Everytime theres a patent out for a new item, from dvds to a gelatin-based herbicide seed coating, it doesn't surprise me that the big wigs at Proven Winners and the like get together with lawyers and ag department under their payroll, and start out to bring justice and perfect ethical generating businesses alike. When you apply for the patent, and receive it with the money and hardwork to receive that. I have no problems with that. But I have problems with big business bureaucracy that is filled with red tape. I have patented a couple of cultivars and am in the process of others for next year after the trials, and I would hassle growers who are illegally propagating my product, but I would not spray Roundup on the plants. Thats pure Gestapo methods....Way too aggressive, but then again, crappy companies like Proven Winners have a crypt full of lawyers to create a neo-ethical plan of bureaucracy that benefits them only. By them only, I mean excluding small nurseries like myself from being included in the patent piracy conflicts that have plagued many different genre of business.

it would be fun to go to court dressed as a pirate tho.

"arrgh judge, I took dem dare cuttings, and I'd do it again!"

so... they can spray your plants with roundup?
does that mean you can spray them with Acephate? just curious.

arrrrrgh matey,
me parrot did it.

---------

what.... that ain't a wooden peg leg.. it's a giant dibble.

Piracy is theft, simple as that.
Propagate all you want for your own non commercial use but selling is theft.
What's so difficult about?

You know Bamboo, I don't have a problem with that concept, either. I have had patent inspectors here on a few occasions, and it didn't bother me. The only thing is they didn't start coming until I got a license to propagate certain stock. Inspecting my greenhouses were like singing to the choir. Of course I wasn't pirating....if I were, why would I apply for propagation licenses and pay royalties? LOL. They never came around when I just bought rooted stock with patents on them.

I'll tell you why I don't mind them enforcing the patent laws. There are a lot of little, and remote (but not so little) nurseries in my area. When I find stock from them flooding the local market at prices less than I pay for a rooted cutting, there is only one way they could do it and that is to propagate it themselves. Hey, I don't know if they have a license, maybe they do. But some of them don't even have nursery licenses, so I suspect they don't.

Who do they hurt? It hurts all of us who do it legally as well as the breeders. As far as destroying your contriband stock. Hey, if you didn't pay the royalty, it isn't your stock..........it's theirs.

Reminds me of an Ethiopian cabby who complained to me that the thing he hated about America was that "you have to pay at every click".

He should go to Italy. You pay for everything in Italy. Water in a ristorante. An elevator ride to the top of a small, quaint town. To see the bones of the saint. To get off the autostrade.

Hell you even have to pay to get there!

Well worth it though. Just like paying for the propagtion rights. It keeps everything going. If there is no return on the time investment for breeding new plants, people won't do it.

jb

I have no problem paying for a REAL plant patent.
I've seen so many plants tho that are patented and are identical as far as I can tell to thier wild cousins.
Artemesia vulgaris 'Variegata has been around for decades if not longer.
PW's comes out with 'Oriental Limelight'

I've seen it alot with Pelargoniums as well.... like, gee, that plants from the 1800's and you just patented it.

geez man, what next, ya gonna patent the clover growing under the benches?

dp

Bambooo, very funny. I agree with penalties for plant patents, (although I feel also they are over patented). However isn't that what courts are for? If PW's enforcers come in with their Roundup, are they going to pay if the drift hits my $14.95 Heucheras? Have any of you had to sign a contract with them? The only PW I have is shrubs from Spring Meadows, and they put Spring Meadows Colorchoice under the PW umbrella. And I don't propagate shrubs, so I do not expect to have any problems, however I just think PW has gone to far in this. Thanks for your comments, Polly

Sometimes I have to sign contracts, but often the contracts for patented plants are implied. To order one is consent.

Geeze.......courts? Let's put more burden on the overworked justice system. But, fines........they can happen. Wouldn't it just be easier to have the plants destroyed? I'd like to know how anyone could get past the embarrassment of getting caught stealing, let alone get indignant about being busted.

Sorry, don't agree. I would agree with fines, however, if they come in and destroy plants, and you have a contention that the plants were not pirated you would lose all proof. Why not just assess the plants and fine you the amount of the patent. Why destroy a perfectly good plant. Of course one should be embarrassed if they are doing something illegal. I agree contracts are implied when I buy a patented plant, but I don't think the implied contract gives them the right to come in and Roundup plants. And I certainly would not get indignant if I was caught doing something illegal. I was asking above if anyone had signed that contract with Proven Winners allowing them to come in and Roundup your plants if they feel they were pirated. Polly

Polly, I'm not trying to breed a scab. I have been licensed in the past to propagate some protected material and am just trying to share with those who purchase such material the seriousness of infringements. Yes, I have signed such agreements. I have also seen such agreements on boxes and packing slips and order confirmations, and in the broker's catalogues. Some suppliers are more thorough than others, but it's common. In this case just accepting the material is a consent.

The inspectors who visit will not be from the plant breeder, but from the group who administers patent rights and royalties. There are more than one, of course. They can and have counted my stock, asked for my suppliers' names, checked for proper tagging. One year the supplier who sent me some cuttings failed to supply the tags with the order. In this case, I had to give the inspector the name of the company who did this. Poo Poo also rolls uphill. I'm sure they may have been contacted.

I'm enclosing a link to a samply agreement. Such notices may be on the boxes, on the packing slips, sent with order acknowledgements, or in the broker catalogues. If you don't see one anywhere, just having paid a royalty fee on it should alert you there are implied rights of the patent owner.

The inspectors I have met were very professional, courteous and just doing their job. They weren't gestapo. They have as much right to be in my greenhouses as the nursery inspector. It's a license thing. I am sure they are empowered to deal with suspicious situations in various ways and a lot of what they do would be governed by the attitude and actions of the growers. Plant breeders do btw take people to court. Hope this is link in informative.

Here is a link that might be useful: sample non-propagation agreement

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Calliope, and I agree with what you said, and am aware of all that. I've been in business many years, and understand the contracts, written or implied. The inspectors who would come in, in this case are from RAI. My point is I don't believe it is proper that someone come in and use Roundup in my nursery. That's it, I totally agree that steps should be taken to be sure the rights of the patent owner are inforced. Fine me, sue me, take me to court, just don't use Roundup in MY nursery.

I think this would pretty darn hard for them to enforce effectively and with any kind of consistancy. I have no idea what kind of inspection process licensed growers may have to go through, but from a retail point of view, the chore would be endless and fraught with all kinds of legal entanglements. Proven Winners sells a whole lot of stuff under their label that is NOT patented and I should think neither the grower nor the retailer is under any obligation to sell it tagged as 'Proven Winners' product. How would they know if the nonpatented plant you were growing/selling was included in thier licensing agreement or obtained from another supplier?

And Proven Winners is not necessarily the patentholder on all the patented plants they sell anyway. They are acting as a broker for the developer in most cases.

I thought you asked several questions, one of which was "has anybody signed such a contract"? I have. Then you also stated you didn't think that such a contract gave them the right to come in and destroy such material. It's written right in the contract they do have the right to destroy it, that's why I linked the URL. You also asked how we felt about it, and I'm OK with that as well. Are you for sure they just open up the roundup and let it fly inside the facilities?

The fact of life is, nobody has to order material from them and can avoid the restrictions invovled with patented material. But, the Name brands are seared into the client's consciousness. Nobody asks me for calibrachoa, they ask me for "Million Bells". I carry the lines that the breeders spend so much to advertise, because they simply sell themselves. To me, it's worth the possible hassle.

Calliope, I think perhaps we are misunderstanding one another, at least on my end maybe. When I said on Thursday, in response to your Thursday posting I didn't think the contract allowed them to come in and Roundup, I was referring to the implied contract. Obviously the written one does, if that's what it states. And no, of course I don't think they are just going to come in and start flinging Roundup around. But if they come in, and it's a windy day, are they going to say they will come back when it's calmer.
Gardengal48, you make a very good point. And maybe it is just a scare tactic on PW's part.
And AgastacheMan, what are you referring to with that Waaaaa, are you calling someone a whiney baby. If so meet my husband out in the parking lot in 10. LOL And good luck with the plants you intend to patent. I would love to know what they are, and maybe be able to sell some at my nursery. This has been a very interesting discourse, and I'm signing off now. Thanks all. Polly

'but then again, crappy companies like Proven Winners have a crypt full of lawyers to create a neo-ethical plan of bureaucracy that benefits only them.'

agastacheman, what makes you say that Proven Winners is a crappy company? They don't keep the small grower away from their product - they don't even license any propagators, you buy plugs from them and grow them on. yes, you have to use their tag, but that's it. You are not required to use their pot, unless you opt to do so. They are only protecting their plants, and if you have patented plants then you should only understand why it has to happen in this day and age.

Now, I'm not saying PW is a perfect company. Honestly, we love to buy unrooted cuttings and root them ourselves, we make more money that way. But, you have to give them kudos for their marketing efforts to the consuming public. They had more new plant introductions at the California pack trials this year than any other company. They are the cutting edge leaders in the bedding plant industry in this country (OK, Ball is right behind them and I think they are great too!). What is so crappy about them? Have you ever met any of the folks that work for PW - the owners of Four Star, Euro American, or Pleasant View, or any of their employees, sales managers, etc? They are incredible people and I can't say there is a rotten egg in the bunch. I bet if you took your new plants to them, you'd be pleasantly surprised at the relationship you could have with this company, and if they are indeed good garden plants, you could probably make a lot of money on royalties.

I don't understand your blatant condemndation of them.

PP

Once again, a big AMEN for you PP! lol

AgastacheMan, how much does it cost for a seed patent on a biennial? The difference in a regular plant and my plant is the more darker intense color.
What form do you use for a seed patent?

Search "USPTO".