I have been reading this forum about dishwashers for quite a while. There are many threads about Bosch. I suggest you do a search here and get your answers. I am convinced that the computers used to make them Energy Star efficient are causing cleaning problems for some folks. I would choose a model that does not comply for that reason.

Isn't Bosch the only one of those brands that's made in the USA? In case you care...

At a house I work at they have a Bosch and the dishes are always wet. Especially all plastic items. Emptying the DW requires spreading dishes out all over the kitchen. I believe that the Kitchenaid DW has a heat element that dries the dishes. Bosch and Miele do not. Also I find that the Bosch takes about 3 hours to run through its cleaning cycle.

Coincidentally, I just came back from my appliance dealer and we were looking at two versions of Bosch that he carries -- US made and German made (price being the differential). The German models are apparently of the 'Bosch quality' that people were accustomed to, the US version less so (with price differential to match). I have no idea if this is valid or not, of course.

I do the "door thunk test" first. Go to Lowes which as a lot of models/brands..and open and close the doors. See if they sound solid or cheap. Then look at the inside and the number of water sprayers, cheap plastic or more heavy duty, then read the appliance repair blogs for the model you might like. I bought a Kitchen Aid that went 4 years without a failure, then the circuit board failed, but covered under the extended warranty from Lowes. Then another small problem six months later that was also covered. After that, no problem which is pretty good. I would recommend whatever brand you get look at the extended warranty. It is a "wet/dry" product so it will fail eventually. I like the also bought a Maytag "Super Quiet" 8 years ago for a rental unit and it has zero problems and is very quiet. I also liked the delay feature so I could run it at night after the kids go to bed. It is getting towards the new model year and I snagged that KA off the show room floor for 600 bucks, 400 dollar discount, because they were going to put out the new model.

I believe that the Kitchenaid DW has a heat element that dries the dishes. Bosch and Miele do not. Also I find that the Bosch takes about 3 hours to run through its cleaning cycle.

Bosch uses a heat element to dry.

Miele uses a vented system that requires rinse aid.

Bosch is the most water efficient with Miele a close second. The more efficient the longer it takes to run a cycle.

I think in the real world,not in government agency/lab conditons Miele is more efficient the majority of the time.

Deeageaux, a question about rinse aid. We typically run our DW in the evening (currently a KA) without heated drying, then crack it open overnight to let it evaporate. It's generally fine the next day or so, though I've never measured. Is rinse aid *mandatory* on some of these machines (like high octane fuel on premium cars) or is it just a suggestion for quicker drying? We've never used rinse aid and live in an area of very soft water, so I don't think spotting is generally an issue.

To the OP: We just had our 9 y.o. German-made Bosch SHU53 carted away and replaced with a Miele. We were very happy with the Bosch but its control panel went wonky last month and we didn't want to spend $hundreds to prolong the life of a 9 y.o. appliance (there were other things that needed attention as well). It was quiet, stylish, mostly reliable, and very energy efficient over its life. It also did its job quite well. But its time had come.

There is no question that our new Miele is quieter and better at cleaning than our old Bosch and the few plastic items we have do seem to be somewhat dryer at the end of the cycle. We do miss some features (such as countdown timer) on the Bosch but these weren't deal killers for us.

As other posters have said, these two manufacturers (Bosch and Miele) do not use a heat element to dry. The methods they use to dry dishes mean significantly lower energy consumption but - for the Bosch in particular - plastic items do not dry well. Conversely, it is safe to put those plastics anywhere in the dishwasher (as there's no exposed heating element to melt them). During our 9+ years with the Bosch, we did not consider this a problem whatsoever but plastics are not a particular mainstay of our kitchen.

Is rinse aid *mandatory* on some of these machines (like high octane fuel on premium cars) or is it just a suggestion for quicker drying? We've never used rinse aid and live in an area of very soft water, so I don't think spotting is generally an issue.

For normal DW drying in Miele rinse aid is mandatory.

If you want to dry the old fashioned way, overnight evaporation I think you will be fine without rinse aid. Particulary so with soft water. Never done it so can't say with 100% certainty.

I have a new Bosch and one of my requirements, when I was
looking for a dishwasher was the sound factor. The print
literature on my Bosch says that it is "virtually silent."
Mine is anything but that. Bosch sent two different service
guys to my house and they both told me that my machine
is noisy, but I have to accept it, because Bosch will do
nothing about it, and they won't. I know a lot of owners of
older Bosch machines rave about how quiet they are, but
the newer machines are not. Mine is so loud that I can hear it all the way into the bedroom. The stainless steel front is so flimsy, that you can push it in with your fingers. According to Bosch, this is standard for their stainless steel models. I regret buying this expensive piece of crap. Buy the Miehle.

ajk5 most of the DW made these days meet your criteria as you wrote in your opening post. Miele, Asko, Bosch and Thermador are all the same size, which is slightly smaller compared to KA, Whirlpool etc. I don't know the size of Fagor Sunbeam and many others.

Read other posts by rayrose and you may conclude he does not sound like a winner. Unable to get satisfaction about anything he bought.

Thanks for your input everyone. I appreciate the information. Decided against the Bosch. I need the larger tubs of the American made models and don't want wet dishes/plastics. The kids unload and will not dry these, but that's another issue. Narrowed to Kitchen Aid or GE Profile which has a stemware rack on top rack and adjustable racks and tines. Any suggestions on models of these brands that clean reliably. Thanks!

This is timely for me as I'm unexpectedly searching for a new DW.

I'll be staying FAR FAR away from GE Profile. Last night our 5 year old Profile began burning! We had just gone to bed when we smelled a horrible smell all the way in the back of our house. Ran out to the kitchen to find hazy smoke and an awful smell with the dishwasher superhot, unresponsive to shutting down, and reading 75 minutes to go on a 54 minute cycle that had been started about 2 hours earlier. We flipped the breaker and the plug was hot to the touch when we pulled it out of the wall.

When we hauled it out this morning, my husband took the front panel off and the control module was a melted batch of goop. The wires were charred and melted plastic everywhere..... awful! Our house is fine, but almost 24 hours later stlll smells putrid.

After researching this morning, I couldn't believe the number of GE's that have overheated and begun to melt.... it is truly amazing to read the reports of people that have been awakened by the smell of burning plastic. Google GE dishwasher fire and you'll be shocked. They recalled 2.5 million of them in 2007 but ours wasn't part of that recall.

Still trying to decide what to get, but now that I know this isn't an isolated incident, it won't be another GE. 5 years ago I paid 750.00 for this unit.... that is almost 150.00/year .... pitiful!

GBSIM - WOW!! I had heard of dishwashers catching fire but didn't realize they were GE. Won't be doing that. Thanks so much for letting me know. Glad there was no damage to your home. How about Whirlpool???

Read davidro1's other posts and you will find that he is a service tech for Bosch and is only concerned about business that he might lose from negative comments about
Bosch. Please read my other posts and you will see that he is totally wrong and that he always defends Bosch from any Bosch owner who has had a bad experience with their appliance. BTW I also own a Bosch convection wall oven, with which I am totally pleased. It's the dishwasher that's a piece of crap.

I've had nothing but bad luck with GE in any appliance. Had a GE dw - it was a POS.

ajk5 - FWIW, we've chosen to go with the KA KUDS40 model with front controls. We were seriously considering a 70 model (41db v 51 for the 40). Our sales guy said the 70 is quieter as it does not have the food chopper. Both fit in the budget, but the 40 is less expensive. (Can't say cheap these days when talking about appliances!) Besides, 51's supposed to be good too, and the quiet issue is not huge to us. Looks like a KA single drawer at the other end of the kitchen at the coffee/drink station. We didn't give too much consideration to the other brands.

Anyone else go for a 40 over a 70 or vise versa? (It's not too late for us to change if there's a good reason!)

Mike

ajk5 - FWIW, we've chosen to go with the KA KUDS40 model with front controls. We were seriously considering a 70 model (41db v 51 for the 40). Our sales guy said the 70 is quieter as it does not have the food chopper. Both fit in the budget, but the 40 is less expensive. (Can't say cheap these days when talking about appliances!) Besides, 51's supposed to be good too, and the quiet issue is not huge to us. Looks like a KA single drawer at the other end of the kitchen at the coffee/drink station. We didn't give too much consideration to the other brands.

Anyone else go for a 40 over a 70 or vise versa? (It's not too late for us to change if there's a good reason!)

Mike

"Bosch uses a heat element to dry. "

Doesn't Bosch use condensation to dry? they do not have a heat element from what I have read and heard from salesmen.
I am confused as to why it conserves energy by running longer. It seems to me it would be an equalizer. But I'm not an authority.

Mike- I just ordered the KUD50 on saturday only because of the cutlery rack. just saying. I was totally prepared to buy the Miele but they lost me with the drying. I hope I made the right choice. My 16 year old KA has not been problem at all. Good luck with yours!

Mike - I was also looking at the kitchenaid and couldn't decide which one. I don't care so much about the quiet either, I just want something that cleans well and dries well. Did you make a decision yet?

"Doesn't Bosch use condensation to dry? they do not have a heat element from what I have read and heard from salesmen.
I am confused as to why it conserves energy by running longer. It seems to me it would be an equalizer. But I'm not an authority."

From Bosch Appliances site

Safety

-AquaStop�

Plus 4-Part Leak Protection Works 24/7

Sanitize Option eliminates bacteria and enhances drying results

Concealed Heating Element - No Melting of Plastics

SaniDry�

Hygienic Condensation Drying

On topic two. I am no mechanical engineer I just know that is the case. My theory is that it runs longer but with much less power. Going 100 miles at 10mph vs going 100 miles at 100mph takes less energy.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bosch Site