Ok, now I'm interested in this Tess' Land Race. Is this a small tomato? And does it really vine?

Dawn,
First of all, I rec'd your envelope today w/ the nat'l pickling cucumber seeds. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I'm so set on cucumbers. Greatly appreciated!!

I have began to go over where I would put things in my small garden but haven't drawn it out yet. I usually draw it out, which makes for a better plan for me. I'm kinda obsessive compulsive like that!! I usually draw a map and then change and change and change until I get frustrated and just plant!!

I'm trying to talk my husband into building me a long raised bed for my tomatoes and peppers. I'm thinking of putting a cattle panel down the middle so I can plant on both sides.

I have also dreamed of the trellis planting idea. I'm thinking cukes will go on there. Hoping to get one of those made up also. My mom has an old windmill that's broke, I may have to swipe it from her. It's not being used so she might not mind!! May have to trade for some homemade bread!! lol.

I'm not planting any beans as we are not big bean eaters. Just every once in awhile we like northern beans.

I do plan on planting several types of tomatoes just for eating and for canning. Also several pepper plants. We love the sweet yellow, orange and red peppers. Oh, and can't forget my zucchini squash. My kids and I love, love, love fried zucchini!! We had quite a bit, but not enough to last us thru the winter, which is what I would've liked. Will plant more plants this year!

My family also loves cantalope. So, will be planting several of those. Once again, I think I'll try the cattle panel and just get some netting to wrap around the fruit. We'll see how that one goes.

Oh ya, I have a small area by my house on the N side that was my very 1st garden area 4 years ago that I'm thinking of turning into my salad garden. Will plant my lettuce, cabbage, and onions in there. How close can I plant my lettuce and cabbage?

Here is my list of what I want to plant:

Red Burgandy Okra
Vining Okra
Hales Jumbo Cantalope
Ambrosia Melon
Straightneck Early Prolific Squash
Boston Pickling Cucumber
National Pickling Cucumber
Marconi Peppers
Sweet Banana Pepper
Heirloom California Wonder Peppers
Goliath Goldrush Pepper
Sweet Goliath Pepper
Mini Belle Mix
Super Heavyweight Pepper
Fresno Chile
Roma Tomato
Goliath Tomato
Baker Family Heirloom Tomato
Beefsteak Tomato
Porter Tomato
Porter Improved Tomato
Black Cherry Tomato
Islea Tomato
Giant Red Hamburger Onion
Evergreen Bunching Onion
Ithaca Lettuce
Golden Acre Cabbage
Ferry's Round Dutch Cabbage
Sweet Leaf Plant

Along with all these I've already got my strawberry plants from the last 2 years. Hopefully this year they will thrive and we'll get a bountiful harvest. We LOVE strawberries!!

So, I'm waiting on an email from Jay. And after that I may be adding more to my list. And of course, after reading the other ideas, maybe more!!

My kids are going: "WOW" that's a lot!! I don't think so compared to what you all are planting!!!

Melissa

Melissa,

Wow! The cucumber seeds arrived quickly. I think DH left our house at about 2 p.m. to go to town and run a few errands and he had a stack of stuff to mail for me, so I am surprised they arrived at your house in the very next day's mail.

Tess' Land Race Currant is a currant-type tomato originally from the area of Maryland's southern shore. Like all currant tomatoes,the fruit are teeny-tiny....if I had to guesstimate their size I'd say each fruit is about 1/2" wide and tall, so they are very small even in relation to the standard cherry types. If you've ever seen any other kind of currant tomato like Coyote, Red Currant, Yellow Currant or Sara's Galapagos, then that's the size of fruit you'd see on Tess's. The tomatoes have amazingly good flavor. They are normally red, but this variety is not quite stable so sometimes you'll see an off-color like yellow, gold or a sort of rosy-red pink. I don't see the off-color type fruit very often. It takes forever to pick them, and if I pick one, then I pick between 200 and 600 at a time. They are great for dehydrating and putting up for winter because they dry quickly because of their small size.

They don't vine like a morning glory or hyacinth bean....they just grow like any other indeterminate type tomato but it seems like they never stop growing....hence the amazing height and spread.

For the first few years we lived here, I carefully drew out elaborage plans on graph paper trying to lay out the plantings exactly as I wanted them to be. Of course, I erased things until I tore holes in the paper. I'd have my initial planting scheme, then I'd have drawings of succesion plantings that would follow the early plantings as I harvested them. Nowadays I just make a plan in my head and then do my best to remenber what it is. Sometimes when it is time to plant the succession plants, I have trouble remembering what was originally supposed to go where, but it always works out in the end.

For your lettuce and cabbage plantings, you'll have to figure out your spacing based on the varieties you're growing. I am growing mini-cabbages from Johnny's Selected Seeds so they can be planted very closely together. I'd use much wider spacing for regular cabbages. Lettuce is the same way. Unless you're growing a real tall Romaine type or a very large iceberg type, you can plant them really close. Leaf lettuce can be scatter-sowed closely together and harvested using the cut-and-come-again method. Check your seed packets, see what they say for spacing of the particular varieties you have selected, and let their mature size be your guide. You can sow them more closely together if you're using the cut-and-come-again method, but if you are going to wait and harvest each at its maximum mature height, then follow the seed packet spacing guidelines.

You are growing a lot of varieties. I'm trying to raise as much of our own food as I can, and that's one reason I grow so many different varieties---so we'll have all kinds of variety in our diet. I also use the huge number of varieties as a hedge against crop failure. Sometimes bugs are attracted more to one variety than to another and some varieties have more disease issues than others. Therefore, planting a larger number of varieties ensures that even if a certain variety has a serious pest or disease issue, others might not have those issues and I'm ensuring I'll still get a bountiful harvest

The only green beans I've ever liked are home-grown ones. I despise the flavor and texture of most canned green beans, but the frozen or fresh ones from the grocery store are OK. Nothing, though, beats the taste and texture of home-grown green beans. I remember that a few years ago one of DS's college-aged girlfriends ate dinner at our house and couldn't get over how good fresh green beans were. She said "I can't believe green beans can taste like that. They are so good!" I told her she'd have to have a garden and grow her own or shop at a farmer's market if she wanted for great green beans to be a regular part of her life. She told me that her dad "used to" grow a garden and she'd have to get him to grow one again so she could always have fresh green beans. It does amaze me how often people who don't like and don't eat many vegetables will change their mind after they've tasted home-grown ones. That's one more reason to grow your own.

Dawn

Oh my, oh my, oh my. I've spent every spare (and some not-so-spare) moment reading on here the last several days. DH is laughing at me. I had to stop before I made plans for him to till up our ENTIRE acreage!

Thanks to the swap....my list is GIANORMOUS! Plus, I've a list to order from Baker Creek and Totally Tomatoes. The only thing I don't have yet are potatoes, onions...and broccoli. (oh yes, and a notebook to start my garden journal!)

Any recommendations on a good prolific broccoli and where would I find seeds? I've scoured the previous posts and haven't really seen an answer. (may have missed it because I'm cross-eyed now!)

Paula

Paula,

Oh, just go ahead and till up all the acres and plant to your heart's content. No, really, don't! Rototilling and planting is easy compared to the maintenance needed later to weed, mulch, water, harvest and put up the harvest. You don't want more garden than you can manage in the time you have to devote to it.

I think we enlarged our veggie garden every year for the first five years we were here, but then the deer put a halt to that when they discovered the garden beds outside the fence. The new ground we're breaking this year will be fenced before a single plant goes into that area. Otherwise, between the rabbits and the deer, there's no point in planting anything.

For broccoli, I have been happy with the performance of Packman for quite a few years now. Premium Crop is another I've grown with pretty good results. Some years I have planted Early Dividend (because it actually is pretty early) and Small Miracle (because the plants can be spaced pretty closely together). Burpee has the Bonanza variety which performs well in hot areas, but I haven't planted it before--this will be my first time to grow it. This year, I looked for Early Dividend and found that the carrier from whom I usually purchase it had replaced it with Major, so I'm trying it this year instead of Early Dividend, unless I find some Early Dividend seed floating around in my big storage container of seed packets.

Nichols Garden Nursery has Packman and Premium Crop broccoli seeds. So does R. H. Shumway. Burpee has Bonanza. Vermont Bean Seed company has Packman. Harris Seeds has Packman and Premium Crop. Pinetree Garden Seeds has Major, Packman and Premium Crop. Park Seeds carries Small Miracle and so does Containerseeds.com. You probably could find those varieties in other catalogs, but I seldom see them on store seed racks. The sources I listed are just the ones I remember.

Dawn

Dawn - after hours of pouring over catalogs, searching this site and reading older threads I finally just got on here to ask.....

and of course, found a catalog I hadn't seen yet! The Jung catalog was buried in the pile. Guess the name brought me in...I was once a pretty devoute student of Carl Jung's teachings....ANYWAY, I found they carry the Packman variety also! Thank you so much for the other references as I will definitely be checking those too. I'm going to try Dixondale Farms for my onions this year also. The previous reviews and comments really sold me. Now I just hope they do too! For potatoes....I'm probably going to stick with either Potatoegarden.com or my local K&K nursery.

I'm going to really step out on a limb and try wintersowing my coldweather crops also like cabbage, beets & broccoli. Of course, I'll keep reserve seeds just in case. Ilene's blog gave me some great direction so I think I'm gonna try it. Wish me luck!??

I can't wait to retire and have time to devote to gardening. Although I want to grow more and more, I'm just going to limit myself to a few of most everything. In the meantime, I'm just gonna keep doing what I've been doing...practice, practice, practice and mulch, mulch, mulch!

Paula

Paula,

You're welcome.

As you know, I love Dixondale. All my life I'd just bought whatever onions the nurseries had in bundles in those little wooden onion shipping crates. It took a lot of urging from Gone Fishin' (Bill P.) to convince me that buying higher-quality transplants from a high-quality grower would give me a bigger and better crop. He was so right and I am glad I finally started buying from Dixondale.

I don't know if you had found GW by February of last year, but when my Dixondale onions arrived, each bundle had a lot more plants in it than usual. I sent them out to quite a few people here because, after all, one family can only use so many onions in any given year. It will be interesting to see if Dixondale 'overpacks' their bundles this year. They've always put a few extra in each bunch of onions, but last year it was a few hundred extra and I don't know why.

Good luck with the wintersowing. I am sure it will work out just fine.

Be careful what you wish for. I quit my job in 1992 to do the whole stay-at-home mom thing and because I did a whole lot of volunteer work during those years, I only had a small garden. As our son was growing older and we were moving here, I wanted to buy enough land to have room for a "big" garden so I could spend all my time in the garden raising our own fruits, veggies, herbs and flowers. Did I get my wish? Well, of course I did. At some point, though, you realize that you really do not want to spend every single minute of every single day out in the yard and the garden. I've had to learn how to 'work smarter, not harder' in order to keep the yard and garden somewhat under control without (a) losing my mind and (b) spending 18 hours a day gardening, harvesting or putting food by.

I spend more time than most people in the garden during planting season, but that's because I'm getting all the mulch, plant cages, trellises, labels, stakes, etc. in place as I plant. Otherwise, I never get back to them as quickly as I should. It is the same way with weeding. If I spend all my spare time in May and June working to keep the weeds down, the rest of the year is a breeze. And, if I lose control of the weeds in May/June, I never really regain control.

Having a lot more land to plant this year is making me nervous, but I will just cut myself some slack and know that there will be more weed issues in newly broken ground. Gardens, after all, don't have to look perfect--all they have to do is to do their job and produce. Having said that, I do like a nice, neat and tidy garden, but sometimes it is really hard to keep a big garden looking like that.

Dawn

I'm sure this will not all happen- 1/2 the beds need to be built- including the one for the potatos next month. But this is the plan now. I am trying to seed as much as possible and use the farmer's market as back-up.

ONION Texas Early Grano, Valencia, Stockton red
LEEK: Scotland
GARLIC: Mother of Pearl, Italian Easy Peel, 2-3 I cant remember from last years plantings (softneck), and misc sprouts from the grocery store/compost pile
TURNIP: Purple Top white globe
PARSNIP: Turga (for fall planting)
CARROT: Kurota Chantenay, Carrot Napoli F-1
RADISH: Cherry Belle, White Icicle
POTATOS: Yukon Gold, La Soda Red, and perhaps a purple potato
SWEET POTATOS
JERUSALEM ARTICHOKE

CELERY, French Dinant (a gamble)
CAULIFLOWER: All-The-Year-Round
BRUSSELS SPROUTS: Long Island
BROCCOLI: Di Cicco
KALE: Flowering, Vates Blue Curled
CHINESE CABBAGE: Tai Sai
CABBAGE: Integro F-1, Faroa F-1

QUINOA: Temuco
MUSTARD SEED: Brown
SUNFLOWER: Jerusalem Dwarf, Mammoth Gray, Russian Mammoth
POPPY: Pepperbox breadseed
SESAME: Afghani
AMARANTH: Hopi Red Dye

CORN: True Gold

ARTICHOKE: Imperial Star
FENNEL : Zefa Fino Florence

LETTUCE: Cos, Buttercrunch, Drunken Woman, Outredeous, Simpson
CHARD: Orange Fantasia, Fordhook Giant
NATURSTIUM
RADICCHIO: Early Palla Rossa
SPINACH: Bloomsdale
CRESS: Upland
PURSLANE: Erect Largeleaf
SORRELL

HERBS (grown as Annuals):
Cilantro
Basil- Sweet, Lemon, Lime, and Thai
Epazote
Dill
Lemon Grass
Summer Savory
Chervil

BEANS:
Black Seed Blue Lake Pole
Blue Lake Bush
Cannellini Half-runner
Milta Black Tepiary
Purple Hulls
Paint Dry, Bush Soup Bean
Possible some of GeorgeÂs beans and Soy, edamame
Maxibel Haricot Bush

PEAS:
Cascadia Bush Snap
Sugar Snap
Oregon Trail Shell
Sugar Pod Snow

SQUASH:
Crookneck Yellow
Buttercup Winter
Cocozelle Bush Zucchini
Possibly a vining zucchini

CUCUMBERS:
Bush Champion
Lemon
Mideast Prolific

MELON: Charantais Cantalopue

OKRA: Clemson Spineless

TOMATOES: Ropreco Paste, Cherokee Red, Beefmaster, Sioux, Prize of the Trails, Peacevine Cherry, Santiam, German Queen, Stupice, and possible longkeeper or other late ripening/keeper tomato

PEPPERS: Cayennes (Long Red), Ancho/Poblano, Relleno, California Wonder Bell

TOMATILLO: Purple de Milpa

FRUIT:
Blackberries
Raspberries
Fig Tree
Strawberries (June & Everbearing)
Alpine Strawberries
Kiwi: Kolomokita (sp?) Artic Beauty

Here's my humble little list for the spring garden.

Romaine Lettuce
Great Lakes Head (Iceberg) Lettuce
Bloomsdale Long Standing Spinach
De Cicco Broccoli
Melting Sugar Snow Peas
Sugar Sprint Snap Peas

I'd like to add a couple more veggies to this list but I'm not sure what yet.

I'm still working on what I want to plant for the summer and fall.

Mandy

Mrs. Frodo,

What a wonderful list! Y'all surely will be eating well this year. And, you've got lots of time to finish those beds before the main planting season arrives.

Mandy,

You're off to a good start. I used to plant without making a list...just bought seeds and plants and threw them in the ground, but I always forgot one thing or another. I use the lists as a guide, and I try to stick to them, but sometimes I run out of room before I run out of plants or I impulsively pick up some sort of transplants at the store and then have to squeeze them in someplace.

The real advantage, nowadays, of making a list, checking it twice and getting all your seeds purchased is that the demand for vegetable seeds and fruit plants has skyrocketed the last two years....so planning ahead and buying seed early is more important than it used to be. It used to be that you could order seed sort of late and still expect to get it pretty quickly and everything would work out in the end. The last couple of years though, there's been some disappointed people as some companies havve just flat run out of some varieties and other companies have fallen far, far behind on shipping. I even noticed last year that the seed racks in our Wal-Mart were just picked clean of seed envelopes in no time at all.

I think everyone is doing a great job of advance planning right now and I'm so proud of all of us.

Dawn

WELL...

I did have a sort of plan worked up. Then I got a lovely box CHOCK FULL of seeds today, so I'm redoing my plan somewhat... LOL! Seriously Dawn, I said I had room for 25 tomato plants, and you send me 25 types of tomatoes! LOL!!! I'm still giggling!

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! :)

Beth

Beth,

You're welcome. Keep on giggling. Laughter is good for the soul.

Well, Jay would expect nothing less than that from me. Be glad it was me sending you 25 varieties of tomatoes, because Jay probably would have sent you 50!

I sent plenty so you'd have extra seed to cover unexpected disasters (we all experience them occasionally and that is true no matter how long you've gardened) or to trade for things you really want and don't have.

Dawn

I was wondering if anyone might know where I might find an old bean type called Bird Egg, it was red and white and made a very rich juice when my Grandmother would fix them this has been some 18 years now but all I can remember is that she called them Bird Eggs because she said that they looked like big old bird eggs. They almost looked like the Calaco bean but larger.

Googled and found several pages.

Marqi,

Lena Cisco's Bird Egg, the one that Carol found by Googling, was the first bean that popped into my head when you said Bird Egg. It is available from Seed Savers Exchange (linked below) and probably available through other places too.

If that doesn't look like the ones you remember, you might try posting a message at the "Bean, Pea and Legume" forum here at Garden Web. If there are other beans known as "Bird Egg", one of the folks there will know about it

Dawn

Dawn,
After you told me you'd send me seeds, Jay did offer to send some too. I knew tho that you'd more than likely send me a whole bunch... glad I didn't accept his offer too! Even tho I was tempted! :)

Once I got everything sorted out and listed I can see how it's good to have all these seeds. I'm formulating a plan on what to start first and all that now. AND, yes... there are a couple of other things that I'd like to have. I'm thinking a very small order to Baker's will take care of that tho. I told Bryan last night that I still had a few things I wanted to order, and his eyes bugged out... LOL!
Well, thanks again. I appreciate it so much!

Beth

Mine will look boring compared to you guys, but here it goes.

Beans: Topcrop. I have sworn off pole beans.
Squash: Goldbar straightneck, Senator Zucchini
Watermelon: Black Diamond
Muskmelon: Sugar Queen
Cucumber: Straight 8
Okra: Clemson Spineless 80
Peppers: Assorted Bell
Tomatoes: Park's Whopper (can't find one more hassle free with the quality of fruit), some undecided cherry tomato
Sweet Potato: Porto Rico Bunch
Potato: Undecided--help me out. 1 30' row. I want big potatoes and multi purpose.
Onions: 1015Y and Southern Belle Red

I think that's it. Seriously, any suggestions on the potato variety? I did Yukon Gold last year and Kennebec. My first time with potatoes and I wasn't impressed. Is Kennebec about my best option for what I am wanting?

Beth,

It takes a very understanding family to be a gardener. To my family members, a bean is a bean is a bean and they aren't really sure why I have to grow 15 or 20 kinds of beans. My husband does understand "now" why I have to have specific varieties of veggies and flowers, and why 1 kind of tomato is not enough, for example, but back in the beginning he probably didn't "get it" as well as he does now.

When someone tells me they don't understand why I have to have so many kinds of flowers, veggies or herbs, I tell them that I don't know why they need 100 different socket wrenchs or screwdrivers, or six different fishing poles or 800 kinds of fishing lures or 19 purses and 27 pairs of shoes.......it makes my point

Quailhunter,

No, your list isn't boring. Some folks like to grow a lot of different varieties and some keep it simpler and stick to the tried and true. There's nothing wrong with different approaches.

With the potatoes, you are pretty much limited to whatever is available locally, so scout your local stores and see what they have. Our stores usually have Red LaSoda, Kennebec, Yukon Gold and Red Norland. Sometimes I'll see All-Blue seed potatoes, and they are really tasty as well as unusual. (Your mashed potatoes will be bluish-purplish though.) Irish Cobbler is a good one that might be the one you're looking for, but you'd likely have to order them and pay shipping unless you have top-notch nursery suppliers there. Most stores here offer 2 or 3 types of seed potatoes, and often they are labeled as Red, White or Russet with no further clue as to which variety they are.

Ronniger's is one of the few companies that can ship seed potatoes early enough for folks like us who need to plant before the northeastern US thaws out. I've linked their website below.

The potatoes recommended for Oklahoma by OSU are:

RED: Norland, Red LaSoda, Red Pontiac
WHITE: Irish Cobbler, Kennebec, Superior
YELLOW: Yellow Finn
RUSSELT: Norgol Russet, Norkota

I grow a lot of the fingerling types but the drawback to fingerlings is that if you intend to peel your potatoes before you use them, they can be very labor intensive.

Dawn

Thanks Dawn. I've about decided to plant Kennebec. Last year was a bad potato year here with all of the moisture. About half of mine rotted. They all froze back once.

You're welcome. It was an awful potato year here too. They either froze back or flooded or froze and flooded 3 times. The potatoes that I did get were Kennebec and Yukon Gold and a few All-Blue, I think. Honestly, by the time I'd replanted 3 times I had no idea what to expect because each time I replanted I had to use whatever potatoes I could find later in the season.

I read thru all the posts, but didn't see anyone mention Tomatillos. Do they not grow well in Oklahoma, or does no one really use them in their salsa. I have a couple good salsa recipes so thought I might try them.

Also will grow the Black Cherry tomatoe in a container (that ok?) and a red that I don't know what it will be even after my thread about the heirlooms. Any recommendations - just a couple cuz I get confused easily. I want to wintersow my tomatoes.

I wish I could grow Okra and Zucchini cuz I love both. I would need too much room, though, I think. Oh, and I plan to do some sugar snaps that I will probably start next week or so.

Susan

Thanks to all of the peer pressure you folks are providing here, I've started on my grow list for this year. I won't be able to finalize it until later but it sure feels good to get a basic outline going!

Susan, I tried tomatillos a couple of years but managed to kill them all both times. I took the hint and haven't tried them since. LOL

Diane

Susan,

I don't usually grow tomatilloes because we don't use them often, but they are very easy to grow. You treat them about the same way you treat your tomato plants in terms of timing of the planting, etc. When I grew them they were huge, rampant growers and tried to take over the entire garden, so plant them far, far away from everything else.

Dawn

Don't know why, but our tomatillos hardly produced any fruit last year. We love them.

George

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as "far, far away' from anything in my garden, Dawn, LOL!

I have checked out Baker Creek and think I will order my tomatoe seeds from them since you all highly recommend them here.

Also thinking about trying the zucchini that is the round globe fruit instead of the long thinner fruits, just for the heck of it.

Will also order my sugar snaps from them.

susan

I'm curious, Dawn, with such a list, what is the size of your garden?

Robert

Robert,

Keep in mind that the list is for the garden I'll have this spring after we finish breaking/tilling/plowing the soil, enriching it a little, and fencing it to create 3 or 4 new growing areas....the list is not for the garden I have now, which wouldn't come close to holding everything I listed. I also garden in containers and expect to have about 100 containers this year, with a drip irrigation system hooked up to make them low maintenance. I also sneak veggies into shrub beds and flower beds, and my dogs plant their own gourds, pumpkins and sunflowers in their dog yard and they have a great harvest every year.

It hard to describe the dimensions of the current garden because it is not a big rectangle or square or whatever. It actually has 8 sides because it curves around a pond that sits on its northeastern edge, and then parallels the curving edge of the woodland, and bends and curves some more to fit in close to, but not under, some possomhaw hollies and a huge pecan tree. It I could make straight fencelines and not curve to fit around everything else, it likely would be about 100' long by about 80' wide. I know it took us 400' of fencing to raise the fence from 4' in height to 7'.

I grow a huge amount of veggies because my beds are from 3' to 5' wide and the pathways are very narrow--maybe about 16" wide in most cases. I interplant, so instead of having a row of tomato plants in a bed, I'll have a row of tomato plants with onions, carrots and lettuce planted around them as a living mulch, with other herbs, flowers and maybe a row of bush beans serving as an edging around the entire bed. My garden doesn't look like a farm garden with acres of brown dirt, rows of crop and huge pathways in between. It is a crazy quilt of plantings and very small pathways. If you can see a bare spot in my garden (other than in the pathways) where there's room for a plant, I'll pop a plant into it.

Keep in mind that everything is not growing in the garden at the same time. I start planting in February and plant almost non-stop through about September. I start succession crops in flats using paper cups (with the bottoms cut out) as pots. On the day I pull out a crop that is finished and throw the inedible plant parts on the compost pile, I plant the succession crop (cups and all) from the started transplants, so I have an instant changeover. Another way I grow more plants in less space is to trellis everything I possibly can. I use the fence for vining plants, and use tomato cages (I have almost 400 of them) for everything else. Some of the plants that I grow vertically include tomato plants and pepper plants ((of course) but also cucumbers, mini-pumpkins, pole beans, southern peas, Lima beans, winter squash (you can use panty hose or cheesecloth to make 'slings' that support the weight of the enlarging squash so they don't break off the vine), and even refrigerator-sized melons. Also, gourds. It is a very complicated process. Sometimes a pumpkin vine escapes from the garden and climbs a tree (Seminole is especially prone to this). Usually the pumpkins hold on the vine until they are ripe without a sling or support but I'll put up a support for them if I can reach them.

Dawn

Susanlynne, I am worried that if you start your Sugar Snaps in Jan that they will freeze out or rot out if you plant them outdoors and will get too tall if you plant them inside. I am in z6b in eastern Ok and always start my Super Sugar Snaps in mid Feb on a warm bench on a glassed porch. I leave them there only two weeks and put them into the garden around Mar 1. And even then sometimes they freeze out. Lost an entire row in early April of 07 when a snap cold spell went to 18 degrees or so.

One year had to hold my pea plants for 3 weeks inside and even though I took them off the warm bench and put them under lights they got too spindly and never did recover as well as I wanted although they got 6 ft tall. They were always weak there at the base. Just my experience. "Sugar Snaps will grow in cold soil, but won't germinate well in cold soil." According to one of the gardeners on The Victory Garden several years ago.

Hi Dorothy,

With all this wild winter weather that we're having, I'm thinking that most of us probably ought to expect planting season to be delayed a few weeks this year.

I just don't see the pattern we're having....recurring cold fronts with lots of precipitation.....abruptly stopping anytime soon. I bet we have one of those painfully long winters with a painfully cool spring and lots of late freezes.

I'm going to try to make myself start seeds later than usual, and I'm not going to like waiting one single bit. Still, waiting and planting a couple of weeks later to transplant stuff into the garden seems more sensible this year than planting early or even "on time".

Dawn

wait??? wait??? from what i have been reading for the past six months i dont see you totally waiting dawn.
maybe plant a few then wait and plant your main crop .
i think its the need to play in the dirt like when were kids!! hehheee

Dawn said: I bet we have one of those painfully long winters with a painfully cool spring and lots of late freezes."

Bite your tongue, woman! For shame...

Diane

Jeff, OK, so you already have me totally figured out.

Diane, Don't make me bite my tongue. That hurts!

It makes me laugh now, but the first few years we lived here, from about 1999-2005 or so, I was able to transplant tomato plants into the ground as early as the first week in March....and they lived! Since 2005, our weather has gotten all whacked out....I think Mother Nature must be going through reverse menopause and having cold flashes instead of hot flashes. Since 2005, I have had to wait until mid-April to plant and have lost plants (or had to build emergency low tunnels over them) to recurring 'late' cold spells, frosts, freezes, snow and even freezing weather as late as May 3rd. Keep in mind that I'm so far south that Texas lies to my west, south and east.

I don't know what's happened, but the 2005-2010 weather has been totally unacceptable (I want a refund. This is not the weather I purchased.), and I want our 1999-2004 weather to come back again and chase off this cold stuff!

So, I've had to learn patience. I "get around" the weather by driving to Dallas-Fort Worth when their stores' tomato plants arrive in mid-February. I buy about 4 to 6 plants in 6" pots that have main stalks about the diameter of my index finger. I plant them in pots and put them on the patio attached to the side of our garage. All day they soak up sunshine and heat from the concrete and then at night, I drag them into the garage to protect them from cold weather. Doing this seems to keep me relatively sane when I cannot go out to my garden and play in the soil otherwise known as the frozen tundra. If I can keep the deer and rabbits from finding the plants on the patio and eating them, I'll have my first ripe tomatoes from those plants in mid-April or, in a bad and cold year, late April.

See the lengths I'll go to for a few home-grown tomatoes?

Since planting season is running later and later, I have to put in really long days when it arrives...usually from just before sunrise to an hour or two after sunset. (Yes you can garden by the headlights of a strategically-placed vehicle!) Luckily for my family I am only insane during the main gardening season from about March through November. The rest of the time I can pass myself off as a fairly normal person. (Diane--don't you say one word about that last statement!)

Diane, I am just telling it like I see it. This is the worst winter weather, so far, that we've had since moving here in 1999, and the new month is only one week old.

The recurring cold fronts make me think El Nino is on a rampage and out to prove wrong all those NWS Storm Prediction Center forecasters who said it would be a mild to moderate El Nino.

I cannot imagine we'll be able to plant "on time", and believe me, that thought makes me crazy.

Last year I planted on time as much as I could, given that we were running to grassfires and wildfires daily. I more or less got everything in the ground on time, and then much of it froze (potatoes froze 3 times) or drowned (potatoes at least once, and onions/tomatoes/corn were drowning the entire month of May).

Some of us don't have greenhouses to escape to, so we don't have an alternative Happy Place if the weather is bad(LOL.) Therefore we cannot start our seedlings too early or they'll outgrow the light shelves. I'm thinking I may start seeds in mid-Feb or even late-Feb instead of on Super Bowl Sunday.

Do I want to start off the 2010 gardening year slowly, behind schedule and feeling stressed out over planting late? No, silly. But, if the alternative is to have it all freeze out, then I'll rein myself in. I just don't like the weather patterns I'm observing.

Maybe it won't be as bad at your eastern edge of the state, Owie, but we've been colder/wetter than normal here since early December and I don't see a change coming. I expect, instead, more of the same.

Dawn

All right, Dawn, now come clean. I remember last year when you planted your tomatoes early and had to put your wall-o-waters in the garden to protect the plants! You just couldn't stand to wait any longer. I may have to look for those threads LOL!

MulberryKnob - taking your advice and will wait til mid-February to start peas. Thanks for the heads up!

Susan

Susan,

I don't use Wall-O-Waters because my garden slopes. I tried, but because of the slope they topple over and crush the plants and all the water drains out.

Some years I do wrap the cages with 6 mm plastic to help hold in the heat and to help prevent the wind from beating the plants to death. I know I wrapped some of the earlier tomatoes like that last year, and I remember I had to throw sheets and blankets over the tops of the cages on a few nights.

I got a couple dozen tomato plants in the ground early and had to protect them on cold nights that lasted until May. Then I couldn't plant for ages because of the waterlogged ground. When I finally could finish getting plants in the ground, we already were well into May. I believe we had a light freeze here on May 3rd last year. If it wasn't last year, it was the year before.

I'm at the point when I no longer have a great amount of confidence in planting dates that worked for me in the past.

Dawn

It's hard to trust the planting dates with the weather we've had the last few years, isn't it?

I just want to get to Home Depot or Lowe's to get my potting soil! WAH!!!!!

Susan

Susan,

What kind are you looking for? Just a regular potting soil? A soilless, sterile seed-starting mix?

Our Home Depot in Gainesville had just put out their first shipment of nursery stock....bare root trees, fruit trees, berries, etc. and some bare root roses too on the day before the cold spell arrived here, but I didn't even look to see if they'd restocked the aisle of bagged planting mixes and amendments. I did see the small bags of Jiffy seed starting mix inside on the Ferry-Morse seed rack.

Our Wal-Mart doesn't have their bagged soils in either, but they had just received their first flats of cool-season crops like broccoli, cauliflower, etc. and onion plants. They were smart....they put them all inside the building to protect them from the cold, but set them on shelves just inside the outdoor garden center entrance, presumably so they'll get occasional blasts of cool air when that door opens. You don't want your cool-season crops to be inside and "too warm" or very long.

I wish the stores would do things on our timetable instead of theirs!

Dawn

Well......I changed my mind yesterday while at Home Depot. I was going to order everything from Willhites, but I bought Burpee Hybrid II cucumbers and Ambrosia muskmelon. The Ambrosia were proven for me last year. Made a ton of them. Also, I didn't have to sling them on the trellis. We're not big zucchini eaters, but I'll probably pick up one packet of some type of zucchini later.

I also ordered from Willhites:
Topcrop beans
Goldbar squash
Clemson 80 okra
Black Diamond watermelon

I think that's it. I don't start my own tomatoes and peppers. I have a good nursery close that has nice plants every year for really good prices.

By the way, that nursery is Creekside in Oologah for all of you northeastern OK folks.

I also ordered my onions. It's dangerous for me to spend bad weather days on the internet. I buy stuff.

Dawn, for winter sowing, we use regular potting mix. I usually get Scott's and it usually takes a couple of 40 or 50 lb bags for me. Winter sowing is like growing outside in situ, but more protected cuz it is in an environment where the seeds can't get eaten or damaged. No need to use expensive seed starting mix. HD and Lowe's always keep bags in stock or I can get at Horn's, too, they're just more expensive than the box stores.

Susan

This is somewhat departing from the norm here but I need help.
I have been sprouting peppers and Egg plant and Concord grapes. I started back in nov and dec. I want my peppers to
get an early start. Today I purchased a Concord grape vine,
and it already has two stems with leaves. Im wondering if I
should leave it in the sack or should I plant it in a bucket
with potting soil. I know I should not have bought it so early. I cant plant it till april 15.

Hi Wayne,

You can plant your grapes right now. The right time for planting grapes in Oklahoma is February and March, so feel free to go ahead and plant them now.

I've linked the OSU Factsheet on Grapes below. Just click on the link to see it. The OSU Factsheets are full of great info and I find them quite useful.

It isn't really a problem that you asked a question about grapes in a veggie thread. However it does mean that future searches for grapes likely won't pull up this grape question/responses for other folks searching for info on planting grapes. So, next time, if you want to ask a question and a search does not pull up a thread on that topic, just click on "Post A Message" at the top of the main page and type in your message, proofread it and submit it. In the subject line for this question, for example, you could have used something like "When to Plant Grapes?". That will ensure future searches for grape info pull up all the available date about grapes on this forum.

Good luck with your grapes (and everything else).

Dawn

Thank you very much Dawn. I had spent about 2 hours reading
and did not get so much information so fast. That link was
extremely good and answered many questions, that all my
searching did not give me. The strange thing I noticed when I
was raising the grapes from seed. The leaves could not get
free from the seed and I had to break them free. I did read
sand paper inside a can and shake till the seed is weakened.
Thanking you again. I think I will try the sandpaper for
persimmins as they have the same trouble.

James,

You're welcome. Just let me know what you need after Jay looks at his seeds.

Wayne,

You are welcome. If you have a question about anything related to gardening, just ask it here. If no one here has the exact answer, we generally know just where to find the answer.

For the persimmon seeds, I assume you meant from some of the native persimmons that grow here in Oklahoma, so I consulted my Jill Nokes' book "How To Grow Native Plants of Texas and the Southwest" and she recommends cleaning the pulp off the seed which she says is easily done by scraping the seeds against/over a metal screen to loosen the pulp and then washing off the pulp. Repeat as much as needed until the seeds are clean.

To plant persimmon seeds, you need to cold-stratify them in moist spaghum peat moss kept at 36 to 41 degrees for 30-60 days. (This mimics the seed being exposed to normal winter weather.) After that, you can plant the seed in loose, sandy loam soil.

Raising persimmons from seed is a slow process. They are slow to germinate and slow to grow the first few years. Persimmon seedlings grow best at 80 degrees, so if I was trying to grow persimmon from seed, I'd keep that in mind.

If you are growing native persimmons, are you aware that they have their male and female flowers on separate trees? So, to get fruit, you'll need at least one of each unless there are other native persimmon trees in your neighborhood.

If you're trying to save seed from a commercial form of persimmon purchased from the grocery store, I don't know how much of Jill Noke's info might apply to cultivated commercial varieties.

Dawn

Dawn you are so right about persimmons being slow. Last
winter I sprouted about 5 seeds in several months in plastic
glasses placed in a south window. I had to break them from
the seed pods. I lost 4 and did plant the 5th when about 1 inch tall. Thru the whole summer it is still 1 inch tall.
This is a native tree about 5 miles from here. There is
a tree about 100 yds from here but it is so giant I dont try
to get seeds from it.

Wayne,

We have several of the natives on our property and every now and then I try to transplant a small one (8-10" tall seedings) but with little success. They live a year or two or even three and then die. Based on that, I'd say they are hard to transplant.

I do love their fall color....they just glow in magnificent shades of a golden-peachy color fairly early in fall.

Here, the coyotes get most of the persimmons long before they are ripe, but every now and then we get a few that were too high for the coyotes to reach. Most of our persimmons are on the bank of our pond and vary from about 8' to 20' in height. We have one on the eastern edge of our woodland that is about 45 to 50' tall. It still produces a few fruit, but not many. I think it is so tall and in such a densely wooded area that not many pollinators visit it.

Dawn

I am amazed, you guys are on the ball. I am behind I gather..I just designed my the square foot garden beds, and figured out what to put in each square. Now I have to look at varieties. I was thinking I had more time! I called the OSU extension and they said april 15th was the last frost date and not to plant before then. I got a calendar from them, but what I really need to do is get it where it is posted somewhere in my house. LOL. Here is my list so far:

eggplant
brussel sprouts
onions
leaf lettuce
okra
squash - I want some crooked neck
swiss chard
bell peppers
carrots
spinach
radishes
beans - I am thinking a bush variety, but I want beans all summer, so I don't know
zukes
tomatoes (of course)
various herbs: basil, chives, sage, oregano, etc.
peas in pots
potatoes in boxes (yes, boxes as in cardboard, this is just an experiment however)
green onions in a pot
raspberries in a container, if I can find one big enough and cheap enough

I still have a 2'x2' spot for something I don't know. I would grow strawberries, but they have always not worked for me for some reason....

microgreens hydroponicly...

I think I have bitten off more than I can chew for a noobie..

You are not behind at all. With the type of weather we're having this winter, it is likely wise to plant a little on the late side, especially with cool season crops.

To clarify, the April 15th planting date OSU gave you is for warm-season crops that cannot tolerate freezing weather.

Cool-season crops can go into the ground more or less beginning this week, but only if you're in southern or southeastern OK and only if the weather is cooperating (and it is not cooperating this year).

If you watch here, most people here will post and say something like "I planted my onions today". So, you'll see folks in southern OK sort of 'setting the pace' when they start planting and then folks in central OK will plant about the same time or a tiny bit later and gardeners further north will plant even later.

This is the kind of year that later is better.

You could be starting seeds inside right now if you have a shelf or table and a light.

I'm starting seeds today and tomorrow indoors. and will post a list of what I've started although I may not get the list up until Mon. or Tues. at the earliest.

Most newbies bite off more than they can chew. It is normal. The upside is that you learn a lot from it.

I always say that gardening here starts with the soil because you aren't going to get great plants from poor soil. However, it really starts with the weather because you're only going to be as successful as the weather allows. This colder/wetter than average winter weather that we have this year is not going to tolerate us pushing the limits to plant anything too early.

For a large planter for berries, buy a Rubbermaid Roughneck tote. (Don't buy cheaper or less sturdy ones because they'll degrade to quickly in the sunlight/heat.) Drill holes in the bottom for drainage....lots of holes. Fill it with a great soilless potting mix (NOT dirt from the ground) and water often enough to keep it moist but not soggy.

Dawn

I always bite off more than I can chew. I'm pretty sure that's just a normal gardening tradition that we are bound to carry on. :-p

Diane

Me too. Biting off more than you can chew is a time-honored tradition here.

That's what got me into trouble with the harvest last year--all the warm season crops survived and produced well (thanks to all that rain) and I had to deal with a huge harvest.

Since we are more prone to excess drought than excess rainfall, I'm not complaining because I get that kind of harvest only once every 3 or 4 years.

I think of biting off more than you can chew as 'crop insurance' because if one thing or another isn't doing well, the others can make up for it.

My 2010 growlist!!!!!!

Im super excited.

beets-
early wonder

beans-
kentucky blue pole
soybeans
black beans

baby bok choy

broccoli-
munchkin
green comet

cabbage-
dynamo

canteloupe-
honey bun bush type

carrot-
thumbelina
napoli

celairic-
diamant

cucumber-
french corichon
saladin
calypso
garlic -
spanish roja

purple kohlrabi

lacianato kale

lettuce-
paris island cos.
little gem
nevada
little loma
oakleaf

leeks-
king richard

okra-
clemson spineless

onions-
red candy apple

peas- sugar snap

Pepper-
corona
red skin
jalapeno m
sweet banana

potato-
red pontiac

pumpkin-
cheyene bush

Radish-
white icicle

spinach-
bloomsdale type

tomato-
cherokee purple
yellow pear
purple russian
bloody butcher
grape- sugar plum type

watermelon-
blacktail mountain

saffron

tromboncino

and then of course 20 kinds of herbs nothing too exciting though

okiedawn and owiebrain - Thanks for that I feel better about all that I chose, others are telling me I am going crazy! (your going to burn yourself out, you have lost your marbles in this - is what I am hearing exactly)

Okiedawn - can you suggest a soilless brand of potting mix for the raspberries, being new I am not sure what exactly that is?

Thanks again everyone!

Ezzirah,

I don't grow raspberries because they don't like the heat here, but I would think that any high-quality potting mix would do. You want something that is light and fluffy and which drains well. Avoid the ones that are labeled as 'moisture-control' because they can hold too much moisture and kill plants. I grow blackberries which are very heat tolerant in the ground in clay soil that's been well amended with a lot of composted cow manure and they do great in that. However, if you're growing raspberries in containers, you can't use native soil because it packs down and strangles the roots. Containers need a well-drained soil-less mix. I usually mix up my own container mix from a few basic ingredients and I can 'make' it drain more quickly or more slowly depending on what I use and on which proportions I use. A soilless mix is generally composed of some combination of peat moss or compost, vermiculite or perlite or expanded shale and pine bark fines and often has other ingredients added to provide nutrition or enhanced ability to drain well.

The next time you're in a store that sells bagged potting soil and garden soil, look at the bags. Usually the name-brand ones that are labeled container soil or potting soil will be a soil-less mix. The ones labeled Garden Soil or Vegetable Soil likely contain some topsoil or dirt and should be used only in raised beds or added to your native soil. The poor quality mixes often contain a lot of black clay and should be avoided at all costs. For seed-starting, it is best to use a sterile seed-starting mix which is very light and fluffy and has only tiny particles so there's no particles large enough to keep seeds from sprouting. When handling ALL potting soils or seed-starting mixes or soil-less mixes, ALWAYS wear gloves. People who handle these mixes with their bare hands can contract some very serious illnesses from them, including a fungal infection that can get into your body and become systemic and chronic.

It is your garden. Plant what you want and plant as much of it as your want and just enjoy the whole process. If you burn out, that's OK, because everything you do still will be a great learning experience and will leave you better prepared for the next garden. If you have lost your marbles, you'll eventually find them again....and most likely you'll find them in the garden under a large and vigorously growing squash plant.

Here's my feeling about 'planting too much' 'going overboard' and 'losing your marbles': if those three things are the worst thing you ever do, you'll likely survive and have a wonderful life. Look at the other obsessions some people have.....spending tons of money to attend athletic events or take trips to exotic locales or go on guided hunting or fishing trips or maintaining their own deer lease or bass boat....or buying a new pair of shoes every couple of weeks so you have shoes that match every outfit or whatever.....

If you enjoy gardening, then throw yourself into it wholeheartedly and love every minute of it. For me (and y'all probably can tell this already), gardening is not my hobby--it is my lifestyle. It is great exercise, it beautifies your property, it gives you FRESH garden produce, fruit, herbs and cut flowers and it feeds your soul. I can't see a downside to gardening.

I find that I hit the 'burn out' stage several times during the gardening year and when that happens, I force myself to 'take a day off' and not step foot in the garden for a day or two. It is surprising how quickly I miss playing in the dirt when I take that day off.

Dawn