I would wait at least until February. I'd be afraid that your plants will get too large before you can put them outside. Here, in Tahlequah, I've had frosts from the middle of April til the first of May.

George

I am. I have shrub and perennial seeds outside in 4" pots that I sowed a couple months ago that the packet indicated they need to be sown in fall for at least 3 months cold stratification. I started some perennials in late summer which came up when the weather cooled.

Some SW Native perennials that I'm stretching the zone limit on came up too early but are coming along nicely in a south window. I kind of like having some seedlings inside to take care of each winter. Today I sowed barrel cactus and agave seeds. Outdoors I'm weeding, cleaning and doing prep stuff outside every time the weather is nice to get ahead for spring when it really gets busy. Also I'm doing some layering to get some new plants outdoors.

I'm still direct sowing a some native seeds I got in a couple of trades and some I ordered in fall(some are up). I planted some cool season ornamental grass seed (Mexican Feather Grass and Indian Ricegrass) that is up and have a few more native perennials I intend to wintersow in pots that I still need to get planted. I've started on my second big bag of potting soil and vermiculite.

Some types of pepper seeds take quite a while to germinate in my experience. You need a very warm spot. I would sow them earlier than tomatoes because some of them take a lot of time to start producing and maturing, especially some of the red chili types.

This would be a good time to start perennial herbs indoors and the perfect time to winter sow biennials, perennials or cold hardy annuals. A lot of that stuff needing cool temps to germinate is up and growing (along with the cool season weeds I'm pulling).

Late winter I plan to start plugs of a few more warm season Ornamental grasses I want to add and I'm planning to order some carex seed as soon as Jellito's website is back up to sow outside in pots late winter.

So yea, I'm eager. Have been for a couple of months now. I'm always glad when Christmas is over, that we've bottomed out and we are headed for spring. I have my marker set outside showing the shadow of the house on the north side. Coming up real soon, that shadow will get shorter and shorter and farther away from the marker. I do that every winter.

Gardenrod, Too eager? With the onions, the answer probably is yes, but it all depends on how cold your winter temps are during any given year. The problem with planting onions too early is that they are biennials, and just a few days of exposure to temps that are too low can cause the onion plants to go dormant. Then, when growth resumes, they go to seed before they can form large bulbs, or sometimes before they can bulb up at all.

Here in far southcentral OK I have planted onions as early as January 1st or 2nd, although the appropriate time for my part of the state, which is zone 7b, is around mid-February. One year, I planted onions on January 1st and it was a pretty warm winter and the cold temps never stunted them, set them back or caused them to bolt and I had a great harvest. The next year, we had a late very cold spell with snow and the onion plants froze and rotted and didn't even live long enough to bolt. That was in a very wet winter. So, when you plant early, there's a heightened risk factor and so much of what happens is purely dependent on the weather. If you like taking risks, planting early and possibly losing your plants might not bother you. If you aren't a big risktaker, you may decide the early planting isn't worth the risk. It is sort of a roll of the dice since you never can know for sure if the weather will work with you or against you.

In more recent years, my weather has been like George's, with late freezes and frosts into the first week of May, despite otherwise warm and sunny weather, so I've been planting onions closer to the last week of February or earliest March, and I get a better crop from a slightly late planting than from an earlier one. In any given year, though, we are just guessing because we can't predict if our weather is going to be either colder or hotter than average or drier or wetter than average. With cool-season crops, our harvest always hinges on whether the weather cooperates or not.

I've had all my seeds for weeks, but have resisted the urge to start any seeds indoors early. Any time I try to start seeds early, the weather turns evil and cold and keeps sending recurring bouts of cold, sleety, snowy weather about the time I should be transplanting tomato plants into the ground. So, I don't try to get too early with them. If I must have early tomato plants (and clearly I must, lol) I plant them only in containers that I can bring inside if cold weather threatens. I usually buy those early tomato plants from a retailer in the first or second week of February, around the time I'm starting seed indoors under lights for my main tomato plantings, which go into the ground in April. Having a few early plants in pots keeps me from starting my own seeds too early. Try to imagine what you'll do with early tomato plants that are taller and taller every day if the months of March and April have recurring rounds of cold and snowy or sleety weather. Keeping plants happy indoors when they are biologically ready to go outdoors and into a big growth spurt is incredibly hard. It could be easier if you have room for them in a greenhouse or sunroom that is heated up enough at night that they don't freeze nd well-ventilated enough or shaded with shade cloth so they don't roast on warm, sunny days.

Habanero peppers can be slow to sprout if you are sprouting them indoors under lights without a heated seedling mat to provide bottom heat. I start tomato and pepper seeds on Super Bowl Sunday, on a heat mat, but in separate mini-flats because the tomatoes sprout fast, often in just a couple of days, and the peppers sprout more slowly, especially the habaneros. I move the tomato plants' mini-flat off the seedling heat mat as soon as they sprout, and leave the peppers' mini-flat on the heat mat, often for 2 or 3 weeks, until the majority of the seeds have sprouted. Then, the tomato plants go into the ground as close to my proper planting date for them as possible, and the pepper plants go into the ground 2 to 4 weeks later. While young tomato plants can tolerate colder soil and cool air temps (though they must be above freezing) quite well without adverse effect, hot peppers in particular can stunt and stall and refuse to grow and set peppers for the longest time if they are exposed to soil or air temps that are too cool for them in springtime. So, by trying to start peppers too early, you can cause yourself to have later production, not earlier production, if you are not exceptionally careful about when the peppers go outside and into the ground.

I try to put my tomato plants into the ground around the first week of April, and pepper plants into the ground around the first week in May, or even slightly later, depending on the weather. Yet, I will harvest tomatoes and peppers both in June, and I think it is because neither the peppers nor tomatoes were exposed to temperatures that were too cold for them. It always amazes me how quickly a happy pepper plant that was never "too cold" will flower and set peppers, especially in comparison to a pepper plant that was put into the ground when temps were too cold.

Another way to look at it is that you can easily put 6 to 8 week-old tomato plants in the ground and get good growth and your first harvested fruits about 50-60 days later for an early type, but with peppers you need to put 10-12 week-old plants into the ground later than the tomato plants to get fruit relatively early. So, even when you start the tomatoes and peppers indoors together, the peppers need to stay inside longer to avoid negative chilling that can adversely affect their production for months.

For the last four years, I've had a hard frost and killing freeze on May 3rd or 4th although my area's average last frost date is (supposedly) March 28th, so I have become extra cautious about planting anything early. Both George and I have, within the last 5 years, had an odd hard freeze hit and wipe out tomato plants on a night when the forecast low was 50, but went into the lower 30s instead. It happened to me one year and to him the very next year, so I think we watch for late cold weather a lot more closely than we used to. I know that I do, and I believe he does as well.

I usually plant about a dozen habanero pepper plants in the ground, and generally make between 100 and 200 jars of Habanero Gold jelly every summer and fall. With habaneros, no matter how early you plant them, they will not flower well and set fruit until they are really and truly happy with the weather. Some years I am harvesting habaneros in early to mid-July and other years not until late August. They sort of march to the beat of their own drummer. The fastest-producing hab I've ever grown is Chichen Itza and this variety is delightfully early here in our garden and is a very heavy producer as well. I think its DTM is about 85 days from transplant but for me it produces much more quickly than that. It is the only orange-fruited hab I am going to plant from now on because it is so superior to the regular O-P orange habs. It performed incredibly well in very adverse conditions last summer when other peppers struggled a great deal to produced good harvests.

I wanted to plant tomato seeds and pepper seeds indoors in November, but talked myself out of it and am glad I did. We were so busy with all the holiday stuff that the young seedlings would have been very neglected. I won't plant any seeds indoors under lights to produce veggie, herb or annual flower transplants for another month at the earliest even though I'd like to. We just have too many late, recurring cold nights well after our average last frost date for me to get in too much of a hurry to get anything growing. Even when I put plants in the ground, I watch the weather like a hawk and cover up plants with an Agribon frost-blanket type floating row cover on any night I think the temps might drop too low.

I'll likely wintersow a few flower seed varieties in the next couple of weeks, but they won't even sprout until they're ready so there is no point in getting in too much of a hurry.

I'm always happy when the winter solstice has passed and the days start getting progressively longer, even though I can't really tell the daylight hours are getting longer until about the end of January. As far as putting anything in the ground early? Nope, won't do it. I feel like winter weather hasn't even really set in here yet, so we have a lot of winter to get through before I start thinking about planting. I have found I can get away with early planting about one year out of four, and that means the odds of success are too low for me to think it worthwhile to plant early.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

I've linked a catalog description of Chichen Itza for y'all in case it sounds like a variety you'd like to try.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Chichen Itza Hybrid Habanero

Dawn-
You appear to have a very difficult growing climate- I'm in Tulsa and have been quite successful with early plantings (especially greens). I do keep increasing the pot sizes of my tomato and pepper plants, and am able to bring them in when cold weather threatens, But- am surprised every year by how early I can leave them out and plant them in the garden.
I'm wondering if you might have a poor micro-climate and I may have a good one? Or maybe just a few lucky years?

My New Mexico seed catalog says peppers take as long as a month to germinate and to sow 10 weeks before setting out. I don't think you are early at all on the peppers. I have set things out and potted up too here in central Okla. Did fine. I grew chilis and stuffing peppers for rellenos a couple years ago and started them early January. I had nice big tomato plants with blooms forming by starting them early as well. I had potted up to gallon size by the time to set them in the ground.

Sounds like you will end up with those larger plants like the ones at the store they sell for a lot more money. I didn't read it that you were planning to set them in the ground early, I understood you to mean you will have nice big plants by starting early. I'm always anxious to get going and be ahead when the season starts.

Gardenrod, I am in a difficult microclimate--our property is a low-lying creek hollow in the already low-lying Red River Valley. So, since cold air sinks, we have had increasing bouts of late freezing or frosty weather into the first week of May for at least the last 4 years, despite an average last frost date of March 28th. It is very frustrating, but I've learned to deal with it.

The most frustrating aspect of it is that planting dates that worked very well for me from 1999-2005 or so have not worked out at all well since then, so I have had to adapt my planting practices accordingly. Just because I could start seeds in early Jan. in those years and transplant tomato and pepper plants into the ground in early to mid-March then, well, it doesn't mean I can do it now. When the weather pattern changes in a significant manner, you have to adapt along with it.

In 2011, I had to cover up my entire garden for two consecutive nights during the first week of May using frost-blanket-weight floating Agri-bon row cover, and I had tomato plants, potato plants and corn plants that already were between 2' and 3' tall. The only damage occurred where the wind tore the fabric loose from one anchor pin and a couple of Mountain Magic tomato plants that already had fruit on them suffered a significant setback, but if the plants had not been covered, I could have lost much of the garden. Been there, done that, and don't want to experience it again.

I don't mind losing plants if I plant extra-early because that's a risk I chose to take, but when I plant on time or late and still lose plants that already are quite large and productive just because we have a very late cold night, that is more frustrating.

And, it is interesting to note that even though I am starting seeds later and transplanting into the ground later, I am still harvesting at about the same time. An early start does not necessarily guarantee an earlier harvest because plants can tolerate cooler soil and cooler air temps but still not necessarily grow faster or produce earlier. Often the plants stay small until the air temps and soil temps reach a certain level.

Both starting seeds later and transplanting later makes me crazy, by the way, but not as crazy as having my garden freeze. I appease my need to plant tomatoes early by putting a few purchased plants in conainers in early to mid-Feb. Depending on the variety of those plants, I'll be harvesting the first ripe tomato from the container plants about the same time I am putting my own home-raised transplants into the ground. Without the container plants to keep me happy, I know I'd put my own plants into the ground too early and then have to cover them up over and over and over again. If I had a smaller garden, I wouldn't mind covering up plants, but with a large garden, putting out the row cover takes a long time.

Janet, Some peppers can take 30 days to germinate, but in my experience, not many of them do. Most of the ones I've grown from seed germinate in 1 to 3 weeks, and I'd estimate I've grown at least 150 varieties of peppers over the years. Habaneros, poblanos and Peter Pepper are the slowest germinators for me, whether they are on the heat mat or off of it.

Dawn

I plant my greens, onions & potatoes earlier than recommended, but keep enough that I can replant if they get frozen. I seldom have to replant.

Dawn- I like the idea of purchasing larger tomato plants in February to get the earlier harvest- I'll try that this year.

I don't know how early you will find larger plants anywhere, but I am seeing them earlier every year, leading me to think the big chain stores are discovering that lots of folks like getting a handful of large-ish plants off to an extra-early start. I usually find the first plants in stores are in 5 or 6" pots, have a main stem about the size of my little finger and either have blooms open or have blooms forming that haven't opened yet. The happiest day of winter for me is when I find those first tomato plants. If I take them right home and transplant them into large containers right away, I usually have fruit set within two weeks.

I used to have to drive down to the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area, which is roughly 80 miles one-way for me, to look for the early arrivals around Valentine's Day. Every year since 2009, the early tomato plants are arriving a few days earlier, and last year it was right around the first of February, which is not so far away at all. Also last year, the closest Wal-Mart to our house (it is about 20 miles south of us in Texas) had early tomato plants in the 5" peat pots or 6" plastic pots just as early as the Dallas stores had them, and that is a first. From now on I'll check the stores in Gainesville first before I drive further south to Denton or Lewisville.

I used to do what you do in terms of early planting of cool-season crops, but in recent years it hasn't paid off so I have sort of backed off from doing it.

If January is really nice and beautiful, like the weather here is today, I might do a little early planting. I always try to stay flexible and go with the flow and that means that a spell of nice, sunny weather does make me want to plant some things early.

The earliest I've ever purchased and set out onion transplants here is January 1st, when I unexpectedly found the onion plants at Marshall Grain Co. in Fort Worth while down there doing some shopping. I probably put them in the ground a couple of days later. That was in the early 2000s when my county was having winters that were described repeatedly as "a hot winter", with hot being relative of course, and I didn't lose many of those early onions that year. Most years, though, a big cold sleet or snow storm will hit them around mid-Feb., freeze them, and cause them to rot or bolt, so I don't push to plant them too early much any more. And, when I do, I plant cheap local big box store onions and save my pricier Dixondale plants for the recommended planting time.

Not having access to tomatoes as early as Dawn does, I am seriously considering starting a few right now to grow in containers for early tomatoes. Especially since the two volunteer seedling tomatoes that I dug out of the garden in early Oct are not Black Cherry as I thought they were (they were growing where I had Black Cherry last year and nothing this year) but instead look like Costoluto Genovese, my least favorite tomato all year. The young tomatoes are very convoluted like the CG are. So I think I shall start something else to put into 5 gallon pots first on the porch and later in the greenhouse.

That brings me to a question which Dawn, Jay and others have probably already answered but which I overlooked because I was never before interested in growing "container" tomatoes. What are the best varieties for such a project--and where are the best places right now to order seed online. The only seed I have is for indeterminate varieties.

You can grow any variety in a large container and I have found (somewhat surprisingly) that plants like Big Boy and Red Ponderosa produce much better (both earlier and huge yields) for me in containers with an early start than when planted in the ground at the recommended planting time. I think that's because the early start helps them beat the heat. Last year those two varieties gave me huge yields in April, May and June and then the heat slowed them down a lot once July arrived.

For small containers, these are my favorites:

For containers as small as 4" pots (though 5" or 6" pots are better): Red Robin, Yellow Canary, Orange Pixie.

For containers the approximate size of hanging baskets: Yellow Tumbling Tom, Red Tumbling Tom, Tumbler, Pear Drops

For 5 gallon or larger containers: Bush Big Boy, Fourth of July (available only from Burpee or Burpee-owned companies like The Cook's Garden), New Big Dwarf, Better Bush, Glacier, Sophie's Choice, Husky Red Cherry, Jaune Flamme, Green Grape, Bush Goliath, Cluster Goliath and Early Goliath. Harris Seeds also has some great determinate hybrids that produce pretty early in containers, including Red Defender and Scarlet Red.

There is only a very limited selection from local retailers of large tomato plants in 5-6" pots in early to mid-February, and the ones I usually see in stores are: Better Bush, Big Boy, Better Boy, Early Girl, Red Beefsteak (aka Red Ponderosa or Crimson Cushion), Husky Red and Husky Red Cherry. Of those, all produce great early for me except Early Girl, which is never early for me no matter what, no matter when, where or how it is planted. For whatever reason, Early Girl was only early for me in one year and it was the year I grew Bush Early Girl. However, Early Girl is a great producer even in August's heat, so I still like to grow it, but I don't rely on it for early tomatoes.

The most reliable early tomato variety that I've ever grown is Fourth of July, whether I plant it in containers extra-early or in the ground in late March or early April. I generally harvest ripe fruit from Fourth of July before Memorial Day, even when it is not put into the ground until early April and there's not many varieties that are reliably that early.

Some of the varieties I listed are available from Willhite. Most of them are available from Tomato Growers Supply Company. The hybrid Goliath varieties are available from Totally Tomatoes, and are different from the heirloom Goliath variety sold at Tomato Growers Supply (it is a late-season O-P variety). Fourth of July is a Burpee exclusive.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, Dawn. I will get an order made and some seeds planted soon.

You're welcome, Dorothy.

I ordered the Fourth of July seed (and a couple others) on one day and 2 days later got the email that said my order has shipped. So I will get started as soon as it gets here. And as soon as the Willhite catalog is here, I will order the broccoli. So thanks again, Dawn.

Dorothy, I posted this in another thread, but Wilhite said the web site would be updated this coming week. Carol