this may be a burning question indeed! i.e. i may be burned at the stake for my contribution!
stefan, the parmas have a distinctive appearance even without flowers. the foliage is slightly glossy where most odoratas are not. there are some hairs on the leaves, though less than the average odorata. a fairly accurate guide to parma vs odorata is that the parma leaf is tongue shaped, drawing to a sharper point and longer than it is wide. most odoratas (all the double hardys i can think of) have a more rounded, blunt leaf that is wider than it is long. so, if you have a double flowered violet with shiney foliage which is longer than wide, it's a parma. if it has rounded, matt foliage which wider than it is long, it's a double hardy. (this doesnt cover the double japanese violets, but they are distinctive in other ways.) i will try to upload some pics to support this suggestion.

Rob,

That's fascinating! I had always wondered, considering that everyone maintains they're some other species, how they could classify them (since they pretty much don't have normal sexual parts to look at... being double and all that). I will have to pay close attention to every picture I look at now. Does anyone else know of additional clues? Could any of these differences be due to environment/growing conditions in places? If parmas really derive from V. alba as some say, why do they lack hardiness (I thought that species is quite hardy, or do they have subtropical subspecies/populations?)? Am I going to have to start paying the AVS money if I ask any more questions? :)

Thank you; I sincerely hope you don't get burned at the stake! I'm glad you're taking such a risk, but I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt trying to respond :) Looking forward to some pics of violet foliage!

Many plant identification characters can seem clear when you read them, but a lot more woolly when you try to apply them to real plants.

Separating odorata and Parma is no exception. I go along with Rob's comments, though I would add that alba leaves are often longer than broad (and alba is easily confused with odorata, but I don't know of a double alba). The glossier leaves are a good factor, though. Also, Parma leaves are thinner than odorata/alba. Also, Parma runners are usually thinner than odorata/alba ones. Also, there's something about the shape of the sinus at the base of the leaf - though it is difficult to describe usefully.

Concerning hardiness: if the Parma violet does include alba blood, bear in mind that alba has a wide range including the southern Mediterranean - so, depending on provence, some temderness might be reasonable.

Very interesting... I think I see what you mean regarding the leaf sinus - it looks a little "deeper" in parma pictures, some look like they even overlap (the basal bit) some. Odoratas look a little "shallower" and broader, appearing less "curly" (not that this terminology makes any sense). I see some difference there. If anyone could figure out how parmas came to be... maybe someone could breed a hardy parma using northern stock! That would be wonderful, even if they didn't have double flowers.

Since parmas rarely set seed, what about hardy double odoratas? I've only read about the existence of some like 'Le Gresley', but there is even less information on those than on parma violets!

I want to thank you both for all of your help... I really have a lot to learn, obviously :) But I am thinking of joining the AVS and maybe trying a few more violet varieties. These things are more addictive than I gave them credit for.

Oh, and I forgot - are there any ideas on whether V. odorata would cross with blanda or canadensis? Blanda has such an incredibly candy-sweet smell, and while canadensis has only a light rosy smell it blooms here almost all growing season! I have absolutely no knowledge regarding the taxonomic breakdown of the genus. Blanda "looks" like it might make a match though, given simultaneous blooming times.

Stefan - That's it - you've got the idea of what I was meaning about the sinuses - phew!

There are a few growers who include double odoratas in their lists - but you'll have to do a little searching.

Roy Coombs ('Violets', 1981) lists about 30 scented double odoratas, including, not surprisingly, several with 'double' in their name - 'Double Blue', 'Double Red', 'Double Rose', 'Double Russian', etc. Others you would not guess to be double going just on their name, eg. 'Patrie', 'King of Violets'.
(Roy is not a commercial grower - I just refer to him here as a soure of names.)

'Comte de Chambourd' is double odorata (white). I have not seen it but it warrants mention here since it looks a little like a Parma. Mark Griffiths ('The Garden' magazine, Feb 2001 pp.88-91) describes it as having "glossy light green foliage", and its flowers lead him to remark that they " resemble a Parma violet, but it is in fact a robustly hardy, sweet violet". I'd like to see it to make my own mind up. Please could anybody reading this forum who has seen it, pass comment. I expect it really is an odorata, especially as Roy Coombs lists it as such, but it shows the imprecision I mentioned earlier in rules for identifying plants.

Crossing odorata with blanda or canadensis:
1. No harm in trying.
2. Yes you may have to cloche one or other species to bring them into flower at the same time.
3. If you succeed in getting seeds and plants from those seeds, the result may be infertile - but that may be of little consequence so long as you can propagate vegetatively (and infertile plants are often vigorous growers - a bonus).
4. I think Vv. canadensis and odorata may be too far apart taxonomically, but I would give V. odorata x blanda a reasonable chance of success.
5. In the past, V. odorata has been crossed with sororia-related species (probably sororia and/or cucullata) - to produce cultivars such as 'Governor Herrick' and 'Mrs. Pinehurst'. So, since V. blanda has certain similarities to V. sororia/cucullata, something of a pertinent precedent has been set.

One of the practical benefits of the V. odorata x sororia crosses was that at least some of them didn't produce runners - so one task of commercial cultivation was eliminated (summer de-runnering). But these crosses had the drawback of being scentless or at any rate with less scent than odoratas. If you could manage to cross odorata with blanda, there is a good chance you could have the benefit of no runners while also having good scent. Go for it!

mike,
thanks for the reference in 'the garden'. the verbal description sounds dangerously "parma" to me! i will seek this image. i saw this violet back in '97 on my first visit to clive and di groves in dorset. the plant he had under that name seemed correct to me and in no way resembled a parma. i collected 3 seeds from his plants. they sometimes produce these and they normally come 'true'. i have done this with double rose and have a very healthy, strong clone as a result which i call victorian double rose. the compte de chambourd seed produced one plant which is single, pink and very compact, petite and odorata. this in turn has produced several lovley bi-colours and forms with coloured centres and pale edges. all very fine, but to return to the point, the original plant, which i believe was true to name, didnt resemble a parma, didnt have glossy foliage and was only barely double. as i say, i'll seek that image!

Mike,

Thanks for the strong encouragement regarding breeding! I was ready and willing, but my only odorata violet is infertile - no useful reproductive organs whatsoever. So I suppose the cross may have to wait another year for me to acquire a fertile odorata. Then again, I don't think the blanda are quite blooming yet, so you never know what I might be able to find. I'd have to be able to to a retailer of sweet violets right quick, and I still have another final exam and no car (just my luck)!

By the way... I think my hypothetical odorata x blanda cross would have runners, because these blanda certainly do. Or is there something kinky about violet sex I don't know yet? ;)

Walking home through downtown Minneapolis, I spotted in one of the raised planters a small colony of (I would assume planted) violets. Not fragrant, ivory white with a sizeable green (!) center; leaves pointed, heart-shaped and seemingly smooth (I didn't check too carefully); the whole plants maybe 8 inches tall and the flowers on stems below the leaves (at least so far - they just began blossoming). It didn't seem that they were propagating by runners, though all of the clumps certainly looked like clones. Anyway, it's just nice to see violets in a municipal planting; they brighten up the dark shade and look very urban chic.

Stefan,

Re runners on V. odorata X blanda: I agree with you - it is likely to have runners: my mistake in my previous posting - sorry.

Re needing odorata pollen: of course, the cleistogamous flowers *do* produce pollen; it is not normally shed from the flower, though. You could try opening such flowers to steal the pollen, though the amount will be small - you'll need a hand lens and the finest paint brush or an individual hair in order to see and manipulate the pollen. It would be most interesting to hear if you try this and if you succeed. Also, I cannot give you any guidance as to the best time (during the cycle of the flower) to obtan such pollen. I have never tried it myself (but I am now tempted...).

A few posts ago in this thread, on 15may02, I made mention of Mark Griffiths' article in 'The Garden' magazine, Feb 2001 pp.88-91. I forgot to mention that this is available on the RHS web site - see link. To see the whole article - including the rest of the photos, you'll have to follow the links 'Recommended violets' and 'Cultivation' at the foot of that page.

Rob: since we talked about 'Comte de Chambord', I'll point you to where you can see the picture and text - http://www.rhs.org.uk/publications/pubs/garden0201/violets_c.asp.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Garden magazine, Feb 2001 pp.88-91

Stefan,
I just found and brought home, a plant of Viola canadensis and a stemmed blue violet (Viola adunca, rostrata or conspersa??) from northern Pennsylvania. The canadensis does have a nice smell even if it's faint. It reminds me of the faint scent of the Confederate violet...which, by the way...I tried crossing with odorata 'Sulphurea' this season. I used the Confederate pollen on four emasculated 'Sulphurea' blooms. None of them set seed. I'm pretty sure my technique is O.K. since I've gotten other crosses to take. Maybe next season, I'll try the reverse cross, in addition to a repeat of that cross using a different odorata.
If I had blanda myself, I'd definitely be trying that cross you mentioned. And don't dismiss canadensis as far as compatibilty with odorata; you never know until you try. I'll have to see how long the canadensis bloom season is here in MD. I'd love to see it bloom all season. Good luck with your crosses. Tom

thanks for that link, mike. i've been on the phone to my friend in tassie asking if she would locate and forward the journal to me...i'll spend a bit more time in that site! regarding compte de chambourd....well, that all important foliage is not included in the pic. the bloom seems to be only just double which could be right for that violet. the clean white with greenish centre sounds dangerously like swanley white. c.d.c has pinkish buds opening to a none too pure white flower. i cant say that the (obvious) distinction between parmas and double hardies has been demonstrated in this article. in all fairness, that was not the intention of the author!! thanks again for the link, mike. i look forward to reading that piece again more closely and browsing through the rhs pages...

Violet 'Comte de Chambord'.

I believe there is a great danger that stocks of this violet are becoming wrongly described and labelled in the UK as plants are sometimes quite different to those I obtained from the successors to the Zambras at the Windward Violet Nurseries, Holcombe, Devon in about 1964. I sold runners of this cultivar in strictly limited numbers (five) per customer until 1974 from my former nursery in Winchester, Hampshire, those customers being in the UK only.

Assuming the plants supplied to me were correctly labelled (and I believe they were), 'Comte de Chambord' should have dark green medium size leaves which are not glossy. The flower buds should be a deep almost metallic violet colour and the flowers by the time they are fully out will have lightened considerably (thus the other name 'French Grey' - not to be confused with the single odorata with the same name). The plants had neither glossy light green foliage nor pure white nor greenish white flowers.

Unlike 'Double Rose' acquired from the same source, I never observed seed being produced. The Windward 'Comte de Chambord' was fully hardy, quite vigourous and produced very large fully double flowers often too heavy for the medium length stems and it clearly was an odorata rather than a Parma cultivar.

Incidentially this description of 'Comte de Chambord' seems the same as Dr Judyth A Macleod's description in her Book of Sweet Violets published in Australia in 1983.

Dear Roy,

May I wish you a very warm welcome on this forum.
I, and I am sure many others, will be delighted to know you are amongst us!
Your preceding posting re 'Comte de Chambord' pressages what valuable insights and perspectives you might bring to this little community. Of course, you are equally welcome to post quips, corrections and conundra; erudition is not mandatory :)

All the best, and Happy Easter,
Mike

Dear folks,

Seing this old - but very interesting posting - coming back on top of the list, I'm happy to be able to supply a picture of the parma Marie Louise. ( I had none last year and this pic is due to my friend Denis).

Sorry Roy, I know it shouldn't be called Marie Louise ( ref to your publications) but it is so common now..)

Hope it helps

Here is a link that might be useful: