The article you mentioned should not encourage anyone to take this psychotropic plant, as I read it. It is certainly not the choice of anyone wanting to get "party hearty". Anyone trying it will give up on it after one or two attempts, according to Daniel Siebert, who runs the SageWisdom web site.

The Salvia divinorum Research and Information Center
http://www.sagewisdom.org/

The group of persons who do use it on a regular basis are interested in entheogens, which are seen as shortcuts to talking to God or your own soul. This is much closer to the useage by Mexican shamans, who also use it for diagnosing illnesses.

Salvinorin A affects kappa opiod receptors, not those that LSD and other alkaloids do. It is a powerful psychotropic agent, but some scientists do not classify it as a hallucinogen.

The problems with usage are based on the concentrates of the extracts, and persons taking overdoses. I know of a case from Philadelphia which has caused its user much grief.

From my experience with meditation and yoga, I would say shortcuts to blissful or inspirational states won't work. If you want to experience powerful insights into your psyche, try holotropic breathing exercises under supervision. If the effects on your consciousness make you uncomfortable, you will simply resume normal breathing with no negative results. Read Dr. Stanislav Grof's books, "Beyond the Brain" and "The Holotropic Mind" first.

If this plant does get banned because of misuse, native medicine men and scientists doing brain research will find their legitimate use of this plant difficult. I am a former natural products chemist and have done drug discovery work.

Finally, this is a horticultural group, and our interest in this plant is based on the fact that when it is in optimal bloom, it is a gorgeous plant.

Here is a link that might be useful: Brett's Law - Delaware

If we start banning every plant with which one can catch a buzz (of arbitrary quality), or otherwise harm oneself, we would have to ban a considerable portion of the plant kingdom. We should keep pandora's box closed and refrain from banning things until they present a clear hazard to society. How many toddlers have died due to toxic ornamentals? That's a far sadder event with clearer causality than the above example.

As long as daturas, lantanas and lobelias are still legal, I see it hard to make a case against salvia.

The problem is that Salvia divinorum is gathering political interest. As a result, many states are seeking to ban it and other species as attractive nuisances or worse. The scope of these laws is broader than you might think.

If you check a new legal act for Louisiana, you will see that many of the other species you mentioned are part of the law. According to the law, you can have the plants if they are to be used for ornametals, but not for use as legal highs. With the burden of proof on you, good luck proving that.

www.legis.state.la.us/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=318544

The more unfortunate misuses of these plants there are, the more likely the media and politicians will exploit incidents in their hunger for sensational issues.

A much clearer and present risk to the enjoyment of new plant species is the control and banning of potential invasive species by APHIS. Since it is hard a priori to make sufficiently accurate predictions about their weediness, a lot of plants will be banned that need not be.

The ornamental industry in the USA is a minor part of the economy, and the USDA/APHIS will be primarioly focused on filling the needs of Conagra and Monsanto, not those of Yucca-Do or Plant Delights Nurseries. A good number of the new Salvias amongst many other ornamentals placed into cultivation recently have come through these nurseries.

Here is a link that might be useful: Louisiana State Act 159

Does this mean we will eventually have to go on the 'black market' to get our salvias and other plants or learn now how to propagate what we already have in order to keep the strain going in our own gardens?....How very sad for everyone. There are a lot of plants that I don't grow due to their potential harm but my salvias, as limited as they are, are staples in my garden and they would have to haul me off to jail as I wouldn't give them up willingly.

Penny

I can just see the live newscast outside Courthouse U.S.A. - "And there they are, folks, those Salvia miscreants. Oh, look at that, one of them is setting fire to her pots! This is going to get ugly."

Brenda

As I understand it, the onus on the accidental or deliberate introduction of a noxious weed, Salvia or otherwise, will fall on those responsible for introducing, then propagating the pest species. They will be held accountable for the financial restitution of the problems they cause.

Salvia aethiopis is definitely a noxious weed in the arid west, not requiring disturbed areas to reseed. Salvia sclarea is persistent in some ranges in Idaho and central California and does spread along roadsides in Oklahoma from gardens. There are concerns about S. pratensis in the northwest, but the botany and the identity of the targeted varieties is somewhat confused. Salvia lyrata is spreading within its own range in the SE US and has weed potential on the western coast of the US.

I find it completely ridiculous that the governments are starting to hype this up as the "new pot", because it is far from that. I have tried salvia d. TWICE. the second time just re-affirmed my distaste for it. this is NOTHING that kids are going to abuse, it is NOT addictive in the least bit. as a matter of fact, it took me almost a year to gather the courage to try it again, to see if my first experience was just a fluke. it was not. it was terrifying. i am young(22) and i have numerous friends who have tried salvia d. and all of them have come to the same conclusion as i have.

In my opinion, and the opinion of people my age i know, this drug has absolutely no potential for abuse. and the people who are brave enough to go back and try it again and again will tell you that it isnt very often.

what it all boils down to is the governments are just looking for another "boogeyman" to go after. personal responsibility is what it should boil down to. you can kill yourself with alcohol and cigarettes, but not cannabis or other herbs.

do you know what the ironic part is? most kids hadnt heard of salvia until it was all over the news. there would be less kids trying it(and being either disgusted or frightened for the most part) now had it not been for the hype.

I have smoked Salvia d. myself, and it was a very interesting experience. I was not terrified, as I did not ingest a concentrated extract, as many people wind up doing. If one were to smoke the leaves straight off the plant, the effects wouldn't be quite as strong. Furthermore, the press is making this seem like a horrible drug, comparing it to LSD. Seeing has how LSD is man-made, I see no comparison. I agree with previous posters in that this is not the next "pot". Most people do not try it more than once, and those who do aren't doing it for fun, but rather for meditation. Shame on those politicians for banning perfectly harmless plants.

(1) I thought this forum was about Salvia *gardening*, not about how to get high with it?

(2) Most of the public, and, in particular, most news reporters (TV, radio, newspapers) know zero about science. This is relevant here because all they know about Salvia is that some people are using it as a drug. They don't know the difference between Salvia divinorum and any of the other 900 species. I saw such a report a few months ago about "salvia," without any distinctions, on a local news broadcast in the L.A. market. Therein lies the danger that the media will trumpet these problems with Salvia, and pandering politicians will respond by banning or somehow restricting the cultivation of harmless but interesting garden plants -- all because some people haven't grown out of cheap high school thrills.

Plants are wonderful things. Making any plant illegal makes it harder for that species to survive. In this case Salvia divinorum is a rare sage. Nothing more. If you research Salvia divinorum you will see that this plant depends on human cultivation for its survival. Salvia divinorum rarely produces viable seeds which makes its case just that much worse. Before making any assumptions understand that if this plant is seen as a danger and made illegal then this magnificent species will most likely be unable to survive.

Let God do the banning...and the destruction of the plant kingdom not society and its up tight, closed minded, extremist.

Same same as usual, the government always trying to keep control of your frame of mind. I personally dont think any of that crap should be illeagal. I hate our government at times.

Yeah, I laughed when I saw the comparision to pot. I've done Ayahuasca, San Perdro, and Salvia and I can say it wasn't and can not be used for recreational use easily. Plants can be very good teachers in my opinion to some people, but if used irresponsibly and at young ages they can be potentially dangerous. Unfortunately all it takes is one a two teenagers to use them irresponsibly for it to get blown up all over the media.

As far as what Rich says about shortcuts to blissful or inspirational states not working, well, I think that is not completely true. Ayahuasca has shown me great insight to my life and awareness. However, its important to understand the differnce between those states of mind and meditational states of mind and the awareness obtained through them. These plants may show you bit and pieces of a goal but the real work comes from applying the teachings to your way of life and meditations afterwards.

Plants should be used for medicinal purposes not a shortcut to get high, what is so wrong that you have to have insights via a plant?

This is a forum for discussing flowers and plants and not on highs.

I didn't start the topic. I would consider it more medicinal and not a short cut to get high. Isn't getting high suppose to be about fun? Well at least until your addicted. Well Anyway, I would encourage people to read and do research before coming to assumptions. Some plants have been used for hundreds if not thousands of years for insight in many cultures with very positive effects and I for one find it fascinating. To each there own I guess. But you probably shouldn't come to this forum topic if its offensive to you.

Viridis,

This is a plant forum....sure there are thousands of forums where you can discuss hallucigenic Salvias, such as divinorum, meanwhile we would politely suggest that you bog off.

Come on now, that's a bit harsh...

It is certaintly acceptable to discuss medical uses of plants in these forums, and Salvia Divinorum's hallucigenic properties DOES have medical uses, particularly among the mentally ill (schizophrenic, depressed, etc.). In lab mice, it's even been proven to cure cocaine addiction.

Like torajima says(thank you by the way), there has been a lot of research done with plants such as peyote and Ayahuasca that have had many positive outcomes. Comparisons of alcoholic rates in certain Indian tribes in the SW that pratice Peyote compared to those that don't in the same tribe are stunning. There have also been some interesting finding in Aya(which I am more interested in) and there are Christian based churches that actually use it on a regular basis that are quickly spreading all over the world including the UK. I personally think its best to keep and open and nonjudgemental attitude toward these plants b/c they deserve our respect and shouldn't be compared to crack cocaine or quick highs even though it may not be your thing. I'm sure many natives in S. America who have consulted Aya to get relief from having lost there land to illegal logging would agree.

Perhaps it is time to refer this issue to a Garden Web administrator. The Yahoo Salvia group administrator does toss off and block posts on this subject, and I have yet to see this issue pop up on the Dave's Garden Agastaches and Salvias group, which is at least semi-monitored.

From the administrator's point of view, they do not want a poisonous atmosphere within any of their forums which will reduce the value of the discussions. The sincerity of the opposing sides is not the issue.

It should be obvious to the pro-divinorum proponents by now that the dominant members of this group want to discuss primarily the horticulture and identities of new sages and how they grow in untried areas. We view your continued posts as unwelcome proselytizing.

The presentation of medicinal properties of sages is really off-topic and just mildly interesting. We have confidence in scientific evidence of peer reviewed articles on medicinal properties of Salvias, but reject what we feel is the overly aggressive touting of highly speculative, scientifically unconfirmed, and dubious uses for Salvinorin A. We are not interested in this approach to divinorum, and find these posts highly annoying.

Even if a citation to a valid article on the curing of cocaine addiction in mice was provided, most of us would simply choose to ignore this information because we are not interested. Please keep this information on other forums where you will find more receptive (and less skeptical) audiences.

I agree with everything Rich said. I see there being many other internet forums to discuss the pros and cons of S. divinorum use. This isn't one of them. I am against banning the plant in the US, but in favor of banning this topic from the GW salvia forum.

Wouldn't the medicinal use of plants be best discussed on the Herbal Forum? At least that would be relevant.

Personally, I think these folks are just trying to jerk-our-chains.

Hit up your local insence store for some smokable Salvia Divinorum and tobacco shops.