We install wall cabinets at between 15-16" above the counter top in all of our kitchens. We've been doing it for 40 years. These are rules of thumb placement, however. If you have a tall coffeemaker, etc, you may need some wall cabinets at 18".

For your height standard 36" base cabinets are too high. If you are thinking about new cabinets, have the base cabinets lowered to 35".

Here is a link that might be useful: StarCraft Custom Builders

Lisa,

I very deliberately put mine at about 16" or 16.5" above the counter, and I LOVE them at that height. (In fact, my carpenter stood there and held the darned upper cab against the wall at various heights while I mimed reaching in and up. The man is a saint, of course.)

I'm 5'7", so it's not a height issue as much as an ergonomic reach issue. I find it very convenient, more so than the 18" or higher I had before. If you have the counter space elsewhere for your tall appliances, I'd do them lower in a split second. Folks here on the forum will (rightly) remind you to consider resale value if this isn't your forever house. But I think that's easily solved if you have some open space for KitchenAid, etc, elsewhere on your lowers.

Nobody has ever noticed that my cabinets are lower, and in fact more than one person has remarked how comfortable it is to work in my kitchen. :)

Good luck!

*sigh* This has come up several times...18" is standard...and there's a reason for it. Here's basically how I answered the same question earlier this week:

18" is standard and you should try to not go much less than that..for both your sake and for resale (if you plan to sell in the next 2 or 3 years). To determine what is the minimum spacing you need:

(1) Measure the tallest appliance you will be using on your counter. Note I said using, not storing.

(2) Then, add 1/4".

This is the minimum spacing you should have b/w your countertop and the bottom of the light rail on your upper cabinets. (Note that most light rail is at least 1" tall, so that means if your upper cabinets are installed 18" above the finished countertop then you will really only have 17" b/w the countertop & the bottom of the light rail...anything taller than 17" will not fit under your light rail/upper cabinets.)

Why "using" and not "storing"? When you are working on your counters, you want to have the entire depth available to you, not just for the deliberate placing of an appliance but also to be able to move it around to get it out of your way, to better place it, etc. If you think about it, you only have about 12" or 13" of clear space on your counter (in front of the uppers)--if you have standard 12" uppers. If you have deeper, say 15", uppers then you further reduce that clear space to 9" or 10".

Can't reach past the 1st shelf in your uppers? Invest in a small step stool. Many here have them. They can be stored in a variety of ways. People here have been very creative about finding places for one. Toekick drawer, build a narrow cabinet to put it in (e.g., if you have 4" or 5" filler anywhere, like b/w the refrigerator & wall, put in a narrow cabinet instead and store the stool there), in a pantry, etc.

If you plan to sell in less than 5 years, then you probably should consider resale as well. Anything much less than 18" would cause me to reconsider...it wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker if there was somewhere I could use, for example, my mixer, but it would definitely be a big negative.

As to base cabinet height, the standard finished counter height is 36". That means: 34.5" cabinets + counter = 36".

Standards were developed to fit the average person. For me, 36" is an inch or so too low, for others it's an inch or so too high...but the average makes a kitchen usable for more than one person. If you are the only one that will ever use your kitchen and you plan to stay for more than 5 years in the house, you could lower them if you wish. However, I would not make all your cabinets/counters lower...maybe a short run...that way your kitchen will be more versatile. If you have a DH who is taller or children who will probably be taller than you, then making all the counters comfortable for you may make those counters uncomfortable for your family (or helper visitors) to work at. There is at least one GWer that actually has 3 heights...most of her counters are 36" high but she has, IIRC, a 34- or 35-inch section of counter for her and a 37-inch section for her DH...a great way to make it comfortable for everyone but not make her kitchen too specific to her or her DH.

To determine your ideal finished counter height, hang your arms straight down at your sides. Then, bend your elbow 90o. Now have someone measure the distance b/w the floor and your elbow. Subtract 6". This is your ideal counter height.

As w/the distance b/w counter & light rail, a kitchen w/lower than "normal" counters would be a big negative for me...actually, if I knew I couldn't afford to redo the kitchen immediately, it would be a deal breaker for me.

Unfortunately, many architects, cabinetmakers, & cabinet-salespeople do not cook and really don't understand the need for many things...workspace (vertical & horizontal) is one of them. Granted, not all these people fall into this category, but enough do that questions like this (and functional layout) come up repeatedly on this Forum. (If an architect, cabinetmaker, or cabinet salesperson hangs out here long enough...they eventually do learn what is truly functional! I know I didn't understand a lot of these things when I first started lurking & posting questions, but I've learned so much in the almost 2 years I've been here!)

Here is a link that might be useful: Help!! Spacing between upper-lower cabints, etc.

Sorry, buehl, I scoured the old threads for this answer when I first started coming to this forum but this has been a very busy week (working through the weekend, too, dang I need a vacation) so I missed the most recent thread. Thanks for reiterating the information for me here. I'll measure my countertop appliances and see what my needs are.

Thanks, oldtimecarpenter and circuspeanut, for your responses. We aren't replacing any cabinetry, only updating their look, so we can't reduce the height of the lower cabinets.

As for the cabinet heights, I've lived with it for 15 years and I probably will for the next 10-15 years we'll be in this house. That said, I may lower all uppers an inch or so. I think I have the clearance, it's just enough to help but not so much that anyone would really notice at resale time - and for all we know, someone will want to come in and rip everything out anyway.

From the article on kitchen efficiency, which points out that the 18" standard is not ergonomic for cooks, but rather a builders' invention:

The placement of upper cabinets can hamper efficiency. Most commonly they are placed 18" above the counter top. This has become the standard, not because it is the best height, but because it's where the typical 30" wall cabinet happens to fall when installed on an 8 foot wall under the usual 12" soffit and above a 36" high counter. This is, however, too high for efficient use by the most people under 6' tall.

The best reach height for most people is just 57" -- about shoulder height. If the bottom of the cabinet is at 54" then almost everything in the cabinet is above the best reach height. Lowering the cabinet slightly makes the stuff in the cabinet more readily accessible.

The best height for a wall cabinet is 14-15" above the counter top.

A lot of countertop appliances, however, especially coffee-makers, assume an 18" height above the counter, and use every bit of it. If you have these tall appliances, then at least some of your cabinets will need to be placed higher than the optimum height.

Lowering the upper cabinets just this 3-4 inches makes all of the bottom two shelves of the cabinet easily reachable, as well as at least the front half of the third shelf. Upper cabinet storage is now much more efficient with just this modest change."

(Not to quibble with you, Buehl! Just wanted to offer a different perspective.)

These are my facts: I had 15-16" in my last house and intentionally have 18" in this one. I am 5'- 3 1/2", give or take and can reach just fine to retrieve things from the 2nd shelf and would need a step stool for the 3rd shelf in either case.

This is how I based my opinion and decision to have them 18" up: If I can't reach something in the cabinet, I can get a step stool, but if things on the counter won't fit under the uppers (blender, mixer, coffee maker), and/or I can't get things out of my way, so I can utilize the counter work space to the fullest, the use of my kitchen is very negatively affected.

I think it'd be pretty odd to have some lower and some higher, depending on needs for taller counter appliances in certain areas. As a matter of fact, some of mine have more than 18" between the counter and uppers, because all of my uppers are at 54" from the floor, even if the counter is lower, like it is for my baking center and on my stovetop run.

Just my 2 cents on what I've found to work best for me.

Mine are 17 1/2 inches up, maybe 17 and I find it very comfortable; I'm about 5'8", or used to be before I started shrinking!

I wouldn't want to go to 15" though. I think that would present a real problem with things like coffee makers or mixers on the counter and it would also make me the counter feel claustrophobic.

I'm about 5'8", or used to be before I started shrinking!

You too?! Doesn't it just tick you off? My feet got bigger by a half size and I shrank almost a 1/2" after my pregnancies.

Thanks for the additional comments and advice. I measured the appliances that would sit on my counter and nothing is taller than 14", including the KitchenAid mixmaster that I inherited from my mom. It's close to 20 years old but still works great. I have her even older mixmaster - got it when she got her newer one - and it still works, too, although it lacks the bells and whistles of the newer one. I just can't bear to part with it, though. It's the one I learned to make cookies, brownies and cakes with.

If I lowered my cabinets, I'd only lower them to 16 1/2" or 17". Still haven't decided. Maybe I'll just get some nice cushy area rugs to give me the extra boost. Or platform slippers! LOL As for a stool to reach the higher shelves, already got it - it hangs handily on a hook in my walk-in pantry. But it's still a nuisance to drag it out when needed. Why, oh why didn't my parents grow a taller child?

Our (about to be renovated kitchen) has 15" gap on one side, and 18" on the other. Both my wife and I (6'4") do find it easier to access the wall cabinets on the lower side, but the counter space on the 15" side seems cramped for prep work. We will go with 18" or 17" for our reno.

My mixer and occasionally used coffeemaker would never fit under those 15" - 16" high cabinets and I would be really upset if they had been installed that way w/o my consent...and I would NOT have given my consent! If you install them 15" - 16" above the counter, then add 1" of light rail, you'll really have only 14" - 15"!!! Additionally, I would really hate to be confined to one small section of counter to work...which is what would happen if only some cabinets were mounted that high and the rest lower.

Sorry CircusPeanut, but I disagree w/StarCraft in this (and actually a couple of other "facts" they state on their site...but I'm not going to get into a discussion about them...only to ask how many of those people actually work in a kitchen other than to warm something up in the MW?)

I stopped at Neil Kelly remodeling showroom today on a whim today (they do great work but they are out of our price range).

The first kitchen I saw was lovely - warm, comfy, cheery. I measured and was pleasantly surprised to find that the uppers were installed at 16.5" above the counter. I stood there and thought, "I like this!" Even though they were tall cabinets like ours (42" with 9' ceilings) I didn't feel as though they dwarfed me or were imposing, like I do with our current upper cabs.

buell, I think maybe we're talking apples and oranges. I'm including the light rail when I'm talking height to the bottom of the cabinet. There's an extra 2 3/4" strip between the bottom of my cab and the first shelf to hide the undercab lights so I'm actually reaching up almost 21" to put plates away.

Does the KitchenAid mixer tip or lift up, making it taller than it's just-sitting-there 14" height? You won't want to worry about it hitting the light rail when it does go up...or somehow end up smashing your fingers in between. Using my mixer was one of the biggest determiners about how high I placed the uppers, so I measured it in the up position, which is about 17 3/4". I may pull it a bit forward to use it, but it'd have to be pretty close to the edge if it couldn't clear the upper when up, meaning all ingredients and measuring tools would have to be kept off to the side, instead of in front where I like to have them handy.

I placed mine at 18.5" for my mixer and it hasn't come out of the box since we moved in! New coffeemaker won't fit with the lid lifted (nervous about steam so close anyway). I'm 5' 2.5" (and I used to be almost 5'4"!), my builder told me I needed to wear clogs!

I understand, Buehl, and your reasons are sound - but I'm sure nobody is planning on sneaking in and installing your counters without your consent! :-)

Lisa, I think it's ultimately a matter of what makes you feel "right" about occupying your kitchen. I should also add that my counters are deeper than normal at c. 30", so the space is much more usable than if it were the norm (24"? 25"?). I prefer more open upper wall space (makes a small kitchen so much bigger!) so I only have 3 upper cabinets, spaced well out from one another on different walls.

Love the platform slipper idea! Like you, I simply can't handle the thought of one more thing to schlep around and stumble over, so the stool option never quite gels in my house.
In the finished kitchens blog, I think you can search by ceiling height to get some more ideas.

I have 8 ft ceilings. I wanted my 36" cabinets with crown to go to the ceiling, without having to have a very wide molding. My cabinets are installed at 20" above the counter. It's a small kitchen and I think it opens it up having the higher cabinets. I'm 5'9", so it won't be a problem. I had 21" before, and I just place all the things I use on a daily basis on the bottom shelf and bottom cabinets. I can reach the second shelf Ok and the top shelf is used for things I use a few times year for special occasions.

I was responding to the comment that...
We install wall cabinets at between 15-16" above the counter top in all of our kitchens. We've been doing it for 40 yearsThe way it's worded implies it's SOP (standard operating procedure) for the poster who installs cabinets....which means it's their standard and a client might not be consulted first.

I have the KA stand mixer where you raise the bowl, not the head. It's approx 17" high...I'm not home to measure, but I seem to recall that's its height. The contractor actually installed our cabinet about 1/4" too low and now I have to be careful when I move the mixer around on the counter...yes, it clears the light rail...but just barely. I don't even have that extra 1/4" I mentioned in my first post...so I'm sensitive to cabinet height questions/comments!

Oh, and Lisa, my feet also grew a half size when I was pregnant. I had a hard enough time finding size 10W shoes before...try finding size 10.5W!!!! Almost impossible! And yes, I do appear to be shrinking as well. When I was last measured I was actually 5'9-3/4"....not 5'10"...but I've been 5'10" for most of my life so I'm sticking to it!!!

I was measuring the appliances in their down position. Obviously, the mixmaster will be taller than 14" in use. However, I wouldn't use it under the upper cabinets (that would be inconvenient), it would be pulled forward. I did note your comments, rhome410 and buell, that I'd have to be careful about moving it back and hitting the cabinet but I doubt I'd do that in the up position. My mom drove home that I never, and I mean never, leave the mixmaster in the up position when moving it. It could come crashing down.

We also pull the coffee makers forward when we use them. I don't think steam hitting the bottom of the cabinet can be a good thing.

Might have hubby talked into letting me go from island cooktop/wall oven to range against the wall, which would give me a whole island for prep so working with appliances near cabinets might be a moot point for me.

Did you all know that your ears and your nose grow bigger as you age, too? Honestly, I can handle certain things about getting older but I never knew about the whole height shrinking and nose growing bigger thing. At least I can comb my (graying) hair over my ears.

ajsmama, yikes! I guess I shouldn't complain about my almost 1/2" then.

Warning - totally random non-kitchen related reply.

Buehl, I'd love to know where you find 10.5 shoes! I'm sure they can be special ordered, but I'd like to know who, in their infinite wisdom decided every other woman's size shoe gets stocked in half sizes but it goes 10, then 11. I guess I should be grateful size 11 can be found in stores nowadays, but now that 11 has become fairly common (and sometimes even 12, my sister's size) you would think they'd see a need for 10 1/2 size!

And Lisa, I had heard that your nose grows all your life. Oh goody. I've also read, don't know if it's true, that your eyes remain the same size all your life, which is one reason we find babies so cute - they're eyes are so large proportionate to their head.

So we're all doomed to be big nosed, big eared shrunken people with beady eyes, I guess.

Sandsonik...I order most of my shoes from "Maryland Square." Ros Hommerson shoes are a particularly good fit for my feet. But...they are expensive! Luckily, I'm not really into shoes so I just order basic shoes and wear them until they wear out.

My 13 yo DD is a size 11W...so it's a little easier for her, but not much b/c she has wide feet. (My 14 yo DS is a men's size 13 narrow and is still growing!) Both my DD and I usually buy men's sneakers since they come wider than women's.

Great! Now not only will I have big feet (for my age), but a big nose & big ears!

I was stretching it as a teenager/20's something. I was probably closer to 5' 3.5", not 5'4". But still, I've shrunk an inch in the past 20 years or so. And oh no! on the big ears. My hair has always been thin and fine (I used to have nightmares about losing it like my grandma), so I can't comb over (though all the men in my family did/do LOL)! And DH's nose can't get any bigger. At least my feet are back to normal (went from 6.5 to 7 after the kids, now that DD is 5 I'm back to 6.5)

This is an interesting thread! Although I just went with the "standard" 18" you've gotten the best of my curiosity! I did a search and it seems that over the last 40 years or so, the average height has increased about an inch.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mean Weight and Height Among Adults Aged 20--74 Years, by Sex and Survey Period --- United States, 1960--2002

Rather than adhering to the customary standard of 18 in. or just randomly picking something different, I think a better way would be to just consider exactly what you want to be able to do - whether reaching higher shelves is more important than storage underneath the upper cabinets, etc. For example, I asked the cabinet maker to install our upper cabinets at 16 inches for several reasons:

1) I am so tired of stretching to reach upper cabinets - and I'm not that short (5' 5")!! My current cabinets (only have 2 of them though - it's a tiny kitchen) are 23 inches (yes, you read that right!) and extend to the ceiling which is 9 ft. Needless to say, it's almost impossible to reach anything other than the first shelf - I can stretch to reach the very edge of the second but usually feel as if I've pulled a muscle afterward - haha.
2) I also wanted to coordinate the height of the cabinets with the windows and do not want the cabinets to reach the ceiling (which is coffered), so was a bit limited - 18 in. would have been slightly too much.
3) I'm not worried about storage space under the upper cabinets because there are so many windows (as well as an island) that there will be plenty of space to use small appliances, etc without running into the cabinets. We don't use anything currently that would be stored on the countertop anyway.
4) As for resale, I would never think of actually measuring the height of cabinets (unless they were REALLY high) and even if I did, it wouldn't prevent me from buying a house (obviously, since my current kitchen is horrible!). I realize that there are definitely people who care about those things much more than I do though, so will just have to take that chance with resale :)

Other ideas could simply be integrating a variety of heights (seemed to be trendy for a while to do that), including cabinets that extend down to the counter or have those appliance garages at the bottom.

sandsonik, LOL! Now that ain't a pretty sight.

ajsmama, me too on that fine, thin hair. My hubby's hair is so thick (or was, I think he's thinning) that it was thinned each time he had it cut. I always said that if we could combine our two heads and split the difference, we'd each have a great head of hair. ;-)

buell, it's not any easier to find shoes for those with small feet. My SIL and at least 2 nieces wear size 4 to 5 - now that's tiny!

Another bit of trivia: Did you know the average woman owns 40 pairs of shoes? That means someone out there has an awful lot of shoes to make up for what I don't own (I'm not a shoe person either).

traci29, wow, 23 inches high?! I'd need stilts!

I still haven't made up my mind but I really appreciate all the feedback everyone is giving. Thanks!

Oh great! It seems that every time I log onto GW, I end up running into the kitchen to measure something. This time, I had to go measure myself, and yes, I have shrunk a little over 1/4 inch! I have been 5'11" for many years, but now, I'm just under 5'10.75"! Sadly, I'm sure the difference is from spine compression, not leg shrinkage, and I will have to hunt for pants with a 35" inseam until the day I die.

By the way, my husband swears by Zappos.com for ordering shoes--name brands, lots of sizes, free shipping both ways, so if you don't like them or if they don't fit, you can return them for free.

O.k... i had to comment on the "subtopic" of shoe size here...

SANDSONIK, et. al., I'm a 10.5 too... and i find a good selection of 10.5 shoes at Nordstrom RACK. Actually, they have a great selection at the Nordstrom stores as well, but i like the prices at the rack better :)

beth

LOL, holligator! I do the same thing but I never realized this topic would get people measuring themselves, not their kitchen.

There is a good post about designing your kitchen to feel good to you over at the Kitchen Sync blog (a fellow GWer pointed out this great blog). I think it plays into this discussion. There's logic - install them 18" above counter - and there's how that height makes me feel - short. Okay, I am short but do I need to be made to feel even shorter?

Here is a link that might be useful: Feeling good about home design