I was just out picking bush beans....so all bent over, and thinking how nice it would be to pick them while standing upright!

Any discussion we have here that broadens our knowledge and understanding of "how gardening works" is good for all of us. I think it helps us in our planning, and it gives us confidence in what we're doing as we understand the whys and wherefores better.

LOL! Dawn you are a fount of knowledge.

I had a thought. You know how we go out and give our tomato plants a little "shake" on windless days, in order to help the flowers to self-polinate. Well, from the description you just gave, Dawn, it seems to me it would behoove us to run out there first thing in the morning and shake our beans, too, before the bumblebees get there!

Carol, could you interplant your bush beans with the runner beans, at the base of your cattle panel? That's what I'm going to try. The runners will climb up the panel and the bush beans will fill in the blank space down near the ground. This will help to discourage weeds that I normally have growing amongst my runner beans. Seems like if there's room for a weed to grow, there should be room for something edible to grow there instead. Of course, I imagine we'd have to provide some extra fertilizer for this intensive growth.

I suppose I could do it like that but I probably will not because I am going to put my cattle panels closer together than I had them this year, and maybe get a few more. I rarely grow bush beans at all because I don't lean over well (remember my back doesn't bend), but I had some seeds that my husband selected the first time I went to Baker Creek and I thought I would try a few of them. When I saw that display, I thought that would be the perfect way to do it. If I pick bush beans, I need to be on the ground to do it and our spring season is normally to wet to be on the ground even with my bending stool. I think one of his selections was a dwarf so I will likely put it in a container.

As for intensive planting, I am leaning more and more in that direction. It seems if your soil is good enough then that should work well. I have been trying to find on-line articles about it but mostly they just want to sell books.

That brings up another question on another veggie. When I look at the recommendations on corn they are really far apart. The corn in the field is really close, so what is best? I have been reading the three sisters concept and thinking that if they planted like most people are recommending they would need 20 acres to have enough corn to be worth while. Corn and okra always puzzle me when planting. Do you follow recommendations or do you over-crowd like I sometimes do? I have to admit that when I don't crowd the okra the plant looks better.

Dorothy, Aren't you the one with five 100 foot rows of okra? How far apart are yours? Do you thin it or just plant it that way. Too many questions?

When I read back over this message, it sounded like I am in bad shape (LOL), but I'm really not. Since I don't bend at the waist and can only bend at the hips, I can pop down and get something, but I can't stay that way or I fall on my face. Even picking the beans on the low part of the cattle panel, I either bend my knees or I hold on to the panel while I bend over. Makes me sound like I'm about 95, doesn't it? I really can do most everything, but I probably do it differently. LOL

Ilene,

My fount of knowledge on raising beans just reached its limit with this thread, so if y'all ask any harder questions, we'll have to leave them for George. LOL I always count on him to read my bean answers and correct me if I gave erroneous info because my knowledge of beans is so much less in-depth than his.

I'm a 'casual' bean grower--because we love to eat them so---but George is a serious bean grower/seed saver and more knowlegeable about bean-growing than almost everyone here on GardenWeb (he's in a class of bean experts along with Zeedman, Gardenlad, Fusion, Jimster and a few others on the Bean, Pea and Legume Forum).

I suppose shaking the beans wouldn't hurt if you are not having wind, but we have so few still and windfree days here that I don't worry about it. To make it more authentic, we could put on little bee costumes.....buy 'em at the After-Halloween sales.

Carol, I forget that your back doesn't bend well because you really don't mention it that often and I am forgetful.

Intensive planting works great--it is all that I do. The key is well-amended soil and adequate moisture. It seems to me that I have fewer weeds to fight too because the intensive plantings shade the ground and discourage competition from weeds.

I have John Jeavons' latest edition of his classic book "How To Grow More Vegetables (and fruits, nuts, berries, grains, and other crops) *Than You Ever Thought Possible On Less Land Than You Can Imagine. It is an amazing book.

Anyway, he has been at the forefront of the Biointensive Growing movement for decades and gives EXACT numbers of plants needed to provide the average person, or the average family of 4, with a year's supply of fresh produce. He also goes into tremendous detail on double-digging, soil enrichment, plant spacing, etc. I'll try to post a list on a separate thread to give you an idea of what he says you need to grow to feed a family for a year.

When I read his book the first time around 12 or 13 years ago, I was shocked.....I didn't think his spacing would work for me either in Texas or, later on, here in OK, or that anyone in their right mind could grow the volume of plants he says is necessary and survive the gardening year. You know what? I don't feel that way any more. I have gotten better about soil improvement and close planting since I first read his book. I don't follow his guidelines exactly, but they help me determine my spacing.

I tried Square Foot Gardening but thought I sacrificed yields with some of the recommendations there, so the spacing I use is partly from SFG and partly from John Jeavons' book, but modified to work in my soil and climate.

With corn, I go more with one per square foot...but only 4 rows of that, then a wider path....maybe three feet, then four more rows at 1' spacing, then a wider path....it leaves me room to get in there and put mineral oil in the ears, harvest, etc. That's just for sweet corn though.

If I am growing the Three Sisters together, what has worked best for me is to plant in hills or mounds (that is, groups, not actual raised ground) with the corn and then add winter squash and beans every so often. We can do a whole thread on the Three Sisters if you want to. This year, I planted corn regular style....one per square foot with regular periodic wider paths. Then I planted winter squash only on the edges and let it creep into the corn bed. The beans were bush beans in a row on the west side of the corn and squash bed, and the other beans were growing on the fence to the east and north of the corn. It all grew very well. I started the winter squash quite a bit later than the corn though. Otherwise, it can get big leaves fast and overwhelm the corn before it gets very tall. Three Sisters plantings can be harder than they sound.

The best Three Sisters planting I ever had was mostly ornamental and "just for fun"....16' tall broom corn grown for the colored seedheads for fall decorations, and hyacinth beans for appearance only, and cushaw and hubbard squash for fall decorations and eating. It was colorful, and the tall broomcorn and gorgeous purple hyacinth bean flowers literally stopped traffic that year.

Back to serious corn growing....you can grow field corn more closely than sweet corn, I believe. Your spacing is your choice too. Wider spacing can give you bigger ears, but I get perfectly decent ears with only 1' spacing. Dryland corn would need larger spacing in my climate due to our chronic drought conditions, but that wouldn't be an issue for the eastern half of OK most years.

Okra is something I probably plant closer together than I should. I usually do 12-18" spacing. If you plant it any closer than that, the side branches don't produce as well. I've seen some people plant it very closely and others plant it very far apart. The ones planted very far apart get massively huge, but maybe the variety was one that gets huge anyway and that is why it was planted farther apart. Most cowhorn okras, for example, need a lot of space between each plant because they get very big. And, of course, what works for someone with a lot of rainfall might be different for someone in a low rainfall area, and what works in sandy loam or sandy loam is likely to be different for someone with clay soil.

Honestly, Carol, I don't think of you as someone who's in bad shape! Clearly, you do have to be more careful in how you do some things because of your back, but it doesn't sound like it slows you down or stops you from doing what you want to do or growing what you want to grow.

Dawn

Dawn, I think I am in fairly good shape but I have had to learn to deal with 9 inches of steel down both sides of my spine, so that just means I have to do some things in a different way. I can lift up to 40 pounds and since that is the way most soil ammendments are packaged I can manage them by myself. I have a hard time holding my arms out in front of me for very long if I am standing, but can do it OK if I sit down. I sat at my dining room table today to do my peppers. I can walk a lot but have a hard time standing in one spot. I'm OK with all of this tho, and I have learned how to do things in spite of it. I am blessed to be able to do what I do so I have no complaints. I love to garden and will continue to do it as long as I possibly can, but I do modify a few things. My DH and my neighbors are good to help me if I run into something I can't handle.

Howdy folks! We drove through rain all the way from about Durant, TX to Tahlequah. Sometimes it was REALLY heavy too! So we're both going to be a little tired today.

Okay, here's what I understand about bush/pole bean crosses. I have yet to see one. But there is absolutely no reason why they can't happen, and that, as easily as between pole/pole or bush/bush combinations. Perhaps I haven't seen such a cross because for many years I only grew one bush bean. Also, I believe back around 1995, I did have a half runner cross show up from my bush bean seed. It was very obviously a cross as my bush bean had solid coffee colored seed, and this cross had cream colored seed with brown stripes. So my recommendation is to isolate for pure seed regardless of habit.

I agree with just about all Dawn has shared (thanks Dawn). Bumble bees are definitely culprits in causing crosses. This year we had lots of them.

If you save your own seed, remember, a cross isn't the end of the world. I've never seed so many as I have cropping up this year. I simply have to adjust my distances and will try to plant from pre-2008 seed, for my seed production next year. Unfortunately, my seed production, this year, is pretty low. And, when I offer seed, I'm going to have to warn people of possible crosses.

Crosses are a great opportunity to select one's OWN personal variety. Plus, if you think about it, the faithful ones, who gave us most of our seed, didn't take such pains to isolate; at least not in most cases. They simply selected what they liked.

Last week I found a cross between Long Cut Old Timey Greasy Bean and Tennessee Cutshort. I'm not sure it's superior. But it sure is pretty. (So many beans, so little time...)

Gotta run for now!

George

Hey, I happen to have one of those bee costumes! LOL! Truly, I do.

Carol, I have back problems too, spondylolisthesis. So I don't do a lot of bending over at the waist or I pay for it later. I have raised beds though. I have a handy kneeler that, turned one way, is low enough to the ground that I can kneel on it comfortably and work in the raised beds. It doesn't work well for ground level. For that, I drag around a big piece of cardboard from the furniture store, and sit on that. Turned over the other way, the kneeler becomes a place to sit, and that's handy when I need to deadhead flowers. I bought a thing called an "ab-dolly" at a garage sale that was nothing more than a low place to sit, on wheels. I thought it would work well to sit on and scoot around. But I had so much trouble getting on and off it that it just wasn't worth the effort. I like my cardboard better. DGS and DH help me by doing the heavy stuff, but I try to do as much as I can.

I think George had a really good post not long ago about how far apart he plants corn for intensive and for Three Sisters. If my memory serves me correctly, I think he planted corn in hills, as Dawn mentioned. I don't know where that thread is now, we all get off-topic so much (and I'm the worst) that it's hard to find specific stuff once time has passed.

I had Cowhorn okra last year and I spaced it 6" apart. I planted that closely because I got the seed in a trade and I didn't know how old it was or how well it would come up. Sometimes, by the time everything's up it's a little too late to plant more. Although I know people who plant extra seed in containers to transplant out into areas where the seed didn't germinate, I don't usually do that. I'd say maybe 80% of the seed germinated and grew. They grew very tall and thick in some places. I didn't have trouble with weeds. The plot was about fifteen feet long and was only six feet wide, so I could reach into the center from both sides. I may have had a larger yield had I planted further apart, but I still have plenty of okra in my freezer and so it did OK for my purposes. It really looked great in bloom and got a lot of attention from the people who walk along the sidewalk in the park outside my back fence.

I hadn't considered planting corn in my backyard garden but y'all are getting me in the mood. I may widen that plot a little and plant some there. I need to find that thread of George's to find out what kind of corn he bought. It was something-quachie, I think. LOL!

George,

That was a long, tedious drive in the rain. I'm glad y'all arrived home safely.

Oh, I am just so grateful you are back! The bean questions kept getting harder and harder and I kept wishing you were here. I have tried to hard to understand the bean family, and just when I think I understand it all, I learn something new and have to adjust my thinking. (Like when you taught me that some beans are daylength-senstive, which I'd never even considered as a possibility before you mentioned it!) Another fact I only learned the last few years was about the way the pollen dehisces before the flowers open. I didn't know that for the longest time and worried more about cross-pollination than I needed to.

You must have had our bumble bees because we had very few this year and usually have lots. We did have tons of honey bees though.

That sounds like a great possible cross between your greasy bean and cutshort. I am sure you're excited about it. I assume you haven't eaten any of them yet to see if they are tasty? Or, is there only enough crossed seed to do a growout to see what you get?

Ilene, I am rolling on the floor laughing.....Should be ask you why you have a bee costume? If you put on your costume and go outside to shake the plants, please ask DH to shoot a photo so we can see you pollinating your plants! This is too funny.

I think George's corn is Mesquakie and believe he mentioned Glenn Drowns' Sandhill Preservation Center as his original seed source.

Dawn

In scrolling down through this, I saw Dawn asked me a question about okra. No I have one 50 ft row of okra; formerly had 6 100 ft rows of asparagus but have cut down and will cut down even more this fall till I have 6 50 ft rows.
And I plant the okra fairly thickly and thin to leave the stalks a foot apart, which in my good soil produces a very thick hedge of plants.

Corn we plant three seeds to a hill and put the hills a foot apart and then thin to one plant per hill, feeding the thinnings to chickens. We raise 14 50 ft rows of corn in two plantings, seven rows each time. Well this year we had such lousy germination that we planted four times all together.

Ilene - I'm with Dawn on this one and want to see a picture of you in your garden in your bee costume pollinating your plants.....and oh, don't forget the off-road clogs to go with it. You are a hoot. Made my day.

We are a funny bunch since we worried for two days about planting beans so we wouldn't get crosses, and the "bean expert" appears to tell us it's not a bad thing. LOL Maybe we should just all stay in the garden. We may not make it through a winter of "thinking". George, we are glad you are back. I hate driving in the rain at night. I can take the night, or the rain, but not together. I am, however, very sorry they moved Durant to Texas because it was in Oklahoma when I went to school there. LOL

Dorothy, I was the one with the okra comment and I don't know why I thought you planted so much okra. I just remembered you saying you planted Clemson Spineless and it started producing when it was short and you had to bend over to harvest it. I guess I invented all those rows, or maybe I invented the whole thing. Maybe I'm losing it big time. HeeHee

They are saying that we should get sun this afternoon and it seems to be brightening up a little, so maybe we will really see the sunshine for awhile. Of course, tomorrow is back to cloudy again. I am not ready for winter.

I don't know what happened to our weather here.

When I went to bed last night, it was in the 70s....in fact, it was 74 degrees about midnight. Right now it is 55 degrees here. I want last night's weather back.

The weather does start looking up here beginning tomorrow. At least, that's what they are saying. We'll see.

Dawn

Lots of good information in this thread. Will add my experinece with sweet corn. I usually plant my sweet corn 8-10 inches a part. This year I had poor germination on seed from one vendor. And had some that was 16=20 inches a part. The ears were no bigger. The only difference I've seen is they sucker more if they have more room. And my sucker ears never amount to much. I plant two rows next to each other as I used them for windbreak and some shade for other plants. I space rows 18 inches a part. One thing in my favor is my soil has been built up. And being sandy loam it takes water well. I've experimented with different spacings and like I said in my garden I get as big of ears using 8-10 spacings as I do with 18-20. I feel it is something each gardener has to experiment with in their garden. Very few cut and dried rules in gardening. I like sweet corn and the closer spacings allow me a lot more in the same space. Jay

Jay,

This is a LOT of good info here. For example, we all learned that Ilene has a bee costume! LOL

I used to think wide corn spacing was 'required' or necessary or essential because my dad and grandfather did it. Imagine my surprise when I planted it much closer than they ever did and still got the 'right' size of ears that you'd expect for a given variety.

I've fought the raccoons for years and some years they get the corn first, sometimes we get it, and sometimes we split it. I like to plant REALLY early....around March 23-30 and plant something that is very early like Early Sunglow. With luck and good weather, I am harvesting Early Sunglow by Memorial Day. AND, this is one of the areas where Fred (my 87-year-young farmer/rancher friend)and I disagree.

When I plant Early Sunglow and plant it early, Fred gives me a hard time and tells me I'll get "little ears" from that variety and from the early planting, and that is true. However, raccoons never think to look for early corn in May, so we get 100% of the harvest. I'd rather have 200 early (and tasty and tender) ears that are 5-6" long than to get half or none of the later crop of ears of a different variety that are 8-9" long. So, I'm all in favor of doing whatever works here to get a crop. Little ears are better than no ears. It can take years, though, to figure out what works best in any given location and climate, and that can be frustrating.

One garden peeve that drives me bonkers.....driving down the road and seeing one long row of corn, generally on the north side of a garden. One row just won't give good enough pollination. I always want to stop and tell the gardener(s) that they'd get better corn if they planted in a block instead of one long row. Since I don't know them, and they might or might not appreciate unsolicited advice, I don't stop and knock on their doors. But, I always think to myself that I should.

It is so true that there are very few cut and dried rules in gardening.....and I even break those few sometimes.

Dawn

Dawn, Don't forget Ilene also has off-road, big tread, clogs for gardening in the mud. Wonder if we could put mud flaps on a pair of those. LOL

When I last planted corn, I planted it in a block, but that was a long time ago. I still don't plan to plant sweet corn but George has convinced me that I should plant dent corn for grinding. It will be a small crop, I assure you. My husband has a friend that is a corn farmer and he plants a large amount of field corn but also plants plenty of sweet corn and his grandchildren sell it in the summer. He tells us to go get what we want. My husband got a burlap bag full and when he saw it he told DH if he didn't go back and get more his wife was going to pick it and bring it to him, so we got a second bag. So I have plenty of corn. We ate a lot in the summer because I had so much company, but I still have plenty.

Good info Jay, so I will be going with a closer planting. I think that should work much better in a garden situation. Everytime we mention something, you planted it. It sounds like you plant enough for a big family. Your freezers must be as full as Dawns are.

Someone mentioned the price of can goods on another thread and I also have noticed that the prices have increased. This is the time of year when can goods always seem to be the cheapest (right after harvest) so I always stock heavy for the winter. I would imagine that many products will be affected because of the tomato blight and an awfully lot of products use tomatoes. I always watch with interest when there is a shortage of something. The prices go very high as you would expect, but when the shortage ends, the price only reduces slightly and never returns to the original..like wheat, sugar, gasoline, etc. With the way the dollar is right now, your best investment may be the food you already have in your house.

I hope those predictions for the ice storms are not right because that is the weather that I hate the most. I can go outside during just about anything else, but I am afraid of walking on the ice.

Ilene, I have seeds for cowhorn okra that I am going to try next year. In fact, I have two different ones. I did a seed trade and got one and then I bought another. (Jay, I also have your pack). I have only planted Burgundy for years so it will be nice to try some new ones. My husband has this dream that someday I will find what I like and just keep planting that every year. Yeh, sure. Of course, when we went to Baker Creek he selected more than I did. He feeds my addiction.

Ilene, since you are next to the park maybe you could plant a demonstration garden on park land. You might have to run out there really yearly in the morning to get the produce before the joggers stopped for a snack. Or maybe you could get the garden club to plant one there and you could still run out early in the morning to harvest. LOL

How's this for picking up a conversation late?! Dawn, if you can believe it, I have only found one pod of that Greasy/Tennessee Cutshort cross! I don't know if it's just that I didn't notice, and ate them all summer (hard to believe) or that particular plant didn't produce until now. I don't know. That particular planting really struggled to produce this year. Also, Jerreth did most of the processing, and Jerreth doesn't "analyze" individual pods as she snaps them. I'm the "strange one" around here :)

We plant Mesquakie Indian and Cherokee Squaw, which is a blue and white corn. This year, when it was planting time, I was so busy that I barely got in the very minimum amount necessary, for seed production, and that, only of the Mesquakie Indian. So in 2010, I MUST give priority to Cherokee Squaw. I hear that Dar Jones planted LOTS of Cherokee Squaw for Sandhill Preservation Center, so they should have the seed for both of these in 2010. Mesquakie is multicolored, usually with yellow & blue or red and purple ears. The kernels are small and a little on the flinty side. It makes wonderful corn meal. Cherokee Squaw is also a dent, but with much larger, flat kernels which are a snap to shell.

I plant corn about 15-18" apart in rows about 4' apart. Every year I vow to make those rows a little further apart, but usually in the press to get in enough, I squeeze them in there again. Neither of these suckers much at all, at least not in this planting arrangement. But given the space and conditions ears can be much larger than, say, they were this year. We got "nubbins" this year.

Today Jerreth and I hope to bring in a lot more from the garden.

George

Awwwwwwright you guys! LOL

Carol, here's a picture of my offroad crocs. I dunno about the mud flaps, but since I wear sox with them maybe we could sew one on the heel of the sock? LOL I like them a lot because the sole is much thicker than regular crocs and there's more traction, so less danger of slip and fall. I have fallen down in the garden several times. One time I ended up with a frozen shoulder because I twisted my arm trying to catch myself, and another time I scraped my leg across the end of a cattle panel as I went down and got a deep scrape/bruise that took forever to heal. Falling scares me to death because I always worry that it'll throw my back into muscle spasms and that puts me in bed for a week and then on a cane for a month or so.

If I'd known old age was going to be like this, I'd have been a wilder kid.

I've been asked a few times why I'm not a member of the local garden club. My answer is always that I'm not able to have all my weeds pulled and I tend to scatter cardboard all over the place, two things I think they'd frown on.

George, I too am glad you're back. We missed you.

Now that my Jerusalem artichoke "screen" is gone, I'm feeling like I'm being watched a lot. Our next door neighbors to the north, who are nice enough people, sit in their back yard facing in the direction of our yard. I'll adjust, but I don't think I'll go out there in my bee costume just yet. They already think I'm nuts. She doesn't talk much to me, but her husband comes over from time to time to ask me what I'm doing. I think he's the designated reporter. They live (temporarily, I'm told) with their daughter and her boyfriend, both of whom work all day, so I'm sure there are occasional dinner conversations that start with, "Guess what your neighbor did today?"

Here is a link that might be useful: off-road crocs

Sandhill Preservation does not have any Mesquakie corn for 2009. Is there another dependable source that you know of, George?

Carol, I didn't forget....I am still just amazed that they actually make off-road big-tread clogs. Why didn't the rest of us know that? Clearly Ilene is more hip and up-to-date on clog fashions than I am. I need to start paying more attention to the fashion world.

George, Better late than never. Wouldn't you know we'd start talking beans while you were away from home?

One pod? Only one? So, how many seeds? A half-dozen? More? You know, if you save that pod, and baby the seeds along next year, maybe you can get enough seed next year to try growing it in 2011. I'm glad to know Jerreth is the "normal" one, which I always suspected to be true. LOL When I am harvesting/processing the harvest, I probably don't pay attention to oddities like crossed seed either. I'm glad you are the 'strange one' though, because the seed-saving and seed-sharing you do is meaningful and important.

Have fun bringing in a lot of goodies from the garden. I hope Dar Jones had a good year and supplies SPC with a lot of seed, because SPC had such a difficult seed-raising year last year leading to lots of out-of-stock seed this year.

My corn was smaller than usual this year, and I blame the weather. I didn't even plant Early Sunglow or any other extra-early corn and I still got smaller ears. Well, some of the Country Gentleman shoepeg corn was almost full-sized, but a lot of it wasn't. The corn was planted on a slope, and the corn higher up on the slope where there was better drainage had the larger ears, and the corn further down the slope where the ground stayed wetter had smaller ears.

Ilene, Maybe you could send the Croc folks a helpful suggestion that they add detachable mud flaps to the off road shoes. Well, OK, I don't think they'd do it either, but wouldn't they be amazed we even were thinking about mud flaps on crocs?

I'd love to be able to wear crocs outdoors here, but I might as well just go stand in a fire ant bed and say "come and get me now".

We had some neighbors like that in Fort Worth and it drove me nuts. Too bad there isn't something that would make a good winter screen. At least your neighbors are amused by your gardening....but, what will they talk about in the winter months?

Maybe Sandhill will have Mesquakie again in 2010. I don't think there is another commercial source, but George may know someone thru SSE or through one of the other veggie forums who might have some. It can be hard to grow enough corn to get seed because you're supposed to save it from a lot of different plants (minimum of 200 plants, I think) to avoid inbreeding depression.

Dawn

OOOps, read more carefully and it was Carol, not Dawn who asked me about the okra. Been too busy to keep up. Sorry.

It's sunny today and is suppossed to get up to 60. Wonderful after two weeks of clouds.

Our okra is gone, so comes out today. And am going to pick a good batch of salad greens and pull some radishes.

I hate cold weather. I have never had good circulation in my feet and hands so find it a real struggle to stay warm in even cool weather. DH retires in June of next year and by this time next year the plan is to have a greenhouse. I am so looking forward to that. I am going to try something I read in a Rodale book on greenhouses and start a compost pile in it. We will wait until Dec to clean out the dry litter and manure from the chicken house and put it in the greenhouse and wet it down and see it it cooks. In addition will put a couple 55 gallon barrels of water in there and for backup a small electric heater. I would like to have "fall tomatoes" well into winter. We shall see...we shall see.

Dawn,
What makes this forum so specil sometimes in the additional information we learn like Ilene's Bee costume. I'm sure she could earn some extra money modeling it!!! Or maybe she will come to the spring swap meeting wearing it. I thought maybe you would have a fall meeting and I would try to come and bring the feed tubs. Haven't seen anything posted.

Now back to sweet corn. For many years I believed you needed to plant at least 4 rows to get good germination. This was information put out by extension services ect. Then saw the Amish only planted two rows and then flowering plants and another two rows. And got to remebering my Mother usually only planted 2 rows. So I went to that and haven't had any problems. And I know many feel field corn can be planted closer together than sweet corn. Then a big corn farmer who also grows a little sweet corn. Usually 12 rows or so a half mile long said he used the same spacing he did for field corn. So I started experimenting and found it worked for me. I have went down as far as 6 inches. Still had good ears but that is cramping things a little. I wouldn't say it will work for everyone. And I have tried planting early. The trouble I have is getting good germination on sweet corn. I see some that is advertised to have better cool soil germination but none in varieties I want to grow. It is good to read and learn all a person can. In the end though it boils down to what works in your garden. Not how you get there. I have also saw the single rows of corn and then decided it is their garden and maybe they don't want every ear full. I'm about ready to order sweet corn seed. About have everything for spring planting. Put an order in for one week of winter then an early spring. So if I don't get a back order notice I'm ready as soon as I work the garden. Jay

Jay,

We always talk in the spring and summer about a fall swap, and it always seems to fall by the wayside. I think the weather wins the war all summer long and then everyone is maybe too exhausted by fall to plan/attend a swap, but that is just a guess.

This forum is special for a lot of reasons, and Ilene's bee costume (and don't forget the all-terrain heavy-duty crocs!) is just one of them.

I have had good pollination on three rows of corn but have never cut it to two and I really try to use 4 as a minimum. My 2 separate blocks of corn are planted differently because of their locations but each is usually 100 plants or more and using 1' spacing with wide paths every 4'. I could skip the paths (and some years I have) if I wasn't putting mineral oil in each ear to thwart the corn earworms.

It is hard for me to germinate corn in cold wet ground, so I pre-sprout it by soaking it in water and wrapping it in coffee filters and putting it in a ziplock bag. Once it has pre-sprouted, it usually grows just fine. If a sudden very cold spell hits in March as I'm sprouting the corn and I have to hold it inside longer than I like, I just pop each seed into a tiny paper cup of potting soil and then transplant ASAP. You have to transplant pretty early though so the roots can establish themselves. I know that "they" say you shouldn't/can't transplant corn that's been started inside, but I do it often....and I always pre-sprout indoors even if I am direct-seeding.

I have a lot of my seeds for spring planting too because I don't like having my plans held up by back-ordered seeds too. Of course, I always make a few last-minute seed buys after the new catalogs arrive.

It is in the upper 60s here and we have clear sunny skies. I'm so excited. The garden is going to have an entire day of sun today for the first time in weeks! Love County is overrun today by OU fans traveling down to Dallas for the big game with UT. I've only heard of one fight (between, ahem, UT and OU fans) in town so far today, and it was on the fast food strip just off the interstate.

So, the annual OU Fan migration is in full swing today, and at least they have lovely weather for the drive south.

Dawn

" I am, however, very sorry they moved Durant to Texas because it was in Oklahoma when I went to school there. LOL "

Carol, that's funny. I stopped and asked someone with Texas plates and they assured me that Durant belongs to Texas! LOL Actually, I couldn't remember the name of the town and took a hasty look at a map, not noticing what state it was in. Durant, looked familiar, and of course, it was; but not in Texas.

Dawn, I found two more little nubbin sized pods and one regular pod of that Tennessee Cutshort/Greasy cross, when harvesting yesterday. I'll have to dry them in the house and may try growing them out next year. I bet I'll get no more than 6-7 seed in total. In the future I am going to be a lot more careful with isolation. Though crosses are generally good eating and not a problem from the kitchen point of view, I really prefer to offer seed which will come true at least 99.9%. I showed those shiny pods to Jerreth last night, and commented about my idea of developing a greasy Tennessee Cutshort variety and her comment was "But I LIKE Tennessee Cutshort as it is!" (Always the practical one, and usually right, I might add :)

Okay, I really should get out to the chores now. I'm enjoying all the banter here lately. Due to time constraints I'm not doing much on Internet forums. But I do try to drop in here at least once a day.

George

My-my, I have to give it to Clogs this time. What a clever marketing technique. I thought that was just a name that Ilene had given them because it sounded like something Ilene would come up with. LOL Too funny.

When we lived in Denver our family was frequently contacted for market research. DH and I did several sessions and got to see the new products sometimes years before they hit the market. Once they tagged our oldest daughter to participate in one and we thought it would be fun for her to do. Turned out it was small hard candy and they asked each one of them what they would name it if it was their choice. She came home and told us all about the survey and what she had told them to name it. We were shopping one day and she found it, "Pop Rocks", the name she had suggested.

I participated in the Lipton test on those little bags of pasta that have the cheese and stuff already in them that are still on the market.

Dawn,
I know many places say plant in a block. I never have. My mother didn't, the farmers I was around didn't and our old ways always worked. Like I said I do plant closer. I fertilize heavily and use chicken manure if available. If not add cottonseed meal, horse manure and corn gluten in the fall and let set all winter. That was till this year after the tests all showed so high last fall. I think my close spacing helps with germination. 8-10 inches a part in rows 18 inches a part keeps them close enough for good germination. I found one years and I planted 8 rows 40 ft long. I used 14-16 inch spacings on rows 2 foot a part and had worse germination overall. I'm not encouraging anyome to plant my way. Just stating it works well for me. The other things is I rotate the area I plant it in every year. So never in the same spot two years in a row.

Yes some on here missed their calling as comedians. hehe. I'm still trying to figure out what my calling was. Some would say a pot stirrer.

Yes imagine the migration will start back north later today and tomorrow. Imagine you can tell if it was a W or a L by the fact if there is horn honking on the retrun trip.

Heading out to start garden clean up. Will leave the few tomatoes still ripening but the rest will come out. Will pull the carrots which I don't usually but like I've stated I'm going to turn it all under. I haven't in a few years and after this year feel it will be wise to do so. I imagine by next week everything else will be pulled. I have put a few more pictures up on my Photobucket site of the later ones for anyone interested. Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: 2009 Garden

Jay,

I think, too, whether a larger block is needed or not is also dependent on the wind in their area. I know folks with 'city gardens' in backyards surrounded by nearby homes and buildings and all those wooden privacy fences who have pollination problems even if they plant in a block. I do know someone here who got decent pollination (but not entirely full ears) with only one long row, but most folks here do 2 or 3 rows as a minimum. I always plant at least 4 and usually have good results. I did have good pollination with 2 rows one year, but it was an ornamental corn I planted just for fun and I wasn't going to be depressed or anything if it didn't do well. And I have planted a single row of Red Stalker (to have the red stalks for fall decoration) and been happy with it, but didn't have completely filled-ears, which was OK since I grew it for the stalks.

I don't rotate my corn because it is growing in the non-raised bed areas so it has to stay where it is. I save the raised beds for plants that are pickier about drainage. We need to cut down a couple of large trees on the edge of the woods this winter though, or I soon will be growing corn in shade! I suspect that wouldn't work out too well. I only give the corn bed compost and other organic matter as amendments but I do add Plant-tone or Vegetable-Tone or whatever at planting time.

The game is over and OU lost. I can tell you from past experience that means the local police and OHP will have their hands full with drunk drivers and road rage/wreckless driving.

I was rooting for UT this year (someone in our house has too, and I am the native Texan) so I am happy, but the others here are not as happy. Really, I root for both sides because I spent 39 years in Texas and the last 11 here--so it is a game that always leaves me happy either way. We just this second had our pagers go off for a grass fire along I-35 (I can't imagine anything is dry enough to burn) but it is too early to blame it on OU traffic. LOL

The photo of Black Brandywine made me want to crawl into the computer screen and eat it. I'm already dreading how long we'll have to go without a fresh tomato once the fall harvest is gobbled up.

I need to go out to the garden and pick what is there, and I need to decide pretty quickly if I am going to cover up what's out there (don't really think I will), or let it freeze if we get hit with patchy frost tonight. Last night we went several degrees colder than forecast, and if that repeats tonight, my garden may say adios. I'm inclined to let it go. It's been a very productive year, but I am tired of picking and canning and freezing and dehydrating. I think the Little Red Hen needs a break.

Dawn

Waaaaaalllllll, maybe I could be pursuaded to show up at the spring get-together in full regalia, but I think it'd be a let-down for you to actually see it. Our imaginations (well, at least yours ) are probably much more vibrant than the real thing. LOL At least I wouldn't have to wear a name tag.

George, what's the second-best corn to grow to grind? Keep in mind that DH is a-skeered I'm gonna poison him so he probably wouldn't eat cornbread that was pink or blue.

Yesterday I made a dish called "Beans and Greens", and it was really good. DH didn't like it though. It was good that I didn't make very much. Here's the recipe:

Beans and Greens
2 slices bacon, chopped
1 small red onion, chopped
3 cloves garlic, crushed
1 bunch kale or chard, roughly chopped
1 bunch beet greens, roughly chopped
salt to taste
1 quart cannellini or other light-colored beans, with liquid.

Cook the bacon till crisp, drain, and set aside. If you want to, you can saute the onion, garlic and greens in the bacon drippings, until the greens are wilted, but I prefer to just put them in the pot with the beans and skip that added fat from the bacon drippings.

Combine all ingredients in a pot. Or put them all in a crockpot. Cook until the flavors have combined and the greens are tender.

The recipe doesn't call for it, but when I tasted it I knew it wasn't going to fly for DH, so I added a little brown sugar and some cider vinegar. It's good either way, though, in my book. My German ancestors always added cider vinegar to their beans, AND to their greens.

I think next time I make this, I will cut the beet greens into tiny pieces (I use the leaves AND the stems), so that it will look less spinach-ey (I think that's what turned DH off) and will save the chard to add towards the end of cooking so it'll still be a little on the crunchy side.

Dawn - I don't think that Jay has much problem with lack of wind for pollination where he lives. He probably has to plant close so he can put hobbles on the stalks to hold them up. It seems to me that what few trees there are in that area all lean in one direction from the wind force. LOL

I agree that Jay's place has all the wind it needs....and a whole lot more. He could probably grow one plant in all that wind and it would pollinate its own ears just fine. I just hate to see new gardeners plant one row of corn and then give up on corn forever because that one row had pollination issues....and it happens a lot here in southern OK.

Dawn

Yes I have plenty of wind. And you can tell the south side of the trees by the way the limbs lean and also that side of the tree is shorter. I would never suggest anyone plant less than 2 rows. But have seen 2 rows planted in this area and also in the area around Hutchinson where I used to go a lot with success. Like I said everywhere I've seen two rows the spacing has been closer together. And if anyone wanted to try closer spacing I would suggest try it on a small area and see how it works in their garden. It is like tomato plant spacing. I've used as little as 24 inches and as much as 4 foot. The last two years has been 44-48 inches. I can't tell a lot of dfference. Of course like mentioned with the corn we have plenty of air circulation. So not the problem that many areas have. The main reason I space wider on the mater plants is disease. Jay

Jay,

I've seen a lot of those leaning trees growing through parts of west Texas, but here we have oodles of trees and we're in a creek hollow (or, as some here say, a holler) so we're at a low elevation and our trees don't lean the way some do that are more exposed.

I have tried various amounts of spacing with tomato plants too, from 18" for some of the dwarf determinates to 36" or 40" for larger indeterminates. Tess's Land Race Currant really needs nothing within 48" of it on any side, but I usually put something closer on at least one side of it. I am not sure it makes a lot of difference in terms of disease though....maybe with Early Blight in a very wet year, but otherwise, the incidence of disease seems more or less the same. I do think I get higher yields on plants spaced farther apart.

Dawn

Ilene,

Years ago when I asked for recommendations of corn varieties which would be good for grits and cornmeal and resistant to getting blown over, Glenn & Linda Drowns recommended Mesquakie Indian, Blue Clarage and Glenn Beasly. I would add Cherokee Squaw, which I know they are going to offer this year. Cherokee Squaw is a VERY good corn DarJones, who grew it out for them, this year (using seed I supplied) is raving about the variety.

Actually, I believe that there are A LOT of very good corns out there. But this is where I'd start.

George

Hmmm. I just went To Sandhill's website and they don't have Cherokee Squaw on the list yet. I'll keep watching. Thanks George!

Illene,
From my past observations of their site it might be late Dec or Jan before they update the online site. JD

This year I used a cedar tree (with limbs cut off) as the center for a pole tepee, with strings from the top down to the ground. I planted pole beans on one side and cucumbers on the other. The cucumbers never liked vining up the strings unless I forced them to. The pole beans took off and created a very dense cover for the strings. I was able to get a couple of pickings from the pole beans but I had to stop when they were above my reach. I refuse to pick from a ladder, especially since I couldn't have gotten close to the top without leaning, and I try to do nothing on a ladder if I can avoid it. :-)

Next year I will probably try something different for the pole beans, possibly using cattle panels. I don't know what I'll plant on the tepee, but it won't be pole beans!

Also, my beans had plenty of bees, both bumble bees and honeybees. It was an interesting experience picking beans standing in the center of the tepee surrounded by the beans with bees humming away. I wish now I had taken my tape recorder up to the garden and recorded how it sounded.
Tina

Tina, why don't you try the cattle panels bent into a hoop. Here is a picture of mine growing. This is three cattle panels bent, held in place by steel t-posts and then wired together. I end up with about a 20 foot row by planting on both sides. As you can see, most are picked standing inside the frame in the shade.

{{gwi:1115242}}

Oh, I love that idea. I have plenty of room so that's not a problem. I already knew I wanted to grow my cukes and melons on cattle panels but I love the way this looks arched over.

And how did you get a picture in your post? I tried posting a picture of my tepee in the hort section and I'm not sure it posted correctly. It shows as a teensy-tiny square and you click on that to see the big picture.
Tina

Glenda, what kind of beans are those?

Ilene - I am going to try Hickory King next year. I bought mine at Baker Creek but they also have it at Wilhite for a very good price. If I like it I will most likely buy from Wilhite next year. I am buying a lot of open pollinated varieties lately.

115 days. Plant height 71/2 to 9 feet. Ear length 7 to 8 inches with 10 to 12 rows of large white kernels (the largest of any white variety). Small cob. Roasting ear variety. Works well for grits, meal and tortilla flour.

Here is a link that might be useful: Willhite Seed

This was taken last year; I couldn't find my picture of this year so those were Kwintus from Park Seed Co. It is a wonderful bean, flat, very long and has white seeds. The strange thing is that I have tried to save seeds before and about half the seeds will be bad,

Tina, I downloaded a free shareware program called Irfanview to downsize all my photos that I want to share.
Then I upload them to Photobucket (there are lots of others besides). Then, I just copy the HTML code under the picture (the next to last one), come back to the forum and paste it where I want it. I do a preview to be sure I have it right each time.

I have grown the beans on this frame since a tornado bent it and tore off the poly when I was using it for a greenhouse. I think it has been about 4 years now. I had the panels on hand back then. I wish I had a couple more.

Hope you get one up. I think I bent mine to where I had about 6 feet between them. You do one at a time and need help! I can't add to mine because of the cherry tree at one end and the garden fence on the other.

bump!

I see that this has been bumped up by those of us that don't sleep at night. LOL

I'm afraid that I have little to report on my beans so far. I planted Kentucky Wonder on a cattle panel and most of them are about 2-3 inches tall now. Then I planted a row about 14 feet long of Contender Bush beans and I could see them peeping through the ground today. I'm sure you guys and gals down in the Zone 7 areas are well ahead of me.

We had a salad from greens grown in the garden for dinner tonight. The potato plants had to be hilled today. The peas are about 6 inches tall and just starting to grab onto the cattle panel. Normally they would be blooming by this time, but I was too late getting them planted this year. The tomato and pepper plants look about right for this time of year but are not likely to grow a lot until the warm weather returns. I am hoping that it will be cool enough for the broccoli, but warm enough for the summer stuff......might as well wish for a perfect world.

Carol,

Nope, your beans are ahead of mine. The only ones we have in the ground are two 8' long rows of Contender bush beans in our granddaughter's little garden, and maybe 15 plants in one of the main garden's raised beds....because I wanted to use up what was left of the Contender bean seed in that packet since it was already a couple of years old. We've been busy hilling potatoes too, and I am glad. At least something is behaving normally despite the weather.

We're still having an occasional very cold night here that's encouraged me to wait a bit before going wild planting warm-season stuff. Beans exposed to too much cold early in the growing season often produce poorly, so I just don't get in a hurry with them. Our Monday night low (which, I guess, happened after midnight so technically Tues. a.m.) was 41 and beans aren't happy with temperatures like that. It really is too cold for the beans we have in the ground here....they're barely growing at all.

Next week, if the temps look good for every night, I might start doing my major bean plantings. We'll see. I learned to 'not' plant too early by watching Fred plant too early every year when we first moved here...and probably 2 out of 3 years he had to replant at about the same time I was planting my first batch. So, I saw with his big garden (which was a couple of acres at the old home place) that early planting doesn't pay off very often. He's a great gardener, but an impatient one.

We have our granddaughter here visiting for a couple of days....so I probably won't get back into the garden (except to harvest) until tomorrow after she's gone home. We picked the first 4 tomatoes yesterday, and will have 5 or 6 more by the weekend. Today we need to pick lettuce, strawberries and Sugar Snap peas.

I have been slowly planting tomatoes and peppers, but with the cold temps at night still hitting occasionally I haven't felt any need to rush. I hope the arrival of May puts an end to these recurring cold nights. The cool season crops are growing like mad, but the warm-season ones aren't. We need a little more sunshine and warmth, and instead we're getting clouds and winds. I can't remember, but either Wed. or Thurs., we're going to have some vicious winds and I think they'll be worse west of I-35 and worse the further north you go.

Dawn

Our lowest forecast was 44 I think, and that was last night, and tonight it is supposed to be 45, then back into the 50s and 60s. I planted my beans early, but it was worth a shot and I have plenty more.

We don't get a lot of windy days so I was surprised to see that 'wind' forecast from Thursday, especially when the expected temp is 82 that day. Then the wind is followed by a prediction of 3 days of scattered thunder storms.

I got the grass mowed yesterday and got the weed eater plugged in and ready to go and it was out of string. I tried to open it and it wouldn't open. When DH came home, I asked him to please fix the weed eater for me. He came back in and said, "Well, I guess you can weed eat as soon as you go buy a new weed eater." I hope I can get that done today, but it's not looking good. LOL

I have a friend that is very ill and, in fact, is on the transplant list for a new liver. She was trying to make a little outfit for a new grandson and got about 3/4 of it finished and had problems. She called and ask me to help her. I got it last night and she flies tomorrow morning, so no pressure here! It is hard to work on a project that someone else has started but I'm going to try and finish it for her. She is a good friend and I wanted to help her, but it sure changed my plans for the day. DH doesn't work tomorrow so maybe together we can catch up on the yard work. It needs to be done BEFORE we get more rain.

I planted a tiny block of dent corn as a trial. I want to grind some and see if it would be worth the effort to grow it every year. It is about 3 or 4 inches tall and it looks like every seed germinated. If it does well then I will find a bigger and better spot for some next year.

Carol,

Would you believe we dropped to 40 degrees a little before sunrise? It felt cold out there until about 9 or 9:15 a.m. and then it started feeling better.

I am concerned about that wind, and the worst of it won't even hit my part of the state. Wind like that with temps like that is like subjecting your plants to a blast furnace, but then you already know that because we've had similar hot winds before.

Weedeaters don't seem to last too long here, but then they get heavy usage. We've had a Stihl for 2 or 3 years and we bought one of those after-market string trimmer heads for it that has improved its performance a lot.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend and I sure do hope she gets a transplant in time. That is so kind of you to finish her sewing project for her.

I am still planting and mulching and staking and caging, but I'm seeing the end is now in sight....late this week or early next, but mostly just because the garden will be full at that point.

Dawn

So it's time to talk beans again, heh? Then please help me....I've grown bush beans many times so I'm cool with that....but this year, I'm planting soy- aka edemame. Grandson's request. I also have purple hull and pink eye cowpeas that I received in the Fall Sawp. Should I have already planted them? do they vine? What's the spacing recommendation? I've searched this site and I'm sure there's info out there...I just don't have the stinkin' time to read thru it all. I did the google thing too and this info was evasive. Help! DH is threatening to plant everything while I'm at work this week and I'm scared...very scared. I'm afraid if I don't give him a diagram (at least!) I won't know what anything is until it either a) sprouts and I can see a leaf or worse b) it starts blooming and producing!

Paula

Paula, I can only give you the answer because I asked the same questions last year. I had never planted black-eyed peas before. You DO NOT plant them when you plant beans. Dawn and George say that most will vine if they can find something to climb on.

Plan to put them in after the broccoli or another cool season crop that gets removed. Okra, cowpeas, long beans, melons, and sweet potatoes are veggies that come to mind for the warmer season.

I am sure that those in the know will come along and give you more info.

Paula,

All southern peas are true heat-lovers and perform best if planted in really warm soil and after daytime and nighttime air temperatures are staying consistently warm. (i.e. not in the upper 30s with frost on the blades of grass! lol)

Technically, you can plant them anytime your soil temperature at planting depth is at about 65 degrees for at least 3 straight days. I like to wait for it to hit 70 though. Seed planted early tends to just sit there and germinate slowly, and seed planted in cool soil tends to give you weak plants that are prone to damping off.

Because all southern peas (crowders, blackeyes, pinkeye puprplehulls, lady, cream, etc.) love heat, I use them as a succession planting for cool-season veggies like broccoli or lettuce or onions. I don't think I've ever planted them in April, and only rarely in May because my garden is too full of cool-season stuff then.

Spacing depends on how you grow them. If you are growing them in single rows, space the peas 2" apart and the rows 24" apart. If you want to waste less space on pathways, plant a double or triple row, with 1' between rows and maybe 4" to 6" (last year I used 12" and could have halved it) in between the plants.

Some southern peas are bush types, some are vining and some are semi-vining. There are many types of pinkeye purplehulls and some of them are semivining and some are bushy. If your seed envelope from the swap says pinkeye purplehull and doesn't say 'knuckle' or 'BVR', then they probably are the semivining ones because they're probably the plain old every day pinkeye purplehull. They grow like half runners...upward 12-18" or so and then sometimes they go off on a wild, horiontal tangent. Sometimes they sort of vine and wrap around one another a little bit. However, if there is a row of tomato cages in the adjacent row or raised bed, they've been known to reach across the pathway, grab hold of a cage, and climb it to the top. It is odd how they do that. This year I might plant them right next to our 7' tall fence just to see if they would climb it. I bet they would.

Plant lots of them. Lots and lots and lots. No matter how many you plant, they are so good fresh that you'll wish you had planted more. If you've never grown purplehulls, here's a tip: pick them when the hulls are purple. Not a little purple, not kind of purple, but fully purple.

I'm going to link the Pinkeye Purplehull Festival website. On that site you'll find all sorts of cool stuff, including growing information and recipes. If you've ever wanted to make purplehull jelly, the recipe is on this website.

Disclaimer: I am not responsible if your DH or anyone else's DH sees this website and decides they want to enter the rotary tiller races.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Purplehull Festival and Rotary Tiller Race

They were talking about this bean seed site on the legume forum. I enjoyed perusing the site, so I'm sharing.

Here is a link that might be useful: Heritage Harvest Seed

Dawn - you are too funny! And I've tagged that site to my faves!

Seedmama - thanks! I need more "enabling"! LOL!

Next year's Spring Fling may see much less yard and much more "garden space"...shhhhh, don't tell DH! Next he's going to worry that I'll take "early retirement"!

Remember, above, when I mentioned the Tennessee Cutshort/Long Cut Old Timey Greasy Bean cross? Well... I misplaced them, back in November and can't find them! Oh well! Maybe I'll see that one again.

In 2009, at the Spring Fling, someone gave me some Kentucky Red Cowpeas. Who was that? I'd like to know anything I can about them. This year they're going in the ground!

George