I was waiting to see your response on Charlie's question, too, Dawn. I have wondered about the issue of some determinates that I've read do produce in flushes or waves, like you described, and wondered if "determinate" is really a valid application of the word to these types of tomatos. Could these tomatos better fit into the category of semi-indeterminates?

Susan

I have only grown it one year. One in ground plant and one in a container if memory serves me correctly. Very poor production here. To be fair we have had a 3 year drought here. I grew it 2 years ago if memory serves me correctly. It was watered like those that did well. I should probably give it another try. But varieties like Heinz 1439 that I grew the same year seemed to handle my harsh conditions so much better along with a few others so I have no immediate plans to grow NBD again. Personally I also liked the flavors of 1439 and the others better. It just seemed to really struggle in our wind and heat. It might do better if it had better wind protection. The container plant had mid to late afternoon sun but only moderate wind protection. Just remember most of you probably don't experience the harsh conditions my garden does in drought type years. So your results will probably more mirror those of Dawn's. Jay

Thank you all very much!

Jay

Is the Heinz 1439 a dwarf? If so did it produce a lot?

Charlie

Susan,

The entire subject of deteminates and indeterminates makes my eyes glaze over because I think the definitions are becoming more and more muddled all the time.

In the simplest definition, a determinate is a plant which flowers at the end of the branch, and no branch growth occurs beyond that flower, thus the branches terminate. New branches must, therefore, come out of the main stem of the plant, making it a bush-type plant. Most determinates produce a fairly brief harvest---for maybe 3 to 4 weeks, and most produce early, with DTMs in the 55-70 range. (There are some exceptions though.)

With indeterminate plants, the flowers occur along the branches and the branches keep growing onward and upward, so you get a vining-type plant that can grow very tall if trellised or caged, or can grow pretty long on the ground if unsupported. Most of these produce endlessly until frost or disease gets them, and very few of they are very early producers. They tend to be mid- and late-season producers with DTMs that start at 60-70 days and go up to 100. (Early Girl, though, is an example of a very early Indeterminate, producing at about 52-54 days.)

It all sounds so simple, doesn't it? And it would be, if every plant were either indeterminate or determinate, t was the end of itl However, we have some plants that don't fit neatly in either category and sometimes we see a variety described as determinate by one seed source and indeterminate at another. Most semi-determinates have DTMs of 60-70 days and they'll produce for maybe 6-8 weeks instead of 3-4.

You can encounter determinate types that have strongly vigorous growth and which keep putting out more branches and fruit and producing for much longer than the 'traditional' determinate. You may see them described as semi-determinates or vigorous determinates or strong determinates. Examples of a strong determinate or semi-determinate would be Celebrity, Bradley or Marmande. However, how do those three differ from Salsa VFT which is described as a semi-indeterminate? I've also seen Celebrity described as a "Vigorous Determinate".

The whole situation gets more complicated because different retailers sometimes describe the same variety in different ways. It is enough to drive one mad.

Then, there are some retailers who try to help out the gardener by further describing determinates as "compact determinates" or "vigorous determinates" or "strong indeterminates" or some indeterminates as "semi-indeterminate". It might be helpful to a gardener to know that "Bush Early Girl" is a "Compact Determinate or that Better Bush is a "Compact Indeterminate". However, in my garden, when grown side by side, it is clear that Bush Early Girl is much more compact than Better Bush, but I don't think I ever would call Better Bush a Compact Indeterminate. To me, it seems like Better Bush is merely a vigorous determinate, and I'm saying that somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but you can see why it gets so confusing.

Sometimes there are multiple versions of a variety and one of them is a determinate form (i.e. Rutgers VFA) and another one of them is almost identical, but in an indeterminate form (i.e. Rutgers Select).

And, plant breeders can make us crazy by giving us bush forms of popular indeterminates, like "Bush Big Boy" which, presumably was developed for folks who like the indeterminate "Big Boy" but don't have a lot of space.

I haven't even mentioned the Indeterminate Short Internode types (like the Husky series) which were commonly referrred to by their full name right after they were introduced, or as ISIs, but which nowadays more often seem to be referred to as Dwarf Indeterminates.

And, how are we going to refer to the new tumbling or cascading types that are being developed for hanging baskets? Usually they are referred to as determinates, but when I see them described only as a 'determinate' I worry that some folks will plant them in the ground expecting an upright plant (some of the cascading types will be much more strongly vertical if staked). Most retailers will describe them as 'tumbling' or 'cascading' or maybe as 'basket tomatoes'.

It is so confusing at times, even for seasoned gardeners, and just imagine how confusing it would be to brand new vegetable gardeners.

There are lots of other misconceptions in the gardening world too, like the idea that all paste or sauce tomatoes are long and plum shaped and they aren't as some of them are round, or the idea that none of the paste or plum types are good for fresh eating because some of them are fine for fresh eating. The tomato world can be oh-so-complicated, can't it?

Charlie, Jay very kindly sent me seeds of Heinz 1439 so I could try it last year, and in my garden it was a vigorous determinate that produced for a long time and produced very large yields. We reallly liked it a lot here in our garden.

Dawn

Charlie,
I grew it in 09. I plan to grow it again along with another Heinz variety next year. In 09 some plants didn't get as tall as normal due to the extreme stress caused by the drought. 1439 in 09 was just less than 4 ft. NBD was over 3 the year I grew it. I would say close to a foot difference between them. But I grew them in different years so that could make a difference. 1439 produced very well for me and has a good taste. It along with 3 others are my favorite all around types. Like Dawn said it is a determinate. But produces over a longer time period than some determinates. When I get my seeds out and start sending them would be happy to send you a few. It is one I feel you could grow in a bigger container. Jay

Oh, for gosh sake's! Now, I really am confused. You might as well have thrown the tree-types in there, Dawn, LOL! I guess I actually grew Rutgers Select, because it behaved like an indeterminate, rather than Rutgers VFN which is a determinate. Maybe it could be called a vigorous determinate, I don't know.

I really gotta get my list organized as to "type" and growth pattern, so I know what size of container to allot to each. I definitely know I'll grow the indeterminates, short internodes or not, bush type or not, in the largest containers. Then, the semi-indet's and the semi-dets will probably get some of the next larger sizes, followed by the dets and dwarfs. I don't think I have any tree types, but once my list is organized, I'll know better.

Knowing me, otherwise I'd probably end up with the indeterminates in gallon pots and the dwarfs in 25 gallon containers. My oh my!

Susan

Jay,

Thanks a lot I'd appreciate that and will look forward to it. When ready for my email address just let me know.

Charlie

Bump

Nanelle posted the link to this thread which is over 6 years old.

What is NBD ? Det or Indet , Tree-like , (= dwaf ) ?

1 )Let us sort out the det and indet issue.

Okiedawn has provided a concise description. Briefly stated an INDET will grow vine-like indefinitely and thus under favorable growing climate/condition every given branch (main or laterals) will keep growing flower trusses.

But in the case of DET growth habit , every given branch ( be it main or lateral) has a limited growth, at which point the growing tip will disappear with the last truss.

What are dwarfs ? DET or inDET ? The short answer is : eithe one of them. In other words there are dwarfs that have DET growth habit and those that are inDET.

But basically even dwarfs of inDET growth habit do not grow like crazy. But nevertheless they grow vine like with much shorter inter node spacing and stocky branches. Another definition/description for dwarf is "Tree - Like" with "Rugose" leaves . That means that the main and lateral branches grow in concert.

WHAT IS NBD ? INDET OR DET ?

Seems that there is no unanimity about this. Some sources call it DETERMINANT and some say the it is INDETERMINANT ( Tania's Data Base) .

Sey

Sey,

Well, to me, NBD seems like a classic Determinate, although I don't grow it much any more. I've moved on and found other varieties we like a lot more. I've grown about a dozen of the dwarfs from the Dwarf Project, and haven't been overly impressed with them. In my hot and often humid climate, they are really prone to disease and their performance is inconsistent. Of course, we get incredibly hot here most summers, which can shut down production as early as May some years, though more commonly we get fruit set at least through almost the end of June. Generally I don't grow a lot of determinates, but I do have quite a few on my grow list this year.

Dawn