I am also having problems with my finished paint. It is semi gloss oil based, over oil based primer, prepped well. I think mine has been thinned with things to help it dry quickly and level. It is thinned to the point where it loses it's color, is not smooth, almost looks like a primer. Your statement, "Runing my hand down the doors or door frames makes the paint feel almost rough with barely a sheen" sounds just like my doors.

You can take a look at my previous post. The painter will be back tomorrow and I will confront him then. I too am in CA.

It sounds as if your painter is thinning it too much.

I don't understand why painters try to thin the paint. Most of the cost in their paint quote is for the labor, not the product. That is why you can save so much $$ in doing it yourself. I think it has to do with being easier to paint, like painting with water, no brush strokes....

I hope he's not thinning it! That's certainly a question to ask. I know he used Floetrol as I picked some up for him when I went to change out the trim paint.
That's a really interesting question. I'm gonna call the paint store and see if they can shed some light on this one.
Sharb it's good to know I'm not alone in this...

I just got off the phone with the guy at the BM store. He said that we should definitely use the oil based primer and then the water based paint. Secondly, he said that the good paints like BM and P&L don't need thinning like the cheaper stuff. Geeesh! He suggested feather sanding then re-priming with the oil based then repaint WITHOUT thinning. We should see a much more normal texture. Oh carp! Now I have to have a confrontation!

I just looked up Floetrol and someone asked "What happens if I add too much Floetrol to the paint? Answer was: You may start to lose hiding power.

That may be your problem Compumom..

I don't know what my painter added, but it is not covering. I will confront my painter tomorrow when he arrives at 7 AM.

Thanks Sharb!
What part of CA? I'm in L.A.

I live in Canada. Obviously the practice of thinning by some (not all) painters spans the continent. I have been there and done that and it is stressful. Good luck to both of you.

Hello compumom!
I kind of envy you CA.-types! We'll have a HIGH-temp today of 12deg, and may dip below 0 here in Fargo, ND overnight...Oooffda. (There goes my Norwegian ancestry again!)
....On to your paint....
>>> I'm always surprised at how many painter's feel the need to thin what they're applying! It's simply not necessary if the top paints and brushes in each line are used. If sprayed on, some paints benefit from SLIGHT thinning, depending on equipment, etc.
>>> ...kind of scares me when your "PAINTER" says you can't use latex over oil! It's done all the time! Our ACE technical-data manuals describe benefits of it too. Oil-base primer can sometimes absorb INTO wood slightly better than latex-resins can, therefore providing a good "grip"-base for latex topcoats. Over time, the latex paints stay more flexible, whereas oils just keep getting "stiffer".
>>> Many products say so right on the can that latex is perfectly acceptable over oil primers.
>>> For the smoothest finishes, good diy-ers/painters sand the well-dried primecoat, and apply two coats of finish color with top-quality brushes. If REALLY fussy, some lightly sand the dried 1st coat of paint. This implies more than one day for doors and trim ($$$), but it usually looks great.

See ya!
Faron

Well, I just confronted the painter and handed over my new gallon of paint with instructions to absolutely "do not thin". We'll see. One comment from him was "it will go on too thick". I said, "I like it thick"...

Compumom, I'm in OC, Costa Mesa to be exact.

Faron, I think it's to be about 70 or so today.. Small world though. I have a little house in ND! Actually north ND, so very cold. I have completely restored it and painted most of it myself. We try to get there a couple times a year. Yes, I get the Uff Da!

I too don't understand why the painters feel the need to "thin"... Have never understood it, that's why I end up painting a lot myself.

Good luck today Compumom..

Just finished our "talk". He tells me he has to thin to not see the brush strokes in the paint. I'm suspecting his brushes aren't too great. He told me the guys in the paint store sell paint, they don't paint. The G.C. on the job just left a message on my cell phone not at all addressing the issues but other construction related stuff. I'm frustrated. He did sand some more for a smoother feel yesterday, but he's insisting he needs to thin somewhat. ACCCKKKK! I'm leaving now for work but putting another call in to the GC ASAP!

And he said that my other doors in the house--that are 30 years old and are super smooth are that way due to many coats of paint over time. I don't know if that's true and he said a water base never feels as smooth as oil base. Is that true?

Hello again Sharb & Compumom,

The comment "paint store guys don't paint" doesn't surprise me. We're kind of an upscale Decorating-center/Hardware-store here.
>>> Very busy with new construction painting, diy-ers, redecorating jobs, etc. We go through a LOT of ACE Royal, Ralph Lauren, & now C2 (we're the only place between Chicago and Colorado with C2).
>>> We don't mess around with "budget-lines" of paint. They cause the most problems!
>>> Our "paint staff" is a very knowledgeable group we feel.
>>> I have done a fair amount of painting myself, and we regularly visit with the painting contractors who use our products (& others) to get the pulse of what people like out there.
>>> Obviously, Michael's advice is invaluable here also. He seems to be a painter REALLY know what he's talking about. If you ask most painters if you should wash a wall, they'd probably give you a blank stare. Michael does it I believe.
>>> Most technical manuals I've seen STRESS washing most walls before priming.
>>> There's so much "mis-information" out there that it's hard to change some attitudes. We try our best to educate our clients on why priming is so important; as well as actual techniques...Ralph L's "Suede" and "River-Rock" applications for example.

I got a little wordy here, but not all "paint guys" just sell paint!
Thanks!
Faron

I disagree with your painter about your doors being super smooth because of many coats of paint. I had new wainscoting going up my staircase, put in maybe 10 years ago. It was painted with a high gloss oil based paint was was still so smooth and beautiful until these painters started working on it. I have just added additional wainscoting and so all needed to be painted the same color. The old, beautiful, smooth wainscoting, is now rougher, not as shiny, etc., after they painted with their thinned down paint.

Paint and lighting are the two things that I am fussy about and things have really fallen apart here. So frustrating.

I painted 9 new Marvin wood windows in my little ND house. Primed with oil base primer, 2 coats of paint, sanded between, etc. They turned out beautiful and I didn't thin a thing.

I hope when you get home from work that you will see an improvement.

Hello Sharb (& all here...),
I'm sorry to hear about your wainscoting troubles! Sounds like YOU should be out there painting! Especially up here in the land of snowmen...
Compumom: your painter (I feel) doesn't seem to have a very open mind. A good paint film is only a reflection of what's gone on underneath it...meaning sanding, sheen-eveness, etc.
> IMHO, a premium latex paint applied with a top-notch brush/roller can equal a good oil in smoothness WITHOUT thinning.

Regards from Fargo,
Faron

Thanks so much for all your support, I REALLY appreciate your comments!
I asked DH to go today to the the BM/PL paint store near his work. I told him to ask the same questions and to ask to buy a really good paint brush that won't leave strokes. Hopefully he hasn't thinned all the paint, but told DH maybe to buy a qt of new just in case. I'm tempted to brush it myself and see what happens tonight!
Do I need to re-prime or just lightly sand (what's feather sanding?) and brush it on. Then in the morning I can see if there is a difference. But I'm afraid since I know nothing about painting I'll screw it up big time.
This is so frustrating! The walls look very good, but the the trim...
Sharb- that's very interesting about your wainscoating. I know exactly what you mean, it's so incredibly expensive to do all this work and then to have this aggravation!
DH just called from the paint store. I spoke with this salesguy who said that really 6 panel doors should be sprayed to get the most even finish without brushstrokes. He said the Latex paint dries so fast if you brush one way with the panel and then go back to do the inset, it's dried and left strokes. He also said that the water based paint raises the grain and that it should be sanded and repainted to smooth the grain. He also wasn't negative on Floetrol as he said it would slow the drying time down. Accckkkk!!
What do you think? Can we also get Michael to weigh in here?
Also what is C2 paint?

Good evening folks,
> Compumom: That salesperson had good advice...if you're painting a wood product for the FIRST time, some grain 'fuzzing' will happen; hence the sanding recommendation after primer is well dried.
> Floetrol: It's fine, but some paints can only take just a bit of it-check the cans's label.
> Panel-Doors: Yes, ideally, spraying is the way to go. Our builder takes their doors to an auto-body shop for priming/painting. Many homeowners do get good results with brushing techniques and good equipment.
> I too am waiting for Michael's teachings on door painting!!
> Check C2's website. It's an ultra-premium line of Latex paints/primers. Colors are VERY saturated! C2 uses a 16-colorant european tinting system (colorants made in Finland). Four of the colorants are very high-strength/opacity. Even the remaining 12 colorants are somewhat stronger than 'normal' paint lines. Not very many stores will have C2...THEY tell YOU if a store can have the line, and the up-front investment is pretty hefty. Specific COROB tinting-machines are required, and they're not cheap!
Our decorators RAVE about the colors, and the paint-chips are ACTUAL paint...as are the fandecks. Average retail is $40-$48/gal.

Thanks!
Faron

Here is a link that might be useful: C2 information

Compumom, you might try what I did. The painters had finished painting inside my new pantry. The shelves were not smooth. I bought a can of new paint, barely sanded, and painted just one shelf.. The one shelf looked so much better than the others. I chose that area in case I messed up. This gave me the proof to show the painter.

I'm using oil based, so yes it does dry much slower.

A lot of years ago a painter didn't show up that was supposed to do trim work for us. So, my husband and I did it. My neighbor came over and helped us for about an hour, just to teach us and get us started. He was a large paint contractor at the time. He taught us to paint with the brush and then at the very end to lay the brush almost on it's side as we lightly dragged the brush over what was just done. That made the paint flow together. It was beautiful. I was always proud of that paint job!

I like brushed on paint better than the look of sprayed on. That is just personal preference though. To me the sprayed on can look almost like plastic.

The painters painted all of the pantry shelves over today and they look so much better. The light isn't good in my house at night as a lot of it isn't hooked up yet, so I won't be able to see what all was done and how it turned out until tomorrow. I must have warned him three times to not add to my paint...

I hope yours gets better..

Sharb,
I'm glad to hear your results after "coaching" this particular painter! They prob'ly learned something from you I hope!
See ya,
Faron

I'll let you know more tomorrow afternoon. I will do a quick confront/new brush presentation in the morning and have to run to work. But I will do some looking tonight before I go to bed.
This schedule is a killer!
Faron- There aren't any C2 dealers here in So.Cal so I won't get to see it anytime soon ;~(

It really sounds like they are simply using way too much Floetrol.
You do not need very much.
Even with the best brushes, many of the newer paints are simply too thicck to level very well. About 4 ounces of Floetrol per gallon allow enough time for the film to flatten and brush strokes to disappear.
If you add Floetrol to the 100% acrylic SW full gloss paint, it works and finishes like the alkyd of many years ago. No brush marks and smooth as glass.
Water based paints always raise the grain if applies to new wood. An oil/alkyd primer helps prevent this (but should stil lbe lightly sanded after aplication). If you cannot use oil base primer, sand the latex primer after it has dried at least 24 hours (it needs to be completely dried or it simply 'pills up' when sanded). You can only sand lightly on latex paints. If you go through the film you need to apply another coat and try again. 'Spotting' works sometimes, but it is very easy to create a build up of paint that wil show through the finish layers.
Old woodwrok was primed, then painted with two coats. Sanding after the primer and then after the first coat helped eliminate dust nibs and other defects. After sanding you need to run a tack cloth over the surface to remove all the dust.

Brickeyee, sounds as if you really know what you are doing. I'm not as familiar with the water based paints as I am the oil. My painter used oil based primer on new drywall. At least he did that..

I wonder what Compumom found today when returning home?

As much as I told my painter to not add anything to MY gallon of oil based paint, all of a sudden there is only one gallon... He obviously mixed the two! So frustrating.

No difference. He's insistent that you can't paint waterbase over oilbase. I guess I'll let him finish and then do some other painting in the house with someone else. Then I'll have it done my way. I'm seeing the GC on Monday so I'll work it out then. sigh...

So frustrating. My painter is "done" with a lot of my house and I'm not even going to ask him to fix anything anymore. But, after the holidays, I will sand and paint some of the woodwork myself. I can't believe I paid him what I did and then I have to paint!

Today I've been cleaning and find paint on my granite, cabinets and the new hardwood floor...

The thing is, my painter did a great job of prepping. The primer, the sanding, etc. Then he messes up with the final paint!

Doesn't it make you just want to scream?!!
I had a handyman here today for the first time doing some carpentry. It was an easy job, but I'm not thrilled. For the price and the location it's good enough, but I'm considering painting the trim in that room by myself, and I don't know a thing about painting!

It seems as though the same thing is happening to several people no matter what city or country we live in. I have had the same thinning of paint issue with a painter a few years ago. We have just finished an $$ reno and so many of the tasks were poorly done. It was a very long (we were told 10 weeks and it ended up being 20), very stressful renovation and DH and I are just happy to have the majority of the work completed and the tradesmen out of the house. regardless of some of the shabby work they did. I think at the end you are so worn down that they take advantage (not all, but many contractors do this). Hindsight is 20/20 but I don't think I could ever do another reno.

You said it! Our GC and the main remodel have been excellent quality but the time estimate was sooooo wrong--he said 3 months and it's been 9! I could scream. My warm sweaters are locked inside the 20 ft storage container that's sitting on our driveway. Luckily its just turned cold, it's been quite a warm fall. Anyhoo, today I tried a local handyman to build some simple shelving in a downstairs closet. He bought the stuff at Home Depot and installed. Tonight Dh pointed out how the middle unit was wider at the top than at the bottom...arrrrrrgh! He's coming back tomorrow with a few more shelf clips, he's going to be surprised when Dh tells him he's not done...I'm glad I found out now, before I hired him to do something big...

I feel for all of you! We haven't gotten to the finish work yet, but have had more than enough issues with the framing, window/door installation, roofing, etc. Today I had a confrontation with the GC's on-site (when he feels like it) supervisor. He had the gall to tell me if we didn't keep stopping the work for one reason or another things would be much further along. And I told him if the work was done right in the first place it wouldn't be an issue. I don't know what ever happened to pride in a job well done, but it seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.