Downsview is a fine cabinet (from Canada) and expensive. I think of it being more akin to Wm Ohs in price, maybe yes, Wood Mode, too. (We really looked at Downsview in our previous house [in another state] and loved it except for its price tag. We should have suspected as much because it had been recommended to us by a friend of my mother's for whom "names" are really important [you know the type -- logo facing OUT so everyone can see it kind of thing]. Anyway, we ended up going a different route and in this house we had a local custom cabinetmaker build our kitchen and den and I have to say the quality is not just comparable to Downsview, I believe it's superior. Granted, so much depends on the excellence of your KD -- when ordering custom cabs through your KD and from a distance, s/he'd better be ON about every little detail. [We had a KD for a short while before realizing she was OFF about every little detail (and the big ones, too).].)

I don't know where you are so I cannot promise you this, but in my heart of hearts I believe you can find comparable quality for far, far less money. Far less money ....

Good luck!

rmkitchen:

Thank you so much for you info. I live in NY and am having some difficulty finding the right combination here. We need a kichen designer for a whole host of reasons (2 small kids, my mom just passed, just don't think I can handle it myself) I have found 2 that I think are great but I am not comfortable with the showroom markup. I am sure I will get a much better price with a millworker, but I am concerned I will not get my dreamkitchen if I don't get a kitchen designer.

There is one KD here who will do the layout and everything for 3,000. I can take that and have the millworker do cabinets. What are your thoughts on that?

BTW, I LOVE your kitchen, you are my inspiration. Please send more pics of how things are coming along.

thanks for your advice

Downsview is equivalent in quality to Wood Mode, Rutt, Quality Custom Cabinetry (QCC), Neff.

I have QCC and love them.
Ask to see recommendations for the KD and go see their kitchens and talk to the clients before you decide.

lilykate, I am so sorry about your mother! Of course you have your hands full right now. Please let us know what we can do to help.

I absolutely understand what you mean about not going it (kitchen remodel) alone. Me too. Mine was that I knew this would be a substantial investment so I wanted to make sure we did it right the first time. So, we first hired a KD to design the kitchen and I agree with you -- it was invaluable! For myriad reasons she wasn't the right fit for us (her mark-up was 100% on some things and ~85-90% on others -- ouch!) but we already had the plan. After shopping it around and deciding on our cabinetmaker, he (of course) came over to map everything out and measure. Her measurements bore no semblance to reality. If we'd ordered cabinets through her (her preferred line is Cuisines Laurier, also from Canada) using her made-up measurements we'd have been screwed. Maybe she would have absorbed the cost of replacement cabinets but maybe not. (look at what poor buehl has been going through) And think of the wait ... like you, I have two little children (nearly four and nearly two) and living without a kitchen is a bit of a drag. To have extended that because of the KD's foul-up would have really ticked me off. (and I'm a swearer, which is not so good for the children ...)

Clearly I'm biased because we had a poor KD: you know the adage "one bitten twice shy." I guess that's me. It would just hurt me to see someone else get "pinched," esp. given you have two small children and a lot else going on. You want it to be done correctly the first time.

I also know I'm bringing my own prejudice about cost, and I shouldn't have. Sorry about that! Again, I just felt so burned by our KD trying to sell us this $90K cabinetry (minus every bell & whistle) when we now get every bell & whistle (we wanted, that is) for much less (all told, ~$55K). I understand it's not true for everybody but for us that difference is HUGE!

Again, I'm seeing this through my lens, so take it with a grain of salt, but I really like the idea of having the KD draw up your kitchen and then shopping it around like crazy. Leave no stone unturned. It's great that you're here on GW because so many will be able to give you local resources. I think $3K is a bit high for the design but I know everything costs more in NYC. But you get to live in an exciting place!

And I also want to say I totally understand the appeal of working with a one-stop shop, so to speak. Of letting the KD design it and then deal with all the other elements of a remodel as well. It can feel overwhelming and the thought of paying someone to deal with it all is quite alluring .... I don't happen to drink (alcohol) and my husband jokes that it's a good thing because I'd probably be passed out drunk most of the time (throughout this remodel)! You know that feeling of everybody needing something at the precise same moment? With my children I can handle it, but with all these tradespeople I feel my shoulders get tight and my head start spinning. Inevitably they ask me these questions as I'm on my way out the door to go to nursery school or as I'm about to change a diaper or something where I want / need to be present for the children. Knowing myself I don't always handle stress super-well .... I envy these amazing multi-taskers!

And Thank You so much for your kind words about my kitchen! What a lovely thing to read. I appreciate it v. much, lilykate. The appliances were (mostly) installed Wednesday so I'll tell you what, I'll post this then go get my camera and take some pictures. (My younger son is napping so I'll strike while the iron is hot!)

Thank you again and I'll be back hopefully soon.

Wouldnt you know my youngest has just awoken and wants a cuddle.

View from the family room:

The pantry:

The u-shape area:

The refrigerator and freezer need their panels (Monday) and the microwave needs to be installed (also Monday). Lots of other odds & ends but then itÂll be done! Of course I'll have to figure out how to use that user-unfriendly oven!

Now he's crying so I'll check back later.

lilykate, I am so sorry about your mother! Of course you have your hands full right now. Please let us know what we can do to help.

I absolutely understand what you mean about not going it (kitchen remodel) alone. Me too. Mine was that I knew this would be a substantial investment so I wanted to make sure we did it right the first time. So, we first hired a KD to design the kitchen and I agree with you -- it was invaluable! For myriad reasons she wasn't the right fit for us (her mark-up was 100% on some things and ~85-90% on others -- ouch!) but we already had the plan. After shopping it around and deciding on our cabinetmaker, he (of course) came over to map everything out and measure. Her measurements bore no semblance to reality. If we'd ordered cabinets through her (her preferred line is Cuisines Laurier, also from Canada) using her made-up measurements we'd have been screwed. Maybe she would have absorbed the cost of replacement cabinets but maybe not. (look at what poor buehl has been going through) And think of the wait ... like you, I have two little children (nearly four and nearly two) and living without a kitchen is a bit of a drag. To have extended that because of the KD's foul-up would have really ticked me off. (and I'm a swearer, which is not so good for the children ...)

Clearly I'm biased because we had a poor KD: you know the adage "one bitten twice shy." I guess that's me. It would just hurt me to see someone else get "pinched," esp. given you have two small children and a lot else going on. You want it to be done correctly the first time.

I also know I'm bringing my own prejudice about cost, and I shouldn't have. Sorry about that! Again, I just felt so burned by our KD trying to sell us this $90K cabinetry (minus every bell & whistle) when we now get every bell & whistle (we wanted, that is) for much less (all told, ~$55K). I understand it's not true for everybody but for us that difference is HUGE!

Again, I'm seeing this through my lens, so take it with a grain of salt, but I really like the idea of having the KD draw up your kitchen and then shopping it around like crazy. Leave no stone unturned. It's great that you're here on GW because so many will be able to give you local resources. I think $3K is a bit high for the design but I know everything costs more in NYC. But you get to live in an exciting place!

And I also want to say I totally understand the appeal of working with a one-stop shop, so to speak. Of letting the KD design it and then deal with all the other elements of a remodel as well. It can feel overwhelming and the thought of paying someone to deal with it all is quite alluring .... I don't happen to drink (alcohol) and my husband jokes that it's a good thing because I'd probably be passed out drunk most of the time (throughout this remodel)! You know that feeling of everybody needing something at the precise same moment? With my children I can handle it, but with all these tradespeople I feel my shoulders get tight and my head start spinning. Inevitably they ask me these questions as I'm on my way out the door to go to nursery school or as I'm about to change a diaper or something where I want / need to be present for the children. Knowing myself I don't always handle stress super-well .... I envy these amazing multi-taskers!

And Thank You so much for your kind words about my kitchen! What a lovely thing to read. I appreciate it v. much, lilykate. The appliances were (mostly) installed Wednesday so I'll tell you what, I'll post this then go get my camera and take some pictures. (My younger son is napping so I'll strike while the iron is hot!)

Thank you again and I'll be back hopefully soon.

Hi rmkitchen:
wow, thanks for all of your great advice and support. I think I have to have more confidence in myself. I can do this! More and more I am shying away from the showroom route. Our budget for cabinetry is 40K and our space is not large 13.5 by 11.5. Your kitchen looks much bigger than that, so I feel more comfortable that I should be able to get what I need/want. If only I could use your mill worker!
Thank you for sending the pics. I hope you don't mind if I use your cabinetry as inspiration for mine kitchen. LOL.
Have a good night, and I hope you had better luck putting your little ones to bed than I did!

lilykate -- by any chance did you see this thread? It's from someone in NY with a kitchen similarly sized to yours and she's looking at Plain & Fancy. That might be a great cabinet choice for you (they're lovely -- beautifully made and so pretty!). There are many different cabinetry suggestions (as well as off-topic ruminations) in this thread, but the few which stick in my mind which might work really well for your style are Crown Point and Kennebec.

You may already be looking at these companies but since we have similar taste I just wanted to make sure!

Ok, interested in this thread on cabinets because I am about to decide, and also because I haven't seen your latest photos rmkitchen (been on vacation) and you kitchen looks FABULOUS!!! I am in such a dilemma over inset or not and yours in an inspiration that I can get the (or a) look I want without having to pay more for inset. It has all come together so well! Have I missed more photos? Let me know where I can find them!

So interestingly, I have quotes from Downsview, Dynasty/Omega and Rutt. I was surprised that the Downsview was virtually the same as Dynasty (mostly Dynasty, some custom Omega pieces but not many). I had been thinking Downsview was higher quality, but why the same price? I hate to say it but not excited about the KD in their shop so don't think I can bear to work with them, even though the product is good. Is that crazy for the long term benefit of a great cabinet?? Then I also got a quote from Rutt, WAYYYYYYY more than the other two, almost twice as much - what the?? And this is all for non-inset. (Also got an inset quote from Rutt, way more again.) So Rutt is sadly out. I love the KD at Dynasty and think she'd do a good job, and is not high pressure unlike Downsview, so what's a girl to do? About to pull the trigger and go with Dynasty - could this be a mistake?

I have not checked out smaller, custom makers in the area, but getting so tired of the process. I have some reference on a few from friends though and they all sounds more expensive. ??

Help!

katmandu! I'm so happy to see your sweet name again. I hope you had a wonderful vacation -- where'd you go?

Please trust your gut and do NOT go with Downsview -- not because I've anything against Downsview (I don't), but because of your feeling about the KD there. Honest-to-goodness this is such a trying thing, having your kitchen redone, that to embark on it with someone who already gives you second and third thoughts is only an invitation for disaster and high blood pressure! Totally not worth it and I would hate to see you in that situation. You don't deserve it.

I am esp. sour right now because our kitchen is mostly done. I spent most of Friday and today (Saturday) unpacking and trying to figure out where to put stuff and as of now, I am NOT pleased with our layout. We haven't enough room.

In my defense, I packed up ~2/3 of our kitchen in 12/05, readying it to go on the market late 1/06. I haven't seen most of our kitchen possessions since then and ... out of sight, out of mind. At that time, we had no idea to where we were moving (it was between Toronto, Boston or Boulder) so I had no idea we'd be redoing a kitchen. When I inventoried everything it was for checklists only -- not for size and quantity. (Meaning, in my spreadsheet I had "Kitchen Box 1, pans" so I'd know where to find them, not "four baking dishes, length x width" -- you know, the kind of thing which would have been useful in designing a kitchen!)

After we sold our house we still didn't know where we were going so we rented a house (also in San Francisco), and then in 12/06 did we purchase this house and 3/07 moved in. I was exhausted from all these moves and because by this time knew we'd definitely be redoing this kitchen I just didn't have it in me to unpack everything only to have to repack it all when we redid the kitchen.

H-U-G-E mistake. Huge. Fatal.

The kitchen is gorgeous -- no doubt about that! But what I really, really wanted was a functional kitchen; the pretty factor was absolutely secondary in goal. The layout is good but the storage is crap. As I've been struggling to put away baking dishes I wondered why our lower drawers seem so shallow. After calling the people who bought our SF house I learnt it's because that kitchen has 32" deep lower cabinets and 16" uppers. What a freaking difference! (We now have 24" lowers and 12" uppers.)

I'm not a TKO. It never occurred to me when I lived in that house to measure things because I didn't care and didn't notice. Absolutely not on my radar. I do know that SF kitchen was nearly twice the size of our current kitchen, which is a little odd as the house itself was half the size of this one (and that SF house was four times the cost of this house!).

I think I shall find room for everything in this kitchen but it won't be exactly where I want it. Because we have 9' ceilings, lots will be going up up up, which means my stepladder will be my constant companion as long as I live in this house.

Anyway, this long feeling-sorry-for-myself diatribe is my own way of saying, begging, both katmandu and lilykate to take tons and tons of time now, even if you're sick and tired of it all. Take the time to check out the custom cabinetmakers because it could end up being the smartest thing you did (regarding the remodel). For me, I wish I had spent the time and effort unpacking everything only to repack it all just so the KD and then cabinetmaker and I could have laid eyes on everything and together figured better ways of storing it all.

My sweet husband said "well, we can always redo the kitchen again in a few years." Clearly he has not been as involved in the process (or paying the bills!) as I. Bless his ignorant heart ....

I'm also bummed because our ridiculously expensive oven has those old-fashioned racks, you know, the kind which screech as you pull them out. The oven on which we'd initially decided was the Electrolux -- I loved its huge glass front and its full-extension smooth-gliding racks. BUT, I really, really wanted (double wall) ovens with a side-opening door -- I was tired of leaning into the oven. Either I've shrunk considerably (I haven't) or our toekicks are higher here (they are), but this oven is so tall! So I'm really relieved to have the side opening door, but I wish for that price it also had the smooth racks.

I also need to get another PhD in order to use it. It took me nearly fifteen minutes just to figure out how to get the screen to register in English (I don't speak German) and set the date and time and temperature format. This is going to be one steep learning curve!

Sorry for being so negative. I'm just feeling tired and sad and so v. angry with myself about this kitchen! To have spent this much money (any amount, actually) and have so many shortcomings is ridiculous. And it's my own fault!

Grr.

I was going to share a photo from tonight, with unpacked stuff and remnants of dinner but now, as if I needed kicking while already down, my camera has "lost" all the images on the card. Just this morning we took a bunch of darling pictures of my three year-old rock climbing and now, gone. I want to cry I am so frustrated and spent!

Ohh, rmkitchen, hang in there. I think it is so hard to move into a new kitchen and figure out where everything goes. We moved from So. Cal (so I understand the crazy california housing prices) to Seattle and got 3x the house for less $$ (5 years ago) and still, it was perplexing where to put everything in my larger kitchen. Give it a little time, you don't have to have everything perfectly stored right away. Maybe some rarely used items can go somewhere you hadn't thought of, pantry, laundry (if nearby), garage, somewhere else?? Hey, I also currently have 24" lower cabs and 12" uppers so that must be sort of standard nowdays. And maybe you don't really need that massive popcorn popper your brother gave you for Christmas a few years ago - oh wait, that's me. Anyway, take a breath and take a little time to live in it and I bet (hope) storage will become clearer. Try to be zen about it. : ) Even in this bigger house, I trek to the garage a lot for secondary fridge and costco items.

As for your oven, I am sure you will figure it out soon and once you do, be cooking like gangbusters. I sometimes think that downside to this website, if there is one, is the propensity to obsess over EVERY LITTLE DETAIL. You probably (hopefully) won't notice your oven racks in a month or so. And in the big scheme, it's not that important. Not that I don't totally understand, we pour our soul into this remodel thing and think about so many details that it's disappointing when even one is not what we expected, but look how beautiful your marble turned out even after that whole snafoo!! I am totally sympathetic, but just trying to be supportive.

Thanks so much for you advice on cabinets and KDs. I know in my heart of hearts to listen to my gut, but it's hard with lots of $$ at stake and not wanting to feel like a sucker. I generally agonize over big decisions so this is no different. I'll take your comments to heart and consider more options. Meanwhile, hug those darling kids and sleep well - your kitchen is almost done and it's beautiful. I am sure you will make it functional as well.

You might also want to check out Millbrook Custom Kitchens. They are an upstate NY custom cabinet maker. Their website isn't good, but they have an excellent reputation locally. They also own a business called Kitchen Buyers Outlet, which has a better website. http://www.kitchenbuyersoutlet.com/millbrook-cabinets/millbrook-cabinets.htm

I'm currently working with their kitchen designer and she's great.