Thanks for thinking of me!

There is no good news. The fabricator (Creative Stoneworks of Emeryville, Oakland, Bay Area) will be refunding our deposit. He is also going to replace the small piece that his fabricator destroyed (which was to be used for a unit next to our stove). Though I don't know how he is going to replace it. He hasn't given details. The Santa Barbara stone seems to have mostly disappeared from the face of the earth! We can then use that money to start fresh. If we attempt to replace the cracked piece (which we very much would like to do b/c it looks terrible) we will be out a large amount of money, and risk a lot of damage to our sink and cabinets. We'd probably have to select a different soapstone as well (which wouldn't match the other counter in our kitchen).

:-(

Francy

Francy, M Teix didn't have enough Santa Barbara left?!

After all that agonizing over the templating, they destroyed the leftover piece, too? And M Teix doesn't have enough Santa Barbara for your little counter? So sorry to hear about your kitchen woes. Was hoping you were waiting to post your "tada!" pictures. :-(

*sigh* M. Tex came to our house (as did the owner of Creative Stoneworks) on a Wednesday (several weeks ago). After much debate, Creative Stoneworks agreed to purchase more Santa Barbara stone, and 1. replace the cracked counter, 2. replace the piece that was destroyed (which I never even posted about here because it was just too comical for words!). At that meeting, Adriana, from M. Tex said they only had large slabs of Santa Barbara left, and so Creative Stoneworks would have to purchase a big piece. They were not pleased, but agreed.

On Saturday, we went to M. Tex. There were no big slabs left. Apparantly the last 2 just sold since Wednesday. I couldn't believe it!! I'm so cursed, it is beyond my understanding!! They had 3 remnants for me, which they offered at 50% off. I would need all 3 to repair my kitchen, and using the remnants would add an ADDITIONAL seam in my tiny counter (currently there is only a little seam behind the farm sink. The remnants would add an additional full-depth seam on the counter, along with a seam behind the sink. That's 2 seams in about 10 square feet of counter!

Or, M. Tex offered about 30% off if I wanted a different stone. I didn't understand why they wouldn't offer 50%, but oh well.

After gathering opinions, other soapstone fabricators suggested that the epoxy used by CS would be very, very, very difficult to remove without damaging my cabinets or fireclay sink. They said normally soapstone is attached with a flexible type adhesive like silicone caulk. (I need to check into this with the Marble Institute of America.) When I reported this info to CS, I was accused of "slander" (sic--not the correct term for what he was implying).

Soooooo, given all this, I concluded that in my opinion, I would only trust this job with a new fabricator (M. Tex or other). Of course, it will basically be "free" for me to go with the original plan to have Creative Stoneworks fix this. But my impression was that they didn't want to fix it. (Negotiations and dealings were unpleasant; I always tried to be polite and kind when asking for a resolution, but I was met with--in my opinion--anger and hostility and repeated remarks about talking to the CS attorney.) I asked CS to refund my money, and replace my damaged piece. They agreed. And so we wait for our money and our stone. I am very, very surprised that things took such an adversarial turn, given that my husband and I consider ourselves to be extremely fair and honorable people.

(Oh--and the irony of the destroyed piece is just too much! Basically, my husband convinced me to change our original layout in order to save a piece about 2.5 by 3 feet. Unknown to us at the time, changing the layout ended up putting the CRACK front and center!! My orginal layout would have had the crack hidden under my microwave!! So, we changed the layout, got the crack, and then they inadvertantly destroyed the small piece we were saving!! OUCH!!!)

The running joke around here (supplanting jokes about my 20 inch crack) is that we need to have fish at least once a week so that we can proudly hold our plates in the kitchen and say, "We got scrod!"

Francy

Did you pay separately for your stone, or did you pay for it through your fabricator? If the fabricator is giving you all your money back, I would strongly consider living with the crack - you'll have gotten your counters for free.

((((Francy))))

Ugh. What a saga. Thank you for the update. Please keep us posted. I hope everything will work out for you and your poor kitchen.

Weissman--I already paid about 2200 for just the stone. The fabricator was different/separate. That was to be another 2200 (or so). That is the part that I am getting back. M. Tex quoted me about 3400 to redo both sides of the sink with a different stone, not even including removal. No one wants to remove them. No one wants that liability.

I sure don't want to live with it. The crack looks pretty bad. And I don't even know if I can put hot pots down on that area.

Here is the front part of crack after I sanded off the Bee's Oil. Some oil stays trapped in the crack.

When the section is oiled, viewed from the right side, the crack appears as a black smudgy line, across an otherwise even expanse (except for part of a thick greenish vein on the runnels):

But viewed from the other side, the crack is silvery white.

I don't understand why I can't get it to blacken like the rest of the stone. I've sanded it down several times now. But it just won't darken.

And is it stable? I have no idea. My fingernail catches on it in places.

Francy

Oh Francy. You have been more than above board with these people and you have been royally scrod for sure. This is the first time you've mentioned their names (I think) and that in and of itself shows how tolerant and how forgiving you have been. I certainly hope it doesn't take long to get the money back and I hope there is some good resolution that can come from this - I"m not sure what - but somehow I hope your troubles somehow at least help someone else. It isn't fair what has happened to you. All you wanted was a little counter. It shouldn't have been this hard. I'm so sorry.

I am so sorry too, Francy. Bless your heart. What a drama. Just dealing with this issue for this length of time is so draining. I am sure you are just worn out with trying to negotiate some kind of satisfactory resolution, especially when things become adversarial. Treat yourself to some special pampering, you deserve it.

OMG, Francy! I had so hoped some good had come of all of this. I simply cannot believe that this kitchen remodel has tried you so! I'm so sorry!!!

I do hope that somehow you will be able to replace the soapstone. Have you talked with your cabinet guy? Is there a way you can have CS remove them (so if they mess up your cabs they can be responsible for fixing them) and then have someone else install the new ones? If you can get 30% off the new SS, I would buy new and use the refund from CS to pay a new fabricator. I know you'd be eating quite a bit of $$, but I think in the end you will be happier. That crack seems to be bothering you more than it was at first (when you were trying so hard to be optimistic about it).

As for the counters, are they installed directly onto the cabs or onto a subtop? I know very little about all of this, but it seems like it would be easier to remove if it was installed onto a subtop. Also, it seems the sooner it is removed, the better. Doesn't it take over a month to completely cure?

Keep us posted and GOOD LUCK! At some point you might need to retain a lawyer, but I hope not. You have been so flexible and understanding and kind throughout it all - just do not let these guys take advantage of your good heart.

We are all rooting for you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Francy,
I'm so sorry that this isn't resolving like it seemed it might.

I know that they say they can't epoxy where it has been oiled, but since soapstone is non porous I keep wondering why the oil can't be removed so that epoxy could be applied. Maybe taken off with paint thinner? Am I crazy? If that could happen and it was epoxied I'll bet that it would look just like a seam- invisible!

Oh, Francy, I'm adding my hugs to the list. There MUST be a way to resolve this -- even if means a lawsuit.

Decodilly, paint thinner is toxic - do not use it! Oil can be removed with plain old rubbing alcohol, according to my fabricator/supplier. It works because I used it on the sample I have. Then I went over it with Clorox clean-up, the white gritty kind - and there is no oil that I can detect.

Francy, stop being so nice and put your boxing gloves on!
We're here rooting for you.

Ditto, ditto, Francy! I'm with all your fans and GW friends who have been following your story. But what I'm not getting is this: although CS once claimed willingness to buy new stone and refabricate, and M Tex agreed to sell new stone of choice at a reduced price, who has taken any actual responsibility for the crack? Sounds to me like neither and you are now left holding the lousy stone! I know and understand that you have been reluctant thus far to turn up the heat on this situation but now might be the time to do just that. Retain a lawyer to write letters, make calls and negotiate a reasonable, time specific settlement on your behalf. Sometimes, you have to get your own big bad wolf in order prove that you won't just go away with a whimper over your wounds.

Definitely rooting for you, no matter what!

Martha: Neither one of the companies was willing to "take responsibility for the crack." M. Tex maintained that IF the crack were pre-existing (which I truly believe it was), THEN Creative Stoneworks should have notified them upon receipt and they would have immediately replaced it. I suspect (just my guess here) that my stone was not carefully inspected. Also, the Santa Barbara stone looks very different from the Ice Flower and "Original" soapstone normally carried by Creative Stoneworks. So, I suspect (again, just my opinion) that they lacked the experience to recognize a crack in the Santa Barbara. This would make most of the responsibility fall on the fabricator.

When the two companies were arguing in my kitchen, Creative Stoneworks was ready to walk out on us, saying that we didn't owe the remainder of our balance (about 60%). But thank goodness Adriana and her fabricator were standing there to defend us. She was adamant that CS needed to replace the stone. Finally, CS agreed. We thought it was resolved.

Then, a few days later, there was no Santa Barbara to be found. Also, after emailing all the well-known soapstone fabricators around the country, I was told that the epoxy (now rock hard) would be very hard to remove. My cabinets are not high quality, and I'm not sure they will survive the process. And given that this is already our second installation of cabinets, I need to be done with cabinets! I don't trust Creative Stoneworks with the removal, so I don't want to secure a lawyer to force them to fix it. I don't ever want Creative Stoneworks in my home again (just my personal opinion).

So, after thinking about the situation (and after forming my own personal impression of the professionalism of Creative Stoneworks after several conversations with them--which I can't go into here at this time), we realized that our best bet would be to get back our little deposit and our little piece of 2.5 x 3 stone from them, and remove them from our lives. Then, we can decide how we want to proceed. No fabricator wants this job, so it will cost us more than the original job to fix it.

But we DO need to get a timeline on this. The owner of Creative Stoneworks, in a phone message, said he would refund on money on his next check cutting (or some term like that), and that he would replace our little piece. But my husband never called him back b/c he is so difficult to talk to (in my opinion). It is just baffling to me. It really is. We are so calm and polite, and he (in my opinion) just works himself into a fury as he talks, and starts referring to slander and his attorney.

*sigh*

I hate drama. I truly do. There was never any need for drama in this situation. An emabarrassing mistake was made. In my opinion, Creative Stoneworks should have said "oops" and quickly fixed it. The money was insignificant to them. And then they would have been heroes, and I would have filled the internet with their praise. I'm baffled at how this has turned out.

((francy))Some people just take the low road when the high road is wider, open, and easily available. We had a contractor who built our screened porch on our old house who behaved this way. We had to get an attorney involved and the attorney could just not figure out why someone who had an established professional reputation would want to throw it away acting like a child. It gave me agita at night--I lost sleep over it regularly--why didn't he just perform to his contract or at least meet the terms he agreed on in a meeting with the attorney? He lied to *our attorney*--who is well known in the smallish town we lived in. The whole thing could have been so easy but he *chose*, actively, to make it painful and difficult.

All this by way of saying you're not alone in being baffled at some professionals' behavior. If you all don't want to talk with him, writing a registered letter laying the agreement out and requesting the agreed-upon action within the agreed timeline would be a wise thing to do in case the fabricator decides to try to weasel out of his agreement. Paper trail and all...not saying it will come to this but you should protect yourselves and there's no harm in a letter.

Sheesh. Well, Creative Stoneworks has certainly ruined their reputation on this board. I will add my voice to the others expressing how bad we feel that you are going through such a horrendous experience.

I can understand why you want to wait for your refund from CS before deciding what to do next. One suggestion, if you have not done so already, is get everything in writing. It would be especially good if you had communication between you and CS in writing so that you can provide additional proof of any promises they have made. For example, if you feel comfortable doing so, you might write CS and briefly restate the agreement that was made on such-and-such a date that they would be refunding your deposit in the amount of $xxxx. You could then state you will expect to receive their check by [enter date], unless advised otherwise by them in writing. Not only would that keep them advised that you expect them to make good on their agreement, but it would provide the all important paper trail if further action is necessary. There's also small claims court, if they don't pay up. I would think you would be awarded damages, as well as the refund of your deposit, considering what it will cost (including the potential damage to your cabinets) to fix this problem.

I thought about suggesting small claims court but every state is different. In NJ, it is for matters of, I believe, $500 and under. Don't know what it is in CA - but it's a great way to proceed if it is appropriate for your case. Check out the link below, Francy.

Here is a link that might be useful: CA small claims self help page

I too am feeling very badly for you, Francy. I'd like to know whether CS knows about this forum and all the bad publicity they've garnered from it. That in itself represents much loss, in my opinion. Also, I believe you are in the Bay Area; is that correct? In the San Jose Mercury there is a column called "Action Line" in which people write in about consumer problems and the columnist, Dennis Rockstroh uses his considerable clout to call attention to and hopefully fix problems. Want to give that a shot? I think he will cover areas up the penninsula too. It's also on-line. Just an idea, and it's free.
Erin

lol sail-away, I see great minds think alike (and simultaneously) or fools never differ :)

One thing that sail-away mentioned that I want to emphasize: to make you *whole* would involve handling whatever damage came to your cabinets as a result of the counter. So if it comes to it, don't assume you need to absorb that cost yourselves-- you *shouldn't* have to, it wasn't your fault--and if the fabricator had acted honorably *faster*, cabinet damage could have been avoided and the counter could have been changed out without any of this mishegas. SO, if it comes to it, please remember to include the cabinets as part of the damages.

Its kind of like when we were kids and you did something wrong and instead of owning up to it you kept covering it up and covering it up and covering it up until there came a point where you finally had to own up to your mistake, but by that point the lies were so big and the damage was already done. If they had just dealt with this from day one in a responsible manner this would have all been behind them and you'd be telling a totally different story about how great CS was to find the crack, and admit that they couldn't work with it and immediately replace it. They could have changed the entire outcome by simply acting professionally from the beginning.

Thank you everyone! Great ideas! You all always make me feel better!

And thanks expecially to Sarschlos for starting this thread! Because now this thread comes up when you google Creative Stoneworks (of Oakland on Adeline st marbleguys.com).

For more past history to anyone finding this thread, see my old thread "My soapstone has a 20 inch crack."

:-)

I did mention this site to the owner, and I think that helped move him in the "refund direction." But he also started ranting about slander and his attorney.

Remember: everything I've written about Creative Stoneworks is my personal opinion, based on my personal experience. I am not drawing conclusions about the company or their practices, just stating my personal opinion, which I believe I have the right to do.

Francy

Here is a link that might be useful: History of the 20 inch crack (loooong thread)

and nothing you have said has been untrue! If anyone reads this they'll see your very calm, very rational, very reasonable posts and they'll see very unprofessional responses from Creative Stoneworks.

Francy, I have been following your saga since the day you started your kitchen remodel. My heart just breaks for you. So much angst over something that should have been properly addressed by the fabricator and stone provider immediately. Surely you did not crack the stone yourself in the short time it was in your possession. Please accept my condolences in the way you've been treated and for a dream kitchen that is not.

Jodi-

I'm glad I could help, Francy. I would suggest, though, that it sounds like the fabricator wants to get lawyers involved. Therefore, it might be prudent to end the internet discussions until a resolution can be reached. I would feel terrible if you were stuck with the costs of defending a lawsuit on top of redoing your kitchen AGAIN. Keep in mind that no matter how frivolous or wrong-headed a legal claim may seem to you, you will still need to defend it if they decide to pursue a libel or defamation claim.

I'm glad Creative Stoneworks is getting some well deserved bad press, as well. In addition to the numerous comments about how Francy has been so patient in trying to deal with this company and give them the benefit of the doubt (and NEVER said anything that wasn't true), I would just like to note, for the record, that the first time Francy mentioned Creative Stoneworks by name was in a positive way. That was back when the soapstone was first being installed and she had every expectation of having a good job done by them. Even if she had never given us the name of this difficult, contentious, unhelpful company, when the problems came to light, we all could have found it for ourselves by looking back at this post.

I have been remembering how she posted a picture of the sign that they brought with them with their company named and noted, with amusement, that they had made a mistake in printing their own name! Perhaps that was a harbinger of the slipshod manner in which they do things, but we didn't realize it at the time.

Here is a link that might be useful: Francy's post when soapstone was being installed

Posted by sarschlos_remodeler '...I would suggest, though, that it sounds like the fabricator wants to get lawyers involved. Therefore, it might be prudent to end the internet discussions until a resolution can be reached. I would feel terrible if you were stuck with the costs of defending a lawsuit on top of redoing your kitchen AGAIN. Keep in mind that no matter how frivolous or wrong-headed a legal claim may seem to you, you will still need to defend it if they decide to pursue a libel or defamation claim.'

I BEG to differ with your advice. The reason there has been progress at all was because pressure has been applied! This forum WILL HELP WIN THIS CASE SHOULD THIS END UP IN COURT! Francy has a problem and we all know this is not being handled well.

Please allow me to encourage you to continue writing and posting, Francy. FEAR of writing the TRUTH in this forum is false fear.

I share a very real 'seminar' I took concerning this kind of 'fear'.

As the judge in our case reminded all parties, the truth speaks volumes and will set you free. I strongly add, 'Just keep good records. Do not be malicious with your claims, just state the facts with as many glaring photos as you can print and post.'

How the public reacts to what horrors any of us may go through is not the problem or a thing to fear. You cannot be held for defamation or libel if you tell the TRUTH in a forum such as this one about how this has affected YOU. HOW you speak (or write) the truth is very important.

Dealing with cabinet makers and stone masons is not a regulated industry in our state of Florida and I doubt in many states. If state legislatures do not regulate this VERY EXPENSIVE INDUSTRY, the WE, the PUBLIC, has sought out a venue to help us seek guidance on how to deal with situations that we find ourselves in doing a remodel.

WE NEED FORUMS like this to help keep us from making costly mistakes. With all due respect to the many wonderful professionals that offer wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to us here on GW, please note that not every person out there in business cares like you do. There are more 'professionals' out there that are stingy with knowledge and take shortcuts with industry standard techniques. These forums teach us how to do, so we can do ourselves, or supervise others to do a job for us correctly without cutting corners to cause a job to fail, or waste materials.

There are too many shysters are out there waiting to prey on the ignorant Public. WE EXIST HERE to make sure that others do not make the hideous mistakes or pay for expensive 'seminars' as others have. WE share our stories and willingly take the time to be a LIVING LIFE EXAMPLE for others, so they know what 'NOT to do', as well as, genuinely advise and guide through the many facets of remodeling. There is so much to learn and so many opportunities to fall and fail with expensive financial repercussions.

This is a forum for advice, encouragement, and warning about dealing with the pitfalls of doing a kitchen remodel; so that We, the Public, are not taken advantage or screwed in our dealings improving our homes.
WE ARE sharing our experiences. IF any one of us shares the actual business name of someone that does not perform to an industry standard, then we most certainly can post photos to defend our claims. IF the business does not like what is published, they have every right to do the right thing and make good on what they were hired to do or correct a problem. IF someone publishes a lie, whether in print or speech, then by all means, prove a liar to be a liar.... the courts do have a place for such claims.

I know each of us are equally willing to praise and recommend businesses for their good works here, too.

Using myself as an example, the cabinet maker we hired did perform a bait and switch number on us and delivered cabinets with 'shoddy' workmanship. I published this on the Internet and in this forum. CabFiascoGuy wanted to sue me for libel and defamation after our court case. The Judge agreed with me and put in our Final Judgment that our claims (that he did not build what we hired him to build WERE TRUE) AND that his workmanship on our cabinets was shoddy.

Keep all evidences of any perceived negative claims that you make, just in case you should end up in court. Take many photos along the way and keep a detailed diary. Get written opinions from other professionals for any faulty work. Print off anything you write online and keep good records until all is settled and done. Cases can pop up when you least expect, so do not throw away records for some time.

Our situation has cost us over twice as much as the entire project should have originally cost. Keep talking here on GW, keep detailed records and photos no matter what now, tell the truth, and Caveat Emptor; Let the Buyer Beware.

Here is a link that might be useful: Our Final Judgment

Sherilynn, I believe you misunderstood me. Francy's fabricator has been threatening her with lawsuit for libel. That's different than a lawsuit by Francy. I am simply suggesting that the better part of valor when money is already tight is to avoid having to go to the expense of defending a lawsuit in the first place. I understand that you have gone through a very difficult time, and it is no fun at all to be a party to a lawsuit. That was my point.

Francy, I don't have anything very constructive to add, but lots and lots of sympathy and support. It's always a pain when something goes wrong, but in your case, when you're asking so little of the world, and have spent your small budget trying to get just a couple of lovely things to improve your living circumstances, and it goes wrong, it's just so unfair! A ((((HUG)))) for you!

So my not so constructive thing to add is that in some ways it seems as if your kitchen redo is cursed! The first set of cabinets, okay, those things happen, but when you hire pros to do a pro job and they mess up and even make it hard to correct? I don't know what you believe in, or what works for you, but have you thought of trying to reverse the bad juju? Have a blessing? Have all your friends and loved ones to the kitchen for a pray-in? Invite in the fairies? Shoo the bad spirits? Any belief system, except maybe rational empiricism, has some way of re-establishing good vibes :)

Francy, sarschlos is so right, " ...it is no fun at all to be a party to a lawsuit." However it is fun to be vindicated and have your problem corrected.
I missed hearing about you being threatened by the fabricator. SHAME, on him. I hope the ill justice he is serving you backfires on him ten-fold if he does not make this right. I speak blessing to you and hope this is settled swiftly in your favor. I am praying for you, too.

If your fabricator has any conscience and semblance of decency, I am asking him right now to please replace this stone for you as soon as possible. The bad advertisement is the only thing that will come from this for a long time. People hear will be warning others about his business for a long time.

It's AMAZING how many people save these threads for future reference. I remember a thread 'falling off' GW and how people kept re posting it so as to be a warning to others about a business. I'll have to see if I have it saved....

Fabricator, Please, help us all feel good about you. We really want to like you.

I would much rather see a case about francy's crack on The People's Court then all the cases about people on crack buying cell phones for other people on crack who don't pay their bills.

Raynag suggested small claims court. I think you should consider that option. We had to sue a contractor in northern California and it was much easier than I thought. The contractor played games and counter-sued us. We came to court with a notebook full of documentation, including notations of all phone and email communications, receipts, details about the job, etc. The contractor sent his wife to court. He didn't even come in himself. The judge asked what their defense was. She kind of sputtered a few things and the judge said there was no defense, threw out the countersuit and found in our favor. It was pretty painless. Your case may be more complicated because the stone supplier is involved as well. But perhaps M. Tex can provide documentation stating that they replace any stone if the fabricator discovers it is cracked. Then that shifts responsibility to Creative Stoneworks. BTW, I believe the limit for small claims in California is $7500. Good luck!

Francy - you sound so depressed and enervated. I just feel terrible for you.

One thing I want to mention, FWIW, is that I have several seams on my peninsula - - I have a fairly large expanse of stone on it. The seams don't bother me at all. M Teix did a great job of concealing them. I don't know if the remnants are still available, but it's something you might want to consider. Of course, theres still the issue of getting the existing countertop removed.

Two other things. First, it can't get any worse, can it? You are feeling as bad as one can possibly feel about a botched kitchen job and it can only get better from here.

Second, while I know I was originally one of the GW'ers who was spurring you to action and saying that you shouldn't stand for it, if it were me, I might re-consider that position right now. ThereÂs no question in my mind about whoÂs at fault here, and that you *should* be made whole, but you have to decide if itÂs worth fighting a battle that will undoubtedly be nasty and unpleasant and entail significant turmoil and anxiety, or whether you might want to walk away from it with your particular style of grace and integrity. As a wise person said on the other thread, if you had bought the house with the crack already in place, you might have thought it was charming. Could you learn to love your counters, even with the crack? And could you look at the crack and instead of getting a sick feeling of dread and disappointment, think of all the GWÂers out here who think youÂre great and whoÂve been so impressed with how youÂve handled the situation? And think about how bad things happen, but sometimes itÂs in your best interest and the best interest of your family to accept the bad thing and move on? And think about the refund youÂll get from your fabricator, and how youÂve used it to improve your familyÂs financial situation? And if the counter becomes unstable at some point in the future, you will deal with it then.

Anyway, thatÂs the touchy-feeling part of me talking. The other part of me  the lawyer part - says you could absolutely pursue this more aggressively. ItÂs just not so clear to me what I would do at this point.