Sorry, I can't offer any help with your questions, but I am curious (just about to remodel my kitchen), what aspects or features of the Miele DWs do you like? Are they hands-down better than a Bosch, for example? I've heard other good comments about them, but nothing really helpful. Hope you don't mind the inquiry. THANKS!

On the fridge, as far as I know, it is a rebranded version of Bosch, much like Thermador and Gaggenau (although these are owned by the same companies). So unless you something about them (which given the fact that they fit flush to cabinet, there is no external benefit), you may want to look at these others which have been out.

As to speed oven, I hear it can be used as a MW and we were going to buy them. But then read all the stories about how hard they are to clean (yes, some say it is easy), decided on a regular microwave. There are a ton of threads on it here so just do a search and read for yourself.

On DW, we are looking at them too. Seems like Optima is the baseline and then you go from there. Our target is the Excella (sp?) unit but donÂt quite remember why :).

As to Dacor, we have one now and it works pretty well. Consumer Reports rated it better on capacity relative to Miele. But given the service grief we have had on it (3 repairs in 6 years I think), we are going with Gaggenau. We love the Miele also but we are going with Gaggenau stem/combi oven and need the main oven to match (we couldn't see much use in steam-only Miele for our type of cooking). And we like the rotisserie better in Gaggnenau (single larger unit rather than split). We hear performance is the same with both though (i.e. excellent).

Note that we don't own any of this stuff yet :). So take this as the summary of our research more than anything else.

amrin, which fridge would you go with? I want just a regular one 33-36 w, I'd get one to panel if i could find a reasonable one. Going nuts with all these decisions.

cantmakeadecision:Appliance sales people here in London (ontario, canada), and some spots in Toronto love the Dacor. I am scared off by what I read here. I know that people say that the higher end are more reliable, but they are about as costly as Miele here and I think Miele is more reliable. I am going to look at Fisher paykel, Ge monogram and Miele double ovens, as well.I honestly don't have a clue as to how to decide about anything. It's taking over my life!!

Judy

On the Miele dishwashers, I think La Perla and Excella are both top of the line. Next down is the Optima. Next down in the Diamante, then Inspira, then Advanta. This is how they are listed in the Dec. 2007 sales brochure.

ginny

I have a Miele oven and always recommend it. If you don't mind doing a search, there are several threads which provide many detailed discussions. I also recommend a search on Dacor threads.

On DWs, folks on the forum tend to have Optimas, Excellas and La Perlas. They all have the silverware tray, which most everyone loves and agrees is a super feature. From there it depends on things like what you want in terms of wash cycles, door readouts and racking. If you go on the mieleusa website and read carefully, the dw details are all there though I must admit it's complex and takes some study (at least it did for me).

The fridge is similar to others but has many improvements. Another fridge people here like a lot is Liebherr. Less expensive and reliable.

I'm someone with a different brand of microwave under my single Miele oven. It looks just fine -- no complaints. I considered replacing it with a steam oven when I had the opportunity but couldn't justify the use for us vs cost.

Judy, our current pick is Bosch/Themador/Gaggenau (all made by Bosch). We are getting two "columns" each 30 inches. I am not sure you would want to follow our footsteps though as these are quite pricey. :)

As noted, Liebherr is another favorite. It was on our list but once we looked at it more, we were not too fond of their freezer drawer design. They lack proper rollers so they are bound to be harder to open and close once fully loaded than the Bosch. They also would not allow easy storage of big items as the larger freezer above (they only come in 24 inch). We also didn't quite like the design of the shelves from the point of view of adjustability and little lip that they sit on. All personal things that you want to look at to see if they matter to you or not.

We own a subzero in our current house (48") and while we looked at their side-by-side, it was a lot more money and is being replaced in September. So we didn't want to go with it.

Amirm,

The 2 30" columns are more expensive than a 48 Sub? How do you like your your 48 Sub.

You can always get a Thermador Freedom line 30" refrigerator and the Freedom 18" freezer. Now you have 48" that looks far better than a Sub Zero and since the condenser is in the bottom and invisible, you don't have to bend down so low to get items on the bottom shelves. Also the Thermador freezers have a great internal ice makingmachine that dumps the ice into a big tray. You can run as many glasses you want into the tray to get as much ice as you want and it takes far less time than waiting for the ice to come out of any external dispenser.

I bought a Thermador Freedom 30" refrigerator and a Thermador Freedom 24" freezer and I couldn't be happier with the looks and the perfomance. In my wet bar area I put a Scotsman icemaker for thoseextremely raretimes that I have a very large group over for entertainment.

Greg

Thermador makes a great triple stack of ovens in both the Masterpiece and Pro series. They are available with either a standard microwave on top or a microwave with convection. I took the standard as it has a much bigger internal area and I never use convection in a microwave. I boughtthe Masterpiece triple stack: MEMW301ES and it has been working like a charm--besides it looks great.

The Thermador convection oven is the largest 30" on the market, in either Masterpiece or Pro. On the bottom is the warming drawer--also in Masterpiece or Pro series.

I bought the top of the line Thermador dishwasher(DWHD94EP), which is made by Bosch with a couple of extra Thermador flourishes.
The top of the line Bosch's and Thermador are the quietest on the market. And since the Euro dishwashers don't have masticators, Insinkerator makes an inexpensive dishwasher to garbage disposal connection to take care of any large food pieces. I also bought the Insinkerator Evolution Excel 1 HP which is by far the quietest disposal I've experienced. Since most Euro dishwashers don't have heating rods you generally have more room for dishes, glasses, and whatnot.

I had thought of going with Miele, but I wasn't happy with the lack of a microwave and wasn't too happy with how the oven works, never mind the higher prices for every appliance. The one Miele appliance I really liked was the new induction cooktop, which has about every featureset avaialable and while their are some brands that are a bit more powerful, it certainly is more powerful than any Pro-style gas rangetop.

Greg

Wow, thanks for all your words of wisdom! I can't say I'm less confused though! Like you said, Judy, this is taking over my life!

Greg, what makes the Thermador Freedom look better?

Searching 2008 - I have a Bosch now. It's fine, but I find it to be quite small inside and I've had a few problems with it. Nothing major, just annoying little things. It's quiet. I've heard the Miele's are quieter and more reliable. I think I'll get the Optimas.

I really appreciate the feedback and would still love to hear opinions!

Thanks!

"The 2 30" columns are more expensive than a 48 Sub? How do you like your your 48 Sub."

Our 48 is a subzero and our satisfaction is just OK. It has broken 3+ times in 6-7 years. Came with drawers that would not work properly. And the freezer is too small width wise.

And yes, two 30 inch units cost an arm and a leg. In Bosch, they are in $8K range. In Thermador in $9K range and clock close to $10K in Gaggenau version.

We priced the dual Subzero 36 and it was at $11K and it is due to be replaced in the fall. So we have passed on it.

Greg, thanks for the feedback on the Thermado unit. Good to see someone else liking them as they are so new...

Amir

As far as ovens go, we have been very happy w/the Miele and there are many positive threads here relating to the miele. I cannot comment on the Dacor as we did not look into it after reading several negative threads here.
Also we were gong to move forward on the speed oven, but there was a thread here where many people complained it was almost impossible to clean. We wound up getting one of the lift doors from miele and put a m/w behind it. The lift door was way overpriced at $900 but that plus a $250 m/w was less than half the price of the speed oven.
For the d/w, we also went w/the miele optima and hve been very pleased w/it. I thought I would hate the cutlery tray, but it makes unloading the cutlery a breeze.

gatorguy,

Thanks for your opinions and thoughts. I'll check out a search on the speed oven. I hadn't heard about the cleaning issue. I saw the lift door at the showroom and thought that might be a great solution, but when I heard $900 I about died! You're right though, that it with a microwave is still better than the speed oven.

I'm also leaning toward the Optima. I just don't think I'd use all those wash cycles on the others.

What kind of fridge do you have?

We went w/the KA architect II series 48" side by side in stainless. I was considering the thermador, as we used them for the range top, but I got a good price on the KA which was $2000 less than the thermador columns or s x s. I also thought the shelves on the KA came out further than the thermador, and there was more useable space on the shelves. And there are so many mixed opinions on the subzeros. Some people here swear by them, and others have nothing but problems.

Regarding the Miele DW; La Perla, Excella,and Optima are the quietest. Their ratings are Q1 - Q5 with Q5 being the quietest (La Perla). We are planning on purchasing the Miele
Optima with a Q3 rating. However, Greg says that Thermador and Bosch are the quietest. Oskibabu, do you know from experience that those are quieter than Miele? The salespeople all recommended the Miele. Thanks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele

Just my 2 cents, but I cant imagine how quiet the excella and LaPerla are, as there are many times I have to check to see if the optima is running. Maybe I just have low expectations... Either way if thermador or bosch are close to or more quiet than the miele, than you will easily be able to have a normal conversation standing around a running dw and not be bothered by it in any way.

For the DW, I just got the booklet that describes each model in detail. It has a chart that specifically tells which extra features you get as you continue to go up the food chain. You need to think about what you need a dw to do, then decided which features are most important for your needs. Do you need a cycle just for baked on cheese? Do you wash fine china in the dw, or do you which you could? Do you want your control panel to be so high tech that your MIL will never be able to run the dw?

I haven't purchased one yet, but I'm totally sold on the Miele DWs.

The is one other thing to consider. The higher up models do have more cycles but some of these cycles use less water, use lower water temperatures and still clean, and take less time. Some of these models also let you remove the middle rack so you can wash only in the bottom of the DW...good for tall pans and such.

The control panel is easy to use. You hold the scroll button to move to the cycle you want, you push a button to select it, you pick any extra options that cycle has by pushing the button next to that option, you press start. If you have a model that has a visible screen display during the cycle the DW will communicate to you in sentences and words instead of lights or indicators.

I am leery of companies that use quiet levels for dishwashers and not actual decibel numbers. Afterall, Quiet Level 1 or 5 can mean anything in decibels. The Bosch family of dishwashers lists the noise levels in decibels (the exact and proper way)--and the Thermadors and Gaggenaus are mostly designed by Bosch (as Bosch/Siemens bought them), and except for a few design flourishes and sometimes more insulation the top level Thermador (9 cycle)is very quiet (44 db)and can be bought at around $1600. The 6 cycle Thermador (46 dbs) can be bought around $1,100.

Most Miele's are far more expensive, particularly those with Quiet levels of 4 or 5--whatever that means.

Bosch's always get great ratings in CR and for some reason Miele's don't. Maybe they need repair more often and/or the price per performance ratio is a bit outlandish.

Also you need to add salt as a water softening agent in most Miele's, while other dishwashers don't require that. Any good enzyme active detergent should do a great job, aong with putting Jet Dry in the crew off chamber that gradually releases some Jet Dry during sinal rinse to get proper sheeting action so there are no spots.

That said, almost every dishwasher I have ever seen require some hand drying whther the DW has heat rods or not, as plastic doesn't hold heat well and any crevices will hold water. I put them on the side after washing and tamp them down a few times and dry the rest with a paper towel and voila! No big deal.

Greg

"I am leery of companies that use quiet levels for dishwashers and not actual decibel numbers. Afterall, Quiet Level 1 or 5 can mean anything in decibels."

That is true in general but not in the specific. db ratings are only of value if there are standardized measurement processes. I am not aware of any here. So if one measures it at a different distance than the other, then the numbers or worse than not having them because they can lead to confusion.

Also, the actual frequency of the noise has a lot to do with how annoying it is. A low-level high pitch whine is bound to be much more annoying than a low level hum. And a constant one is preferable to one that comes and goes -- a common occurance in dishwasers.

So while your point is well taken, I am afraid this industry will never get to the point of objective measurements useful for this puprose.

As to praise for Bosch, well, we have one and my wife has never liked it and actually preference the American unit at half the price. So this time around, we are going to get a Miele. Maybe it will also be bad and we have to go and get an American unit I don't know. But I do know that Bosch is quiet but without drying properly, my wife will always complain about it :).

The Q5 rating is 42 db

Here goes my thoughts after having my kitchen for a year.
I have a Dacor w/o as I thought it would look better with the Gagg Combi than the Miele Master Chef and I thought I needed a 30" wall oven (At the time Gagg only made a 27" oven.) My Dacor is fine, but I would have been fine with the Gagg and the side opening door is a great feature. I love, love, love my Gagg combi convection/steam oven and we use it much more than the big Dacor. Friends have the Miele and say it is wonderful.
I have a SZ 30" ref/freezer plus an 18" Thermador Freedom Tower freezer with ice and water in the door. The Thermador looks better, but I have had no trouble with either. I wish my fridge was 36" though. The Thermador's ice dispenser is a little wild! It spits ice more than dispensing it.
Finally, the Miele D/W. I can't remeber what model as the models changed during my construction process, but it is second from the top of the line. It has the cutlery tray and is in fact very quiet. My water is soft enough I don't need to add salt and the food grinding issue is IMHOP an non starter. Every few months I check the filter and hardly ever find anything. I find that every once in a while it develops an bad odor if I don't run it almost every day. It doesn't dry everything and I hate and I mean HATE, the way it loads. Honestly, I think I should have saved some money and gotten a Kitchenaid!
I also have a Dacor warming drawer mounted under the wall oven and I would say that although I use it a lot, that location is not good. It shoud be right under the counter somewhere near your cooking surfaces.
I have SZ refrigerator drawers and they are great.
I hope this was helpful.
Jillypie

the salt is used for deteregent efficiency - hard water affects the ability of the deteregent to do its job.

The harder the water, the more deteregent you need to clean

In any case you still need jet dry

The salt is used to soften the water to the correct point.
There are threads on this forum describing the problems that occur from hard water in DW. There are also products that people use to clean their DW to remove deposits created by hard water.

The older versions of Miele DW used a softener that you had to preset for the hardness. The newer models detect the hardness of your incoming water for each fill and use a proportional system that allows it to mix soft water with your incoming water so that it is always mixed the to correct parameter, so you should use less detergent than you normally use and you should not follow the instructions on the box that say "FILL ALL CUPS COMPLETELY". If your water does not need to be softened you don't need to add salt and the DW will not ask for it.

Water that is too soft in combination with heat and detergent will speed up the process of glass etching. The mid and upper end Miele models contain programs that use a very low temperature for glass items to help reduce etching. The user manual labels these "glass care" programs. Even though low temps are used 104F-118F and they generally take less time, these programs can clean an entire normal soiled load.

Jerrod6, what would a Q4 be equivalent to in DB?

I think there is a 2db difference in each Q rating so that would be 44.

Jillypie, thanks for the nice feedback. I had not thought about combining fridge brands. And like you, my wife keeps missing the old Kitchaid that the Bosch replaced. We were hoping Miele would do the job but based on your feedback, maybe not.

We've had KitchenAid DW (installed 2 years ago in former house) and now Miele. KitchenAid did a much better job than the JennAir/Maytag it replaced, but Miele is the best we've ever used.

THE COLUMNS ARE BUILT IN TURKEY BSH OWNS THRMDR AND GAG\ MIELE WILL BE SHARING THIS FACTORY AND WILL PRODUCE A MIELE (AS IN SHEILA)FRIG LINE. AS WITH "ALL" MIELE APPLIANCES WILL BE BUILT BY THE MIELE "FAMILY" SHOULD BE TOP OF THE LINE