There are many types of Rosemary. I have one that is not trailing, more upright. And of course, if you use it often or keep it trimmed, it shouldn't take up too much room.

Ummmm. Herbs include a *lot* of plants, from tiny thymes through 6-ft dill to 20-foot Bay and even 70-foot ginko bilboa.... I'm guessing that the 4/1 is for little potherbs, like parsley and oreganos.

I'm willing to pull a bunch outa my brain at random for you--but generally, you can just use the within-row distance both ways. If the pack/book says, "thin to 6 inches apart in rows 3 ft apart" then you plant 4/1 (4 per square foot).

If anyone wants an alphabetized table with general info for the FAQ, I'll be glad to produce one--I have a good start in my personal plant table/spreadsheet.

Quick Row-garden-to-Squarefoot translations:
Thin to 12 inches = 1/1
Thin to 6 inches = 4/1
Thin to 4 inches = 9/1
Thin to 3 inches = 16/1
Thin to 2 inches = 36/1
Scatter = scatter (Some things never change....)
Chives = Chia pet in a packet, so who cares? (Besides, it will spread....)

Herbs I have grown in East and North Texas (a few from a cast of hundreds, all in pots/planters, all squared):

Rosemary: In the South, Rosemary grows to either a 6-ft bush (3-4 ft wide) or a 4-ft ("trailing") shrub about 4 ft wide. Even with a *lot* of yummy trimming, uprights get about 4 ft tall. If you start fresh each spring, you can certainly go with 4/1, and get lots of tender top growth. (They will live for several years in that size planter.)

Basil, common: Common types are 1/1 in the South, particularly when staked at the ends of your tomato trellises--in which case, expect to harvest often, and a hacksaw will cut the stem at season's end. (Basil really *likes* maters!) I seriously had to hack my "3-ft" bushes back to 4 ft several times over the course of a long summer. Final size of the stem near the crown was the size of my thumb--and I have large hands, for a woman.

Basil, the other skazillion types: Better check that growth.... anywhere from 1/1 for globes to 1/4 for the big babies

Mints: All mints need to be in separate 1-ft pots, possibly on solid rock/concrete, and maybe in cages--even their roots mingling underground causes the oils to mix, which changes the flavor of all the plants--probably not in a happy way..... (Works with above-ground growth, too. I had a catmint trail into my peppermint and root. Ahghhhhhh. :-P )

Rule of thumb: if it has a 4-sided stem, pot it separately and watch it for "expansion plans"--those are really pruning volunteers, I can just sense it! :-D

French marigolds: 4/1

Sacrificial common marigolds come in various sizes and colors: Check the seed packet. Or just plant a border around the edge of the garden, and repeat as eaten....

Purslane (herb-type--you will be disappointed by flower-type): 1/1, trails and spreads--you can try cinderblock holes, if they are large.

Nasturtiums: 4/1 (You can just poke Nastie seeds into cinderblock holes with your finger, and let them trail. Blooms taste like pepper--always remove the bitter center seed-making part from edible flowers!)

Thyme: Varies, but 4/1 is safe for most munchables. Some thymes in the South *can* grow into 1x1 plants, if they survive the winter. Otherwise, you may go with 4/1 if you trim them often or take several big harvests per year.

Chives and garlic chives: Do you seriously expect me to *count*? 8-D ('Scuse me while I take a sample, here....) Hmmm, maybe just broadcast and cut like sod or plugs for transplanting.

Oreganos: 4/1, bloom stalks can be long, but don't interfere with anything--Nice to float in a tureen of cold soup; otherwise, clip before they go to seed.

Sages: Varies with variety, but you can probably put all but the really big hummers in 4/1 if you tweak regularly.

Garlic bulb (for greens): 1/1

Garlic: 4/1 or 1/1

Onions: 9/1 or 16/1, depending on size

Shallots: 9/1, I'm told.

Walking onions: 16/1, and watch the little smart alecks.

Horseradish: Pick a remote area at the other extreme from the walking onions, buy a machete, and plan on moving to another property based on it's rate of advance....

Ginger (organicly grown, nonornamental): 1/1

Ginger (ornamental--hey, it still *smells* good!): 1/1

Lemongrass: Plan for a 1/4, about 4 feet tall, like a light-green fountain.... Or keep in a 1/1 pot; water early and often.

Watercress: Plant a few in a shadey tub and apply cold water daily, let spread.

Borage: 4/1 (*Lovely* true-blue flower also tastes of cucumber)

Parsley: 4/1 (Most people think Italian tastes better. Caterpillers aren't that picky--plant extra for them behind the low flowers in a bed or out of plain view.)

Myrtle: Well, it's gonna be tree-ish if it lives.... The shrub can be potted for, I think, about a 6-foot shrub.

Bay: 6-foot tree in a pot, 20-foot tree if planted under a tall shade tree

Ginko bilboa: Apply organic tree care plan, prepare tire swing for rapid rise to 70 feet.

Rose: Ummmm, rosehips.... Get organically raised hip producers, plant them according to variety, and give them little garlic chive buddies.....

Savory (winter perennial, summer annual): 4/1 (Rethink it if you can carry over a perennial variety: 1/1 or 1/2)

Lavender: Prolly 1/1, and do *not* drown. (Lavender dies of overwatering, rather than heat. My neglected English lav bloomed in the shade last year--not a lot, but lovely scent....)

Cilantro: Sorry, I can taste the soap.... 4/1, I'm told.

Coriander: Cilantro seeds, but I like em. Go figure. In my climate, the spice shelf is a better bet than planting.

Dill: 4/1, and plant every two weeks for seeds (they bolt). Small young leaves delicious. (Watch out for dropping seeds, and plant extra for the caterpillars.)

Fennel (edible bulb): 1/1 (Burgundy is a beauty!)

Loofah vine: Stand back! Save the children first! :-D (Young gourds are eaten like summer squash, oldies are cured for "sponges")

Chamomille: 4/1 (Self-seeds easily)

Chervil: 1/1

Yarrow: Space 18 inches apart, then start the weed-eater....

Epazote: 1/1. Caution: Herbal guide warning says, POTENTIALLY TOXIC, NOT FOR USE DURING PREGNANCY. You only need one. You will never explain that to the plant. (Mexican culinary herb said to reduce the "gas" problem of a pot of beans. Try really hard to keep it from going to seed....)

Echinacea: 1/1

Fenugreek: 4/1, or to fix nitrogen sow 1 to 2 lbs per 1000 sq ft in the fall.

Gotu kola: Minimum of 1/1, warm and moist -- add young leaves to salads and keep the weed-eater handy.

Hyssop, common: 1/4, or maybe 1/2

Hyssop, giant yellow: 1/1 (Yes, the giant one takes less room--go figure)

Sorrel, French: 1/1

Stevia: 1/1 (I will put little muslin bags over the seed heads next time, so I don't lose those expensive little seeds....)

Tarragon, Mexican: 1/1 (Leaves bring out the flavor of other herbs)

Bergamot, lemon: 1/1

Bergamot, red-flowered: 1/2 (different species from the lemon bergamot)

Caraway: 1/1 or 2/3

thanks for the help and suggestions Jacque. It looks like you can double the planting guide in the FAQ with just this post!

Howdy, josiwax!

LOL at your clever sense of humor!

I surely wouldn't just slap that jumbled post into the FAQ before composting it properly, but I'll be happy to supply an organized guide for squaring herbs if some of y'all think it would be helpful.

Personally, I'm looking for a place with a yard big enough for nice squarefoot production, where I can also tuck in a gen-u-wine herb garden based on squaring principals. Herb requirements vary 3 ways: soil richness, moisture, and light. Sounds like that would make a fabulous excuse for a 9-spoke wheel with a fountain in the center to pamper the watercress--er, provide an architectural focal point. ;->

And I want to install a 9-patch "quilt" of year-around color in the front yard, if I can get away with it. (Squarefooting makes enough time and resources available to tend 4 or 5 times as much garden as conventional methods, after all!)

And I want an outdoor reading room with a rosemary "sampler" bed by the hammock and a 6-foot rosemary hedge for the walls. Oh, yes. I *do* like rosemary, a little bit.....

We do need to get more into the FAQ, I've seen these questions several tiems before (though I've just learned some new herb names I'd never heard of before).

There are some issues with posting a table in the FAQ that I've had to learn how to work around. Essentailly the HTML for a table has to be posted as one line without any carraige returns for it to display properly, which gets to be a bit of a pain. Several smaller tables are better than a single large one (e.g. Veggies, Edible herbs, Medicinal Herbs, and Permanent plantings beyond sqft sizing )

An Excel spreadsheet would be a good start for me to finish out using some tools and tricks I have at my disposal. I might even be able to import the database you are using and work with it directly, as I am a database programmer by profession...

Ooooo! Sounds like a plan, Ray. I figured on hosting a Table at a URL linky. Lemme get busy, and we'll see what I can come up with for Herbs.

A lot of herbs work for more than one purpose, but I hadn't planned on including that data--I don't wanna be in the line of fire for medical advice issues.... *wry grin*

Jacque,

Great list, thanks! We've got some garlic at 16/1, it is starting to look a little crowded, but the plants seem happy. Shallots and multiplying onions too. Texas-sized garlic must be something, though, for 1/1 to make sense!

We could always do it as "Flavoring" or 'Common" vs "Other" herbs just to divide the list a bit.

And as far as URLs go, Spike has written the FAQ application where its simply impossible to include a URL as a link. From what I can tell, he figure's GW is probably one of the most stable long-term places for that information, and I think he's right. He'd prefer to have the info here than to lose it when someone quits maintaining a site.

Sounds good, Ray.

(Howdy, Clibanarius: Elephant garlic goes 1/1, for sure. Also, for garlic greens, I plant a whole bulb - not a clove - in a container or in-ground at 1/1. Snip a whole young shoot like chives.... 16/1 seems crowded for garlic bulbs to develop, but I'm not an allium specialist. Hope you get plump ones!)

Jacque,

Well, I'm not holding my breath (for the plump ones!). The garden started as a fun project with my 6-year-old, and we just started lots of different kinds of seeds, and stuck grocery store garlic and shallot bulbs, and worse, did this in early spring rather than fall. At least the garlic was from an Asian market and did not seem to be treated with growth inhibitors, as each clove sprouted quickly and has greenery well over a foot tall today. So it's been interesting for Nick and me, but I'm not sure how much pesto or pickled garlic we'll be making!

Incidentally, I just finished setting up a cinderblock SFG bed to be dedicated to herbs, so this was a well timed thread. I'm also trying the lasagna bed approach, more or less, although I'm a bit baffled at what's likely to happen to the plants when the medium they're in settles to, what, a third its original size?

My big surprise, however, was that this "low effort" approach was a lot of work! Specifically, once I arranged those 500ish pounds of cinderblocks on top of the well-soaked newspaper on top of the grass, I realized that one still needs to level the ground when using this method. Even though my lawn is not noticeably uneven, the blocks were all rather obviously out of line. It took a couple hours to get them to at least initially be leveled and flush. Whew! So is there some clever way to get the blocks to look good without having to prelevel the ground?

I do remove the sod directly under the cinderblocks and then scrape the dirt to smooth it. Since I'm on a hill I usually have some significant leveling work to do, but I don't level the whole bed and have decided a gentle slope doesn't hurt anything.

fennel 1/1? wow, i was told that 9/sqf is fine... that's what i did and got 8 nice ilttle fennels growng... now are they gonna crowd each other out?

As for mint,,, i yanked out - literally - two spearamints from under a bush in a neighbors yard 8 years ago. now my entire garden area is infeted with it....

and i forgot to put somekind of bottonm down for my SFG! so now I have to keep my eyes open and pull out the darn stuff..... next planting season I will dig up the entire area, get as much mint out as I can and then make a herb only 4x4 plot to go next to me veggies....

robi

pw. what is this about matters adn basil? should i stick some of my potted basil right in there with my wee little matters now? or wwait for the maters to grow a bit?

beanco,

I've got three fennel plants that easily fill an entire square foot, and if it weren't for my kids constantly 'pruning' them for their own snacking purposes, I'd say the plants would be crowded even at that!

Howdy, beanco.

Maters and basil wuv each other--whup each others bugs and germs, make each other grow bigger and tastier, pair well in a sandwich with mayo, or in a salad with Mozzarella cheese and italian dressing....

Pop 1 or more basils *carefully* at the edge of your maters--they are not fond of wiggly roots when transplanted.

My condolences about the mint. You might just consider it a *feature* to be mowed, where it isn't right by your beds. One more nasty mint feature: if the roots or stems of 2 kinds mingle, they exchange oils. BOTH plants change flavors--generally in a negative way, of course--them being mints, and all.

Each variety of mint should have its own separate pot. Not close enough for the catmint to throw a stem into, say, the spearmint and root, so both plants now taste like... um, compost.... Not that that happened to me at all. (But it did....)

wow, that's scary botu the mints....

we bout several neat looking types at a flower/gardening sale in spring... well i was layed up the very next day and for about a week after that too, with an ankl einjury, so my wife went out and planted all the minty stuff... now it is all very close and surrounded by the spearmint...

should i try and dig them up and save them?

robi

Hmm, not that it matters, but I meant to say that my three fennel plants easily fill an entire square foot each. 9/1 seems out of the question!

robi:

Dig and separate as quickly as possible. Anything in the area you are not *sure* belongs to the particular "minty thing" you are trying to save should be destroyed. (Don't worry, it'll grow back plenty fast)

Then start considering ways to contain the spearmint.

FWIW, I've had good luck drilling holes in the bottom of a big bucket the cat litter comes in, throwing some broken pottery over hte hosle to discourage the roots, filling with mix/compost, planting the mint in the makeshift "pot" and then "planting" the entire bucket leaving 3-4" sticking out. Keeps it from drying out so fast and gives ground heat for freeze protection while keeping the stuff corralled properly. I've had mints sprout out the bottom of 5 gal pots but never something that would go all the way down and back up again.

time to go a mint saving this weekend then

robi

A lot of herbs are really perennial plants and will winter over, especially the further south you are. I like growing most in pots of other containers rather than in the square foot beds -- garlic, dill and some basil are exceptions for me. Rosemary has done ok overwinter so I am looking for a place in the flower bed.

Others that winter over here (zone 7/8) -- thyme (many kinds), bee balm, lavender, oregano.

In my opinion containers is the only way to grow mint. Not only is it rampently invasive but you don't want your different mints too close to each other. If containers are on the ground it will find a way to get out.

bump

OMGoodness!! i had to copy and paste to put that in my website thingy, its really my memory so i don't have to store anything in my computer!! LOL but i absolutely LOVE your humour!! LOL i'm reading this about the herbs, and just giggling!! and yes!! if you haven't already, you should help them in the faq, and they could use the humour!! sometimes, people get so caught up in the facts, JUST the facts, they forget we like humour!! LOL **big smile** i keep all my 2 mints in a big 12" basket. one of the grapfruit mint thingi's actually broke thru, LOL so i had to go ahead and put it into a sturdier one. LOL and deeper. and set it on top of the ground. or keep it hanging. the mint is excellent if added to olive oil to keep the skeeters away. :') ~Medo

Here is a link that might be useful: barehanded gardener