Susiequsie, you've done a great job with the scale floorplans, and elevations, and making them legible for onscreen viewing, and embedding them!! You have every right to be proud of yourself!

What I absolutely don't get is the island in the breakfast room. What's it for? Why not a table? Is it a buffet staging area for the dining room? Storage? I think there may be better ways of handling the functions I can think of besides a fixed island. It's not convenient enough to the kitchen for prep work, especially with the "view" being the driveway--unless there's a killer view beyond that? And if it's that good, why do the sitters have to stare at a blank wall or into the DR? Also, for actually eating together, an arrangement where people are facing each other, or at least in an L shape or on a curve, is much nicer.

Please explain!

The wine holders flanking the window look cute, but aren't really good for the wine (most kitchen wine racks are in terrible locations for storing wine. Yours is just not ideal). Won't they eat a lot of your counter space? Best place to store wine is in a dark space that has as little temperature variation as possible. Therefore, even in a temperate climate, an exterior wall isn't a good choice. Often, while not romantic, the best place in a house is the bottom of the hall closet. :)

Also, are you sure you don't want any counter in the breakfast room? Not even a place to put aside a bowl of fruit or basket of mail when you want to clear off the island (or table or whatever)? Or even a place to set something down that you've taken from a high cabinet?

If I'm reading right, you have a 5' aisle in the kitchen. That's a bit big for optimum, though, obviously, since it's the path in through the mudroom, it's useful. I'd be tempted to bring the sink counter out to 30", and clip the corner by the door, to have more workspace. I don't know if that's available in the cabinets you're using, or affordable, but it would be nice.

I would also suggest more drawers! One can put just about anything in drawers, and they're much nicer to get into than lower cabinets.

In general, it's a workable kitchen. What are your constraints regarding cabinetry, budget, breakfast room?

pillog - I could kiss you for for responding to my post...but I'll contain myself!!

To answer the easy parts first: As far as the wine holders, I was really doing that just for looks. I plan on using that area as my "bar" for any dinners/parties we have here. I thought it would be a cute look and didn't really think about how smart it actually was. (And before anyone mentions a sink over there - we can't afford it.) I'm not married to the wine holder idea...as a matter of fact I've been questioning whether or not I even want them. (It was really something I mentioned the very first day to our builder and he repeated it to the cabinet guy...) If we don't put in the wine racks, do you think we should still have the uppers come all the way down to the countertop - giving it a more "built in" or "real furniture" kind of look? I think I'll have plenty of counter space so I'm not sure I mind giving that up. I'm not sure what will look nicer.

Your the second person to suggest more drawers. Do you think I should put all drawers on the sink wall as well? My husband likes the idea of a pull-out garbage, and I'm not sue we could fit that under the sink. I do plan on putting a garbage disposal under there, and I just don't know about room. Would it be OK to use one of the bases on the sink wall for drawers, and leave the others with the doors?

I wouldn't mind putting a counter in the breakfast room...not sure we can afford it though. The reason we are taking down the cabinets on the back wall (the same wall as the sink) is because we want to "open up" that door between kitchen and breakfast room to try to give the appearance of one large room, rather than 2 distinctly separate rooms. Right now it is truly 2 rooms. Without any cabinets on the wall, the opening can be much larger.

Not sure what you mean about "clipping" the corner by the door. I'm guessing that you mean that the entire sink wall base cabinet run would be 30" deep, but would that affect my bookcase?

Now...on to that island. How silly is it that I really truly have always wanted an island in my kitchen? A place to stand around and socialize. A place where people can sit (or stand) and talk to me while I work in the kitchen. We have it set-up so that if you are sitting at the island, you should be able to see into the main work area of the kitchen (the sink, the range, alot of the countertop.) I would definitely also use it as a "buffet" area for big meals in the dining room. (I'm a good Italian girl who tends to cook way way too much food to actually fit on the table!)

I am a little conflicted about having the island and having NO table. I posted about it before. Both of my kids are in college. I can see my husband and I sitting together at that island to eat dinner at night. I can also see the 4 of us eating there when they are home. I also have a 4-person table a little ways down the hall from my kitchen, sort of over-looking my family room. Right now, we eat alot of our meals there. The only time I can really see missing an actual kitchen table is for holiday dinners. Usually what I do is make a "kids table" (although my 19 year old son is currently the youngest "kid") in the kitchen, at our current table. However, I think I have that worked out. I saved our original dining room table (a drop leaf) and it currently lives quietly in front of a window in my living room, with some photos on it. My living room and dining room are separated by only a small entry foyer. I could totally see setting up that drop leaf table right in the living room to accommodate part of the crowd.

I will admit that I do have my concerns about the island looking "lost" in the room....or maybe too much like it's just floating out there. I don't think I could totally give-up my island, but I'm definitely open to other suggestions on how to improve on it or change it up a bit.

Thanks - SQ

Hi Susie,

It took me two years on Gardenweb to figure out how to post pictures right in the text of the message -- so I am mighty impressed that you figured it out. I still don't know how to do the Boxperpup trick of multiple pictures.

It looks like you have a big and interesting space to work with. I look forward to hearing what others suggest. My one suggestion at this point is that perhaps an island height table (rather than a real built-in island) might give you some of the socializing function you'd like to achieve, while still keeping the breakfast room feel.

I really really want people to tell me what they think, but I'm feeling a little sad about my island. Not sad enough that I don't want people to make suggestions, but just sad that something I'm so attached to might not be the best way to go.

Again - I'm going to be really honest here. If having an island isn't the most efficient or most intelligent use of the space, I can live with that. What I CAN'T live with if it looks odd or somehow "not right." Another big part of having the island in the breakfast room was to bring the cabinetry in there, again, making it look like a real part of the kitchen. I'm a little afraid that if I have only the one wall of cabinetry, and then a kitchen table, I'm going to be right back where I am now - a galley kitchen with a breakfast room next to it. Budgetary concerns make other moving of walls and things like that impossible, and I was hoping I could accomplish what I wanted in this way. I would really love to hear what others have to say...and I promise I won't make a boo-boo lip if you tell me things I don't really want to hear. I'll be a big girl. Thanks again -

SQ

Hi SQ,

One of my favorite architect designers is Todd Hansen. He did a kitchen a few years ago in which he tied the separate breakfast room into the kitchen with a freestanding island that also functioned as a table. I don't have a photo. But I will direct you to his website if you are interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: Todd Hansen breakfast room

Since you're having so much fun embedded pics... YES... could you please post pics of your current kitchen?

So... I have an idea, kinda. The window in the breakfast area; is it counter height? If it is, what about bringing the cabinetry around the jag in the walls and into the breakfast area. The reason I say that is you can use color to connect the two areas if the cabinets are along the same wall. So, the perimeter cabs would extend through both areas in the same color. For argument sake, lets say medium cherry wood. Then shorter run and island could be in a corresponding color. You may have some constraints that I'm not aware of.

Just really impressed at the embedding of pictures! And thanks to you, after 62 tries now I know how too! Thanks sq :)!!!

I think your island could work... how about shaped more like a half moon? curved edges. space for all 4 of you when the kids are home - and be able to see each other. I'd probably round the other corners a bit too just for safety. but then, I tend to walk into things!

and I'd have all drawers except under the sink. you could put a pull out trash to the right of the sink. That's just like a big drawer really.

Me again. I like the idea of the island. I get it. But, I'd move it right down to the window and make it longer and get more storage out of it. By bringing it down it becomes a better functional part of the kitchen for moving things over for buffet etc.
Yes you can put a pull-out trash, I think most are about 18", and drawers elsewhere. When we did our reno I put in one cupboard (other than the ones under the sinks) "just in case". My kd tried to talk me out of it. I never use it. It has a phone book in it. Fortunately I only wasted 18" on it. Everything else is drawers.

It seems to me that altho there's no great place for your fridge, that the best place might be opposite where you have the pantry in your drawing, to the left of the door into the DR. That way it would be out of the way of traffic into the house through the DR, and would not block light crowded next to the windows on the sink side, a place that doesn't seem a very good choice. Also, with 5' between the counters, it will not block anything, and will not need to be boxed in unless you want to use the space and money that will take. You could shift the range to the left, and would have 18" on each side of it--I wouldn't chop off the end, since you'd be better off with the counter space, and would have a wide enough doorway.

Then you'd have space for a larger pantry, a cleaning closet, a "to go" counter/cabinet which could double as a place to set dishes that are waiting to go into the DR during a big get together, a bench or closet from the mudroom side, or whatever works there for you.

I'd get a non-bulky MW, maybe a GE Spacemaker, and put it to the left of the sink, rather than over the range. That way, it would be easy for someone to get something out of the fridge, use the MW, use the water/sink, and not bother you in the food prep area to the right of the sink. You could either get a 15" deep base cab for under the MW, or get a 12" and move it out and install it at 15", which might cost less to do than buying a 15" deep cabinet depending on what cab line you get. Also, you could then vent the range properly with a real hood.

I can appreciate how much you might want an island, and maybe someone can come up with one that works. But it's not feeling right to me because of where the kitchen is, and how long the room is--just seems like a table would be better. I don't remember from what you've said elsewhere, but how often and how many people would there be to talk with you while you're cooking? If it's usually your DH, it looks like there would be room to put a comfortable chair with a small table next to it in the left rear corner and keep the kitchen table and chairs centered on the windows. If it's visitors/other family, it looks like there is enough space to put a pretty and comfortable window seat under the left window. But most likely, someone would just sit at the end of the table to talk to you, or turn around one of the chairs there to face you.

I don't remember if you said how long you have been working on this layout, and how soon you have to finalize it. I can only say that I worked on my house plans for several years before we built, and finally decided to give up several things that I'd really wanted because they just didn't feel right in the end, no matter how hard I tried to make them work. I'm a function over form person, tried to get both, and really wanted things to look nice. Some things I achieved, some I didn't, but I'm content over all.

Just some thoughts.

Anne

Hi Susie. I really hate to say it, but I don't understand the island placed like it is. Sorry! It just looks like a big room next to the kitchen, not part of the kitchen. It seems like you have a lot of wasted space with this arrangement. I don't have a good suggestion on how to change it.

30" deep counter is a great idea. Drawers too!! Do a storage inventory of what you need to store and in which zone you need to store it as per the Read Me thread. You may find you need one actual cabinet, but I'm guessing you could do the rest drawers. Trash pullouts are fab too!

Susie,

Don't be sad! Be creative! As you've drawn it, the island does look the way you described, that is, like something that's there because you want an island, but not because it enhances the function of your kitchen.

I get opening up the kitchen to the breakfast room, but no amount of wishing is going to make them into one room. They'll flow, and you'll be able to have your crowd of friends hanging out, but the rooms won't join on that tight L.

Having an island in the kitchen, and no table is fine. Having an island in the breakfast room, away from all kitchen activity, is--please forgive me for being so frank--weird. I get what your dream of it is, but it's not going to function that way.

A place to stand around and socialize. A place where people can sit (or stand) and talk to me while I work in the kitchen. You can have that!! You could have the counter height table that Francoise mentioned, for instance, but the island, as you've drawn it, is away from the kitchen. BTW, if you want it to match the kitchen you can give it the same finish, including tops. Instead of an island, however, my suggestion is to have a small table for the two of you, a cozy table, for breakfasts, which can fit all four in a pinch, and which has a tambor top, or is completely folding like a cafe table. Then have a number of island height tables that can be counters against the walls, where one can be turned 90 degrees into the middle for your entertaining area, and can be put all together (add some clamps to the legs) to be your buffet. I think it would be way cool to have the room be flexible space, whereas a permanent island is a big block in the middle of the room which is only useful when you're entertaining.

If you don't do the wine holders, you could do the upper cabinets down to the lowers for the look, or just do cubbies (which you could stick wine bottles into if you like for decor, especially if it's the two buck chuck you're using on the roast), or shallow drawers (which will give you a pretty look and a place to put a corkscrew, some pens, etc.). Or finish it out so that the uppers look like hutches and still leaves you some counter space for setting things down.

By "clipping" the corner, I meant to angle it, the way your shelves are angled catty corner, because as it is the entry isn't generous, and extending the counter would create a lot of hip bumping.

Re drawers, as has been said, the trash pullout is, essentially, a drawer. Unless...were you thinking of something mounted inside a cabinet door? Don't do it! The good kind is where the door is mounted on the pullout so you just pull the door and there are your trash bins. Some people even install a pressure latch or foot pedal so that it opens automatically.

OK - I don't have time to draw this out right now (once again, getting ready for that pesky "real job" is getting in the way,) but I had a thought. Give it to me straight:

What do you think if I put an "L" shaped peninsula in the breakfast room, with the short side under the window (the one on the same wall as the sink) and then had the long part coming out into the room? Maybe it can be a continuation (sort of) of the sink wall cabinets...I have to try to visualize.

I thought that by moving it over against the wall (which someone had suggested) I take it out of the "floating" position in the middle of the room and I still can have the opening between rooms. This way, I'd have a little more floor space on the other side of the room, and maybe I could fit a drop-leaf table or something kept under the other large window (facing the driveway.) Would it look odd to have a table and a peninsula? Do you think I have the room? I'm going to try to draw it out later.

On the bright side, at least I KNOW that I'm going for more drawers on the sink wall!!! :-)

OK - something else came to me in the shower:

What if I lose the island, bring the range wall counter/cabinets around the corner into the breakfast room - and get a nice big beautiful farmhouse table to put in the room? That way the rooms would be as open to each other as possible and they would definitely be tied-in. I mean, I really don't need the island for "socializing" do I? I really want this to "look" right...I so trust the judgement of all of you, and since most seem to think the island is not the best idea, I'm thinking I shouldn't hold on to it "just because." Again, I want a beautiful kitchen - if an island doesn't work TOWARDS that...

(However, be prepared to help me rethink my cabinet color choices/placement if the island goes...I have 2 colors picked out and I can't even imagine how to decide where to put them if I don't have an island as an "accent.")
Thoughts? Thanks - SQ