I would say mostly that its different for each type genetically. However Most all plants love water and food when they need it. The drawback to Al's gritty mix is there is NO food in the mix, you have to provide it. How often and what kind of fertilizer are you using.

mike

I agree with Mike.. Just like people, the over eaters will be nice and plump or full figured. Celadine is usually a nice thickness, funny that yours is skinny? Sometimes also if a plant grows to fast with over feeding with SNG or other products the branches will be skinny and there will be lots of soft droopy green growth.

Your plant may just need more water and some timed release fertilizer added to the pot to help it maintain its nutrients, plus what ever feeding you might give it like SNG, Kelp, etc. etc.

Cheers and happy growing

I agree that some are programmed to have thinner branches, but Celadine is not one of them.

In addition to the above, my answer is give them PLENTY of root space during the growing season. I have done experiments and have found that those grown in smaller pots with restricted root room will tend to grow tall and thin. Those grown in a large pot early on will branch easier and be a lot stockier with more girth.

It works for me :)
Tony

Agree with all previous posts. Fertilizer and pot size are the most likely culprits. I would consider looking for the widest/fattest container that you can find. I prefer low squat pots versus tall pots.

How old are the Celadines?

Evening everyone! Thank you kindly for all your replies & advice. My answer is a bit in depth so please bear with me...

Yes, that's the one thing about Al's gritty mix that I'm finding to be a challenge - keeping the Plumies fed enough but not so much that I'm overdoing it. I had to alter my GMX a tad to ensure it would hold some water because we have watering restrictions in my area. Been collecting rainwater but I have to ration that as well because I also grow Brugs which are pigs.

I'm using Dyna-Gro's Liquid Gro 7-9-5 along with ProTekt on the Plumies once a week in a gal of rainwater. I also give them ST mixed with seaweed every other week.

These Celadines where given to me as rooted cuttings back in Oct last year by a person who's had the mother tree for over 30 yrs. IDK too much about how this individual cared for them other than she grew them in MG potting mix in a huge ceramic pot clumped together with several other cuttings. Never fed them anything other than what they were getting from the MG soil (which I hate & will not use). A few of hers had the fat stems but these ones she gave me look like Custer's last stand. Can't discern how old they are but I do know they're about 3 ft. each. I have them in a 1.5 gal pot since it was all I had at the time when I repotted them back in April. I'm thinking they really need to be put in a bigger pot (how big would be ideal?) but is that safe to do now when it's so hot (90's)? Also, does anyone think I might have better success putting them in a different soilless mix?

Hi Angharand!!

I know when you repotted and rootpruned in the spring they were in a heavy mix and i remember you were concerned..

It sounds like they are starting to become healthy since they have produced a new flush of healthy leaves. The stems were thin when you received them and i know you want them to fatten up, but it will take time for them to become healthy and it sounds like they are. You have done a great job in turning them around. Just think of how they were before. They need time to fatten up and enjoy the new home and mix you have provided. It sounds like they are heading in the right direction now. Remember when you repotted and they were in need of water? You gave them time to acclimate to the sun and temps.. Now they are starting to show their thanks.. I think they will continue to gain strenght and will eventually gain thickness in the trunks. Remember, they were struggling before. Now they are growing leaves and giving you some positive signs.

It is up to you if you think they need a better mix. Also if you think they need a bigger container. I think they would do fine if you pot up in a larger container and not disturb the roots, but they went through alot this spring. I personally think they need time to adjust and grow. I give mine Foliage Pro every week when i water.. sometimes i will fertilize every two weeks. I always make sure the mix is moist before i give the tree fertilizer to prevent burn.

The choice is up to you. I know you want to see them grow,, but remember they can grow on their time, not ours... They will thicken up in time .. Mature trees will.. These were weak trees before.. I think they just need time.

Just my opinion. Sometimes we want to keep doing things to the trees and they really need time to get adjusted to what we have already done.

I hope you understand what i am trying to say... I can hear Bill. (He taught me well...) his advise to us all would be to leave them alone and let them be. LOL.. I agree with him.

My 2 cents.. Let them gain strength as they are.. pot up if you really want to. I woud have to see the trees to make that decision, but i would say to leave them. let the roots grow and then you will see more progress. We want to see our trees grow fast, but we cant make them grow faster when they dont want to. We can help and water and fertilize, but they will do as much as they can.

I think you have done a great job with these babies..

I hope this helps...

They are your trees, so you are the one to decide.

I hope you have a wonderful holiday and a safe one as well!!!

I have a celadine cutting if you want to start another.. let me know.

xoxo

Take care,

Laura

Hello Laura!

Always a pleasure hearing from you! Much gratitude for your advice. Yes, my Celadines went through the ringer & back last year. Thank you for remembering everything I shared with you concerning their struggle (& mine lol). I've always believed in letting plants grow as naturally as possible but have been concerned about these Plumies because they're getting taller but not fatter, unlike most peoples' I've seen on here, so I knew something was up & thought it couldn't hurt to ask for some expert opinions/advice. As usual, everyone on here has been extremely helpful. If it wasn't for everyone who has taken the time & effort to respond to my inquiries, my plants would be dead. A huge bouquet of gratitude to all.

So at this point I should leave my trees as they are but keep feeding/watering them. Basically let nature take its course & see what happens. As Bill would say, "Leave them alone & stop fussing over them!" lol.

Here's what the "kids" look like as of this morning: {{gwi:1186054}}{{gwi:1186055}}

What do you think? I've always been confused about which formula to feed them & how often. Heard Dyna-Gro's Liquid Gro 7-9-5 was good for anything that flowers but it seems like most folks on here are using Foliage Pro. Should I switch?

Hope you & yours have a wonderful holiday too!

Aw. TY kindly for the Celadine cutting offer! Before I accept anything from anyone, I want to make 120% certain I know what I'm doing with these trees. It would pain me to get a beautiful cutting from someone only to know I killed it because I wasn't completely sure of what I was doing. I'm still trying to get my bearings as to how best to care for Plumeria so when I have that down pat then I'll be in a better position to have more cuttings :). TY again!

xoxoxo ~ Angharand

Those look pretty good to me. my only comment would be that they need their own pots.

Mike

Well... Angharand!!!

Look at those beauties!!! They look wonderful!!! ;-)

I am so pleased to see them look so healthy!! The pics from before tell so much. Very impressed!!

Sometimes we cant see the progress when we look at them all of the time, but i can honestly say.. they look wonderful!!

I do agree with Mike, they do need their own container. I didn't know their were two in one container.. Thats is fine too! This is how some call "gang rooting" so it isnt a problem at all.. This will really help them grow and mature. You can and have the knowledge to carefully pull the mass of soil and then seperate the two trees. It is up to you if you want to do it now.. or wait until next spring. How do you feel about doing it now?

If you do decide to seperate "the twins" lol... i would carefully pull the mass out and use a small saw to carefully seperate the roots. Cut straight between the two trees. OR... You can take the trees in the Gritty ( which will be easy to remove) put them in a container of water to gently get most of the mix away from the roots... Then gently try and seperate. You will still have to cut them since they will be all growing as one. Have the containers ready to pot up. This time i would have a larger container ready for both then the one gallon. Maybe the 3 gallon size. Remember, this will be another shock on them. They will need time to acclimate again and need time to rest.

Maybe others with more knowledge will chime in and give their opinion about what they think....

GREAT JOB!!!!

YOU have a wonderful forth, my friend!!!

ALways a pleasure to see you and your positive attitude!!!

Have a wonderful day!!!

xoxox

Laura

This post was edited by loveplants2 on Thu, Jul 4, 13 at 12:13

Hello again Mike & Laura!

Thank you so much for the kind compliments on my "twins." That really encourages me. All this time I doubted myself because I wasn't seeing results like I'm used to with other Plumies I've had in the past. I'm shocked these ones have grown considering the horrific conditions they were in from Oct - April. I freaked out about mine because I've been looking at the gorgeous pictures of Plumies on here & then see mine & want to cry at how pathetic they look compared to everyone else's. I know the best thing for mine right now is to concentrate on helping them create the strongest root mass possible. Thanks again Laura for your always insightful tips on potting too!

O.K. General consensus is they definitely need to be potted up & separated. In ans to your question, I'm nervous about doing it now with the weather so hot. I fear doing another pot up 3 mos after the first one might stress them out too much; also I worry whether they'll have enough time to acclimate considering my region only has 1 more month of summer left. Anyone else care to add their 2â here?

All the best to you & yours!
Happy 4th to all!

~ Angharand

What Bill says in this case is remove the soil, dip into a bucket of water and slosh up and down to remove most of the soil. Carefully part the two plants cutting only roots that will not pull apart. Grab roots near the tangle and pull apart. Do not pull the plants apart as this breaks the roots closer to the plant. Replant each in it own 5 gallon pot. Soak with water and superthrive or B1 (and seaweed extract) and watch them grow. You need to separate before the roots become too tangled and you have to cut more. These plants are healthy and should recover from the shock with the chemical help. Good luck. Bill

What Bill says.. ;-)

I would listen to Bill..

He has been my mentor on growing and i have so much respect for him as well as others, but he is the one that i would trust..

Thank you Bill for helping Angharand!!

You are awesome!!!

Thank you!!!

Laura

The master has spoken LOL! Hi Bill! Thank you for your reply. I've heard nothing but high praise for you & your no-nonsense approach in caring for Plumies. I've been trying to grow Plumeria for over 5 yrs now & they all died because I didn't know what I was doing with them - so it really gives me a much needed boost to hear anyone say these ones look healthy. They weren't grown in the best conditions before they were given to me so it's been an uphill battle trying to correct deficiencies, etc. I'm slowly but surely getting more confident in doing the right thing thanks to everyone here who's been so kind to patiently offer their advice.

I have them growing in gritty mix right now. They seem to enjoy it. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it when I put them in their 5 gal pots because there's the weight issue & I have to move them indoors once autumn comes.

Anyone have any other ideas what I could use for a fast draining soilless mix? I know there's tons of recipes but which would be the most ideal for Plumeria that have to be overwintered indoors & go dormant?

Thx again everyone!

Kindest Regards,
Angharand

Additive growth (as opposed to multiplicative growth), which determines how fat your trunks and branches grow, is directly related how much foliage mass/leaf surface the plant supports. The cambium between the bark and the wood is a veritable cell factory, adding files of cells on both sides of the cambium, fueled by the photosynthate (food), which the plant manufactures in the leaves. Fertilizer is not plant food - only the building blocks plants use to build cells and keep their systems orderly. So, the more leaves a plant has to make its food, the faster will its trunk and branches thicken.

Naturally, you need to take into consideration everything that affects leaf volume and leaf size. Tight roots cause smaller leaves, and the condition causes loss of older leaves. Low fertility also causes older leaves to be shed, because the plant cannibalizes (robs nutrients and other bio-compounds from) older foliage to support new growth, then sheds the older leaves. Poor cultural conditions, particularly a poor soil, make it difficult for the plant to absorb water AND the nutrients dissolved in water, resulting in shed foliage and reduced foliage mass. Low light levels cause larger and fewer leaves, plus the amount of solar energy striking the leaves means less food production and a slowdown of the cell factory that is the cambium, resulting in a reduced rate of thickening in stems/branches. Excessive heat or chill can also severely stress the plant by forcing it to operate at near the limits of what the plant is genetically programmed to deal with, which affects how efficiently the plant is able to make and utilize food.

In the end, a soil that allows you to apply lots of water and nutrients regularly, and containers that offer enough room for roots to run are going to offer the fastest increase in girth because those conditions allow the plant to support maximum volumes of foliage. Those of you using Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 can easily increase the dosage recommended on the container for your plants w/o concern for burned foliage (so long as you don't fertilize dry plants). When plants are growing well and soil temps are above 60*, you can use 2 tsp per gallon of water weekly (I use even more on some plants) if you're using a soil that allows you to flush the soil when you water.

Al

Hiya Al! You've also given me excellent advice in times past so I'm always happy to see a reply from you. I love learning the scientific aspect behind gardening. Thanks so much for your input. I'm seriously impressed with how well the gritty mix has been working for my Plumies! Going to run into a dilemma as explained above being able to move 5 gal pots with gravel in them so it pains me to have to consider using anything else but GMX with these Plumeria. Would like to try them in the 5-1-1 mix since I potted my Brugmansia in it back in April & they've been growing phenomenally. I'm going to re-read all the clippings of yours I've saved & make note of key points re: soilless mixes before doing anything. Thx again, Al!

Best to you ~
Angharand