How about a door from the laundry room to the Master WIC?

That's a very good idea. I wanted the laundry closer to the master since it's just the two of us now with laundry needs. DH wanted a to put a stacked W/D in the closet with the "REAL" laundry room in the basement. He was vetoed. But having immediate access makes for a good compromise. Thanks for the suggestion.

That pantry is huge! Very nice. Do you need it that size for a particular reason? (e.g., do a lot of canning; far away from a grocery store...) The reason I ask is that there's not very handy landing space for the refrigerator. If you shrank the pantry a bit, you could make the island longer and closer to the refrigerator. Also I'd swing the pantry door in so it doesn't collide with the ref door.

Where will your dining table go? The bump out is too small for much of a table. I'd draw it in to scale, with chairs, and make sure you have comfortable clearances.

From the NKBA guidelines:
Traffic Clearance at Seating: In a seating area where no traffic passes behind a seated diner, allow 32 inches of clearance from the counter/table edge to any wall or other obstruction behind the seating area. If traffic passes behind the seated diner, allow at least 36 inches to edge past or at least 44 inches to walk past.

I'd post your plan on the Kitchens Forum too, for helpful layout advice.

Congrats and have fun!

Here is a link that might be useful: NKBA Guidelines

Not a designer nor architect here, just tossing in my 2 cents. I like the plan alot. I like the idea of a door to the master closet. I'm not crazy about the door to the powder room right off the entry. Could you possibly move the door for the laundry down a bit and put the door to the powder room in that hallway? A bit more private I think. What will you put in the large space between the island and the back of the sofa? Is that your dining area? Nice pantry!! but as stated, no landing place by the fridge. I think you might find that inconvenient.

I'd prefer a laundry where *I* am when laundry's being done -- back hallway for me. If you're going to have a big finished lower level, you could do with a much smaller laundry area upstairs. (Consider how you will vent the dryer.)

I'd prefer a powder room near the family entrance (back hall again).

The 'Dinette' area IS too shallow. There is a lot of seemingly unused space between the kitchen island and 'Great Room' sofa. At the same time there's not *enough* walk-through room immediately behind the sofa.

Do you need the third garage stall? I'd prefer light in my kitchen.

Master Suite: Few people want a window in a closet (fades the clothing). I don't like accessing a closet through a bathroom (especially one that is occupied and where there is no separate toilet room). The bathroom has no natural light. Most people prefer a bed against an interior wall.

I am really concerned about your piano--squeezed into the corner and so close to the fireplace.

If you are only doing laundry for the two of you, keep that laundry room where it is!! We are only two and our master closet has a door to a large laundry room. I would never want it any other way (with just the two of us.) It is so convenient to do your laundry and then only step a few feet into your closet to put it all away. As such, I completely agree about putting a door between those rooms.

Why is that laundry room so large, though? What do you plan on doing with all that open space? (I would prefer more room in your master bathroom space, but it depends on what you're doing in the laundry.)

Are those double ovens in your kitchen? One thing to consider is switching your fridge with the double ovens. It would require shrinking the pantry just slightly to fit the fridge in, but the other spot is more convenient for cooking. On the flip side, your current spot is probably more convenient for guests and non-cooks grabbing something from the fridge.

Since your master closet is at the front of your house, keep the window. You could always put a blind there, but you need a window on that wall so it looks nice on the outside. I would probably build shelves there or something to be able to use all your space.

RE: the master bed on the exterior wall.... you will probably want to keep it there if you're a light sleeper. (I don't agree that people want beds on interior walls... why would that be? I've only had beds on exterior walls and can only think of similar layouts in homes I visit.) Anyway, our master bedroom adjoins the great room. If you're light sleepers, make every effort to soundproof that adjoining wall. Put two layers of sheet rock, add insulation and make your bedroom door solid core (solid wood.) For the sound reason, you might consider putting a door to the little anteroom/hallway that opens to the master bedroom and laundry room. As a light sleeper, I definitely would. It isn't as convenient since you have another door to open, but the extra sound protection would be appreciated in my home.

Very nice plan for an empty nester family! I like the general relation of the rooms to one another but I think the acutal floorplan can be tweeked and improved.

Keep the laundry where it is! I love having the laundry close to my bedroom. We have a pass through and not a full door. I would definately put some type of connection. But the room is quite big. I would maybe make the master bath a little bigger to accomadate a water closet.

Agree about the powder room being very exposed. If you are willing to take a little square footage from the laundry room, then you can build a little alcove for the powder room and closet.

It's not clear to me how the dining space is going to work. Will you have 2 tables? If you going to put a table in the bump out then that door is going to get in the way.

lolauren -- It's a human nature, 'security' thing. People generally prefer an interior wall for a bed, and a 'view' of the outdoors. In cold climates, it's also warmer. Many people are uncomfortable in an open seating area where they can't see or sense activity behind them, or where there's a balcony above them. I've never seen a hotel room with the bed on an exterior wall.

I would agree with Lolauren and PPS7. With a few tweaks as suggested, this is an excellent empty nester plan and, with the basement plans, would also work very well for a family with teenagers (a soon to be empty nest). Generally you've got very good use of space, the proportions are pleasing, and the rooms really do relate well to each other. If it were me, I think I'd also steal a little more room for the bath from the laundry room. However, that's just a personal preference, the bath works fine as drawn, but adding a window would be nice. I definitiely would leave the laundry room where it is and add the door from the laundry room to the closet. I like the closet off the bath and see no problem with the window. You'll probably keep the shades drawn, but you'll still get some natural light, which is nice as you dress. I also like the bedroom layout and have no problem with the bed on the outside wall -- in fact, that would be my preference. Like the others, I'm not sure I understand if you are intending to have one table or two. If just one, I think you could lose the bumpout completely and, if necessary, stretch the space a bit by shifting the kitchen wall back a foot or two and/or stealing some space from the garage to shift the stairs a bit. However I don't really think any streching would be necessary, although you would probably have to lose or reposition the small closet in the mudroom (I think that's a closet, but print is too fuzzy for me to read clearly). I'm attaching a link to a similar tread on the kit-dining-great room layout.

Here is a link that might be useful: dining room thread

I'm with lolauren on the bed thing. I don't remember being in any houses with the bed on an interior wall unless that was the only option. I even tried it for a bit in our current house to try to work with an existing satellite hookup. I hated it because either the sun would wake me up on the weekends or hearing the TV in the next room would.

As far as hotel beds not being on exterior walls, most of the ones that I have stayed in have either had balconies or doors/large windows on the exterior wall and most had the air system there. It wouldn't fit a bed on the exterior wall. Not really an apples to apples type of comparison in my opinion.

I like the idea of a passthrough to the laundry room. Maybe even the lower portion of the linen cabinet in the bathroom could have a back door so that you could keep your dirty clothes hamper in there and access it easily from the bath, closet, and laundry area.

I like the location of the laundry room, but there does seem to be some wasted space there. I don't know if this is the best layout. Something to really think about it where you are going to vent your dryer. You don't want it right by your front door probably unless you can hide it in some way.

Since most areas seem fairly spacious, have you given any thought to widening some of the doors to 36" in case you ever have anyone in a wheel chair, walker, crutches, etc? I would do laundry, master bedroom, master bathroom, and closet if possible.

Thanks for taking the time to look over our plans. It is helpful to hear other people's feedback. I took a minute to redraw the laundry room and powder room, changing the access to to the powder room from the main entry. That was a good suggestion.

I like the way it looks better. The foyer is cleaner with just the closet doors. I also like having the closet doors further away from the entrance. I do think the powder room feels more private that way.

I sew, quilt and papercraft and was planning on using that room as both the laundry and my sewing / crafting room. I haven't come up with a better name for it yet, so that's why it was listed as a laundry room.

The master bath is perfectly adequate for us. Our last house had a much larger bathroom which to us felt like a waste of space. This bathroom fits our needs so we will not be taking space from the laundry room to make the bathroom bigger.

My biggest problem with changing the entrance to the powder room is that I lose extra room for storage and work nooks in "my" room. Especially if I add the door to the closet. I know the space is still perfectly adequate and is more than a lot of people have. We liked the idea of having the washer and dryer in a little niche set off in a corner of the room. That made the room more my project room where I could keep an eye on my laundry while I worked.

I love the idea of having the door between the laundry room and the closet. DH likes the idea, but isn't so keen on giving up the wall space. He also is hesitant about making the change to the powder room door. He says he has been in plenty of houses where it is off the entry and he thinks it is easier for guests to find and use without feeling like they are invading your personal space. So now we will put both plans side by side and discuss which fits us best.

I will reread through the thread and take a closer look at the other suggestions that were made.

Oh, one other thing about this room specifically. The dryer would be vented out to the front of the house, under the front porch.

Well, I just did a bit of copy/paste since I couldn't see real measurements, but this might give you some ideas.

You can scoot down the hall closet and either make it or the half bath larger (and make that door larger!). You can move the sink to the jut out and have room for a larger, utility type sink, or a sink with a landing area on one side, etc. If you swap the washer and dryer positions, it will still keep the sink next to the washer - you would just have to take a step or pivot.

I see a good place for cabinets on the back wall and folding space - maybe even with a hanging rod above them to hang clothes fresh from the dryer.

I showed a door going to the back of the lined closet.

There is still an empty corner, but that leaves space for an ironing board, laudry baskets, etc. that you need floor space for.

Good catch on the windows in the bathroom. There will be at least one, possibly two (depends on how our budget holds up) on the shower wall. We'll have a pretty mountain view out of those windows so it would be nice to have the two if we can.

The window in the closet will stay. It is the front of the house and needs to be there. That window will face northeast so I'm not as worried about fading clothes as much as I am about privacy. :) I'm sure I'll leave the shades or blinds down most of the time.

We don't have a problem with the bed on an outside wall. We're sleeping that way now in our rental. We've done it before.

We have not finalized the dimensions of the piano niche. We will actually get some tape out and put it around the piano to figure out exactly how large it needs to be. I am also going to have the piano positioned straight in the niche instead of angled towards the fireplace. How much heat do direct vent fireplaces put out? I didn't think it would be that substantial.

Thanks for the link to the dining room thread and the NKBA guidelines for seating areas. I will go back and review that. The planned dining area goes from just above the island out to the nook wall. That floor space is 13'x10' which seems adequate for a 48" square table with four chairs. I will draw it out and play with a couple of different seating arrangements later today or tomorrow to make sure it will be work.

I suppose I could make the island a little smaller (6'x4' instead of 6'x'5) so that the whole length of that area can easily be opened up for dining. Then it would be almost 13'x20'. We would set up two tables in that area for family gatherings (that serve from six to twenty people). But that's two or three times a month max. I need a space that can be comfortable for just DH & I, for us plus one or two couples or for the whole gang.

I was thinking that the nook created some fun versatility. It could be used for dining or for a small sitting area. I even envisioned adding a small window seat on the 5' side. If it is too small, this is the time for me to figure that out. It's cheap to redraw a wall on the computer. Not so once we've actually started framing.

As far as the large pantry. I'm so excited for this room because (besides food) it will hold all the small appliances that we actually use, but not often enough to keep out (and I hate the clutter on my countertops too), as well as oversized serving platters and dishes. In our last house we had some of these in hard to reach cabinets, or in the basement or in the hall closet. Now they will all be in one place. I get giddy just thinking about it.

So that moves to the issue of the fridge placement. When I drew out the rough design I had the fridge where the wall ovens currently are and our designer talked me into switching them. He said it would be so much more convenient for guests to grab a drink, or condiments or whatever they need without having to walk through the kitchen. In my last house I used the island for the landing zone for the fridge rather than the counter next to it so I can't really see that being a problem here unless the prep sink in the corner is the issue.

I have talked to the designer about creating ADA compliant halls and doorways. DH is concerned about the budget and would rather just bust the doors out later if we get to that point. I don't know how it impacts the budget. I guess I could have him estimate it both ways.

I'm not sure if I responded to all the questions and issues brought up so I will come back and review this thread again later. I will also come back with some concrete dimensions for whether or not the dining area will work as I imagined it.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read and comment.

I have no problem with the powder room being off the foyer. I'd prefer one near the family entrance (garage door), but this location doesn't offend *my* sensibilities. Many homes have a foyer closet and powder room. I'd prefer it off the foyer to having guests steer toward the MBR -- and your craft room.

The 'Laundry' isn't too big if it will be your craft room; we didn't know that before. The placement wouldn't work for us, but every household is different. Our laundry sink is a Westie 'bath station', as well as a place to wash after gardening. Be sure you can get at the dryer vent for cleaning.

We love having 36" wide doorways. Movers and delivery men love them too! The larger doorways are in proportion with higher ceilings. (Just nine feet at our house.) We have hardwood throughout and no thresholds. If you will be painting your trim, wider and taller MFD doors aren't much more expensive than smaller ones and are great sound barriers. It would be a greater expense if you need stain-quality doors. IMO the wider doorways are also a good selling point.

BTW, I didn't create that point about beds. It's part of an architectural handbook, "Patterns of Home", and an earlier work studying human perceptions of what makes living spaces comfortable.

I love a lot of what you have designed: the large pantry, the craft room, and the desire to have a dining room that can expand to accommodate guests.
The only thing I would suggest is that you think of resale. If you can afford a 5 piece bath in the Master Bath most people will want it. It is better to add a soaking tub and decrease the size of the shower.

If you can make the craft room flexible so that it could be a bedroom as well (remove the laundry and place in a separate space) then it gives many more options for the space.

If you run the Dining Room widthwise, then you are able to extend the table well into your large Great Room to accommodate large dinner parties.

Always avoid placing the half bath in the entry. No one wants to hear someone going to the bathroom--visitor or not.

Always think about what you will see when you walk through each door. Also, think about where most people would place typical sized furniture.

I put together a plan that keeps all of the same ideas as your plan. It is virtually the same size and has all of the same spaces. Needless to say, I have been designing homes for a long time. I hope this aids in the design process. If you want any additional advice, please feel free to email me at cehomedesign@comcast.net

Best wishes,

Catherine Ellis
Lead Residential Designer
Catherine Ellis Design LLC

One of the big differences, imo, between the original design, and the proposed layout above is that all traffic through the family entrance (from garage) now HAS to go through the kitchen. And, most likely right in front of the range as well. That would be enough to take that plan out of my options book.
What was done on the right hand side is attractive, but the left side/garage/mud/kitchen area wouldn't work for my family.

I agree that it would be ideal to have a main hallway that would run just below the kitchen. However, that said, this would eliminate the piano niche which seemed like a better placement for such a large, loud piece of furniture. Also, it would increase the square footage and push the garage out even further in front of the house, which usually does not work asthetically (unless you add a courtyard or other feature). In addition, I took into account that as many walls and plumbing should line up as possible to minimize construction costs.

If this were the main entrance for guests, then I agree. Guests should never enter through or see a full view of the kitchen from the front door. The main traffic pattern would actually not pass in front of the range, but through the main, open area of the kitchen (by the sink and refrigerator), allowing for easier grocery unloading. If you think of all of the rooms that you would want to enter from a garage, a kitchen should be high on the list for this reason.

There are many ways to better the plan by adding square footage. I wanted to keep the plan virtually the same size so that the owner could see other ways to configure the same amount space and achieve the same goals. I realize that not all of it may be ideal for everyone, however, the key is to make the layout work for the broadest audience.

As always, I hope my input aids in the design process.

Catherine Ellis

I like the change in the bedroom side of the house that ceresidentialdesign did. I'm not sure about the stair movement, and having the kitchen path be past the stove isn't a good idea, but I really like the separation of the laundry room and the craft room.

Having a separate craft room makes the room a lot more flexible--even for crafts. There really isn't any reason that the craft room has to share with the laundry. Before, most of one wall was given up to laundry--and couldn't be used for furniture placement or a large table. A single open room makes it much easier to arrange furniture and store craft items. If the craft room *is* a bedroom, though, it does have to have a closet.

Is there a reason (OP?) for the laundry/craft room to be shared?

The kitchen side doesn't work for me--no significant pantry, too many paths through the kitchen, including the dangerous one past the stove.

And one additional quibble: "the key is to make the layout work for the broadest audience." I disagree--the key is to make the layout work for the original poster--s/he's the only one it has to work for. The rest of us are just putting our 2cents worth in.

Just a small note of warning regarding something the OP had written regarding exhausting the dryer vent under the front porch - think of a way to avoid this if possible. Dumping large amounts of warm, moist air into an enclosed, wood framed area is asking for rot/mold/mildew problems.

bethohio3: You may have missed the pantry because it is not labeled. The pantry is 5'x7'6, and is the room just off the kitchen area with shelving on either side and a refrigerator/freezer in the center. It backs the garage giving the owner the option of a pass through door from the garage.

I don't agree with the comment about the "dangerous walkway by the stove" because this is not intended to be a main thoroughfare through the kitchen, as explained in a previous post. The main thoroughfare runs past the sink and refrigerator. The accessibility of the kitchen is what makes it usable by the extended family who will be frequenting this space, as the owner mentioned in his/her post. The main reason that the entrance to the kitchen is not in the same location as the refrigerator is that it greatly reduces that amount of cabinet space, which is usually a big deal with the "empty nesters" (lots of dishes, serving platters, etc.).

I understand your comment about the idea that "the key is to make the layout work for the original poster--s/he's the only one it has to work for." You are correct: the owner has the right to build whatever layout s/he likes. However, in this less than ideal housing market (and job market) as a homeowner I want as many assurances that if I have to sell my home I have the best chance possible of doing so. I believe that the easiest way to achieve this is by creating a layout (and choosing finishes inside the home) that appeal to a significant audience.

I hope this makes sense.

This may be a regional thing, but until I moved up here, I'd never seen a washer that drained into a laundry sink (My initial thought was "What the bleep is this jury-rigged mess?!"). You don't have to have one if you don't actually want one, and that would save a lot of space.

What about moving the bathroom over so that it's where the sewing room door is now, and sliding that door in line with the window? That gives the bathroom privacy, but keeps your sewing room size, and then you're looking into the middle of the room rather than at the furniture that's against the wall. My sewing room is the second bedroom in our house. It's about 10x12, with my main clothing armoire taking up roughly the same wall space as your washer and dryer. Honestly, it's not quite big enough and I only sew clothes, no papercraft or quilting. I realize it's more than most people have, but if you can have more with minimal changes, go for more.

Alternatively, you could move the washer and dryer to the long wall. I know you said you liked the nook aspect, but what will go on the long wall? You wouldn't want your cutting table there, because then you would open the door and Table! (in my case, table piled with crap!). Same with the other "workhorse" areas of the craft room- I would be more comfortable with those not in full view from the doorway, and on the other wall, they're hidden behind the bathroom. Also, it would mean that it shares a wet wall with the master, so cheaper construction.

One cheap option for the laundry/master closet is the Ikea Antonius system. The baskets pull out from either side- you could use bi-fold doors on the wall (or none at all) and have accessibility from both sides without losing storage space. I'm sure there are others too.

I also wholeheartedly support not having a soaking tub if you don't soak in it.

Cocontom: is this what you meant when you suggested moving over the bathroom door? (wow, sorry this image is so big, can I change that somehow?)

By making those changes I can add in one more storage cabinet and my cutting table. It's a little crowded, but all the pieces fit in the room. I have to give up the laundry sink (not used for draining the washer into, but for pre-soaking since my front loader just doesn't do a good job of that, I also use it for cleaning art supplies). However the master bathroom and the powder room sinks are both right around the corner.

The ONLY thing I don't love about making this change is the door opening into the main living area. If the door is wide open, whomever is sitting in the family room can see right into the room. BUT I don't hate it. And it gives me back some much needed floor space in my project room. I guess I can just keep the door closed when we have company over.

So I guess the vote is...(option #1) Should I go back to the first design and have the powder room open into the foyer OR (option #2) push the bathroom against the master bath which makes the entrance to the powder room more private, consolidates all the water lines in one area of the house,and ends up with the project room opening into the great room?

Or is there another solution that I am not seeing?

CEResidential...I appreciate you taking the time to come up with an alternate design. It was interesting to walk through it with DH last night. It helped us verbalize what were priorities to us in our new home. I wouldn't mind having a separate craft room and laundry room. It just seemed easier and cheaper to combine them. Especially since some of the things that happen in both rooms overlap.

I understand your concern about appealing to a significant audience, however I do think this layout would appeal to a family with teens or empty nesters like ourselves. I have looked at a lot of houses for sale in this area (thinking it would be good to take advantage of rock bottom real estate prices). The ones that have the square footage we are looking for have small kitchens and a lot of bedrooms. The ones that have the layout we are looking for are at least a thousand square feet bigger than we want or need.

We are still tweaking the basement. DH now wants to add a small exercise area down there. I'm not sure how to fit that in.

I had the same thought about the door opening into the room- that's why I suggested putting it in the middle, so at least you would see less. Although with the cutting table there, it kind of defeats that.

Ooh! I think I found it! This keeps everything private, but you still have the space, and a huge new storage space! The door doesn't quite fit, but I don't know whether that was my copy and paste or the actual space.