Hi Thralen,

Welcome to RMG!

I was going to recommend you call PaulinoÂs to see if they had any of the stuff you need, but decided to check their site before posting, and I see they do carry bat guano now. TheyÂve added all kinds of things since it became more-or-less legal to grow pot in Denver! So go to the page IÂve linked below and scroll way down (under nutrients) to find the guano. I have no idea how big the bags are, but it would be worth a call to find out, and also ask about the other things youÂre looking for. If youÂre not familiar with PaulinoÂs, theyÂre just off I25 at the 58th Avenue exit.

IÂd never have the time or patienceÂor moneyÂto be looking for the things youÂre looking for to make homemade fertilizer, but one comment re: the lime! I never heard of Steve Solomon, so I googled him to see where heÂs from, and itÂs Australia. I donÂt know if they have acid soil down under, but IÂd be a little bit careful about adding lime to soil here in the Rockies. Most of us out here have soil thatÂs already way alkaline, and adding lime of any sort is only going to make it even more alkaline. If anything, weÂre more likely to be looking for some way to acidify it out here. So just a word of caution before you spend a bunch of money on something you donÂt really want or need.

And while IÂm here, an FYI! If you have a corner where you can start a compost pile with any and all organic matter you have aroundÂand with an acre, you probably have lots, youÂll find yourself with some "fertilizer" thatÂs probably way better than what youÂre putting together now  and itÂs organic  and itÂs FREE! DoesnÂt need to be anything fancy! Just throw it all on a pile and let it rot! (And some of those pine needles in the "far back" will help acidify it!) :-)

Skybird

Here is a link that might be useful: Paulino's - Gardening Supplies

How much COF are you going to make? I made some last year, and bought most everything in the smaller batches you see online. I still have plenty of it left over after making a 5-gal bucket, which is going to last me quite some time. But I'm only fertilizing containers.

As I recall, I found both of the limes at Home Despot in good sized quantities. I ordered seedmeal in a 50 lb bag....Kelp from some place online in a small quantity...Gypsum same...Bloodmeal same....Errrrrrr...I've still got all the stuff in a big covered trash can in my back yard. I'll try to go look at it in the next day or two, but I sprained my ankle yesterday and have to stay off my feet for the most part.

I used the COF last year in my 5-gal bucket containers, and supplemented it with a weekly watering of half stength liquid organic fertilizer, and my garden did very well. I didn't see any of the usual nutrient-linked disorders (BER, etc).

Thanks for the help on tracking some of these things down. Paulinos may not have the larger bags but they have several of the items so I might be able to save a couple extra trips there.

Yes, he is from Australia now (Tasmania to be more specific) but he originated in the mid-west (US) and then moved to Cascadia (Oregon) where he started a seed company(which he then sold- Territorial seeds). He did trial beds for his seeds and while he was doing this was when he developed the COF (IIRC).

We do make our own compost, we just don't make nearly enough so something else is necessary.

Regarding amount? Well, I figured most of the other tips and tricks I've used from his book have worked wonderfully so I figured I'd pick up materials to do it in bulk and use it over a couple of years. If it enriches the in-ground bed's soil the way I am hoping/thinking. Then I'll be adding in more in-ground beds and will need lots (that prepping new ground, amending, etc... thing).

Once again thanks for the tips, if anyone is looking for the kelpmeal and doesn't want to buy it online, there is a Colorado company that makes it (mainly for rose beds, although I think it is straight kelpmeal not something rose specific)that you can track down by googling:
mile-hi kelp meal
then going to the link. Click on the 'retail stores' tab and they give a list of Colorado stores that should carry it in up to 3 1/2 gallon buckets (I've no idea on pricing unfortunately).

Thralen

Also as another side note I want to mention that using pine needles in your compost or to enrich acidity is not the best of ideas. They take forever to decompose and lock up nutrients in the soil while they do. If you want to use pine debris to enrich acidity, the best way is to take pine cones (dry) and grind them down as small as you can, then you can mulch with them or dig them into the soil. You get a similar spike on your acidity as you would with pine needles but they take much less time to decompose, thereby locking up nutrients for less time.

Re: messing with acidity due to the limes, that may be correct but the primary usage of the three limes mentioned for this mix (agricultural lime, dolomite lime, and gypsum) is not for adjusting PH. The reason for their addition is to add several forms of calcium as well as magnesium and sulfur. Other trace elements as well but those three are the reason for the limes, not PH adjustment. If my PH is too out of whack from adding the limes I'll just add (as mentioned above) ground pine cone into the soil or as a mulch on top.

Sorry, not wanting to sound harsh here but I have quite a bit of experience gardening (5 years on our current land, lots more before we moved here). I was simply asking if anyone knew where to find certain ingredients in bulk, in an attempt to save money, not asking for input on my plan or tips, if I want those I'll ask for them.

Thralen

I have an idea of where you can go

Thralen, I am unable to assist you in your search to save money, as I too have been searching for similar items where I live without much success. Ordering online seems to be my best option, but then there is the extra expense of shipping.

A bit of unsolicited advice though ... the RMG forum is full of both new and very experienced gardeners, and everything in between. It is a very warm and friendly forum, but comments such as your last one, will not bring out the best in folks, I'm afraid.

Bonnie

I also cannot help in your search for materials, but the unsolicited advice or off-topic comment that appear in any of the threads on this forum may be exactly what another gardener needs to know. The flow of information that is generated in any of the threads is a wonderful thing. The sharing of ideas and gardening knowledge of all kinds in a friendly way is what we're all here for, after all.

Dorothy

As I said, I wasn't trying to be harsh with the last message. I was simply saying that all I was searching for was locations for the items I listed. I have methods that work perfectly fine and am trying to improve them (and the soil)through experimentation. I specified that I wasn't trying to be harsh because I knew that it might come out that way but simply couldn't think of another manner to state that I was not looking for other advice.

I am aware that the gardenweb threads frequently drift off their primary topic and was making an attempt to keep this particular thread on topic. If you search (in the search bar at the top of this page) for COF you will find that others in different areas have asked similar questions. Invariably the thread devolved from the intended purpose of the OP into a spat about whether fertilizer was needed, whether there would too much/too little PH in the soil after, etc... I was simply attempting to keep THIS thread from doing the same since it had begun to devolve in a similar fashion in the very first reply.

I also took affront at being treated like a newbie gardener when the person first replying (who had obviously read my post in the Who's Here thread which specified I'd been gardening for years)was trying to give me advice as though I were, and in my opinion not the best of advice since I am aware (through experience) of the slowing effect of pine needles in a compost pile.

So forgive me for being a bit testy on your so-called friendly board and allow me to tell digit that if I end up going there I'm sure to meet them sooner or later. Don't count on me being back to posting on gardenweb, it may or may not happen but so far I am thoroughly discouraged with the 'friendliness' of the board. Although, as mentioned, the information imparted along with the unsolicited advice may well be useful which might mollify my attitude a bit.

Thralen

After reading your reply, I went back over the thread to read everyone's responses again. It appears to me that everyone was trying to be helpful, but one of the limitations of the written word is that it is unable to convey tone of voice, so maybe offense was taken where none was intended? The nature of forums such as this one, require us to sift through some chaff (responses that don't specifically answer our question), to get to the seeds that we are looking for : )

>>> .....the Who's Here thread which specified I'd been gardening for years If thereÂs something in your post on the WhoÂs Here thread that says how long youÂve been gardening or how long youÂve been gardening in Colorado, please show me where. I went back to read it to see how long you had been in the Rocky Mountain West before I added the second two paragraphs to my reply. Your bio says nothing eitherÂI checked there too.

Sorry, I always assume people read for content. The content of the following quote from my post to the Who's Here thread should lead you to believe that I've been gardening for some time.

"We have about an acre that generally slopes down to the south (ranging from southwest slopes to south-southeast slopes in direction) that I am slowly (oh so slowly) trying to turn into a food basket (so to speak)."

Slowly (oh so slowly) suggests that I have already been working on it and that it is taking a long time, thereby suggesting that I've been working on turning it into a food basket for some time, which means gardening and horticulture (or more appropriately permaculture) experience.

"Currently we have raised bed gardens to the tune of 100+ square feet, as well as currants, strawberries, gooseberries, blueberries, hazelnuts (new last year), nanking cherries (new last year), black walnuts (new last year), butternuts (new last year), and roses (for the rose hips). "

If I've already got 100+ square feet of raised bed garden that would tell you at least one year gardening experience, the list of berries and nuts, specifying some this year (meaning I put them in last spring, that may have legitimately been misinterpreted to mean I was putting them in 2010 except I followed with a list of items to go in in 2010) would tell you I'd been doing those for at least two years.

Sorry for not just saying I've been gardening this location for the past five years and gardening in general (on and off) since I was four years old and helped my mom in hers. I assumed that the list would let you know I have at least several years gardening experience in my current location.

Regarding everyone trying to be helpful. I ask for specifics in finding things in the Denver area and someone replies (from the WA/ID area) with: "I have an idea of where you can go" followed by no other information or personal message, what do you think I'm supposed to think? I think I'm being told to go to he**. You interpret that in some other manner?

Thralen

Um ... no, unfortunately I think you interpreted that post correctly. I was referring to the earlier posts, before your "if I want gardening advice, I'll ask for it" response.

I, too, am trying to grow as much of my own food as possible in the small space that I have, but have only been gardening seriously for about 5 years. The reason I'm sharing this information with you, is because much of what I have learned over the years, has been from Skybird, Digit, and other folks on this forum, and from Trudi on the Wintersowing forum, as well as quite a few other kind and generous people on the GW forums. Not only shared have they shared their knowledge, and personal gardening experiences, many of them have shared their seeds and plants with me as well. I am very thankful for their generosity, and I try to pass what little I know on to the newbies when possible.

I believe you have a lot to offer this forum in the way of gardening knowledge and experience, and I am sorry that you got off on the wrong foot here. I hope that you are able to move past the rough start, and continue to contribute to the forum.

Bonnie

Well, if they interpreted it as "If I want gardening advice I'll ask for it" I can see the reaction but that isn't what I said or meant. As I said I am experimenting to try to increase yield, plant health, and soil health. In many of the other threads in gardenweb that come up with a search for COF posters have gone off on the OP, telling them they are stupid, they don't need that, they don't need any fertilizer at all, etc... I specifically said

"not asking for input on my plan or tips, if I want those I'll ask for them."

Not that I didn't want gardening tips but that I didn't want input on using the COF because I intend to do so one way or the other to find out if the author is correct in his claims.

The author who's formula for COF I am using claims that the PH won't matter that much, that continued yearly addition of organics will level it out (Both the organics in the mix and compost). I want to test this theory but... The first reply goes off on the tangent regarding PH which started the arguments in many other threads regarding COF on this very board. I tried to cut the potential PH argument off and instead ended up starting another.

My plan that I wasn't wanting input on is to test this theory that the COF and compost applied yearly will take care of your PH. Now I'm sure there will be die-hards that claim it won't work but I prefer to find out for myself and that is still my plan.

Thralen

I had some ideas of where you could find some of the supplies you were looking but. But with your attitude it will be a cold day before I share any of it. I have been gardening for 40 years plus and know many others have as much experience as I do. This board and one other are the most friendly and helpful I've found. I saw nothing in the posts that warranted the your response. Just my opinion. Jay

Elkwc - Nice way to reinforce the idea that the board is NOT friendly to newcomers. Sorry if you don't like my attitude but when someone goes out of their way to suggest I go to he** simply because I said I wasn't seeking unsolicited advice I tend to bristle.

So, thanks for the help. You've at least let me know that it is out there and I'll continue searching on my own.

Thralen

But the thing is, by posting here, you are seeking advice and unsolicited is part of what comes with it.
This is a very friendly forum, one of the best. A lot of us are rookies and want to learn and help. This did go down the dumper in a hurry and it's too bad. I was enjoying the topic of the thread and looking forward to reading more about your fertilizer plans.
Barb

Well perhaps my statements that the forum is not so friendly to newcomers should be revised to "not too friendly to newcomers who are already experienced gardeners" since I assume a newbie gardener would welcome the extra tips.

I will go through with my fertilizing experiment, as I mentioned in the opening post I have tracked down all the ingredients, I was just hoping to save money on them by buying in bulk. I did thank, and will thank again, both skybird and msfuzz who both gave good advice for where to track things down. As it stands, because of them, even if I have to go with the smaller packages I should only have to hit my local feed shop and two other stores instead of running around to several more like I would've had to with my original list.

When I do start with it, I'll most assuredly start a new thread to detail it so people won't have to dig through this one to get the data. This one got ugly and did so fast.

thralen

Thralen,
I'm not going to get into an internet war. But going to make a few comments and then not post anything else in this thread. You had already made an not so nice reply before Digit's reply. To me from your original post one would have to assume a lot to know you were an experienced gardener. To me if someone posts info that I don't feel applies to my my needs I just use what I can and move on. Like an email I receive I don't like. I know where the delete button is. No need to shoot a messenger with good intentions. The post that mentioned the lime is also the one that mentioned Paulino's. You used that info why the complaint about the other? It was all with good intentions. Skybird is one of the best and has the best of intentions along with the rest on this board. How would you like it if I came to your house and started making the rules and telling you how things had to be done? I don't imagine very well. The same when you visit or join a new board. Be gracious and don't try to lay down your rules. After the first few responses I didn't read all of the rest. I didn't need to as I have seen your type around the forums before. Like my Dad always said if you could buy them for what they are worth and sell them for what they think they are you and I could retire. I had seen enough I came to the bottom and posted. I have basically tried the method you are going too. So nothing new there. Yes all can be found and sometimes easier to find some of it in bulk than small amounts. In closing I will just say as experienced as you are I'm very surprised you didn't already know where to find all of these items. I wish you the best with your experiment. But will never suggest anything to you in the future for the fear of retaliation. Have a great 2010. Jay

I'll take your own tone here and try to be gracious. Internet custom (netiquette as it is called) also says that the OP (original poster) to a thread has some say as to what that thread should contain. You say you know where the 'delete' button is, I was trying the 'opt-out' button instead (I should've known better, opt-out buttons never work).

I was looking for one thing and one thing only, locations for bulk quantities of the listed items. I said I didn't want to be harsh with the reply you refer to and, in addition, offered an alternative to the advice given. This was not done to be hostile but done to show 1. that I am aware of such things from my experience and 2. that I was willing to share my own information. I, in addition, thanked Skybird for the Paulinos tip in the message prior to informing that I wasn't looking for other tips on this issue.

If you had read further in the thread you'd have seen that I admitted I may have poorly phrased something. I said I didn't want input for my plan or tips, which should probably have read "tips for my plan" since, as detailed further along in the thread, the materials are for an experiment I already have laid out.

In closing I will say that I did already know where to find these items in smaller sizes. I specified that I had located smaller quantities of everything on the list. My query was where to find them in bulk sizes since I hadn't looked for them in larger sizes before.

Thralen