers add 3 inches every 3 years. And I've found that too be true. One problem that can happen if you over apply is a salt build up in the soil. That is what the farmers here watch for in their soil tests every year. I've applied it fresh many times. I use the extension service recommendation. I would have to go find it again to quote word for word.. Basically it is not ot pick any root crops for 60 days or above ground for 45 days after appying. If applied in the fall or early spring it should never be a problem. I know many say it has to compost at a certain temp for so long to kill everything. My extension service and what i've read elsewhere doesn't support that statement. They say fresh is ok if applied early enough. And I've never had problems. I've applied in the spring some years. The only thing I would plant that would be picked in the time frame that would pose a problem are radishes. So I make sure they are in a area I applied earlier or just add a little cottonseed meal, soybean meal ect. I use corn meal some but if in an area that I will plant seeds apply it at least 30-45 days before planting so as to not affect germination.
I've read many of the problems with E coli and from what I've learned it was from improper use ect. If the proper guide lines are followed the chances of a problem are slim I feel in a home owners garden. Most of the problems I've seen are commercial growers. These are just my opinions and what has and hasn't worked for me. It is like canning. There are different methods. i follow what my Mother taught me. Out of date by many standards but we have never had any problems over many years. In my opinion there are several ways to skin a cat and as long as the skin is removed how we get there really doesn't matter if each method is safe. Jay

When I started my post there were no replies. See while I was writing it a few other posts. Like I said there are many opinions. And I respect each. I go by my personal experience and what I consider the best advice I can find. I've used manure all my life with no trouble. The farms and ranches I was raised on very seldom composted it after removal. You moved it with a wheel barrow or a tractor with a loader out to the manure spreader as you cleaned the pens and stalls. Then when full you spread it. Usually on the gardens and spring planted fields till Jan and then on the fields to be planted in the fall till June or so. Saved moving seveeral times. Some could be all fresh and some is like mine. I clean my big pens twice a year. So it is a mixture. Some has composted and some is fairly fresh. If applied and worked in early enough I personally feel safe.

I feel there is a lot to be learned yet about e coli and it's spread. I know last year a restuarant 120 miles from me was closed 3 times. They started out thinking the vegetables ect. What they finally found was employees were spreading it from another area that they never considered before as a possibility. They treated that area and there has been no more problems. They had even put cameras in the restrooms to make sure employees were washing. Had tested the employees also. In my opinion especially with the vegetables grown in other countries I feel the time frames from application to picking probably isn't being followed as closely as it should be. Like Dawn mentioned there are several other possibliites.
In closing I will just say personally I have many things that concern me more than the use of manure. Any commercial feritilizer concerns me more as I don't know for certain how it is handled and processed. That includes Tomato Tone ect that others feel safe using. Even the meals I use concern me some as I don't know what was applied to those crops while being grown. In my case I know what my horses have ate and where I buy my hay and what that farmer treated his fields with. In my case I buy from farmers who don't spray which means my hay shouldn't have much spray residue. Another personal decision for each of us. Jay

A wealth of good information, thank you Jay and Dawn.

Does it cost anything to have your soil tested and how do you do it? Do they tell you everything you need to know or do you have to ask for specific readings?

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the hormones that some producers feed the cattle now, to fatten them up really fast for market?

I know that about 20 years ago I used to get horse manure from a co-worker of DH's. It was wonderful stuff. This guy managed his horse barn like it was his home, kept those stalls squeaky clean. When we'd get the manure, it would be full of straw and in big heavy horse feed bags. I'd just keep the bags in a corner between the fence and the garage and drag one out when I needed it. No weeds from that manure. My garden made a big jump in production when I started using it. Wish I could get that stuff again. This cow manure I got this year was so full of weed seed. Some of it was aged and it was nice. Had that wonderful farmy smell. The second load was more fresh, and in clumps and I didn't like it as well. Most of that went into the compost bin, but some of it got used. I put it in the beds in March. I had no idea I was taking any chances but I might not have gotten much out of that garden before early May so that would be the 60 days.

I appreciate everyone's opinion.

I am constantly amazed by all the news they dredge up about safety of this and that. I am betting the e-coli outbreaks on the big farms comes from human waste.......not cow manure. I bet the facilities for all the workers is less than optimum. Same with restaurants.

I will take my chances using cow manure any time I can. Now I don't mean fresh droppings....but I sure wouldn't be worried to pile up manure now and use as side dressing next spring.....been doing it all my life or spread it now and plant next spring.

Of course, I always wash everything that grows close to the ground extremely well before eating.

Everyone to their own opinion and you have to do what you think is safe. I don't follow all the 'new' guidelines for canning or jelly making either. I have been canning and freezing and making jelly since 1965....haven't been sick yet.

That being said, I do not advocate anyone else do it my way.

Ilene I'm sure you were fine. If not when you ate it you wold've known. Personally I trust my own manure more than any you could buy. You would be surprised what is in a lot of it. Most isn't 100% manure. Another thing that some people do is scatter the manure on the surface. That takes longer to break down unless you put mulch or compost on the top and keep it wet. If worked it will decompose faster.

Gldno,
I agree. I have read where they use human waste in Mexico and other places. That is why I trust the veggies I grow so much more. And in the winter try to buy what is raised in the USA only. Again we have had outbreaks here in the USA.
Like I mentioned my canning methods are out of date by some standards but my grandmother used them, my mother did and passed them along to me. Like salsa I don't like vnegar in mine so don't use any. I use little if any lime or lemon juice. But i fully cook it. For an hour or more. And then hot water bath for half and hour. Then check every seal ater they cool. I don't sell any but have gave lots away. Have friends who beg for it. And to my knowledge have never had anyone get sick. We ate some this summer at work that was canned 2 years ago. The only reason it lasted that long was I stored it and had forgot about it. I don't advocate anyone doing it my way either but it works for me. Cleanliness and proper sterilization of the jars ect beforehand are the most important in my opinion. Like I said my Mother always fully cooked most things before canning and watched the thermometer to make sure the temp was high enough. Something many don't do today. Jay

When I was in Olympia for a year had a new well put in. The county came out to test while I was gone. The idiots took the hose that was laying on the ground where the horses ran loose. Failed the test because it grew out e.coli. Duh, hose laying in fresh manure!
Point is, there is e.coli in most any fresh manure from any species. Let it age in the sun or compost pile and it should be fine. It doesn't survive UV light or high heat well.

Ilene,

You can have a basic soil test done through OSU, and I've linked the soil test website. It costs a small amount of money, but can save you money in the long run because you'll have a better idea of what (if anything) your soil is deficient in. It could be you really don't have to add anything at all, especially if you're adding mulch regularly to the soil surface because that mulch helps 'feed' the soil as it breaks down. There's also a great soil lab in Texas that has an organic orientation, although I can't think of the name of it off the top of my head.

Different soil testing labs provide different kinds of info and it can be difficult to decipher the soil test the first time you read the results of one, but the soil lab generally tell you what needs to be added to bring your nutrient levels up to the right range.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: OSU Soil Testing Lab

OK, thanks Dawn.

I'm like some of the others, I suspect a lot of e.Coli comes from human waste and not animal. But I have seen so many things change in the years I have been on this earth. I bet when the people that pick things need to go to the bathroom, some of them don't take the time to walk all the way off the field to go to some Porta-pottie. And even if they do, do they wash their hands after?

Didn't there used to be human waste treatment plants that actually sold processed human manure to people for gardens? Do they still do that? I'm thinking in particular, Indiana, but that may be because that's where I lived when I first heard of it. It seemed like they were saying that they were having lots of volunteer tomato plants in the fields where they used this material, because tomato seeds travel intact through the human digestive tract.

Ilene,

You're welcome.

I don't know much about humanure (human manure) and I really don't want to know about it, and I certainly don't want to use it. There was a book written about it though.

One concern would be any medication residues excreted in humanure....or maybe they all are excreted only in urine? (How would we find out the answer to that question? LOL)

I believe one issue is the way animals are crammed into feedlots and spend their time at the feedlots literally standing in manure 24/7, and I believe some people who are opposed to CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations, I think) believe they are partly to blame for certain diseases because of all the animals being crammed tightly together in a small space. However, CAFOs are only a portion of the animal feeding operations used in this country. There is one CAFO here in our county that we drive by occasionally, and I can't stand to see the cattle standing in mounds of manure.

I think a larger issue is the way that literally tons and tons of meat are processed and mixed together at huge meat processing facilities. They no longer process fairly small lots that are easily traceable and distributed in a narrow area. Watch the next time there is a recall.....I think the one last week that affected 8 or 10 northeastern states involved over 500,000 lbs. of meat; and not because all 500,0000 likely were contaminated, but that must have been the smallest traceable batch/amount they had so they recalled all of it.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: The Humanure Handbook

Well, I know Texas is "a whole nother country", but have you followed any of this?

Here is a link that might be useful: Texas trucking

I've read that China and a lot of southeast Asian countries who farm rice spread their fields with composted human manure two or three times a season - after every rice harvest.

I think the fears about e. coli are pretty overblown, but what do I know? I know I grew up on a farm raising chickens and cows and handled manure in all forms while indulging in lousy hygiene and I never got sick from it. I put horse manure on my garden this spring and plowed it in three times over the course of two months. Then grew melons there and no one got sick from them.

Well, like many of you, I'm not sure animal manure is really the culprit. At least from animals raised on real farms.

I've started buying my beef from a local mom & pop butcher. It's a little more expensive but I'm getting meat from local farms and supporting a family business, and when all is said and done, I'm not sure that the meat is all that more expensive than what I have been buying at the grocery store on sale.

The reason for that is because I have noticed there are increasing amounts of water injected into grocery store meat. They might be doing this at the packing plant, because we saw a thing on the Discovery channel and it showed them injecting water into the beef "to increase tenderness". Yeah, like I believe THAT.

I cannot make chicken-fried steak anymore with grocery store beef because after you flour the steak and put it in the hot oil, all the liquid starts to bubble out and before you know it, the steak is floating, the flour has gotten "washed" off the steak and is in the water, making a sort of a gravy, and when all is boiled down, you have a bare piece of meat, much smaller than it was, in a skillet of goo. This is even after you completely thawed the meat and poured off the water standing in the tray with the meat. So if you buy two pounds of beef and you pour off a cup of water, that's half a pound of water that you paid beef prices for.

I notice also that when I buy a whole chicken, it is no longer packed in a bag that leaks. It's vacuum packed. This is not because they're concerned about the chicken contaminating the rest of your groceries while you're trying to get it home. This is because, when you open the bag, out pours at least a cup of water that you have paid chicken prices for.

The most expensive water in our country is not bottled water. It is the water injected into our meat and poultry.

I am just getting increasingly MAD about how our food producers cheat us every day and think we don't notice. They reduce the size of the container and charge the same price and think we don't notice that we're getting less, or that we're so stupid that we can't figure out that what that turns out to be is a hefty price increase. They produce bottles of vitamins that only have enough vitamins in the bottle to come up about an inch from the bottom and the rest of the bottle is empty. They put tomato sauce, canned fruit and mayo in jars that look like quart jars but they're really not because they either have a big dimple in the bottom or the jar is an optical illusion because of its shape.

And then on top of all that, the food isn't even safe. It's processed in plants where there is insect and vermin infestation and where food inspectors are paid to look the other way.

And that Texas article is just plain scarey. The truth is, none of us really know where the solids from our public waste departments are going or what is being done with it. For all we know, we could be eating food raised in fields fertilized with it. And there's your explanation for e.Coli, right there.

I don't know if drugs pass through in "poo". I know they do in urine and in many countries, the governments recommend to people that they filter the water that comes out of their taps because of this. Our government has not come forward with this disclosure but the fact remains that most water treatment plants are not capable of producing drinking water that is not laced with drugs. I bought a water distiller and I use it. Still, we bathe in this water and it is possible for things to be absorbed through the skin.

Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.

The article about sludge just makes me cringe.

I've worked around manure for years too and never gotten an infection, but you do have to be careful.

Some of our ranching neighbors lost a very expensive dog (one trained to compete in team roping or penning or one of those cutting horse things that they do for a hobby now that they are semi-retired) because it rolled in cow manure on the ground in one of their pastures and apparently got an e. coli infection through a cut in its skin that they didn't even know it had. It was just one of those freak accident things, and it was a terrible tragedy to lose the dog that way. By the time the dog was noticeably ill, the vet couldn't save it.

I hate the current practice of pumping chicken and other meat products full of water. I do think it is all about them being able to pump up the weight of the meat and charge us meat prices for water. I am getting pickier and pickier about the meat products I buy. We are about to the point that we're only going to buy organic meat and preferably grass-fed.

Dawn

Dawn, I just read some of the reader reviews of that book you attached the Amazon.com link for. OMG, I can't believe these people are actually REAL. There's one reviewer that said she'd been "saving" her poo for several months and thought the book was a good solution, then went on to say she lived in an apartment with no land available on which to compost and, well, you know what I was thinking as I gasped into my computer screen, the same as you're doing right now. Some of the other reviews are just as bad... one person said they've been composting their poo in their back yard for some months, after experiencing some problems with their plumbing, and that it doesn't smell although their neighbors are complaining about an odor that is wafting around in the air. After reading the first review or two I was kinda thinking hmmmm, maybe I ought to rethink this, and then as I read each new review, especially the two I mentiond, I began to think I'm witnessing something that's just weird and scarey. I don't think I want to read all 68 of those reviews. I know that it takes all kinds to make a world and I'm generally respectful of people's ways, if they work well for them, regardless of whether I personally would do it. Makes me grateful my Neighbor From Hell hasn't seen that book. Kinda makes me appreciate that she and her son aren't any worse than they already are.

I think the best bet in avoiding so much water being pumped into chicken is to buy it cut up. Cut up chicken is not vacuum packed and not always frozen solid (at least not around here), and there's no cavity to pour the water into before it's frozen solid. Cut-up chicken is a little more expensive though. I guess they get you one way or the other.

Ilene,
Likewise I buy most of my meat from a local locker plant. All my steaks come from loins I have aged and then cut there. I like it first because I can get the meat aged like it should be to be tender. This is beef I'm talking about. The water is a way basically to sell more pounds and get more money. The saline solution does tenderize the meat some and enables them to sell poorer quality meats and those not properly aged at higher prices. Just a way to get around aging which takes time and is more costly. I do buy some pork that comes from Seaboard which is processed at the plant in Guymon. The rest from the locker plant. In many states a small locker plant operates under stiffer guidelines than a large processor. And that applies to other areas. I've been looking at growing and selling plants. In Kansas the larger growers and retailers don't have to go by the same laws I would. I'm still checking but seems it would be almost impossible to grow and sell organic plants here due to the laws. First I would need several permits all at a cost. Then spray so many times before , during and after growing them. Which the spray alone can do away with the organic classification. Pay for each inspection which is at least twice as I understand it. And then I have to keep track of the name of the person buying them, address and location of garden. None of which a retail store like Wal Mart has to do. Small meat processors in many states are in a similar situation. That is one reason the meat will be a little higher. At the big plants they try to have the beef out of the plant within 24 hours of slaughter time. And on it way to a retail store or somewhere to be processed into ground meat ect. Most of th loins I buy at the local locker plant is bought from a whole sale source and then he ages it ect. I feel most of the ecoli comes when handling it during processing ect. And I trust my local man and his cleanliness more than I do that at a huge plant.
Concerning manure I have made my opinions known before. Water from the town waste water plants have been used to water crops for years. Around here mainly grain crops and hay fields. And then many are watered by the runoff from the feedlots. As long as it isn't used on a vegetable crop I feel fairly safe. But another reason I like to grow my own. Where I know what was used and how.
I heard an expert on radio once say he felt manure got blamed for e coli sometimes when it wasn't the culprit. He said that is the first question that many doing investigations ask and if any has ever been applied they seem to stop there. Again I've used it for years with no problem. And I trust my manure more than I do other fertilizer sources and veggies grown commercially. Jay

Ilene, I didn't even look at the reviews, although some of them sound entertaining at the very least. LOL

The discussion of the neighbors complaining about some sort of odor wafting about reminds me of the current news story about the serial killer/rapist in...um, Cleveland, I think where they've been finding the decomposed and decomposing bodies in his home and yard last week and this week. They said some neighbors had complained FOR YEARS about odd odors, but everyone thought the strange odors were coming from a nearby cheesemaking factory. That's just creepy and it does make me wonder if a cheesemaking factory could possible emit odors that were "that bad" as to be confused with the odors of decomposing bodies.

Jay, I like knowing where our food comes from too, and how it was raised. I think many other nations (and not just Mexico) allow humanure to be used as fertilizer and that just makes my skin crawl. I am increasingly buying organic and just accept that the higher prices are the price we have to pay to get food that meets our standards.

Dawn

Dawn,
I'm even biting the bullet and sending a soil sample to Texas Plant and Soil Lab for the comprehensive test along with one for salts. I'm asking for the organic test. Will then compare to my extension service test. They were recommended by one of the garlic growers I've ran across and many say if using organic methods their test is better. Will be anxious to see what they say. I talked to them and they say after the first comprehensive test I shouldn't need to do any thing but the basic for 3-4 years. Jay

Jay,

Texas Plant and Soil Lab is the one I was referring to, even though I couldn't pull the name of it out of my brain....and I didn't think anyone would know what I meant if I said the "Texas lab in Edinburgh that's been there forever". You won't be sorry you've used them. This company is just absolutely legendary in Texas and worldwide specifically because of their organic testing and recommendations.

Dawn

Dawn,
I knew you would know about them. And if Gourmet Garlic hadn't recommended them so highly I would of asked you about them. But knew you are busy with the garden and answering other questions. Was very impressed talking to a man on the phone. He isn't convinced that all my readings should be so high. Thinks it maybe the test they ran. Says that when using organic methods there is another type of test that should be run. So anxious to see what they say. Maybe adding something after all. There are many private soil testers available but their name always seems to come to the top. Fifty Three dollars this year for the comprehensive test but if you look at the cost of additives and the water I use cheap in the end I feel. Will give me a good idea of where I'm at and what direction I need to head. Jay

Jay,

For years....well, actually, for decades, they have been the #1 soil testing resource for folks who prefer to go the organic route rather than the chemical route. (And by that, I don't mean that you can't use them if you aren't 100% organic, just that their philosophy and methods are more in line with people who prefer organic methods.) For a long time, I've thought of them as one of the better-kept secrets in Texas. However, they really aren't so secret---they do work with folks from all over the world. I especially like that they test for organic matter as a part of the composition of the soil because most labs only focus on nutrient readings and stuff like the cation exchange capacity.

Earlier this year, there was some concern about their future because of the death of their founder, but investors (and I think it was a local group and I do wonder if it was a group of employees, but I never heard if it was) stepped in and bought it and everyone who uses the lab breathed a deep sigh of relief.

A couple of years ago, the chain of Calloway's Nursery stores in Texas ran a great deal.....you could pick up the soil sample bag/box and submit 2 soil tests per address FREE by dropping them off at a Calloway's Store and Calloway's then sent the soil to TPSL for testing. In two weeks, you could pick up your results at Calloway's....and, of course, while you were there, you could pick up the necessary amendments recommended (if any) to bring your soil up to par. I thought it was a brilliant move on Calloway's part.....

Dawn

They want to know what kind of fertilizer you have used recently and plan on using. I have just prepared my sample from the main garden and will go out and put it in a baggie. Will prepare a separate one for the new tomato area. As this was the first year for it. Will post when I get the results. Jay

What we need to remember is that different animals have different variants of e-coli. Factory raised beef have the e-coli variant that is deadly to humans. Most cattle manure of animals raised on grass or very small amounts of grain have healthy intestinal systems and have very low levels of this deadly variant. Yes human e-coli can make you sick but it probably won't kill you your body has good resistence to human e-coli. We do need to be concerned about contaminates on prewashed vegetables because they are washed in large vats of H20 and any oraganism are spread to all the the vegetables washed in the sam water. If you spread fresh manure in your garden and are let it rest or work it in and then used months later any e'coli should be gone. It is not viable long term in the soil.

First I want to say the disease issue caused by what you eat how it is grown compares to global warning. Even the so called professionals can't agree. I base my decisions on past experience and also those professionals I trust. Like I've said before I've never known it if I've ever had trouble from vegetables or meat we've grown or raised. Amd much of the manure has been out of my feed pen. The one thing many forget is there are many more diseases that can be transmitted in manure and especially human manure than just ecoli. I know the restuarant close to us that had to close 3 times last year was due to human e coli. No one died but many ended up at the emergency room and a few were hospitalized.

Now going to share part of a conversation I had with some good friends Friday evening. I respect that many of my friends feel that I walk on the edge trying to grow as many of my vegetables as I can and not buy anymore than I have too. The husband told me he wanted to know more about this growing vegetables year round in cold frames ect I had mentionedj previously. I had mentioned the book Dawn sent me to read about 4 seasons gardening previously. Yes Dawn I will finish it now that I'm not as busy and get it sent back. If you charged me rent you would make money. hehe. Back to my story. So I told him some more and his wife said well we are starting to believe there is more to your thoughts about bought produce and where and how it is raised and handled. Then they shared the story of a good friend of their's. Who ate "healthy" and had been having some health problems. Had been to several doctors and had all the tests ran. Of course one of the first things removed from her diet was beef and no change. To make it shorter she finally ended up at a specialist who said with all the scares about beef and pork many had went to vegetables and if bought were having troubles. Especially fruit and veggies grown abroad with less strict regulations. He had her remove all fruits and veggies. Her problems were gone. Then she added back and found a few things that caused problems. He then told her to either find these locally grown or buy them at an organic store and see if it is the veggie or how they were grown or handled. She had no problem with any of them. Guess she bought at the farmers market and friends shared the rest of the summer. Of course now the market is closed and the gardens are history. The closest organic store said many of their US sources would be running out later and that they didn't handle Mexico products due to poor regulations and growing practices. So the couple were wanting to know more about my growing in the winter and what I thought I could grow. So they could share the information with her. I thought this was worth sharing. I'm not trying to change anyones minds or opinions. But think the more information we have the better decisions we can make. Jay

I know someone who can't buy fruit or veggies at the store because of the pesticide residue that remains on them. She had severe pain, and would get to the the point that she couldn't walk on her on, and that was the final diagnosis. I shared some of my veggies with her the first year she found out but I don't know what she has done since.

I had a cousin (now deceased) that was found on the floor with her arms and legs curled up under her like a dying bug after having her house exterminated.

I am using manure in my garden but I have not worried about it.

Jay, I love that book you are reading and usually get it out every winter to read some part of it. You are way ahead of me though, because you already have your beds built. I still have plans tho. Carol

Let's not forget the Country Cottage restaurant in eastern OK that was closed in 2008 after people kept contracting E. coli 0111 (it killed one person who originally was from Ardmore and sickened over 300 others). After expending over 6000 hours of investigative time, they never did pinpoint the exact cause of that E. coli outbreak. (final report linked below)

Jay, Don't get in any hurry to send back the book. I've already read it so many times I probably could recite it in my sleep, so I'm not in any hurry to get it back.

The foreign-raised produce does worry me a great deal. They could be using ANYTHING on that produce and we'd all be exposed to 'whatever' and no one would even know. I'm trying more and more to raise our own and to buy organic when I can't grow it here. It isn't easy, either, because some organic foods are very high-priced and sometimes I just wince when I look at the prices, but I still think it is worth the extra expense to know we're getting the healthiest food possible.

I don't even mind driving to the Dallas-Fort Worth area to shop at the organic stores there (are you kidding me....I LOVE going there....) but even our local stores have a lot more organic food options available now than they did 10 years ago. If I can't get all organic, I at least try to buy organic when buying the items that are 'nuked' with the most chemicals....like apples, strawberries and potatoes.

Another thing I find interesting is that pre-washed, bagged salads and greens are MORE likely to have E. coli or other disease pathogens than heads of lettuce or fresh bunches of spinach. They believe that the contamination is being spread during the washing/bagging process.

Carol,

Those are scarey takes, but increasingly common.

Jay and Carol, Y'all do know Eliot Coleman has a new book out about year-round gardening, don't you? I bet Santa brings it to me for Christmas.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Final Report on the E. Coli 2008 Outbreak

Dawn, I did know about the book but I haven't read it. Santa sure is good to you.

Carol,

Santa is very good to me because my Santa hates to shop. So, I tell him "this is what you're getting me" and he gets it, and we're both happy. I'm happy because I got what I wanted. Santa is happy because he's not standing in a store on the afternoon of Christmas Eve asking himself what I might like as the clock ticks down......and we're both happy because neither one of us is standing in a Return/Exchange line on December 26th or 27th. It works for us. : )

Santa doesn't know it yet, but he's also going to get me a pickle crock for Christmas so I can make fermented pickles. Santa loves homemade pickles.

Dawn

Carol,
Sounds like you had heard about the problem long before I did. Friday night was the first time I remember hearing about something like that. And I didn't aske what all her problems or symptoms were. I knew she had health issues but don't think I ever heard what. I will keep you informed of my success or lack of growing things this winter. Jay

Jay, It is pretty amazing that we are still growing anything. I had romaine from my salad bed today, and yesterday my DH and I stood in the yard and ate about 8 Sungold tomatoes, and I cooked green beans last night from the garden. I pulled all of my peppers weeks ago except a couple in an out of the way place. Today one little plant had about 4 red jalapenos hanging on it, so I pulled my other plants way too soon. My cole crops look like I would have hoped they would have looked about a month ago. LOL If we go a few more days without rain, I should be able to till up about half of my garden. I am anxious to do that and till in the leaves that have blown there. That will be the half where I plant my early things in the spring so I would like to start getting it ready. I always plant snow peas, but I have several other peas to try this year in addition....too many trips to Baker Creek.

The lady that I know with the health issue is from Yukon, near OKC. This was probably 4 summers ago when I shared produce from my garden with her.

Carol,

Since it stopped raining, my garden is making a strong comeback. I even have cowpeas in bloom, and I was expecting that I'd just till them into the soil as green manure and wouldn't get any peas. Now it is looking like I might get some peas if the weather holds.

I still have tomatoes, cukes, peppers (sweet and hot), three kinds of green beans, three kinds of cowpeas, Irish potatoes, pumpkins and winter squash producing. (And too many herbs to name.) My cool season crops just haven't grown much or done much. They were planted as the heavy rains were starting and I think they had too much rain and too much cloudiness at a critical point in their growth cycle. They stunted so much I'm just pulling them up and throwing them on the compost pile. The more well-established warm-season crops stalled, but at least they bounced back.

Even zinnias, amaranth, morning glories, Texas hummingbird sage and Laura Bush petunias (and some small tomato plants!)that reseeded from this year's plants have started blooming, and they only sprouted in September. Usually, anything that reseeds and sprouts in September generally freezes about the time it starts blooming, but there's no freeze in our 7-day forecast.

I'm kind of ready to put the garden to bed, but I just can't look a gift horse in the mouth, so I keep harvesting and putting up the extra produce after we eat all of it that we can. (Apparently I am the only one in the family who can eat green beans every day and be happy about it.) At this point, it looks like I'll be working on the beds in December instead of November.

A lot of leaves are falling, but it is so warm that I am afraid the snakes are out, so I haven't collected a whole lot of them yet. I guess that will give me something else to do after the first freeze finally arrives.

I suspect if they tested all of us for pesticide exposure, we'd all have pesticide and other chemical residues in our body. They did that with a reporter a few year s back and I believe they found residue from over 80 chemicals in his body.

Dawn

In my neighborhood they just rack or blow the leaves up and burn them. I could see three fires from my garden yesterday afternoon. If I had a good way to chop them I would go pick them all up, but I have so many of my own to do that I don't have time to do it. Our leaves don't break down in one winter if they are not chopped, so I really don't have a place to keep them long enough for them to break down. Several years ago my DH came home to tell me some friends had a shreader for sale. I only thought of tree limbs and couldn't see spending the money for it at the time. I don't know why I didn't think of leaves. Leaves are easy enough to blow, but a bear to vacuum and chop. Allergy city!