Jennifer,
I'm on the edge of 5b/6a so quite a difference. I will give a few opinions. If you are going to start seeds I would be doing it soon. I just resowed 3 varieties that didn't germinate. I will plan on planting them by June 1st. Of course I'm sure my growing season is longer than yours. So if I was you I would want nice big plants to put out when you can. Some of the Russian varieties tolerate the cool a little better and perform better in cool springs and falls.

I've grown Black Cherry a nice one. This is my first year for Black Krim. I have grown Black from Tula and it has done well for me. I also like Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe. Money Make is a reliable producer. Not a great taste but sure beats those bought at a super market. Mule Team hasn't done well here. And I grow several I like better than Thessaloniki.

How deep I plant when potting up and also when setting out in the garden depends on how leggy the plant is. If will leggy I'll bury it deeper. If short and stocky I don't buy as deep. On a normal nice stocky plant I'll remove the first set of leaves on the bottom of the plant.

I use grown lights and also grow several in my cold frames. You can grow them like you mentioned. If you are around the house most of the time so you can move and turn them. My Mother started plants for years and always used the window sills and grew nice plants. I just think it is so much easier and also better to use grow lights if you aren't around the house during the day. I've never had many cut worm problems. But have my share of tomato hornworm problems. Hope you have a great gardening year. Jay

Thank you, Jay, this is real helpful!! I usually buy tomatoes at market and am sadly disappointed so anything better than market tomatoes is lookin' pretty tasty to me :)

I'm typing this out here to help me keep track of my choices:
thinking on skipping mule team
thinking on adding black cherry and money maker so far

Thanks a bunch!

Jennifer

Hi Jennifer,

If you have that much sun, and between the two of you, you could move them outside into the sun most days when its warm enough, I think you should be starting them now! I just finally got mine seeded last Sunday, and, amazingly, they were coming up four day later! Started mine in one of those "seed starting" type plug trays with 72 cellsÂyeah, I put something into all 72 cells! I put it on a cheap heat pad to keep it cozy, and IÂm thinkin that helped germinate them so fast! IÂve been taking them outside during the day to get them (and the other things that are already germinated) into the wind and direct sun, but have to watch really closely to keep those small cells from drying outÂespecially the ones with things that havenÂt germinated yet. The tomatoes are definitely "stretching" already, but with tomatoes thatÂs a good thing. Every time I plant them up to a bigger size, I remove the bottom 1-3 sets of leavesÂdepending on how many sets of leaves they haveÂand bury them all the way up to the remaining leaves. From the plugs theyÂll go into 3½" pots, and if I canÂt plant them out yet, theyÂll go into gallons after that. When they go in the ground theyÂll be buried deeper again. So it doesnÂt really matter exactly how many leaves you remove, but remember that all the stem thatÂs buried will produce roots, so the deeper itÂs ultimately buried, the more roots itÂll have! Starting them in 2" pots works well too, I just used the plug tray because I donÂt have enough room by my "sunniest" window for all the things IÂm starting this year if they were in 2" pots. DonÂt start them in anything bigger than 2 or 2½" pots or they might stay too wet when theyÂre still tinyÂand die!

With as much sun as you have, and especially if youÂre moving them out during the day, I donÂt think you need any other light at all! On days when you canÂt put them out, keep them in the sun as much as you can.

Since youÂre not planting yours in the ground, your when-to-plant-out question is kinda moot! If you were planting them in the ground, it doesnÂt have anything to do with the sizeÂitÂs just a matter of when itÂs "safe" to put them out. IÂm guessing that by the time theyÂre big enough to go into 5 gallon pots, itÂll be way warm enough to leave them out, but because you live in such a weird (Frozen Dead Guys Days!) And wonderful (ItÂs BEAUTIFUL out there!) place, just keep an old sheet or lightweight blanket handy to cover them if youÂre supposed to get down to freezing. If possible in the 5 gal pots, when itÂs getting really cold up there, move them inside overnite to keep the soil warmerÂtheyÂll grow faster with warmer soilÂbut since youÂll be planting them in a potting mix rather than "real" soil, they should grow really well anyway!

Since youÂre growing them in pots, I donÂt think you should have any problem with cutworms, and I donÂt know if youÂd get hornworms up there or not, but theyÂre big enough to easily see and "dispose of" if you should find any. ThereÂs also some butterfly caterpillarÂcanÂt remember the name right nowÂthat loves tomatoes, but theyÂre BIG too! Wait! It was swallowtail butterflies! The caterpillars are a couple inches long, and they blend right in with the tomato leavesÂuntil the leaves are all gone! When I was still commuting to SFO I had some tomatoes in pots, and got back home one time only to find my tomatoes virtually defoliated! ThatÂs when I learned about the swallowtails! Google a pic! TheyÂre like green and yellow stripedÂaround! Grow a bunch of parsley, and if you happen to get them and donÂt want to kill butterfly caterpillars, just move them onto the parsley and theyÂll be all cozy and happy!

Slugs shouldnÂt be a problem in pots in the sun, and I donÂt really know anything about flea beatles! I think I might have had them in my veggies one year, but I took the flying insect killer spray that I use indoors (Hey, they were flying!) and sprayed themÂand they went away, so I never took the time to try to identify what they were!

I donÂt have a lot of recommendations on the varieties, but I do have a couple comments! I know a lot of people like it, but the year I grew Black Cherry I didnÂt get ripe fruit until WEEKS after I was eating SunGold and Sweet Baby GirlÂboth hybrids, tho I think there is a "version" of SunGold thatÂs OP. OP or not, the cherries produce so fast, I recommend you grow at least two different varieties of cherriesÂand itÂs wonderful to take a baggie of cherries along in your lunch!

IÂm trying Stupice this year, on the recommendation of Jali (I think) and others. The description I have for that one is "very early," so it sounds like a good possibility.

And have you decided where youÂre gonna get them? In Â08 almost all my tomato seed came from Totally TomatoesÂand I wasnÂt at all impressed with it! DonÂt know if it was a fluke or not, but there are so many places to order tomato seeds from that I wonÂt be using them again! Two of the varieties IÂm growing this year are still their seed, Sweet Baby GirlÂwhich germinated well both times and grew well in Â08Âand Bloody Butcher which also germinated ok the first time and well this time, but never grew at all in Â08 after it was planted out, so IÂm hoping for different results this time! There was another one I got from TT that I had TERRIBLE germination onÂnone the first time I planted it, and only a couple germinated when I planted more seed a second time. So if I ever from another "tomato place" it wonÂt be TT!

Have fun planning,
Skybird

I'll probably be bringing Black Cherry seedlings to the swap this year. They'll be grown from seed from a plant that I got at the swap last year. I'd be happy to save a few seedlings for you.

My successful tomatoes last year were grown indoors next to a southwest-facing window. I didn't get tomatoes until fairly late, but they've been producing all winter and are still producing. Even indoors, in February, the cherry tomatoes are much better than anything I can buy at the grocery store. The plants are scraggly,leggy vines that are intertwined with my other plants. I expect that they'll pick up production again now that the days are longer and temps by the window are warmer. I'll probably replace them with new plants this summer.

I used to grow Stupice in Oregon and really liked it. It was early, tasted good, and produced well all season long. The tomatoes are salad-sized -- bigger than a cherry tomato, but not a whole lot bigger. I grew it one year here in Colorado, in a pot on the deck, and recall that it was one of our better results that year. If you get seed, would you be willing to share a few seeds or a seedling?

Tomatoes are easy to start from seed. Don't worry too much if they get a little leggy before you plant them outside. One often gets advice to transplant the seedlings a bit deep so that they'll develop more roots.

As you probably know, you put them outside after the last frost. We use wall-of-waters to give them a bit of extra protection and night-time warmth. A screen on top to reduce hail damage can be useful. It might even reduce mammalian depredations, which is our biggest problem on the Palmer Divide.

I think the Weather Service just gives up on Colorado. I looked at their "Freeze/Frost Occurrence Data" and the only community in your county that I can find is Boulder! Well, we know it is late date at your place and June 15th is certainly late!

Your situation reminds me of mine, years ago, when I lived "off the Bunco" near Bayview, Idaho. At that time, I felt that I could only grow Sub-Arctic tomatoes - and I may have been right.

Since those days, new varieties have been developed and we got all those from eastern Europe after the Iron Curtain came down. On your list however, I've only grown Stupice and Thessaloniki. Stupice had a good flavor and certainly ripened early. Thessaloniki ripens late and may not be your best choice. You also need to like quite a mild-flavored tomato, with that one.

Bloody Butcher is my earliest tomato, now. We refer to it as JaliRanchr in my garden. It is very flavorful.

This year, I'll try Black Cherry and I've got Legend again. Legend (another mild one) isn't an heirloom but it is open-pollinated. I've got high hopes for Kimberley as an early tomato. It may be one you should look at. That variety was developed by a gardener in Kimberley, BC and seems to have quite a lot of popularity. I figure if it grows in the mountains there in BC at 3,675 feet . . . ?

Here's Wishing You the Very Best of Luck, J !

Steve

I was thinking of going here, Skybird: http://www.heirloomtomatoes.bizland.com/
I have no idea if it is a good place or not but I do feel brave this year so there it is. I'm not sure why I was worrying about when to put them out if I can just bring them in so I'm glad you reminded me about that being moot!!

Polygonum, I am thinking of Stupice and I'd be happy to save you some starts. I'd love a black cherry seedling but only one because I'll probably buy the seeds today. I'll share a couple seeds with ya if I have any leftover!

Steve, I was not including Bloody Butcher because they listed it as "flavor is OK" and I wasn't sure about that. But, I might give it a try anyway, since it is early and has a short season. Yeah, what is going on with the weather service? I guess it makes sense because my town is on so many different levels. It goes up high and I am in part of the lower area. I can't imagine how much harder it is to grow stuff if you live on the shady side or the higher parts up here!! Maybe the variety of this area makes it not worth listing? I might look into Kimberly if I can find it. I'm also looking for Tommy Toes cherry but haven't seen it. Maybe I'll go look online now and see what there is out there.

Thanks for all your tips everyone!!!

Jennifer

I'm at 6,400 feet, and pushing the edge climate wise. I do ok, its a question of setting out large 18" plants that are already flowering, about June 6-10th.

Your biggest issue is going to be the cool nights and how long it takes to warm up the soil. I'd think about that more than which particular variety, because you're likely going to need a micro-climate to pull it off at 8200 feet. Maybe on the SW corner of a structure that gets a lot of reflective heat? Some sort of gigantic cloche with ventilation until July? I don't have any great suggestions, but I'm sure others will.

You want to start warming your soil well in advance, using film, plastic, windows, whatever. It takes 7-10 days to warm soil deep enough to get to bottom of the hole you'll dig for toms. No harm in going longer. I have film and old coldframe glazing warming my soil right now, under film I'm anywhere from 65-70ºF 6" down.

My problem here isn't the short season but the rapid warm-up in early July that causes toms to stop setting fruit.

Dan

Jennifer,

I have only grown black krim, thessolonaki (From last year's swap, courtesy of austinnhannahsmom), and Mr. Stripey. I do NOT recommend the Mr. Stripey for you--it just takes too long to ripen for me, and I'm in Broomfield. Also, I didn't see alot of production for how sprawling as the plant was--only 3-4 toms per. That's just my experience, and I have tried it three times (cuz I've REALLY wanted some of them, but Mr Stripey is officially on my personal don't grow list this year--aren't you proud of my self control?)

I don't know much about the other tomatoes you have listed, but I would recommend a plum/paste type if you like those. I had wonderful luck with both Amish Paste and, interestingly, my San Marzano did wonderfully--and those have great tomato flavor that I like fresh as well as for sauces/salsas. They have been great producers for me, fairly early and all season.

And yes, start them as soon as you can! You've got enough hours of sun in your window that you'll be fine, and you'll be replanting and burying anyway, so go for it. If you do use the larger starting pots (or even if you use little ones!), I would suggest that you brew yourself a nice cup of chamomile tea, and save the teabag. Use that to brew a weak tea, and put some in a sprayer and spray the surface of your soil daily. I use that to water my seedlings to prevent damping off, and it prevents the soil from being overwet until the babies "grow into" their homes. Of course, mine have all outgrown their peat pellets... Time to do my first planting up (ALREADY!?!?).

Only have a minute right now, so these wont be live-linked. I have that site you linked, but here are three more "tomato seed stores!" Maybe you could use them to get more info about the individual varieties. I havent bought from any of them, so no recommendations on which are good, bador ugly!

http://tomatofest.com/heirloom_tomato_seed_home.html

http://www.tomatogrowers.com/early.htm

http://www.seedstrust.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=ST&Category_Code=tofa

And heres Tatianas TomatoBase, originally from Jali I think, where you can look up info about more varieties than the world needs! (Sorry, Jali! Sometimes I think they do that with tomatoesand everything else, just to keep us buying "new" ones!)

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Category:Tomato_Variety_List

And heres the Cornell veggie rating site. I have it set on (all) tomatoes by DTM, with the shortest first. You need to scroll down past the ones marked "NA" to get down to the first one, at 40-50 days, Polar Gem, that actually has the DTM listed. And you can change the parameters to whatever it is you want to search for. This is a wonderful info site!

http://vegvariety.cce.cornell.edu/mainSearch/showAll.php?searchCriteria=&searchIn=1&ID=56&refineByID=&sortBy=daysToMatLow&order=ASC&subSort=Update+Results

Gotta go,
Skybird

Oh, my!! So much info! Thank you all for this. I'm almost embarrassed to say that I can't seem to narrow things down to six types. I'm at 13 and that just seems to be as low as I can go. Egad!

Mayberry, I took Mr. Stripey off my list. Not all sites list the same DTM info but at Dave's Garden, it was listed as longer than 80 days so I'm glad I'm double checking everything.

These are the ones I can't seem to scratch off my list. Somehow, the list grew?!:

Black Cherry
Black Krim
Bloody Butcher
Green Zebra
Hartman's Yellow Gooseberry
Livingston's Gold Ball
Livingston's Perfection
Mortgage Lifter
Moskovitch (or Moskvich)
Nebraska Wedding
Peacevine Cherry
Prize of the Trials
Stupice

Gee, I like them all!! Plus, I've got more time at home as I no longer work on Fridays, Darren has more time at home since he now works from home, mostly. Now we are thinking of getting a small grow lamp and, after I said that I wanted 13 varieties, Darren said he'd be happy to bring them ALL in and putt them all back out. He thinks we should buy a hand dolly.

I think my mouth has been watering all morning since I've been crosschecking and double checking all morning.

I think I have tomatoes on the mind!

Dan, if I have mine in pots, should I do something special to keep them warm? If so, how cool does it need to be to wrap them up or what have you? I usually bring them inside when the temps are expected to get down to 38 or if hail or snow is expected. And, when they are expected to get down to 42 I cover them up with a sheet.

Last year I didn't bother with tomatoes because the previous year was unsuccessful. It was just weird weather and they weren't really happy or flavorful. The yellow pear one came out mushy. I think I had only been bringing them in if it was going to go lower than 36 and then just covering them with a sheet otherwise.

Skybird, I'm going to check out those links. I already looked at Tomato Fest but found their prices higher than others. Still, I do like to take my time before just buying a bunch of stuff from an unknown company!

I'm a little overwhelmed right now but I'm thinking it can't be that hard, just takes effort and planning.

Thanks everyone, this is such helpful info that my brain is only thinking tomatoes.

Jennifer

I can recommend Territorial Seeds if you're looking for a reputable company with a good variety of tomatoes that do well in relatively short, cool summers. Ditto for their other vegetables.

Differences: We're much higher altitude, they're higher latitude (longer summer days). Their summer weather is dry and sunny, but it cools down almost every night. Their days to maturity info reflects the actual conditions in Oregon and thus will be longer than it would be in a warmer climate.

Seed Savers Exchange is also very reputable in my experience, and I've heard good things about Seeds Trust. I've had luck with Seeds of Change, but haven't ordered from them since they got so big.

I second Territorial. And second the post-haste time frame. Totally Tomatoes is pretty good too.

In pots, the soil warms faster which is good in spring, you'll want to shade the pots in summer. I put the WOWs in pots as well, that's all I use, take off closer to end of May and call it good. In my garden, many fewer SWCs this year, as the BH doesn't care for the look so they had to go, so many fewer tomatoes as well.

Dan

I've purchased garden seeds and many of them tomato seeds from over 30 sources over the last 4 years. Really there is only two sources I've had trouble with. And probably will never order from again. They are Reimer's and Sandhill Preservation. The first I got some crossed seeds and also poor customer service. The latter I never received a full order or a refund in I think 3 orders. There are those I like better and order from first. Then others that I will order from if they have what I like. I always order something from Skyfire Seeds here in KS. And Victory Seeds in another good one. Southern Seed Exposure and Native Seeds serve a good purpose and I try to support them. If I had the time right now I could send you seeds of most on your list. Just going through and filling the bags takes some time.

Among the op cherries I'm growing this year are Salisaw Cafe', Aunt Ruby's German Green Cherry,Amish Mayberry, Black Cherry, Guersney's Pink Blush, Sungold Select OP, Prescott, Punta Banda, Nichols and Galina's Gold Cherry. If all goes I will save seeds from those I like this summer and have them to give away upon request after the growing season is over. Just drop me an email.

One I left of the previous lists I really like is a golf ball sized orange named Juane Flammee'. It always does well for me. My garden isn't complete without it. The only other word of caution is some of the indeterminates get pretty big for 5 gallon containers and could be hard to handle and would need support. But if you have grown them that way before I'm sure you have figured out how to handle that situation. Jay

Jay mentioned Galina and if you do a RMG search using the terms "Galina" and "Windwhipped" you will find her singing the praises of Galina in 'o8 & 'o9.

She uses words like "my old tried and true," "my all time favorite" and ". . . her usual heavy crop of yummy little cherry tomatoes. Thank heavens for old faithful."

If I recall my "tomato history" right, Galina was like the first tomato to come out of the USSR.

I can't remember which Wyoming community Windwhipped gardens in but I know there are some challenging conditions there. Galina certainly is her friend.

Steve

I bought all 13 varieties I last listed. Yikes!!!

Jay, thank you for the seed offer. I'd really like to try the Galina's but I don't know what I'll do with any more than I will soon have. Do they last for more than a season? I could try some this year and some different ones next year. I don't know what happened. I looked at a few recommended sites, then, "click" I was suddenly the owner of thirteen tomato seed packs.

And, after all that, I saw the posts about Territory and went there and started to fill my cart. That must have been when reason kicked in and I gently clicked the window closed.

What am I going to do with all the tomatoes?? Darren is on a diet and, for support, I'm on it too so we have been eating lots and lots of veggies. More than usual which is kind of hard to imagine. I guess we won't have any shortage of tomatoes.

Oh, my, I hope my water bill doesn't go up too high!

Seriously excited over here...and a little nervous

J.

Yeah, J's got the bug now, LOL! I was only going to grow 6 or 8 plants last year, and now I have seeds for 150 different varieties. Welcome to the tomato addiction! You'll be trading seeds like baseball cards before you know it : )

Bonnie

Yes, the seeds will last for several years, especially if you store them in a cool, dry place.

If you like particular tomatoes, it is extremely easy to save your own seeds. Tomatoes are usually self-pollinated, so you don't have to worry too much about keeping the varieties pure.

I've found that seed I save is more vigorous and lasts longer than seed I've bought.

My 5 gal buckets only get cherries and determinates. No indets, as they'll tip over in August.

Dan

That made me laugh, Dan! My tomatoes have been happy so far in the buckets. I'm just not sure about the weather up here and the tiny amount of growing season. The first tomato year, they wound up staying inside and wound up with a few clingy bugs that just stuck to the stems and never left. If I wasn't a renter, I'd put up some kind of arbor or structure that I could use as a prop for a screen and for a sheet when it hails.

Well, I have a feeling I will only start some and not all of the seed as that will be a lot of carting around of giant pots!

The first tomato year, Mortgage Lifter did quite well in the pot and I think I was using a three gallon pot. Same with a tiny indeterminate Tommy Toes that grew to a very tall plant.

The pots and the growing upwards thing works really well...at first. If I go away for one day, I come back to plants that have suddenly grown outwards as if they waited until I wasn't watching. Cages seem useless. My friends are the ginormous six foot tall bamboo stakes.

Yeah, I dunno, now that I think of it, it could be fun growing all 13 toms!

I'll see how I feel when my seeds arrive!

Digging five gallon pots out of the slowly receding mountain of snow...

J.