I'm planning on buying the Thermador. The inside seems sturdier to me than the Sub-Zero and I like the flush, integrated look. My appliance dealer says they have had them for one year, so they are not that new. I have not enquired about installation yet. Hopefully, that is not an issue.

I am torn like you. Wife likes SZ. I like Thermador. Thermador is relatively new, but salesman says no reported problems yet. SZ is in its last year of this model run (at least the 600 series). Therm. seems to integrate better. After looking at install video, it didn't seem too different from what I would expect for anything.

Bottom line: SZ is old reliable; Thermador is new and hot, but maybe some risk.

BTW, if you like the Thermador, check the Gaggenau. Same fridge guts, except it has a stainless steel interior and glass shelves. It's maybe $300 more for the 36" BF. Salesman tells me the warranty is longer, but haven't verified that.

I had mixed feelings at best about every Subzero we looked at. I have the Thermador pair and love them.

There is no refrigerator and freezer with a worse repair record than Sub Zero according to Consumer Reports. As the Bosch/Siemens Group owns Thermador now and Gaggenau, the Thermador Freedom line is based on the Bosch design. It is far better looking and for slightly more money seems to give you better feature sets.

I know two people that installed their own Freedom line refrigerators and freezers and told me as long as you follow the writen directions (which are very well written) carefully--there are no problems--it is just time consuming. In most cities there are more than one Thermador dealers. If you talk to the manager privately you should be able to get a 10% discount with free installation--if not always be prepared to walk. A company that advertises a lot online just had a sale on Thermador with a 10% discount and free shipping. But I believe it ended last night. But it indicates there is room for negotiations. But these negotiations are best done in private with the manager. There is nothing a store manager hates so much as a public negotiation display with customers around--you won't get anything in that situation.

Greg

no qu that Thermador is new and good looking. Am considering for country cottage replacement install. But in NYC we r immensely happy with SZ all refrig which works like a charm ~15yrs. (in those days 500 series?) we have a lower-class freezer a few feet away hidden in a pantry... budget tightening 14 yrs back. Both appliances r used alot. We eat at home plenty. I love the 4 crisper drawers plus the cheese type drawer and the continuous surface shelves of the SZ and easy to clean. Following this thread to decide how good the Therm is. No svc probs with SZ, just have to remember to vacuum the grates once in 5 yrs!

I am trying to make the same exact decision. Scale wise the 27" SZ's work a bit better for me, but I'm having a hard time justifying the nearly 25% difference in price.
The SZ's are coming in at $10,208 and the Thermadors at $7798. (Pre-negotiated, and my gut tells me there is more negotiating room with the Thermadors --maybe not).

Can someone out there help me justify why one would spend that much more for SZ's when their track record is what I would call somewhat iffy, yet the Thermador doesn't even have a track record yet. I feel like it's a big gamble either way.... would love insight on warranty, follow up customer service, etc. for either company.

Thanks so much!

I work in a High-End store in New York. We are one of the larger deals of Sub-Zero and I can tell you from experience that consumer reports findings don't seem to reflect what we see here. We sell in uperwards of 300 Sub's a year with the number of problems numbers in the 10-20 per year being more than a light bulb or icemaker(hey everyones icemaker is crappy) They do require maintenance in the form of cleaning the coils out because of the layout but otherwise are excellent units.

on the thermador, I like the company a lot but I would wait for the Miele branded units to come out(Same factory, different design) We have had a few major issues with the new thermador units, specifically with the dispenser

btw: when i checked out the interior space on the narrow Thermador freezer column, the useable cubic ft was disappointing. Just sharing this in case that matters... you might want to look at the actual interior useable space of each, esp freezers.
good luck. let us know what you decide

I would never get the Freedom line Thermadors in stainless with an ice dispenser. Why ruin the beautiful sleek looks of the freezer and refrigerator with an out of door ice dispenser. Even with my older Amana I almost never used the dispenser as I would swipe my glass through the inside ice bucket. The Thermador also has an open ice bucket, so why pay extra for a dispenser? Most of the Sub Zero's don't have external dispensers either and I never met anyone with a SZ that had one.

Greg

Joboxes, thanks for your insight. Do you know are the Mieles that are coming out going to be fully integrated as well? What is the timing and is there any website that is previewing what is to come?
Thanks!

dl - don't hold your breath on the Miele fridges. The Germans are notorious for touting new appliances only to see them show up in country years after the salesweasels put out the glossy pics and create the buzz. Their microwave was at least five years to arrive here after it was told to me by a regional mgr. that it was here late this year. Based on prior experience the earliest you'll see it would be xmas...........next year.

Bicoastal, I have the smallest freezer column (18") and the space is good and very usable. It holds more and better organized than the freezer of any other fridge we've had or of any I remember looking at in a comparable size. We're very happy with it. However, DH saw the same one with a dispenser -- the one we originally planned on getting, and we decided not to get it because the ice maker and dispenser take up so much of the room inside.

miele is claiming mid 08 for arrival and they are already in pre production because it is the same plant as the thermador and gaggenau branded product. They are retooling some things like the beltline on the bottom freezers and installing a remote access port for future use in servicing the unit(they claim they will eventually be able to schedule a service call before you know the unit is having an issue, the ports already are installed on their new w4840 washers awaiting the system to support it)

oh and the miele will be just like the thermadors but with a simplified H bracket style install for paneling. So all other generic specs are the same...they share moldings and certain sealed system hardware with the thermador/gaggenau/bosch

So those of you in the business of selling appliances, would you recommend to a customer that he/she spend the extra 25% for the SubZero product? If so, is that based on your experience with repairs/customer service or something else? Thanks - this one has been a real struggle for me! Unfortunately, I won't be able to wait for the Miele, so it's SZ, Bosch, or Thermador.

as a manager I almost always recommend SZ because of experience...my store does a huge number of sub and we constantly have customers with 20-25 year old sub's replacing them...they are excellent units despite CR's insistence otherwise. That being said I do believe Bosch/Thermador is an excellent company and while we simply dont have the data to back up the quality of the product from initial impressions and knowing the company as a whole I wouldn't hesitate from recommending the thermador because of the unique configuration and price advantage...so in short if the money is THAT big of a deal buy the thermador and rest assured that if you do have an issue you have a massive and responsible company to back your product

Between the two brands, I'd pick the one that seems to work best for you -- has the best use of space, details that look best to you, etc.

As I said, I have the Thermador and love the columns. I have no hesitation recommending them. For me, SZ was not only more $$, but the arrangements didn't work. Anything we might have considered had awkward ice issues (down near the floor -- not good if you live in TX, use a lot of ice, are tall and have a bad neck and a lot of bending makes it worse). If SZ has better features for you, go for it. If not, I wouldn't spend more for them simply because the Thermador hasn't been around as long.

I love my Thermador columns. They have been in for about 3 months now. I have the smallest freezer size- 18". When it went in I was really shocked at the size and we decided we would probably need to buy a backup freezer for the basement. Surprisingly, it's no problem since the 18' freezer space is really well designed. We aren't planning to get the second freezer now. I am always surprised at how everything just keeps fitting into it. Also, it's easy to see where everything is. The freezer drawers with full extension are great, and very practical. All the space is designed to be used. There are even slots for frozen juice cans next to the ice maker.

When shopping, I was reluctant to go Sub Zero. I didn't want a big snob statement. I wasn't impressed by the interior layout of the SZ units. I disliked the big vent at the top.
The Thermador is really well designed in terms of space planning, and it's beautiful too. While I made lots of jokes about the electronic moving top shelf in the fridge, I realize I use the feature often. Best of all, I like that the food is up higher in the Thermador- I am short, but I can reach everything. This is in contrast to many other models, where there are vents up top, and the food goes much lower to the ground- more bending. With all the glass shelves, the cabinet depth and the full extension drawers, I can always see all the food. So far I don't have food getting buried and forgotten and nasty.

sleepy - be fair now. Compare apples to apples. Thermador has fridges with the vents showing on top too. SZ has the 700 series which really created the fully integrated fridge market here about 15 years ago. Those have no vents showing either and is what T'dor is shooting for.

The thermadors with the vents on top are teh older, kitchenaid-built models, no?

Oh, and apparently one of the salesmen (actually, two at two different places) gave me misinformation about the 700 series having only one compressor.

I have the Thermador 18" freezer with dispenser and the 30" fridge. Fridge space is plenty for my family of 3 (and would be find for a much larger family. Dispenser does take up a lot of space, making the freezer a bit tight. I used to keep grains in there (no bugs), as well as nuts (don't go rancid), but I just moved them into air-tight, bug-proof containers, and now I have enough room, even with a "selection" of ice cream ;) .

I don't love the look of the dispenser (although I slimmed it up by not using the 3/4" bezel, reducing its size by 1.5" in each dimension). I *do* love the ice water. It is ice cold from the first drop, which my previous Frigidaire and Amana(?) were not. I actually stopped using ice much because the water is so cold.

The dispenser does sometimes clog up with ice cubes (easily fixed, but annoying). And the crushed ice seems to stick in the chute. I don't use crushed ice, so no biggie to me.

It does have the option to aggetate the ice, so the icy is always nice and loose.

The installation is very, very flush. For some reason, it looked better than the SZ or Leibherr that I saw on display. My doors go floor-to-ceiling. If it weren't for the dispenser, you would just think it was a big cabinet.

Also, didn't see noted here, but SZ are not equipped w/ a filter. You'll have to select and plumb an external water filter for SZ. Unless maybe you live in an area w/ perfect water. We have very hard water & filter-less is not an option.

Heimert is correct -- the older style sxs models built by KA have a top panel. Inlike some of the slotted vents, the Thermador has an arched top and is probably the best looking of any standard (top vent) models I saw. The Freedom Series units do not have top vents.

To follow up -- the vents are on the bottom of the new freedom columns. If you look at the installation instructions you can see them clearly in the kickplate area. The way the panels work is that they hang down over the vent, but there's space between the panel and the vent holes so that the air blows out and down beneath the bottom of the panel (your wood or their stainless steel)

Folks.......my point was to compare like products. The SZ 700 seires has concealed bottom vents too, and have for 15 years. This is pretty much the standard for all fully integrated fridges.

I just researched to make the same decision. However, I was deciding between the subzeros and the thermador 36".We are changing this unit out when we redo our kitchen in a few months.
I thought that we were definitely going with the Thermador.
Two things changed that decision. First, my husband went back with me to look at the unit- it is truly beautiful- But space wise in the 36 inch, the refrigerator was smaller than the subzero, and the top shelves on the door were unusally high and a bit awkward to use the upper shelves on the door. So, he did not want that unit.
Second, my repair man ( a friend) told me to keep away from the thermadors- he's seen issues that take a long time to get resolved. My friend just had 2 columns installed- by a professional - one column is now slightly dented!!
So, I am back to the subzero old model because the new integrated 36 inch model has less refrigerator space than the 650 model.

I think the use of space inside the Thermadors is wonderful, but I also like the height of it. I have alsways hated having to dig in drawers at the bottom that you can hardly see or reach into. None of those issues with a Thermador, and I am thrilled about that. SZ may work better for you, but make sure you are considering actual use issues and not manipulated manufacturer's numbers for square footage or something (I don't know what your comparison is other than the upper door storage -- which is perfect for butter, margarine, a couple of spipce bottles that require chilling -- all things we don't pull out that often.

Now, as for the dent, surely you can't blame the installer's problem on Thermador. I actually think that they way Thermador ships the stainless panels separately from the fridge box is most likely to result in fewer dents -- which seems to ba the most common problem with new stainles fridges of any type, built-in or freestanding. They are shipped separately and stay protected until the installation, so they really shouldn't be subject to denting unless they are mishandled. That sounds like a reason to make sure you have a different installer, not to avoid the fridge.

lascatx, first of, i do blame the installer for the dent, certainly not thermador. the point I was making was that there is definitely a lack of skill and therefore a premium to be paid on installing these units.
I went to the store with a tape measure to measure out and compare to the 650 subzero. The space is certainly difft on the 36 inch french doors, than the columns like you have.

We did similar measuring of the KA and the Thermador version they were making. The space ws different, even thought they were considered retooled versions of the same thing. My point was more to noticing things like lips on edged that limit use of space (someting can hang over slightly, but not if there is a lip that would cause it to tip), brackets that prevent you from using space in the back, accessability of the space -- especially places like the drawers )don't remember if SZ has full extension, but that is so wonderful), and things like the depth of that top shelf on the Thermador door is deep enough for stick of butter or margarine to go in depth-wise rather than width wise like my old fridge -- giving you the ability to store twice as much.

I obviously love my columns, and it was the 36" that got me to look at them. I thought we'd already picked another frige when they came out. I loved that 36" FD or I wouldn't have opened the towers. We'd already put in a larger space for the fridge and the cabinets were ordered. I even considered adding or changing a cabinet, but went with the columns. I'm happy every day that we did.

And that's really the point -- to find what works best for you and to make the decision for yourself, based on your needs and preferences. Folks say it's just a box to keep things cold, and there is truth to that. BUT, I am seeing that you use that fridge several times a day, every day. Even on days I'm not baking or cooking, that fridge is used a lot. If it's not holding things the way you need it to or you can't get to things easily, it's not right and it dosn't mater one iota whose name is stuck on it.

If the size or configuration inside the SZ works better for you, get it. But if you like the Thermador better, don't let someone who hasn't owned one and used it everyday talk you out of it because thay had a meeting with the other rep last week or have an incentive to sell a different product. Figgure out whetehr an added fraction of an inch will mean another row of bottles or jars fit or whether it's not that significant. And you will use the fridge long after a ding is resolved, so get what will be right for everyday for a long time. It's worth it.

We made a special point of looking at the SZ736 because it would integrate beautifully if we panelled it and I liked the idea of the freezer drawers below. It took me 5-10 seconds to know it wasn't right for us. I could have the ice down in that bottom drawer. In Texas, that's not good at least 10 months out of the year. I am also tall and I have neck problems that make bending and reaching more of an issue. That doesn't make it a bad fridge -- just one that isn't good for me.

Hope you find the one that makes you happiest and that it keeps you happy for a long time.

I am drawn to the Thermadors. The 30" tower I looked at had room for gallon milks in the door....unlike the subzero. I liked the shelves on the Thermadors, and the the seamless look. It seems the salesmen here like the subzeros more than the Thermadors....but who knows, maybe they are making more money on subzeros especially since they cost more. I think I'm going to take my chances with the Thermadors. I'm truly drawn to their look. If it was made by GE or any other company, I'd but it.

well, you all are not making this any easier on me...We purchased the thermador today and am freaking out over the install. Our G.C. says relax he will even go to the class on install if need be. but bottom line is this thing was not cheap wow ! i hope it all comes together in the end,We went with the armoire style I forgot the number .

You got the fridge that first wowed me. Don't fret about the install. Your GC sounds like he will do what he needs to to make it right -- and that is already paying more attnetion that the average installer. I think the biggets problem is that Thermador tried to make the intallation guide idiot proof by putting in lots of pictures and step by step. Problem is, the average installer isn't going to bother to refer to, much less read and study, installation instructions that are more than 20 pages long.

There is nothing that is that hard about the installation. They could all do it, but it does have ore steps. They have to install guides to the cabinets, attach the handles to the panel, attach the panel to the fridge, install clips and then the trim that covers the edges and install coverplates. These guys appear to be used to maybe installing guides or stops on the cabinets or back wall and sliding in the fridge. Boom, done. Any panels are put on by the cabinet folks, so the stainless models seem to be worse for them than the panelled ones. But like most things, if they would look at the istructions, figure out the parts before they start slapping stuff on and double check anything that doesn't seem to be going right, it would be fine. Maybe more step that they'd like, but fine -- much like assembling a piece of furniture our of a box, except the directions seem better to me.

If in doubt, download the instructions off the website and be familiar with them yourself -- then have that copy in case they say they lost or didn't get any.

I will say I am glad the appliance installers put mine in and not the GC's guys. They didn't read instructions on anything because they already knew everything.

We have ordered and are having installed tomorrow the Gaggenau 24" freezer and 30" fridge (at least I hope so!). We ordered the freezer the beginning June with an estimated 4-8 week delivery depending on customs delay. It finally was cleared for delivery the end of August. They eventually delivered it to our home in September only to be confronted by the installer's advise that it took a specially trained tech to install the door and he was not so trained. We then learned that this will supposedly be only the 4th unit installed in the US. They were good about the problems and gave us a good deal on a matching refrigerator.
The sizing flexibility, absence of overhead compressors, reduced maintenance, stainless steel and ice in the door won us over as we replace matching 36" SZ units installed 25 years ago. If they last half as long with as little repair as the SZ had we'll be happy. Regardless, they are beautiful, easily cleaned and I can't wait for the limitless filtered water ice without opening the door (which is what killed the SZ compressor twice in my opinion).
My only other words of advice: be wary of additional charges. If you are mounting them together of separated but by less than 10", there are additional cost parts needed. Also be careful on pricing as most dealers quote without the door front and without install (our install has been estimated at $250).

Hi - I'm considering the Thermador 42" side-by-side. Reviving this thread to see if anyone has had more experience/problems with the Thermador fridges given their "newness" to the market?

Also - if folks have comments about purchasing (or not) the extended warranty? I always think those warranties are scams, but open to be persuaded esp given newness issue.

I am loooooving my Thermador Freedom French Door. Beautiful layout, quality feel--working well.

The big deal about these Therms is the amazing "pull-in" hinges. When you open the door, it opens inside of its own footprint, so can be completely flush and integrated (it becomes exactly like another cabinet which can be directly touching and in-line with a neighboring cabinet). When I was shopping, only Therm and Liebherr could be COMPLETELY integrated in this way.

My cabinetmaker is just about finished with the fridge cabinetry. I had custom old-fashioned icebox hardware made and the cabinetmaker has made a perfect replica of an oak antique, complete with label. I can't wait for the install and will post photos at that time.
Pamela

pamela1 _ you obviously didn't shop very hard, or have a diff. agenda. Sub Zero's 700 series was the first completely flush and integrated fridge on the American market. Oh, that was in the mid to late 90's too.

Now, you may not like them, it may not be the right size for your application, or it may not have this feature or that. But, that is a lot different than not available.

We are loving ours, and they have been the most trouble free apppliances in the kitchen. Best of all, they look great and are easy to use. I was sold by the drawers and the use of space, including the lack of a vent on top.