Start with a pretty deep sand bed, and use a coarse form of lime as well, like granular limestone or crushed oyster shells. It grows in sparse soil, so avoid the manure. Some well aged leaf mold might be good. A little peat and vermiculite won't hurt. Drainage is necessary, and you might want to shade the roots wit some well-spaced stones. If you can get watering at a really deep level, that will also help.

Rich, I'm wondering if this will do well in the Midwest. This is another of those western sages that lives with low humidity and chilly nights, even in summer. I'd think Midwestern summer humidity and warm nights would be a bigger hazard than winter freezes.

So the midwest has the same problems that I do in North Carolina.

ccroulet - rich was simply answering the question I asked about the soil. I agree it may not make it, but I want to make sure the soil is not the reason.

rich - thanks for the advice - I'll see if I can scare up some coarse lime at the garden store.

I would leave out the vermiculite and peat too. These sages hate to have wet roots, so if you are looking for organic matter as a nitrogen source, leaf mold or fully composted potting soil over peat and sand and crushed rock for drainage over vermiculite or perlite.

Additionally, CA desert sages like S. pachyphylla are typically summer dormant and you will have a harder time establishing the roots in the upcoming months. Here in CA, we plant these sages in late fall, let the plant establish its roots through the winter and then it puts on most of its vegetative growth in spring.

I'll be interested to hear how this sage does for you and from any other Midwesterners who have had success with S. pachyphylla.

dicot: S. pachyphylla flowers in July & August.

I realize that, but I should have been more clear. Many desert/xeric plants have a semi-dormant cycle in the summer to conserve water and they put on little vegetative or root growth during that period. That doesn't mean they don't flower or die back to the roots the way some northern plants do in winter dormancy, in fact most do flower in summer. But this is why CA gardeners plant almost all natives in Fall - it's difficult to establish native perennials once the weather heats up.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would not plant a S, pachyphylla or S. dorrii or S. clevelandii this late in my garden - I would grow them in the container until October and then transplant. But I live in a dry, frost-free region and I have no idea how that scenario would work in the Midwest.

I'm hoping to see some S. pachyphylla this weekend. I suspect that at the elevation where I expect to find them (near Big Bear), they'll still be in active growth. The situation should be different at 7000 ft than in the lowlands, where growth starts in December. We'll see :-)

If I find these plants, I'll take some photos and post a separate thread as I have for S. eremostachya, vaseyi & sonomensis. To be honest, there doesn't seem to be much interest in those threads, apart from regulars like Rich and Robin. But my motive is to get these things on record, with photos & habitat info that will show up in searches and be available to everyone. I've had trouble finding the kinds of photos and info that I'd like to see for these species (I found zero online photos of S. vaseyi; I had no idea what it would look like until I found it). So I'll do it myself, taking the photos I want and posting them for future Calif. sage enthusiasts.

I like Tony Avent's attitude of trying to grow a plant and killing it three times before I quit (if then). I don't try to grow many California sages because I don't own any property where I can do experiments, and my income is now fixed.

I might try hypertufa troughs when I get more time and resources. These are portable and will allow me to test my microclimates.

The pachyphylla I planted in a xeric situation is very bushy and happy. It suffered moderate deer browse this winter which may actually have been to its benefit. Despite our recent cooler than normal nights it shows no signs of wanting to bloom. It is purely a whimsical experiment. I suspect the only reason it survived at all was because last summer was so dry. The less realistic part of me really wishes it would throw out some flowers before it becomes a member of the ghost garden.

dicto - "I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would not plant a S, pachyphylla or S. dorrii or S. clevelandii this late in my garden"

Last week was the average last frost date over here. It's prime spring planting season now.

> It's prime spring planting season now.

But not for California salvias!

I would think not, it must take a full winter season for them to develop proper roots to withstand summer drought. Here in New Jersey I like to get hardened off hardy sages in as early as possible since our summer rains can be highly variable. Even so called xeric plants need water at first, which can be a problem if they are out of the reach of irrigation.

Just my gut feeling (not being an expert): if I were planting California sages in Ohio, I'd be tempted to risk planting well before the last frost, to take maximum advantage of cool-season growth. Provided temps stay above, say, 22F or so, I'd think it would be worth the risk.

Sounds like a good way might be a hypertufa trough in a large cold frame or unheated greenhouse. Or maybe build a cloche to put over the plant in a raised sand bed to tame the stonger freezes or rains. I did this with a Salvia regla Mt. Emory and got it to form a caliper of around 1.5 inches before it got tired of the deeper root run in red clay soil and gave up the ghost.

ccroulet keep posting about the Ca. sages, they are my favorite salvias and it's good to hear about kinds to try even if I don't get around to posting on the threads you mentioned. That said our S. pachyphylla is blooming now, late spring its normal time here in the desert southwest and by July and August it is basically dormant along with S. Clevlandii and S. Dorrii as dicot said.

I have no idea what it would do in an area with milder summers however, maybe it would just put on new growth and flowers later in the season.

Maria

mohavemaria: What's your elevation?

Today I looked at a number of S. pachyphylla in the San Bernardino Mtns, CA, at elevations between 6400 ft and 8200 ft. Not only were they not flowering yet, there was no sign of buds. I know that at this locality they usually flower in mid-summer.

We are in Las Vegas at 2000 feet. "Spring" happens earlier for us than it does in the mountains. We've already had one day of 107 although it's cooled off now. Of course in the mountains it warms up months later than here and it will get nowhere near as hot so summer at 7000 feet is like spring at our 2000 feet. Only a few die hards besides desert plants keep going all summer like lantana, penstemon bacharifolius, ruellia, scuttelaria - oh and S. greggii, farinacea, and penstemonoides. Maria

Just to update, I went out and bought several bags of expanded shale to ammend the bed. Hopefully that will give it the best shot of success.

mwieder: Before you get in too deep, please check the photo of soil in my Salvia clevelandii thread. This is basically similar to the soil where I found S. pachyphylla in the San Bernardino Mtns., CA, and I would expect S. pachyphylla to grow well in precisely this same soil. This is decomposed plutonic rock.

ccroulet - as I don't have access to decomposed plutonic rock I will go with the expanded shale. I emended the bed and it looks similair to the photos you showed. We'll see what happens.