Of the two, I prefer Design 1, because without the fridge there, there's no reason to go to that corner and the work area of Design 2 would be crowded by foot traffic to the fridge.

One suggestion -- I'd move your range to right next to the corner in both designs, with the 12" cabinet on the other side. It's really handy to have counter space on both sides of the range, and having it in a corner isn't bad at all, so long as you have a 3" 'spacer' to allow for handles.

I wish there wer a better location for the range, because it's 'sub-optimal' in both designs, but putting it next to the '4' puts it right in the main walkway, which IMO, is even worse...

Can anything structural move? (walls, windows, doors?)

I am bothered by at least a couple of things...Range with no cabinet beside, and bathroom opening into the kitchen. If you have to have permits, I don't know if that will be allowed. It'd be different if it was already there.

Your 'smallest pantry in the world' must be larger than mine if you can fit a toilet and sink in it! ;-)

We need dimensions to see how this really works. It doesn't look like you have room to open a fridge into the aisle by the back door. I'd like to see the fridge rotated to face the room...

What rooms are around the kitchen?

Sweeby - The cabinet to the right of the range is a corner unit that will have a super susan in it. As far as foot traffic to the fridge, it's just the 2 of us and Mr. Q isn't culinarily inclined. My feet will be doing the vast majority of pitter-pattering.

rhome410 - Structural changes: We're already replacing 2 smaller windows on the long outside wall with one big one centered above the sink and taking out the useless back hallway wall to make that space functional. (Right now, the back hall starts somewhere around the b36 cab. Also, the space behind the range right now is the stairs to the cellar. We're closing up that wall and opening up the back of the foyer closet to move the cellar stairs there.

The goofy 'pantry' isn't even really a pantry right now. It's just dumb ;) I have no idea if the PO's made it the way it is or what, but right now there's a base cabinet on the left wall, and the sink on the right, and that's it. The house only has 1 bath at the faaaaaar end up of the hall upstairs, so adding the 2nd bath will be a vast improvement.

The room to the left of the kitchen is the foyer and below is the dining room.

As far as dimensions, I know right now (without the back hall wall coming down), the kitchen is about 10 x 13 (which makes me sad, but the whole package is worth it.)

It might also be useful to know that we're not sure this is going to be our forever house. We're planning the renovations (and cost) with 5-7 years in mind: enough time for the market to (hopefully) recover and for us to decide if we want to stay somewhere with this much snow. If we *do* decide to stay longer, the whole back of the house will be bumped out to make a bigger kitchen and some other useful things.

Thanks for your help so far!

Ananda Q

In Design 1, could you shift the doorway next to the range down 12" so that you could get landing space and cabinets next to the range?

Also, be careful of the fridge next to the wall, depending on your type of fridge, you may not be able to open the door far enough to take out the veggie/deli bins.

I am NO expert whatsoever, but I did notice something - correct me if I'm wrong. Design one looks as if there will be a wall to the right of the refrigerator? Or is it a mistake and the wall doesn't extend that far? If you do a right return door, trio or side by side, that wall might get in the way.
My new trio fridge is against a right wall, shoved as far to the left as possible, and while the right door opens up enough, it won't stay open. If I need both doors open, I open the crisper drawer on the right and that holds it.
It actually hits wainscotting, which I'm going to remove, as it's already put a dent in my new fridge. :(

Does your local code have anything about the range placement? We wouldn't be allowed to have one next to a doorway without a cab next to it. I think the reasoning, someone might come in and put their hand on a hot range.

I'd move the specialty cabinet #4 from where it is in design # 1 & put it next to the frig. the frig space really doesn't look big enough, you should allow for a 36" frig, even if you don't have one. That could be a deal breaker come time to sell the house. Also the frig need to be at least 3" if not farther away from a wall, so doors can open fully & you can pull out bins, so maybe put the cabinet # 4 next to the wall coming in the room & the frig to the left of that.
Then move your stove to the right of the dishwasher spaced evenly between the wall and d.w. I know this isn't the best, but having it at the end of a run & right next to a major traffic doorway is not a good idea. Sorry.
I'd also take the linen closet out of the powder room & make a bigger, but maybe shallower pantry across from new stove location.
Good Luck

Here is a link that might be useful: granite countertops

becktheeng - I'm not 100% sure, but I think the chimney is somewhere in that wall. I can ask my FIL about it.

southernstitcher - in design 1, to the right of the fridge is a countertop with cabinets underneath. I had at one point asked my FIL if he thought there was enough room to have the counter there be wide enough to make it a little 'breakfast bar'/eating space. We've since scrapped that idea, so it will be a regular-width countertop and cabinets there.

eandhl - I know exactly jack-squat about code, but we're having a gas plumber in tomorrow to pressure test the pipes and give us an estimate on putting in a gas line to the kitchen (the furnace is gas already, but the PO's had an electric range). I'll be sure to ask him about that.

About our fridge - we're buying a new bottom-freezer with a door that can be placed on either side. FIL has assured me that in both designs, there's enough room for the door to open freely.

Thanks!

Ananda Q

Can the powder room move to the place you show the fridge in the first plan, so you can create more of a galley kitchen using the right side of the room? Then the powder room might open on the foyer?

I can think of quite a few instances and possible problems for which it would be inadvisable or dangerous to have the side of the stove (and the hot pots on its left burners) open to the people going through that doorway...Grease on the floor, grease or boiling water splashes on people, an arm bumping a hot pot or the handle of a pot sending it flying...

If you haven't changed the windows yet, can you show us where they are now? And what walls are there? I'd like to see if it's possible to put the range and sink on that wall...a centered big window might be a bad thing.

And there's a potty in your kitchen.

rhome410 - Like I said to becktheeng, I think the chimney is somewhere in that wall, so if the bathroom were there, it would still have to open to the kitchen. Plus I think it's weirder to walk in someone's front door and be looking at their potty than it is for it to be off the kitchen. Then again, almost every house I've lived in had a/the bathroom off the kitchen, so maybe I'm the weird one :)

fori - I'm going to get a layout of the current kitchen and will post it as soon as I do.

Thanks!

Ananda

rhome410 wrote:
I am bothered by at least a couple of things...Range with no cabinet beside, and bathroom opening into the kitchen. If you have to have permits, I don't know if that will be allowed. It'd be different if it was already there.

Do you mean that a bathroom opening into the kitchen might not allowed by permit?

I'm just trying to understand, as I'm currently figuring out my kitchen layout and we've got the existing (1950's) bathroom and if there's a likely "must change with new remodeling" dictate, then I want to be aware up front. ;-)

Thanks in advance!

Local codes vary but if the bathroom was there and you are not moving it, I believe it could stay just where it is.

The stove next to the doorway is an issue even if allowed by code, one because as someone said you could come in and put your hand on it. The other is knocking a pan off the stove .

If the door of the refrigerator extends beyond the wall to its side, the door will swing outside the confines of the wall. (Ref in back) With the refrigerator in the lower corner position, refer to the specs and that will tell you how much room you need on the hinge side for the door to swing open properly. It is usually somewhere around 4". I actually put refrigerators in this location a lot (next to walls) because I tend to design small kitchens and like to get the bulky stuff out of the middle)

What does the doorway on the right (above the bathroom) lead to?

remodelfla - The backyard :)

I had to chime in and say that I have a stove next to a doorway similar to yours. I have to agree with some of the posts here, get the stove to have cabinets on either side (wish mine did). I've had the issue of people coming down the doorway and bumping into the pot handles.

Adding up the cab dimensions, the room as drawn is way bigger than 10x13, so my attempt at a layout is using the room as drawn. I boxed the frig in with panels to make it look built in. I moved the powder room fixtures to the opposite wall so the door could slide down, that way it feels more like it's coming in from a hall rather than the kitchen proper. I slid that window over, too. I put the range in the corner which uses a lot of space, but gives you landing space on either side and protects the range from passers-by. It also makes it a clearer shot to the outdoors for venting. Since the window isn't there yet, I slid it over. The view from the doorway at the bottom will now be out the window. The recycling center is still by the outside door, but I moved all food storage to the bottom left corner. I put a drop zone/message center in. I'm not sure if you need one since there wasn't one in your initial plan.

laxsupermom - the 10x13 is the current kitchen, not including what is now the back hallway area. Everything from after the dishwasher to the powder room is closed off right now. I like where you put the fridge and I already asked the FIL about arranging it that way. I didn't get much of an answer, just "it wouldn't gain you any room over design 1." I'll ask for a more detailed answer. The window placement in the kitchen is still adjustable, but the one in the powder room is already there, so I can't move that. I didn't plan for a message center since I work from home :D

For the range, I agree with all of you that it could be a safety hazard, even without having kids around. I'm really reluctant to use up the whole corner though, considering how small the kitchen already is. If it's possible, I like becktheeng's idea of scootching the doorway over a foot or so and adding a cabinet between the doorway and the range.

Great ideas so far, guys!

Ananda

I dont' have the good software for drawing so I'll try and explain what I'm thinking. Would it be possible to close up the doorway to the outside, eliminate the bump where you have the frig/bumped out part of bath and move the doorway to the outside down there? That would net you a fair amount of additional countertop real estate and give you some more options for range placement. Hope I made sense.

I lost track of this thread somehow. Laxsupermom, that is a super layout! Much improved.

If you plan to have kids here, the stove should be protected (or, actually, set so the people are protected from it), and for resale, the extra counter space and less crowded back door will be more appealing to possible future buyers. No offense intended to your very well-meaning father-in-law, but either of those original layouts would keep me from buying the house. Laxsupermom's looks like an attractive and innovative use of the space, and while it's still a small kitchen, there aren't red flags jumping at me.

If you're putting that bathroom in new, it almost certainly is a building code issue - most places, they won't let you do it.

Here's another idea. If you can I would close off the entrance on the right. Not sure if it leads to the dining room. The pantry would be your highest cabinet height and would give you loads of storage in the cabinets. The range still isn't in the optimal space, but it will give you room on the right for prep work. You would have to spend a bit more and get a cabinet depth fridge, but it will make your kitchen much nicer.

Looking at it again with the fridge cabinet depth you can change it out with the range if you can't move your gas line, and if you're more comfortable cooking where it was. If you do put the fridge where the range is now you can do a wider one to compensate for the lack of depth, or do a little desk message center area there, or a wine cooler under the counter.

If you can close the wall where #4 is, I would put your range on that wall. Can any of those entrances be removed?

Could you flip the frig to the other corner of the L in supermoms layout?

I feel that last would be much more efficient and pleasant to cook in than any of the others, and something very attractive could be created from that pantry wall. If it were mine, I'd devote the left side of the sink to cleanup and the right side and stove area to cooking, probably extending my work counter all or most of the way to the corner (a narrow pullout for most-used ingredients might be very nice there). If bath placement were an issue in your county, an argument could be made that it was not in the kitchen at all.

Can you get rid of any of the entrances into the kitchen? You can also move the range wall out maybe to give you more room. You can also make the wall I've moved out shorter and enlarge the pantry area or add a desk area. You can open the wall I closed off on the bottom if you need it but closing it would let you have a larger bathroom or a linen closet there.

I like Blondelle's idea, except my only concern would be all the crossing in front of that doorway from sink to cooktop. Can you do as Rosie said, put the range to the right of the stove? You could then have that entire area(where Blondelle) currently has the range as a breakfast/snack area/coffee area?

another idea(not sure if it's been mentioned) if you want to keep the range where you have it in your first layouts, can you shift that opening into the kitchen from the stairs futher south so you can add a 24" cabinet to the left of the range. You could even maybe do a pony wall for additional protection.

Is there another door to the backyard? Maybe a slider in the DR or something? If so, I really like Blondelle's #4 plan. If that's the only door to the yard, I'd want the cook zone more protected from traffic, but with other options to get to the yard, the kitchen looks very efficient.

Hi everyone! Ok, for clarification, the doorway to the right goes to a small back porch, and we really don't want to move both the door and the porch somewhere else. Also, this is the only access to the backyard, so we do need it. The doorway to the left goes to the foyer. The doorway at the bottom goes to the dining room.

blondelle - I'm pretty sure both of your new designs were contingent on closing off the back door space and moving it elsewhere, which we don't want. I'm wondering about closing off the left side though, the door to the foyer, to make that one continuous wall. Do you like that idea more than moving the wall down a foot to make an extra cabinet next to the range?

As far as the surrounding rooms, if you're looking at the front of the house, you walk up the front stairs onto the porch, enter the front door and you're in the foyer. To the left is the stairwell heading upstairs, to the right is the living room and in front of you is the kitchen. The living room leads to the dining room and the dining room to the kitchen (I'm told this is pretty much a four-square design, with a foyer as one of the 4). If we closed up the wall between the kitchen and the foyer, we'd have to get to the kitchen either from the backyard (when coming home with groceries) or the dining room. Anyone see a problem with that?

As far as the 1/2 bath, I've been unable to find anything in the Massachusetts code that disallows it. While my Google-fu is strong, this certainly isn't my area of expertise, so I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows more specifics about MA.

Ananda

Ananda,
I think it would be really helpful if you could post a whole house layout. You've done such a great job of describing things but it's so much easier to SEE the pathways through your home. Instinct tells me that it WOULD be a problem if I couldn't easily access the kitchen from the front door but I may be completely wrong with your home.

I do think getting rid of the doorway to the foyer could open up much better possibilities for you. The downside would be a more round about access to the powder room from the rest of the house and the fact that the opening to the powder room would be even more in the middle of the kitchen.

I wouldn't depend on a google search to find out about a code like this...I would call the inspector or plan-check section of your local building department. If it's like our building dept, even if the person who answers the phone tells you it's OK, it might be disallowed when they do the official plan check :-\ ...So be sure you talk to someone who actually signs off on plans, and document the conversation. We usually have to call first thing in the morning to talk to an inspector before he goes out on inspection rounds.

Absolutely you have to keep the door to the outside! And I'd also keep a circular flow. It just tends to work so nicely. So, Blondelle's second design is really nice. How about doing that but putting the door to the dining room (possible?) where she has a closet. This would give you a nice little wall (displaying a piece of art?) as a view from the dining room, instead of the kitchen sink.

I forgot to say that Blondelle's last plan is very nice. Not so great to have traffic past the stove, but if it's not an often used traffic path, it makes a nice kitchen with a great pantry, and has the powder room separated. I would certainly want the doorway to the dining room where that little section is between pantry and powder room.

The first design has all your original entrances left open. I didn't close off anything. The second one closed one entrance on the bottom, but you can easily leave that open too and not affect the design any. Just leave the doorway instead of the closet there.

I don't think closing the door on the left will make as much difference to your kitchen as not have the one near #4. You still didn't tell us where that one leads.

I agree that reposting your original plan with a note as to where all these entrances lead would be a huge help. I can't help your further unless I know which if any can go. Oh, and you're very welcome...geez!

Blondell's blended.
{{!gwi}}

blondelle - My apologies - A thousand thank you's for all your hard work! Also, here's the original design with surrounding doors labeled:

remodelfla - Here's a layout from the home appraisal. It specifies that it's not to scale:

Thining about it more, I think closing the doorway between the kitchen and foyer would look weird. My alternate new thought was to take some space from the foyer:

{{!gwi}}

Don't fear for the awesome pillars... if we did bump out the wall, we'd move them to the wall between the living room and dining room (which is where the pillars in my current apartment are)

Thanks to everyone so far!

Ananda

Yes, that works better. I was trying not to move any doors, but that would give you better flow. I was looking at it after posting and I don't think you need any wall at all on that peninsula. I would take out that piece of back wall too up to the range until where it becomes the bathroom wall, and leave it all open. If made a little shorter, and the linen closet less deep you could even get one small stool on the end, and another on the closet side.

To confuse you further here's another option which opens the kitchen to the dining room, and still gives access from the foyer although not as direct. I've never had a wall oven so I'm not sure if it needs to be closer to the range. The fridge is also in the path of the back yard exit, but I guess you can't have it all ;-).

blondelle - I'm not quite sure where the wall oven came from, since I just had plans for a range. But if you can talk my husband into paying for them, I'm game ;)

I may asking the impossible but ... couple of questions. Is the wall between the kitchen and DR load bearing? Can the entrance (by the kitchen) to the bathroom be closed up, the bath fixtures moved to the north wall, and a new bath entrance be put on the DR side? I really have no good reason why I'm thinking this 'cept that it may open up some more layout possibilities.

You can put a slide in range in the peninsula instead of a cooktop if you like, and use the space where the wall oven is for something else. What do you think of the space opened up like that? You can put a gorgeous decorative hood over the range.

I like the plan that blondelle came up with but I would switch the wall oven and the pantry and quite possibly the frige and the wall oven, I didn't care for any of the plans that had the stove next to a traffic area. Seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I was going to suggest when I saw your design #1 first to extend that wall at the base of the stairs a bit and then put a cabinet next to the left side of stove this way you have a landing area which I think you would appreciate. I like to stand next to my skillet and chop up stuff and add as I go with no counter there it's going to be a problem. The other thing I was going to suggest is get rid of the huge closet area in the powder room. You really don't need the storage there as you will in the kitchen so get rid of that cause it is really too deep anyway and put in one big walk in panty for kitchen this would be the way I go.

blondelle - I have a free-standing range. We'd considered doing something to the wall between the kitchen and the dining room. We looked and there are plumbing pipes in that wall that could certainly be rerouted, but in the end I decided it wouldn't really be in character for the type of house anyway. Your last design also takes out the wall between the foyer and living room, and I'm pretty sure the chimney is at that junction. I really do appreciate all your help though!

Looking at the other ideas, I do like your design called "design #1", the first one where you moved the range to what's now the back hall. Mr. Q is concerned about the range being in the traffic space to the back door, especially since a range has a door that opens down, not out like a fridge. So, what if we stuck with the idea of not having any closets on that wall but put the fridge there and kept the range where it was in my first design, but with the doorway moved down an extra foot or so to make a small cabinet next to the range to clear up that safety issue. Where I had the "#4" pantry/recycling cabinet could become the coat closet and the pantry could be across the room in the lower left corner area. Whaddaya think?

Ananda

Joined in a bit late on this one. Just wanted to know which way the front door opened. Also, the wood work in the photo looks very inviting. What style home is this?

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Designs