I have to say that I am one of those people that don't get involved. My family and I just live our own lives and mainly keep to ourselves. I agree that this forum is not going to go too far. There just isn't very many avid gardeners in this state, it seems. But is this 'lack of involvement' only in Utah?

I also frequent the Rocky Mountain Gardening forum, and traffic has certainly dropped off there in the past month. Many of the posters are from Colorado, but a few are from Utah and Idaho as well. I think our low traffic is just that winter is coming and there aren't as many burning garden questions for people to ask. I'd bet this forum gets more attention in the spring.

I moved here from California five years ago, and it took me a few years to get used to some things around here (don't even ask about Utah drivers! My heck! :-)). But I like it. One thing bothers me still, though, and it's that I think too many people in Utah tend to be critics of our society not living up to their expectations. Maybe the expectations are too high. Frankly, I think Utahns are pretty much just like other westerners.

Anyway, give the forum six months, and I'll bet it will be humming along by late spring or early summer.

But I should also add that I think GardenWeb needs to upgrade its technology or run the risk of losing a lot of visitors. This forum software really hasn't changed in the whole six years I've been involved (except for adding annoying adds that walk across the screen). They need to implement a forum that allows anyone to "watch" or "subscribe" to any thread (not just the author) to get email notices when it is updated. They need to make it simpler for a novice to include photos in a posting. They need to have a system that flags all threads that have a new post since the last time you logged in. These are simple things that are found in many forums running on free software. They seem to have a good amount of traffic, but how long can they milk the advertising revenue before something better comes along and steals all their customers? Sorry for the rant, but maybe the ancient tech on these forums is a turnoff for some would-be participants.

Why is Utah so different? You must be new here.

I get a kick out of the way so many Utahns blame the bad driving on Califirnia imports. Until they learn that I've driven in CA.

Considering how slow the traffic is at the RMG forum, I was surprised to see this as a separate forum.

As for the ads, IE is not the only browser. I use firefox and haven't seen an ad like that in a long time.

Firefox stops the walking ads.

Boards tend to get slow this time of year because of the holidays. The Garden Web is no different.
The only place in Utah where it isn't storming/freezing today is Blanding so I doubt gardening is on anyone's 'to do' list today or the next three months.

Don't know that Utah is any different than anywhere else.
Some people get involved, others don't.
As far as Utahn's not associating well with others?
I've never noticed that and I'm a transplant!

Sorry the Farmer's Market didn't work out.
Perhaps the marketing isn't right for your area?
If you want a successful business you have to offer what people will buy; not what you think they should. Sorry we don't meet up to your expectations.

The seed catalogs will be appearing in our mailboxes in the next thirty days. That ought to perk every body up!

Lori

I've been using Firefox for some time, too, and it has reduced the annoying ads, but I do still get the one walking across the screen inviting me to take a survey.

Anyway, I'd also have to disagree with dereks' perception that Utahns don't garden much. I had been visiting Utah every summer for about 12 years before we moved here (my wife is from Holladay and we would come to visit her family), and I've always admired the many yards with flowers in front and big veggie gardens out back or on the side. Maybe folks up in Holladay are more gardeners than in other places? But I have plenty of friends here in Utah County that are avid gardeners or even those with a casual interest and a beautiful yard.

I really do think gardening is a well-established and widely enjoyed hobby in Utah. We have some great resources here, too, and I think there's more attention to gardening here than when I lived in Sacramento (although it was pretty good there, too). We have a great gardening show on KSL radio every Saturday morning, we have busy and beautiful nurseries, we have wonderful public gardens like Thanksgiving Point, the Jordan Valley Water Conservancy demonstration gardens, Red Butte, Temple Square, BYU, and some cool corporate gardens, like at Tahitian Noni in Provo and the large rose garden in front of O.C. Tanner's headquarters on State St. in SLC.

When I lived in Sacramento, it was sometimes hard to find enough flowers that would thrive in the July-August heat waves, but I find Utah's valley climates to be wonderful for flower gardening. And we can even grow tomatoes almost as well as in good old Sacra-tomato.

This is a pretty darn good place to live for gardeners, I think!

Stevation, maybe you are right about my perception of Utah and gardening. I'm the only one in my family that really likes to garden. My wife doesn't even know the back yard exists. I have no friends that like gardening, so I guess that's where I get the idea that no one in Utah likes to garden.

Steve said: "We have a great gardening show on KSL radio every Saturday morning."

I'd almost forgotten about that show! It was one I looked forward to when I lived in West Valley. Now, remembered, I miss it.... sniff!!

Crystal

Crystal, where do you live that you do not get KSL?
Maybe you could have it stream into your computer, and listen to the show that way if you live out of range.

I think Stevation is right about this forum picking up in the Spring.
Right now, only us die hard gardeners who probably get out in the yard even when it is really cold, just to do something~~ I know I am guilty of that!~~ are posting.

I am sending my kids out after school today to rake all the leaves and put them in the compost pile.

Getting back to Why is Utah so different?

I think Utah is different from alot of the areas that I have lived in, but it is changing from the way that it was as a kid.
When I was young, everyone I knew was LDS, and it seemed like everyone knew everyone, even if they we not from the same area or even the same state.
I was amazed to hear my dad talk to people and weather they were from Idaho or Iowa, if dad said "well do you know so-and -so" they person 99% of the time would say yes and they would talk about that person what would lead to them knowing another person, in a completely different state!

It was a good thing, and a bad thing.
I knew of some friends who had parents that would not allow them to associate with kids that were not LDS, I always thought this was wrong and stupid.
I knew lots of good kids that had few friends cause of close minded people.
I am glad that Utah has a great diversity of cultures and religions now, I miss the way it was when I was a kid, but I have several friends here that are Jewish, Catholic and Luthern.

When I have lived in other areas of the country, "I" was the minority, being LDS...
if I did not make friends with people outside my faith, I would have had no friends at all!
I remember living in the Bible Belt and my Baptist co-workers trying to save my soul from burning in hell. I told one of them to put religion aside and just be friends with me, she couldn't do it. But another girl could and we forged a great friendship on mutual respect and the fact we both were avid gardeners and would share goodies from our garden and kitchen with everyone at work.
My life has been greatly blessed and enriched by everyone I met in 35+ years on this earth, and I am thankful for them all.

Just had a thought, the LDS people are taught to live providently, had gardens, can and store, have a two year supply of food for times of unemployment, disaster, things like that...
This state should be one of the greatest producers of produce in the country if all those who know this, implemented it into their lifestyles.
Maybe they do not, because they 1) do not know how 2)Do not have the time 3) Some do not have the space, but even a patio garden can yeild tomatoes and peppers easily- not that I would want to eat tomatoes and pepers all the time.
4) they just do not have a passion and a joy for gardening like we all do in this forum.

So maybe what it all boils down to is Utah has been different in the past, should be different cause of provient living/gardening, but is not that different from other places because of complancy.
So, no, we are not that different, there is good and bad in every state and there is good and bad right here in Utah.
I personally like to accentuate the positive and see the good and the beauty in everything

Am I way off base here? I don't know, haven't taken the rose colored glasses off yet this morning. :-)

I think it's partly just in knowing how to approach things and that you are partly correct. It is hard to get people involved at times. Utahns give more hours of service than any other state. Unfortunately, it mostly goes to one source- the LDS Church. If you deduct the hours given to the Church, Utahns give less public service than any other state. I'm sure that's what you're experiencing.

However, I've also seen people who are already over-worked in terms of service dig really deep and support local projects. I was in charge of a playground project a couple years ago and we had nearly 6,000 involved. They all came and volunteered on work shifts to build the project over a 10 day period. They also helped donate funds to build it.

It's very difficult to get something going here but it can be done. However, it often takes more effort and perseverance than it's worth.

Hey Bill! We made it to page 2!!! The posts are starting to pick up now, so I think this forum is becoming a good community. Let's keep it going!

By the way, Utah does drive me crazy in a lot of ways, too. But it's a good place to garden and, six years ago at least, it was a place where I could afford to buy a big yard. I feel sorry for newcomers who have to pay outrageous prices, like $300k just for a half acre BUILDING LOT around my community!

Ok, Ya guilted me into signing up. I am usually just a lurker and read alot but don't talk much! We just moved here a year ago and are still getting aclimated. People do kinda keep to themselves we've noticed. So I started gardening again after 10 years, keeping myself occupied. Its wonderful, we moved here from Arizona and its very hard to have a garden there so I think its great here.

I hope we get to keep this "Utah" forum I have lots of questions!!!

Welcome Nutmeg! Glad you decided to start posting.

I don't really think there's any risk the forum would get shut down. Unless GardenWeb goes out of business, of course, but it's been around a long time.

BINDERSBEE, You are right. People are very devoted to the church. And STEVATION, I can see why the state could "drive you crazy." The LDS church has some very good principles and people are very good, but the politics don't always mtach that high standard.

For example, according to the Salt Lake Tribune article "Weird Laws Clutter the Utah Code" Utah parents can give written permission to teachers to hit their children even though none of Utah's public school do it. (Dan Harrie and Judy Fahys, January 18, 1998).

The law was passed in 1992 and says:
"A school employee may not inflict or cause the infliction of corporal punishment upon a child who is receiving services from the school, unless written permission has been given by the student's parent or guardian to do so."
UTAH LAW 53A-11-802
www.le.state.ut.us/~code/TITLE53A/htm/53A0C034.htm

In other words, who ever a child lives with- be it an adoptive parent, step-parent, or uncle- can tell teachers to hit the child with a thick board leaving redness and welts. The thick board is called a "paddle" and was invented to beat slaves.

Since the end of slavery in 1865 America's schools and institutions have step by step abolished corporal punishment. Hundreds of global and US organizations like the United Nations, the US Parent and Teacher Association, and the National Association of State Boards of Education have passed resolutions against corporal punishment. They believe students have the same right to be protected from physical violence as do wives, animals, and criminals.

According to Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance, "the LDS church has consistently discouraged this approach to child rearing. President Hinckley: "called physical abuse of children unnecessary, unjustified and indefensible." He said: "I have never accepted the principle of 'spare the rod and spoil the child.' I am persuaded that violent fathers produce violent sons. Children don't need beating. They need love and encouragement." (http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_intr.htm)

Then in 1997 the Utah Senate tried to ban school beatings completely.

The Salt Lake City Tribune wrote an excellent editorial supporting the proposal. It explained that beating students in front of their peers "implies they are less worthy of respect, less human than those whose whose parents say "keep your hands off my child."
"Hands Off Those Students," 23 January 1997, http://www.corpun.com/ussc9701.htm

But when the Senate sent the bill to the Utah House, the House disagreed and the bill died.

Now 10 years later the state Office of Education has a regulation against beating students but it does not override the law allowing beatings with guardian permission. Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance stated in a 2006 report that while it is not practiced, some school districts "do not have a formal ban in place."

While school staff may be under the impression that it is illegal, some districts are still printing handbooks saying teachers can beat students with permission.

For example, the Salt Lake Tribune reported that San Juan School District's school board unanimously opposed the idea of ending school beatings. Its handbook states:

SAFE SCHOOLS POLICY
A school employee may not inflict or cause the infliction of corporal punishment upon a student who is receiving services from the school unless written permission has been given by the student’s parent or guardian to do so. This applies to students under the age of eighteen (18), or under the age of twenty three(23) if the student is receiving educational services as an individual with a disability.
http://www.sanjuan.k12.ut.us/Policy/6000/6500/6510.htm

Kane School District's handbook has the same policy.
http://www.kane.k12.ut.us/html/policiesA.htm

How is beating students with thick wooden board part of a "Safe School?"
And safe for who? Teachers who can't handle students criticizing them to their friends?

What kind of school lets guardians give permission to beat 22 year old disabled students?

On top of the disgusting policies of certain public schools, Utah's law and State Board regulations have no effect on school beatings in private schools. In fact, the government does not collect statistics on hitting in private schools, so there is no way to know for sure whether it is being used. Several teenagers have died in youth boot camps in Utah.

In 2006 SURVEY USA found that only a tiny minority - 15% - of Utah citizens supported corporal punishment in school. Why should their unfortunate children be humiliated in front of their protected classmates?

The poll's results show that Utah legislators have a responsibility to enforce the will of the overwhelming majority of its citizens and free children once and for all from the threat of school beatings.

NOTES:

"Hands Off Those Students," Salt Lake City Tribune, January 23 1997
http://www.corpun.com/ussc9701.htm

Utah House Education Committee,
Representative Gregory H. Hughes, Chair
Republican - District 51
http://www.le.state.ut.us/house/members2005/bios2005.asp?id=51

For the other members, click on Committee Membership: http://www.le.state.ut.us/asp/Interim/Commit.asp?Year=2007&Com=HSTEDU

ON THE CHURCH OF LATTER DAY SAINTS' OPPOSITION TO CORPORAL PUNISHMENT:

On the Matter of Spanking by Glenn I. Latham , http://deseretbook.com/mormon-life/news/story?story_id=754
Joseph F Smith's biography , http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/people/joseph_fielding_smith.html
Parenting the Lord's Way by Allen Leigh , http://www.shire.net/mormon/parent.html
The Book of Mormon's Opposition to Corporal Punisment , an essay , http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp?ch=11&se=127 Discipline and the Plan of Salvation by Nola Redd , http://lds.families.com/blog/discipline-and-the-plan-of-salvation

Here is a link that might be useful: Parenting the Lord's Way

With respect to horticulture, gardening and farming half of Utah and about 80-90% of Nevada is Great Basin -- and it is different.

Plants don't read maps.

So, the Utah forum and the Nevada forum should not be but for the fact that people do read maps.

I am guessing that there are just not enough people in half of Utah and Nevada to sustain a forum. Good forums need an occasional unanswered question at the top and a few new answers down the page almost every day.

Here is a link that might be useful: Further reading about the Great Basin

If people in Utah not getting involved in gardening there are plenty of nurseries & greenhouses that come spring are packed with people buying loads of plants. LOL

I used to be just a shopper at one & thought it was horrendous to get a parking space, find a cart & try to make my way through the greenhouse aisles, then stand in the checkout line.

I don't know what I was thinking about working there but I did & it was more of a pain in the behind doing that!

And most of my job was wholesale to associated food stores.

We were kept extremely busy.

There are many gardeners in Utah, but lots of them don't use the computer or internet, or at least don't come to this website to post. I spend at least 2 hours in my yard everyday but just recently started posting here to keep myself occupied while I work a graveyard shift. Once Im back to a normal shift, I probably won't be here anymore, cause I'll be too busy experimenting in my garden :)
I have numerous friends, family, neighbors that garden too.

tweedbunny, I am not following. I did my best gardening experiments while working graveyard whilst working normal shifts others intruded.

There are many gardeners in Utah, but lots of them don't use the computer or internet, or at least don't come to this website to post.

I think too that a lot of them are very busy with what should be the most important thing; family.

I know if I had a large family I wouldn't have much time for anything else.

I have always thought utah was full of gardeners. Almost all af my neighbors have at least a small garden. I do have to be quick to give away exrta veggies sense I am compeating with hundreds of other veggie bearing gardeners around.

"tweedbunny, I am not following. I did my best gardening experiments while working graveyard whilst working normal shifts others intruded."

:) I meant, graveyard shift is the only time I post on this website because Im sitting at work with not a lot to do from midnight to 8am. Any other shift doesn't allow me time to websurf. But regardless, I still garden lots whether Im working graveyard or other shifts. Glad someone feels my graveyard pain! :D

Interesting comments. I've lived in Utah all of my life near Logan (in Cache Valley), and I know "tons" of avid gardeners up here that I have contact with quite often. Gardening is my way of life. Despite zone 3-4 winter temperatures (I've seen -45 F. here), I love growing outdoor palms, banana, elephant ears, cannas, hibiscus, wisteria, all types of fruit trees, cacti, yucca, Magnolias, azaleas, bonsai, bamboo, clematis, giant reed & other grasses, annuals, vegetables, grapes and the list goes on and on. I've got contacts throughout the state with similar interests. I'd be happy to discuss gardening with anyone!

here is my theory in respect to gardening. it is damn hard and downright disappointing for most people in a high mountain dessert. they get excited in spring and read all the better homes and garden mags and jump right in. six months later their yard looks like crap and it is a struggle to just keep the grass alive. i think people get discouraged that their yard does not look like martha stewart's. anyone can have a gorgeous garden with relatively minimal effort in the east and west coast, but in the rockies, it is more difficult to have the traditional new england yard. you really have to know you plants and get good with sprinklers and drip lines to have the same effect. then there is xerascaping or should i say zeroscaping. nine times out of ten the results are so poorly executed that a vacancant lot looks better. i really hate it when people rip out their yards and replace it with a few rocks, black plastic showing through an inch of bark and a yucca. sorry that is not anithing ending in "scaping". water-wise and poor taste are not synonyms. they get discouraged and abandon it because it does not look like red butte gardens. the effect is even worse since they don't "have" to do anything to keep that single yucca alive. my yard is nothing t right home about, but i try and derive great satisfaction in working in it, but it is a constant disapointment when compared to my vision of an english cottage garden.

my good friend is a landscaper and he says utahs are just cheep when it come to landscape. we put $5k into landscaping a $300k house. he claims californians will allocate a quarter of the budget to the landscape�"an exaggeration i think, but there is probably some truth as well. for a good portion of the year, it is just not that pleasant to be outside here (compared to say california). people don't use their yards as an extension of their houses as much. and don't value it as living space.

my neighborhood is somewhat unique in that there are a great deal of beautiful yards and a good deal are maintained by the owners. about a quarter have water features. my neighbor keeps bees. we share produce, plants and seeds. it is a very house proud neighborhood. most people don't have boats and atvs, we have projects. we talk about our remodeling projects more than anything else. we are different, but that is why i live here�"i fit in.

here is a novel idea. rather than complaining about lacking people on the forum, lets recruit some participants. we all have friends that we talk about gardening with outside of this forum. invite them. the lack of participation i believe largely due to the fact that people don't know it is here. if everybody brought one person the forum would double exponentially. tell the guy at the nursery, your grandpa, they guy at the farmers market, etc. when ever you are talking about gardeing stuff, invite the person to log in. i wish somebody would have told me. i found it by accident. i have made about 20 posts to garden web forums in the past week. i am sure i will settle down when the novelty of all the information and like minds wears off, but i am in for the long haul. i am sure there are thousands more like me who just don't know. don't think any state-wide attitudes will change, but we will at least have good a forum of good company.

Interesting insights, kliddle. Maybe because I moved here from California, but I did put a lot into my landscaping. About $25k (and seven years ago that money went farther than it would now). I had a half acre of blank canvas, and it was fun to work with! Had some grading and rock walls put in, the whole sprinkler system, and then 42 trees, 205 shrubs, and about 300 perennials, along with some sod. I kinda went crazy with all that stuff. Later, we added a roof over the deck and have tried to make our backyard an integral part of our living space. Yeah, we don't use it from November to March, but we get plenty of use at other times.

Some of my favorite things in my gardens are the fruits and berries. I have a good sized patch of raspberries, two strawberry patches, a nectarine tree, two apples, and two cherries. I just made my last apple pie of the season last night -- I love doing that. But I also have a lot of fun with the flowers, too. Just love to look at them, especially in mid-June to early July. That's the peak season for most of my flowerbeds.

But I don't know many others in my neighborhood who share this kind of garden fascination. Well, there are probably four out of 40 homes. Maybe 10% ain't so bad. I'll urge them to get involved on the forum, too!

Thanks for the call to action.

i checked out your blog a few days ago. you yard looks very nice. trying to place the location from the very little glimpses of the mountains in the background. utah county?

given my placement in an 80 year old east bench neighborhood in SLC, my canvas is a lot smaller and was pretty ragged, but it did come with 75 ft tall american elms in the park strip up and down the street. last summer i demoed the yard for the most part. the back and side are still mostly bare, but the front is mostly in with patches for annuals. time and budget have held me backi am a pathological do-it-yourselfer. the big thing last year was the pavers in the front, courtyard walls, pergola, irrigation and formal concrete pond. i am a fan of layering and dividing the yard into "rooms". i also like to use edible plants as bedding plants. it will take a few years for the kiwi to get up on the pergola in the front, so i planted a squash on it this yearÂpretty interesting with the hanging fruitÂyou can see a few hanging on the left side of the photo of the front of the house. i also had leeks, tomatos and cucumbers in the flower beds along with the berries and fruit trees. some might think it is weird, but i only an eighth of an acre to play with, have to put the veggies where i can. cant decide what to do in front of the wall. it is currently strawberries. there is some ivy starting on the wall, but is only 8" this year. i was thinking on planting two upright beech trees on either side of the entrance to the courtyard. any ideas?

the plan i had to submit to the "planning comittee" (wife). needs a little explanation to understand. the black is either s structure or a wall. white is either concrete, pavers or empty to acomadate a larger future garage. sure you can figure out the green. it has changed a bit.

front of house. poor phone photo. helps the plan make a bit of sense

pond and unfinished back yard. i am an avid water gardener and fish breeder. the yard is not too compelling, but i have hopes to one day have a nice formal kitchen garden with raised beds and a pergola covered patio. someday.

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Utah differnt, No I think it's just the do it your self attiude that we all have if we can't do it we don't want it. Depending upon where you live and neighbors it can be a little hard to get people involved if you not LDS. I am LDS but am non particpating I grow lilies and dahlia's. Gardens take a lot of time and maitience over the intire year, and withour not so dependable weather it can get a little dissapointing. I want to try leaf crops but, think that with our sudden spring-summer warm up that they will bolt to fast. So I think I will keep to tomatoes squash and the like I am a Utahn Josh

Kliddle really enjoyed reading all your posts and being from calif I have to agree w/ alot of what you wrote. I love cedar city its exactly what I wanted in a small community, yes I do wish there were more things for me to do as far as finding others w/ the same interest, but I haven't been here long so I am still thinking I need to give myself sometime here, but I am not going anywhere so hopefully as I get to know people it will all come together. Yes the clay and rock are a bit much.
Enjoyed your photos.
dee

Hummmmm, Interesting. I am Utah born, lived here all of my life from Moab to kearns and finally in Sevier County. We are all the same we utahn's. We do not see us as so different. It seems like people that move to Utah from other places see us as such. We live in a wonderful place and we only ask that you all remember we are who we are. Stay and you are welcome. We do it our way. We can be standoffish we don't intrude on others lives. But ask us and we will be there.

Well, two years after this thread was started, the forum is still around, and traffic has picked up quite a bit, it appears. Some things just take a while to catch on.

And yeah people in Utah are different, and have their quirks. But, um, so are people in Texas, Florida, Oregon, and everywhere else I've been. I love Utah, and I just do my own thing, and I'm happy about it. If you think it sucks here, I would suggest six months in Vegas. After that you'll see what a thriving community it is here....and everywhere else, except Vegas.

And now, back to gardening, for me.

Don't get me wrong, I am a transplant and LOVE UTAH! It is a great place to live.

I have done a lot of traveling and spent time in most areas of the country. The one thing that is different that sticks out to me is passing people you don't know in public. People here don't make eye contact, yet every other place I have been strangers say "hi" in passing. I noticed this a lot when I lived in the Avenues and walked my dog daily. It is almost as though people are afraid of anything new or different. So they avoid strangers. But then I am not LDS and have found that UT can be very segregated as far as religion goes. Most of the LDS people I have known don't socialize with non-LDS. But that is small potato's considering all the positive about this state and the LDS people. I have the utmost respect for the self-reliance nature of the LDS culture.

But as far as gardening goes, I would be willing to bet there are more "hobby" gardeners here than in most other places. The state was founded on taking care of yourself (one of the great things about this state). We live in the large metropolitan area of Salt Lake valley and have water rights to an irrigation ditch that runs through our yard (you don't see that everywhere). Almost every one of our neighbors has a garden and the neighbor across the street has two cows, chickens and a rooster. My husband is from rural OK and was shocked to see live stock within city limits. He made the comment "we don't even do that in OK" lol.

I told him, we high desert westerners are a tougher breed. Ha!

Hi Utahans...I was just wondering what area of Utah has the mildest/warmest climate for growing fruits and veggies? I've been thinking of moving from where I live in Oklahoma to a less humid climate. I know that Utah has a varied climate so it can be a bit confusing in attempting to choose the best place for gardening.

All of your posts on this thread have been very interesting and helpful this far. Thanks so much!

Utah varies tremendously depending on where you are. It is evident by looking at a zone map. Where many states in the east have only one or two climate zones, UT has many the swirl around the state.

We live in Salt Lake Valley and my husband is from Grove OK. He says the winters here are nothing compared to OK. Mainly because of the humidity. We have none.

The Southwest corner of the state is very warm and dry. Mild winters and VERY HOT summers. It is pretty much desert in the middle of a beautiful red rock landscape. It may get to hot in the summer to grow much of a garden but I guess they just grow things at different times of the year.

Check out the difference between a zone map of OK and zone map of UT. This will help give you some idea of the warm and cold locations in the our state.

It is a beautiful place to live!

As you can see, OK is zone 6 and 7
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While UT ranges from 4-8. Anything in UT zone 6 or above will seem less harsh in winter than OK.

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