Susan,
Just a quick post. I will comment more later. I will also add a link. The posts by Mule are by the original breeder. I got the 3rd type he mentioned. A small 4-7 oz beefsteak with excellent flavor. Will grow 3-4 plants next year to see is they all grow the same type. I should have seeds coming from another grower for the saladette type. I will grow F5 plants next year. I communicate with a few other growers doing growouts on this cross. And like I stated above will be exchanging seeds and notes with them. You are welcome to seeds that I saved but I wouldn't guarantee anything on them yet. I read Laurel's comments about having a stable growout. The first I've seen where anyone claimed to have a stable growout in a few years. I did get seeds 2 years ago for a supposedly stable growout that wasn't stable. But some are getting closer. Like Mule says the beefsteak type is very good. Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: Purple Haze

And, to answer your question about whether or not filial generation numbers are labeled on retail plants, then the answer is yes, no and maybe.

'Yes', because some labels will say "Better Boy F-1" or "Celebrity F-1", etc. but 'No' because others will merely say 'Better Boy' or 'Celebrity' or 'Better Boy Hybrid' or 'Celebrity Hybrid F-1'. All true hybrids at the retail level are, by nature, the F-1 generation.

'Maybe' if you're dealing with a smaller grower/retailer who's involved in de-hybridizing and stabilizing or who's trying to stabilize a cross of two or more OPs. In the commercial retail world, though, normally only F-1s are labeled because the generation of a debridization or cross-pollinated variety is generally only of interest to those involved in either creating and stabilizing the cross or dehybridizing a version of a hybrid.

To the average person, F-2 or F-3 or F-4 is gobbley-gook that don't understand and aren't interested in. On the other hand, to tomato afficianados participating in projects like these, the F- generation data is very helpful, but most folks interested in this type of stuff are getting seeds or plants from other afficianados who label their F- generations on these projects and are not getting them from the typical run-of-the-mill retailer.

Dawn

Susan,
Dawn covered most of what I was going to comment about labeling hybrids and F generations. F1 is the first cross. Like Dawn said the numbers following the F is of use to those working with a specific cross. An F4 of one cross might be stable while an F6 of another cross won't be. I know of one effort to stabilize a cross that was still not stable in the F9 generation. Those involved in breeding seriously like Mule can explain why some take so much longer than others. Way deeper than I intend to get. So to an outsider the number doesn't mean alot.

Like Dawn said all true hybrids are in the F1 generation. So if I see a variety described as hybrid I assume it is F1. And to some extent that isn't always true. I won't go there at this time. Usually the only time you will see the F3, F4, ect is when a breeder or grower like myself is trying to stabilize a hybrid. I use it if I know what stage the seeds were when I received them. I have 5-6 varieties at the present time I'm either trying to stabilize or checking for stability. It can be fun. It can also be a lot of extra work. I do it because I really like some crosses and hope to stabilize them so they will grow true when I save seeds. Jay

Jay,

I didn't want to go there either. lol Now that we've alluded to it, I'll desbcribe it briefly for Susan.

Susan,

There are some people who believe that some varieties that are described as 'hybrid' might not really be hybrids after all, and you could assume, if you want to, that such a thing is done for reasons of greed or deception. I'm not going to name any names here and I bet Jay won't either, but I think a lot of it probably goes on and many tomato afficianados share this belief that not all hybrids really are hybrids. I'll go out even further on the ledge and say I am especially suspicious of any company that suddenly pops up with a so-called hybrid that is virtually identical to a very popular open-pollinated variety. Being a suspicious-minded woman, I'm not convinced the so-called new hybrid is different from the OP in every one (or maybe any one) of those cases.

Here's a hypothetical example. Suppose a beautiful, flavorful and growing-in-popularity bi- or tri-color variety was available that had the word 'tie dye' in its name and it was OP and readily available from many sources, generally those companies that carry lots of OPs. Then, out of the blue, suddenly a major seed company that I won't name comes out with a tomato that looks like it and has a similar name. Hmmm. Is it really a different tomato? Who knows. However, the 'new' one is generally more expensive than the 'old' one. Those kinds of things make one wonder.

Dawn

Hey, now, y'all, I am just trying to have a better understanding of the process of dehybridization and stabilization, and what an heirloom really is, including "created" heirlooms (only 1 of 4 definitions for heirloom), which is what Purple Haze appears to be. I am curious as to how that is achieved....the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Thanks for your explanations and your patience, but, please, do "go there".

Okay, so Jay, there are actually three "types" of 'Purple Haze', including a cherry, saladette, and a beefsteak? If that is true, do they attach a different name to each in the end, or an extension of the name Purple Haze, like Purple Haze Cherry, PH Salad, PH Beefsteak to make a distinction between the three?

I understand the "F" designation for defining each generation of hybrids, but what happens when the final result is achieved with all the desired traits grown out, and the undesired traits eliminated? Does it then become a deconstructed true Purple Haze, with no F label attached to it?

Susan

Susan,
I will give you my opinion to the questions you asked. I want to say as there is no one person or one source setting rules and standards and each breeder/grower has their own opinion you will find that not everyone agrees with mine. Many times there is no real cut and dry explanation.

Usually the breeders/growers I have associated with designate a grow out once it is stable as an OP or just the original name and drop the F designation. Like Purple Haze OP. And some would just list it as Purple Haze. Those that list that way feel if it doesn't say hybrid or have a F designation that indicates it is stable and an OP. In my experience they drop the F designation once they feel it is stable for the traits they were selecting for. There are many different ways of listing the different types. Some use the name and types. Like Purple Haze Beefsteak, Little Lucky Cross, Little Lucky Cross Heart,ect. I'm growing out a pink version of JD's Special C-Tex. It appears it isn't stable so I feel it was a cross. The one I'm selecting for is a heart type. I'm calling it JD's Special Pink Heart. The reason I like to see the original name included is so I have an idea about where it originated from. But some do create completely new names. And that is fine. Just makes it a little harder to find out where it came from and what the original cross was.

Susan Dawn covered the "I won't go there at this time" issue real well. All I will add is I've been told by former workers of certain major seed companies that some of the varieties they offered were actually stable and OP's as it is cheaper to produce seeds from OP versus producing an F1 hybrid. This is another issue where there are wide ranging views and posters can get hot discussing it. In the end it doesn't really matter. If you want to take a chance grow out F2 seeds and see what you get. I would say grow at least 4-6 and see if all are the same and all are like the parent you saved seeds from. If you feel it is stable continue to save seeds from it.

The issue of what an heirloom really is can also stir up heated debates. There are almost as many opinions are there are growers. Personally I don't care if one is an heirloom or not. I do care if it is an OP as then I can save seeds. I feel for it too be labeled an heirloom it should of been grown by an individual or family for several years. I don't really agree with the created heirloom classification. Again my personal opinion. But respect those who feel there should be that classification. In my opinion if Purple Haze is stabilized I would just call it an OP and not an created heirloom. Many companies and vendors list everything OP as heirlooms as they feel they will sell better if they do. In my opinion that is the main reason most vendors have for listing something as an heirloom. Most don't even bother to say created heirloom. Like Dawn said there are many times a "new" hybrid is listed and it makes you wonder if it is new or just renaming of a variety and listing it as a hybrid. Most of the time we will never know for sure.

Hope this helps some. Keep asking questions. That is the only way to learn. Jay

Thank you both for explaining this further to where I can actually understand it. It really is very interesting, even with all the varying opinions.

I am very interested in growing Purple Haze, the cherry or saladette, and it appears that Laurel's type is the saladette. I should probably order early to assure that I will get a plant.

Once again, thanks so much.

Susan

Susan,

As I see it, there are several different ways we see tomatoes being developed these days. I am not an expert in tomato genetics, though, and know next to nothing about applied tomato genetics. If you want to learn more about tomato genetics, Mule has a great website and you can learn a lot there. If I can find it, I'll link it below.

DEHYBRIDIZING: With regards to hybrids, back in the olden days, a hybrid was created merely by crossing two (or sometimes more) stable, open-pollinated varieties. From that cross, breeders (whether professional or amateur) planted the F-2 seeds and began selecting for the traits they wanted in a tomato, and with each generation they selected for those traits and kept selecting until they had stability.

Stability occurs when every seed from every fruit produces identical plants and fruits. Stabilizing can be harder than it sounds because of the ways genes sort and resort.

It is an oversimplification for any of us to believe most commercial hybrids nowadays come from a cross of two simple varieties. Rather, a hybrid comes from two breeding lines, and I think each breeding line can have 4 inputs. Each input is selected for certain desired traits, and a trained tomato breeder knows which traits are dominant or recessive and how to select breeding lines that express the traits they're looking for.

Since breeding of modern-day hybrids has become so complicated, so has dehybridizing of a commercial hybrid but it can be done. I know that Dr. Carolyn Male dehybridized Ramapo F-1 into an OP version after it was dropped from commercial production years ago. (Ramapo F-1 has since been brought back by Rutgers/NJAES.) There are some other so-called stable OP versions of some popular hybrids available now, but opinion varies as to whether some of them are stable or not.

CREATING A NEW VARIETY

Many professional and amateur tomato breeders cross known, named varieties, whether OP or hybrid, all the time in an effort to create something else. In many cases, as with Purple Haze, they're trying to create a tomato with prized qualities like excellent flavor and production. That's one reason you see lots of Brandywine crosses. Brandywine's flavor is superb, but it doesn't produce heavily in hot areas, so everyone wants to create a tomato that has Brandywine's flavor but that produces more heavily all over the country, or over as much of the country as possible. We're seeing the same thing with Black Cherry because its flavor is so wonderful and so unique, everyone would like to breed that flavor into a beefsteak or slicer or saladette or paste tomato or whatever. I'm wondering how long it will be before we have a black cherry/currant currant cross because you can bet someone's already working on one.

When the initial cross between two varieties is done, the outcome is, by definition, a hybrid or F-1. After that, though, as you grow out, select, grow out, select and repeat endlessly, you use the F-number to keep track of what generation seed and plant you're dealing with, but no one that I know of actually labels plants or seeds like that once a variety is truly stable. They simply label it with its name and it is understood that it is now stable and the F-generation name isn't needed because if you save seeds and grow them out, your plants/fruits will resemble their parent assuming an accidental cross-pollination didn't occur in your garden. So, you see, once Purple Haze is stable, it will just be Purple Haze, as I think Jay mentioned above.

HYBRIDS THAT AREN'T: If you watch tomato 'trends' over the years and decades, you'll see fads or trends come and go. A particular kind of tomato will be 'in' for a while and then something new will come along and replace it.

Black tomatoes are an example of this. When I first started growing black tomatoes, you probably could count the number of black tomato varieties available commercially on two hands (maybe one hand!) and I believe they all were open-pollinated. Now there are dozens. Where did they all come from? Are they all new or are some of them just the same varieties under different names? I used black tomatoes as an example, but the same thing goes on with all tomatoes. A specific type becomes "hot" and lots of varieties in that group pop up out of seemingly nowhere. Some are said to be hybrids and, invariably, those seeds are more expensive than the OP ones. The cynical side of me wonders how many of those are truly unique and how many are renamed OP varieties. Or, maybe they're hybrids that retain 98% of the qualities of the original OP parent that was black. Is there any purpose in creating a hybrid that varies little from the OP parent other than to charge more for the hybrid seed? Real hybrids are supposed to be unique enough that they're worth buying, but there's no guarantee that they are.

Will we ever know what is a true hybrid and what is a renamed or barely-different OP called a hybrid? Probably not, because tomato varieties don't come with a set of breeding papers like an AKC dog, so you can't trace their lineage nowadays like you sometimes could back in the old days. Back in the old days, when someone like Livingston or Glecker came out with a new hybrid, they would often say which tomatoes they crossed to get it, or if it was a mutation, they'd say they found it in a field of whatever variety. So, back then, you knew that 'Honor Bright', for example, was a sport found in a field of 'Stone' because Livingston said so. Or, if "Fejee" was the parent of a specific variety, the breeder might say so. Nowadays, none of the commercial firms tell you where their plants come from because those are highly-guarded trade secrets.

For a long time we all believed hybrids were created through massive amounts of fancy crossing and backcrossing and that we normal people who lacked training in tomato genetics couldn't save seed from a hybrid and plant it and grow anything that remotely resembled the F-1 we started with. We now know that's not the truth in every case. In fact, there are quite a few so called dehybridized hybrid varieties out there that seem to be stable and seem to be identical to the F-1 parent or at least nearly identical, and so similar we can't 'see' a difference, although the difference might be just a slight change in production or disease-resistance or whatever. So, when a person dehybridizes a hybrid, you wonder: was the parent a true hybrid or was it an O-P labeled as a hybrid just to trick the American public into thinking they had to buy expensive hybrid seed and that they wouldn't get anything worthwhile if they saved that seed? Hmmm. There's no clear answer to that, but tons of suspicions.

And that, my friend, has exhausted what little I know about hybridizing, dehybridizing and hybrids that might not be hybrids. Except I'll add this. Back in the day, it was easier for natural crosses to occur because more tomatoes had exerted styles. Nowadays, most completely modern types have retracted styles so natural crosses do not occur as easily...and I'm talking about insect-caused crosses. So, you're wondering, if what I just said is true, then why do some people still see natural insect-caused crossing occurring in their gardens? Remember that I said "most modern styles" and not "all" and, of course, many OPS are not modern at all. There's still a couple of kinds of tomatoes that have exerted stigmas, and that includes true currant (Lycopersicon pimpinellifolium) tomatoes, potato-leaved varieties of regular tomatoes (Lycopersicon esculentum), and any tomato which arises from the pollinated double flowers (aka megablooms or fused blossoms) on beefsteak versions of regular tomatoes (L. esculentum). That's why seed-savers still have surprises like Earl's Faux or Lucky Cross popping up here and there.

If you want to delve deeper into all things tomato, check out Keith Mueller's website, which I've linked below. For info on tomato breeding, click on the box labeled "Culture". For what it is worth, I think his crosses are some of the best new developments in the tomato world. I've only grown a couple, but I really like them.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: KM's Website

I forgot to comment on heirlooms. What we call heirlooms are merely open-pollinated varieties with a known history dating back in time. There was a point in history, way back when, that O-P varieties came accompanied by a history that told you where the variety originated....i.e., the Brandywine tomato originated in the Brandywine River Valley among the Amish people, or whatever. Over the years, these histories have grown and expanded and some people feel a lot of these histories are being added to as they're retold so you get to the point over the decades and years where it is hard to know what's true and what's not. So, I place less stock in stories unless they're well-documented in historial record from back in the day. Too much of the 'histories' we hear nowadays on retailer's websites have little historical record to back up what the retailer says.

When selecting a variety, I look for flavor, productivity and disease-resistance and don't really put any stock in the history of a variety. When it all is said and done, I don't care if it is an heirloom or an OP that has a documented history all the way back to 1879 or 1999 or 2009. What I care about is how well it produces and what it tastes like.

Heirlooms are the current trend. They get a lot of attention, a lot of press, etc. Everyone is jumping on the heirloom bandwagon. However, there are lots of good hybrids too (especially older hybrids) and I grow a mix of both.

Somewhere along the way, hybrids took a wrong turn. The breeders began selecting for red color, globe shapes, tough skin that could withstand handling, long shelf life that ensures a tomato picked June 1st in California looks perfectly fine on a store shelf in Oklahoma a week or two later and still looks good on your kitchen table on Father's Day. Oh, and along the way, they began breeding almost square tomatoes that pack nicely and tightly into a shipping crate.

When they did that, they forgot to breed for the most important thing----flavor!

Who cares if a tomato can be picked green by a machine, can survive tumbling merrily along a sorting conveyor belt, can be arrtificially reddened with ethylene gas, shipped 1500 miles, and last forever on a table or shelf IF what that gives us is a mealy, round, red thingie that tastes like mushy cardboard? Just because it looks like a luscious red vine-ripened tomato doesn't mean it is one.

And it is the failures in the world of commercial, grocery-store type tomatoes that lead us all to grow our own and to rely heavily on OP varieties to do so. We're all looking for a tomato that tastes like the one our Dad or Mom or Grandfather or Grandmother used to grow when we were kids. Why? Because they tasted so incredibly good.

We're looking for flavor, and we don't care if it comes in a tomato that's shape is round or oblate, pear or grape, etc. or if the tomato is black, red, purple, pink, white, green, yellow or orange (or bi-colored!) as long as it has great flavor.

Long ago, the breeders abandoned our taste buds so it is up to us to grow the tomatoes our taste buds crave.

Whew, Dawn, you really wrapped it up for me with all the that information, and I'll be saving this for some time so I can chew on it for awhile.

I don't know why, but I have always needed to know the answere to "where it came from" and "how it evolved". I'm still working on which came first, the chicken or the egg. I had also been reading about L. pimpenellifolium, the currants and their progeny, their characteristic exerted stigma versus the retracted stigma of most L. esculenta.

Thank you once again for the discussion and the link to the website which I'll be reading.

Susan

Dawn,
I know of at least a couple of Black Cherry/currant crosses along with currant crosses with other varieties. I have been offered seeds of them but personally I have no interest in them.

Susan Brandyboy is one hybrid that many find grows true. I found it did for me also. I know a few who claim it didn't for them. I could name a few others.

I will say again I don't pay much attention to the designation of heirloom. It is so misused and misunderstood that in my opinion a large majority don't qualify. Again everyone wants what is popular and what sells. If it has good taste, disease resistance and production I don't care whether it is a hybrid, heirloom or an OP. Just because it is labeled heirloom doesn't mean it will taste good. I've found many spitters labeled heirlooms. Again I'm like many addicted growers in our opinion that most growers "window buy". Like what they see advertised on the TV they buy. Jay

Susan,

You're welcome.

With your interest in tomatoes, there are two books I highly recommend. I first read them about 7 or 8 years ago when I was trialing large numbers of open-pollinated types and I wanted to know more about where all these tomatoes came from.

The first is by Andrew F. Smith and is "The Tomato in America: Early History, Culture and Cookery", University of South Carolina Press, 1994, and my copy is a paperback copy published by the University of Illinois in 2001. I enjoyed every bit of it and have reread it several times. I especially enjoyed the section on the tomato as medicine. Before reading it, I didn't know that "tomato pills" were a form of snake oil medicine touted to cure every ill known to mankind, and there was a great tomato pill war between competing manufacturers/sellers. I kind of giggled my way through that part of the book. There's also a bunch of fascinating very old recipes dating back to at least the 1800s.

The other is the book about early tomato breeder and seed seller A. W. Livingston and is called "A. W. Livingston and the Tomato". It was written by A. W. Livingston and his sons and was first published in 1893. After reading it, I went to Victory Seeds, which is the online source for the most varieties of Livingston Seeds you'll find in one place with their authentic history, and bought every variety of Livingston tomatoes they had. I still grow one or two Livingston tomato varieties every year.

I bought both of these books "used" for very reasonable prices on Amazon.com long ago and thoroughly enjoyed every bit of them. There are many more 'technical' tomato books out there, but I wanted these for the history.

I've read 10 or 15 tomato books in the last decade, and there hasn't been a bad one in the bunch.

Dawn

Ooooooh, thanks for those references to the books, Dawn! I will be trying to find them online. I have bought out of print books from a couple sources that might have them, too. Don't know they're out of print, just assumed so. And, yes, I am very interested.

When I became interested in raising moths, I bought a couple of "historical" moth books by noted Lepidopterists discussing the past adventures of "moth-ers" and their wars concerning identification, classification, and nomenclature of various moth species, some of which were highly inflammatory, but hilarious today. For example, what happens when two individual Lepidopterists find and name the same moth (remember, they have "healthy" egos). I love history and am never satisifed with just the "face" of anything. I want to know how they evolved and from whence they came.

I think there is still a lot of thought that the tomato has healing properties, notwithstanding the known health benefits of lycopene. Maybe I should study the history of infomercials as it dates back to snake oil salesmen! LOL I'm sure some of those infommercials are quite valid.

Jay, if you would be willing to part with some of your precious Purple Haze seed, I'd be highly honored.

Susan

Susan,
I will send you seeds when I start filling requests. If I receive any for the saladette type I will send a few of them also. Mule and Papa Vic are 2 breeders I pay attention too. Both very knowledgeable. Both have shared seeds with me. The Sweet Quartz x Black Cherry cross I grew a year ago was a cross Mule made. They use Sweet Quartz a lot for crossing when using cherry types. There is a Sweet Quartz x Currant cross that is supposed to be very good. Jay

Thank you for your generosity, Jay!

The Sweet Quartz X currant sounds interesting, too. I'll do some reading on it.

You have both been very helpful to this inquisitive gardener, and patient, too! Thanks a lot. I will also be looking up Mule's website and posts as well.

My reading is slowing down a bit. Guess it's time to go see the eye doctor because after I read for awhile (couple hours is good some days; others it may be shorter), my eyes are starting to get so blurry I can't see anything. Another sign attibutable to getting older, sigh......

Susan

Susan,
I can't believe I forgot to mention one of the premier individual breeders of tomatoes and potatoes. I had the privelege of talking to him on the phone once and also he sent me several potatoes to try 2 years ago. His name is Tom Wagner. He had a seed company called Tater Mater at one time. He has developed many varieties. Green Zebra is one of the most recognized. He is starting to release some more of his creations now. I will attach a link to his site below. Any time you can read something of his you will learn a lot. I have watch tapes of seminars he has gave. Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: Tate Mater

Wow! Thanks again, Jay! I'm learning so much from both you and Dawn.

I hope I'm able to retain some of this info. Bout the only thing I retain any more is water.

Susan

Jay,

Thanks for linking Tom Wagner's site. I had to pop right over and see what he's up to these days. I love the rainbow-like lineup of tomatoes at the top of the page.

I do hope Tom Wagner continues the release more of his varieties and share them with the world.

I've long wished he would write a book about his 'tomato adventures' over the years as he's bred so many wonderful tomatoes.

Dawn

Dawn,
I respect Tom for all of his work and his willingness to share his knowledge. He has shared some tomato seeds along with his potato varieties on another forum the last couple of years. There is one person who we both know who is threatening to spread some seed he sent that person with the agreement they would never be shared. In my opinion his breeding is very impressive. He has maintained breeding lines and made lots of progress on disease resistance in both tomatoes and potatoes. I hope to grow a few of his this year. Brad Gates striped varieties originated from Tom's work.

Susan another issue that there is lots of different opinions on are mutations/sports. Most of the dedicated breeders I've had the opportunity to ask questions about it say it is very rare. The odds of it happening are huge. You are more likely to win the lottery. You will see some varieties where there is many claimed mutations either to different colors or different shapes. I feel like most of those I've talked too. There is a lot less mutations than claimed. As one breeder told me. "Busy bees create most of the mutations". In other words they are crosses. I've been told a mutation/sport should grow true. If it isn't stable then it is a cross. I'm sure by now I've got you completely confused. I got your email and will try to pack seeds soon. Jay

What an interesting and informative thread. If I may ask a couple of questions taking this back the other way...

Does a supplier have to grow hundreds if not thousands of the parent OP plants each year to produce seed for each variety of hybrid tomato they sell? If so then with all the labor involved I can see why seeds are .10 apiece and wonder why not even more.

Also with very popular older varieties such as Betterboy or Celebrity is it possible that seed produced and sold are actually OP varieties? If not why haven't these varieties been dehybridized? Is there some kind of patent or copyright preventing the use of the name of that paticular named hybrid variety? Most casual growers wouldn't even bother saving seed even if the varieties were actually OP, so I don't really see the seed companies losing big money over it. I'm sure commercial growers would jump all over it though.

I'm like Susan in that I have an inquiring mind. Thanks,

Keith

Not confused at all, you explain things very well, Jay. I have read that mutations occur very rarely, and most of them are actually hybrids. I don't presume to know anything about genetics, but I can see where a hybrid would be much more likely than a genetic mutation.

Thanks again, Jay. I won't be planting seeds for a few months yet, so I'm in no hurry.

Susan