What are the four circles opposite the range?
Please tell me they're not seats --

They are seats. I knew someone was going to bring that up. Is that really really bad?

yes :-)

Sorry, yes -
Really, Really Bad...
Unless you don't cook.

Because if you do, that space behind the cooktop and prep area is the busiest and most dangerous space in the kitchen. A busy cook is moving quickly with sharp knives and hot pots full of hot foods, and anyone who crosses that pathway risks causing serious injury to himself or others.

Depending on what that door is in the top right corner, I'd be tempted to put your range in the island opposite the sink and put seats on the far side of the peninsula backing to the dining area. Of course, if that section gets a lot of foot traffic, that doesn't solve the problems either.

Frankly, I'm surprised that design ever got to the 'almost final' stage with that particular flaw. I'd screech to a halt and start over.

Can you post a slightly more comprehensive floorplan that shows adjoining rooms? Also, some information about how you live and what your goals are for your space would help.

I cannot read most of it. Other than the pics of the sink, range, and seats, I really cannot tell what anything else is. Is it possible to post it either much bigger or in a different format. In particular, I'm trying to read the dimensions and what other "features" you have. (Dimensions should include b/w the walls & windows & doors as well as overall lengths & widths.)

Thanks!

One thing I'm trying to do with this kitchen is look at the plans and then cook in them -- and have the other people who use the kitchen do the same.

Where are the kids and what are they doing while I am cooking dinner -- are their paths and mine intersecting all the time? If I am making breakfast at the same time my husband is getting ready to leave in the morning am I walking all over the place to get the things I need? If someone wants a drink from the refrigerator then a glass and then wants to sit at the island and watch TV -- do those steps make sense -- even if they make sense do they get in my way? If I am clearing the dining room table or unloading the dishwasher does the dish cabinet make sense?

Where do I land hot things from oven, stove top? Where do I prep? Where do groceries land when I come in and is it convenient to put them away or am I running laps from fridge to pantry etc.

hope this helps

The door to the top right is to our mudroom. That will get a lot of traffic as that is how we will come in and out of the house. Don't use our front door much because you need to climg a lot of steps to get to the front door.

We are a family of 5. Kids are 6, almost 9 and almost 11. Usually, when I am cooking the kids are elsewhere in the house. Homework is finished by time I get dinner started.

Sorry that you can't read it too well. It is a large plan that I took a digital pic of.

The door to the left of the dinette area is the family room, the door to the right of the dinette is the dining room. The door (with the double pocket doors) is to the living room.

The room you see with the dinette is our current dining room. The future dining room is our current kitchen. We are bumping out the back for the new kitchen area and mud room/powder room.

Our KD assurred us that this layout was fine, though we did have some concerns about the seats being where they are around the peninsula.

I am a total newbie at this design stuff and wish now that I had done more research, but I'm afraid to change things around now would cost us more in design time. I'll try to post some better pictures tonight.

The first thing I'd want to avoid is having the main working parts of the kitchen be the main pathway into the house! That would be terribly frustrating.

If you have the casual dining, do you need the stools in the kitchen? That spot, like others have said, is way to busy and right in the main traffic pattern for stools. I think I see a prep sink on the dinette side? If so, it seems to cut up what could be a very useful expanse island countertop, and sure isn't in a spot useful for prep. I would move it to the corner of the island nearest the fridge --once the pesky stools are gone ;-) -- So that it can be useful for prep by the person at the stove, and be useful from the dinette side. I like additional sinks to be multipurpose.

If you expressed a very justifiable concern over the stools across from the range and the KD tried to convince you your concerns were unfounded, I'd think this KD isn't listening and doesn't have your best interest at heart. I just can't imagine anyone passionate about kitchen design OKing the kitchen doubling as the family freeway. Sorry, but you asked if it has any issues, and the ones it has would be deal-breakers for me. I don't think this person understands the needs of a busy family.

Ok, I appreciate your honesty and you've definitely given me something to think about.

Poor Donna. All your plan except the kitchen looks really nice. I'd love to have that great family dining room right there.

It's only been hit once and sort of late, so I wanted to underline the issue of having your home's main traffic flow channeled through the length of the kitchen. That's a built-in problem thousands of older kitchens have been remodeled specifically to eliminate, even when the flow doesn't require a side run and three turns through a narrow canyon before making it into the rest of the house (water runs faster in narrow spaces, do people I wonder?). In any case, the flow really needs to come straight forward and run along the outside of your island.

Some key points:

- As RHome said - If you asked the KD specifically about the stools vrs. range and she said it was OK, either she doesn't know much at all, or she isn't working in your best interests. Either of these is, in my opinion, grounds for termination of her services.

- "I'm afraid to change things around now would cost us more in design time" It will. But the alternatives are costing you LOTS more in construction time and money or ending up with a kitchen you'll hate. Really, losing design time, though frustrating, is the best and cheapest outcome.

- Here's a rough draft of an alternative layout that gets the foot traffic out of your work zones. Your cabinet salesperson won't make as much money, but you'll have a much more functional kitchen.

{{gwi:1597720}}

What Sweeby says about design time is key. If the design is wrong/bad the money spent on construction, cabinets, etc will be wasted when you have to live in the space and hate it.

We've been in design mode for 2+ years and won't put a shovel in the ground for our kitchen addition until March.

Sweeby's suggestion works well and solves your issues. The KD, by the way, in my mind should be SHOT for suggesting stools backing to a range.

I agree with all that has been said about the apparent incompetence of a supposed KD who would put seating backing up to a range. Who would do such a thing?! Any of the amateur KDs here at GW would (and have) spotted that very obvious flaw within seconds. The fact that you brought it up as a concern and were dismissed demonstrates both incompetence and arrogance, in my opinion, and that is a dangerous combination for you.

Sweeby's suggestion is almost identical to what I was thinking, except I'd switch the trash and DW to make the DW more away from traffic and the trash accessible to clean-up helpers.

I had the trash there first Holligator, but figured having it on the cook's side would allow it to function for prep use also. But Holligator's point is valid.

I have to agree with what everyone else has said.

But I would leave the trash & DW where Sweeby has it (sorry Holligator!) because where the trash is now it's accessible to not just the cleanup zone, but also the prep and, to a lesser degree, the cooking zone.

I was considering suggesting you move the prep sink to the south end of the island and then move the range slightly north (not much, 6 or 12 inches) so the prep sink & cleanup sink were better separated and it would give you a sink others could access w/o infringing on the work areas, but you have so much prep space on the west wall that's close to the prep sink plus the PR (for hand washing) and the cleanup sink (for drinks) are close by that it's probably OK to leave the prep sink there. >

HTH!

Sweeby, I'm confused. My double oven is where you now have china. Where does the double wall oven move to.

Also, I asked to have the dishwasher to the left of the sink because I will be storing dishes and such in a hutch that will be sort of in the corner over the susan.

I did really want seats at the peninsula more for coffe with friends and lunch. Dinner would be at the table.

Yeah, I thought of that, too. I have a somewhat similar layout and ended up with my trash pullout in the island so it would be accessible to all those areas, but my sink and DW are closer to the corner. My island will be my main prep area, even though I have a lot of counter space on the perimeter, so that makes sense to me. My SIL has the trash/DW layout just like in sweeby's diagram, and it's a major PITA, with people trying to get past the open dishwasher to empty their plates. I'd rather take the extra step to the trash when I'm prepping than deal with the open DW during clean-up.

If the window to the right of the rangetop could go, you'd have room to move the rangetop down and fit dbl ovens to the left of the fridge.

I may be misreading your tone (a hazard just reading and not hearing someone's answer), but I'm getting you don't like our suggestions, (I say 'our' since it seems we all envisioned something Sweeby has drawn and agree that it seems to solve major problems). Do you really want to save the peninsula with the issues we've pointed out? Sweeby and others can correct me if this is a terrible idea, but I think, even though she didn't draw them, you could probably have an overhang barstools under the far side of the island (facing the rangetop) with as much space as she left for the aisle. Would this not meet your lunch and coffee needs?

It will be a LOT easier to access dishes if they're not added to the traffic jam you have between the sink and stove. You are putting them in the cook's main area by having them in the corner. In Sweeby's plan snackers at the island and someone setting the table can get to the dish hutch without getting in your way.

"My double oven is where you now have china. Where does the double wall oven move to."
-- Not a problem. I couldn't read any labels or dimensions, so just guessed - put the ovens back there.

"Also, I asked to have the dishwasher to the left of the sink because I will be storing dishes and such in a hutch that will be sort of in the corner over the susan. "
-- That can work. But do consider RHome's point about keeping little table-setters out of your work area. (I think it could be managed though with a clear 'training session' as soon as the kitchen's built.) If you have the space, you might also consider a shallow dish hutch on the far side of the island backing to the powder room wall.

"I did really want seats at the peninsula more for coffe with friends and lunch."
-- Again, put them on the far side of the island. With this layout, that would be a perfect spot for them because with the prep sink there, the island would be the perfect place for a cook to 'putter' while visiting with friends.

Most of us have to make some compromises in out kitchen designs. What are the key things in yours that you don't want to compromise on? What's important to you?

For those that do have seating across from their range, how do you like it? If it is so dangerous to be 24" or so away from a range top, we should all get hazard pay for standing directly over it 3 times a day.

Please don't think I don't appreciate your advice. Believe me I am new at this and very naive. I thought if a KD suggests it she must know what she's talking about. I just wish I would have posted here before we had got so far along in the design phase. It's just frustration and disbelief on my part that she got it so wrong.

I do want to keep the window to the right of the range. That's where my driveway leads to the garage and we want to be able to see if someone is coming up that way.

I just have to think about and digest all of your suggestions to see what I like and don't like.

Seedsilly, the seating would probably make it more dangerous for the cook, not necessarily the ones in seats. But, there is the added hazard of collisions involving hot pans and grease, especially with her traffic pattern coming from the back door added into the equation. There is the potential of 3 people meeting at once in that hot spot.

Maybe this will give you all a better idea of the layout.

This is the peninsula looking towards the dinette area.

This is the pninsula and sink area looking from the dinette.

The range top and refrigerator wall.

Oh, I get it. That makes sense now! Thanks!

Those are some beautiful elevation drawings, and I can see why you love them.

But you gotta get the function right.
And it will definitely be possible to keep the look you love while fixing the flow issues.

Thanks Sweeby, point taken.

That looks very pretty on paper, Donna. No wonder you're upset at having to backtrack so much. The cabinets will still look great in other configuration, though.

Regarding the stove area, everyone in that area is potentially at great risk, including those sitting right there on the stools. Anyone who has ever seen a child horribly scarred by a kitchen accident would never take this anything but very seriously. Now that I think of it, it seems to me the KD's firm could have a very large liability exposure if such a layout were constructed on its advice and a bad accident occurred. The owner's approval and acceptance of the plan would not excuse an informed expert's recommendation of it.

OK, so I emailed the KD and told her I need to make a change to the plan because of concerns I have with the peninsula. We are going to get together sometime this week and I just want to get all of your suggestions for changes because I want to get it right this time. Here is a bigger picture of the plan so you can see it better. I appreciate any suggestions!

Hi donna -- thanks for posting the layout larger!

I'm looking at your plan(s) from a v. biased opinion -- how I cook and how my family uses our kitchen. Needless to say, our needs are going to be really different from yours.

With that caveat, two things really jump out at me as potential big-time headaches (again, my headaches!):
1) the location of your double oven. For me this problem is two-fold: it is right next to your mudroom entrance, which means that all entering / exiting will be right in front of the oven. If you're using the oven then you'll be blocking that traffic. If slowpokes are coming or going, then they'll be blocking your access to the oven. One of the houses in which I grew up had the double wall oven right in front of the passageway into the dining room and man was it annoying! The other issue I have with the placement of the wall oven is that it is so far from your cooktop. I guess I find a lot of things I make need to use both components (cooktop and oven), so I prefer to have them closer together. I was esp. keen on rhome's suggestion of tucking your wall oven next to your fridge, thereby near your cooktop. Absolutely, this will necessitate changing the upper cabinet configuration surrounding your cooktop, but then you might have a clearer view out your window? That could be a happy benefit!

2) the peninsula. In some kitchens peninsulas are terrific! But the ones of which I'm thinking don't have a major traffic flow going in at the top of the kitchen, requiring people to walk through the entire kitchen to exit. (maybe I'm misreading your plans, but it appears to me that anyone using the mudroom must walk through the whole kitchen on their way to / from the mudroom -- that would drive me bonkers) I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your mudroom-to-kitchen entrance weren't where it is (at all -- if that were just a closed wall), then the peninsula could function really well. But as your KD's drawn in, everyone must traipse through the whole space.

I remember seeing your drawing when you first posted it and the v. first thing which jumped out at me (before I really studied it) was the seats opposite your cooktop. It both scared me (as others have already written) as well as didn't make a lot of sense: I tend to stand facing the cooktop, not at a severe angle, so if it were me (which it is not), I wouldn't be able to converse with the people seated at the peninsula anyway.

I have two toddlers, so you can see from where I'm coming about the danger thing -- nervous nellie, etc.!

I am really taken with sweeby's general plan with the island. To my eye and way of thinking, it provides terrific traffic flow (to / from mudroom, for the cook[s], for clean-up) as well as a great way to get the community experience you want (putting chairs / stools on the far side of the island).

You might be totally anti-island, which is of course okay! It's your kitchen. But I wonder about positing it to your KD, showing her sweeby's plan and saying "let's use this as a starting point."

Now this is none of my business, but I'm not 100% confident in your KD's planning skills (based on the initial design and suggestions you wrote she gave) -- her drawing / computer skills are incredible! But I really think you can get a more functional, convivial space using a 'L' with an island.

And please don't forget to share what you've worked on! One thing I wish is that I'd come to this forum earlier so I could have run my plans by everyone here. Our kitchen (the cabinets may be going in next week?) will be fine, I'm sure given the incredible amount of time my husband and I spent 'pencil cooking' on the plan, but I also don't doubt for one moment that the sage souls here could've found ways to tweak it and make it that much more functional. At the least, they would've asked questions which would have made me either determine "yep, this is really me!" or "hmmm, maybe I would function better that way."

Good luck.

rmkitchen, thank you for your ideas. I agree that in this kitchen, the peninsula will cause a major traffic jam. I am not anti island at all, and that is originally what I wanted. The plan prior to this one has the kitchen a bit smaller and would not have fit an island with seating with enough room on the sides so we went with the peninsula, but by doing some tweaking, we were able to get some more space in the kitchen.

In defense of my KD, at that point she did tell me that we could go with an island, but I had grown to love the look of the peninsula, so I told to that we would stay the course. I must say that at that point, I did still have some reservations about the flow and the seating, but I did not say so, so this is partially my fault.

I will keep you all posted with the new design.

Another question. In the original plan, I have the warming drawer and the microwave in the peninsula. Now that I will go with an island as in sweeby's drawing, where should these go? I don't want to lose the seating at the island, but I'm not sure they will look right on the opposite side of the island. The idea was to make the peninsula look like furniture. And I also don't want to lose too much cabinet space if I have to put them somewhere else.

Anywhere on the cooktop wall, or on the island facing that wall would work logistically.

Aesthetically, some warming drawers can be fully integrated (with cabinet panels) so as not to interfere with your 'furniture look' at all.

If you want the island to have a furniture look, you'll also need to consider carefully how to handle the prep sink, since water supply and drain lines will need to run through the floor. There are certainly ways to handle it successfully, but definitely plan in advance!