As a long-time lurker and relatively new poster, I am throwing in my two cents worth.

It IS hard to keep up with how fast the posts are moving. If I don't log in daily, I sometimes will have to skim over topics, and I'm probably missing some really lovely projects that I would want to see.

I DO enjoy the off-topic things, but there should be a designated place for it. That way, if I only have a few minutes and just want to brighten my day with something beautiful to look at, I can do that immediately.

It really ISN'T that clear to newbies (or long-time lurkers, for that matter!) to use the CONVERSATION side for off-topic things. However, if we all use gentle reminders when something off-topic comes up on the DISCUSSION side, we will all get it eventually. I do mean GENTLE, maybe a code phrase like, "You silly old girl, that should be over on the other side!"

I wanted to remind everyone that this is a wonderful and uplifting place to come, and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

This will be my last message so I'm going to be frank (you be whomever you want to be). I know it isn't clear to people that there is a conversation side but if people perused the site they'd find it. If they did some homework before asking questions they might not have to ask. That's being lazy folks. And Wuvie, as to your statement, "If the forum is not 'policed' and indeed is left to the members to conduct themselves in a productive manner"--THAT is exactly what we are asking members to do--conduct themselves in a productive manner. But some take exception to that request. Too many egos here. So long.

Oh jeez, I leave for a weekend and the house cleaning begins . . .

This happens yearly or so - I used to come here when there was at MOST 5 posts a week. Pretty boring, that.

Everyone take a deep breath, break something and come back when you're comfortable.

yeah, I have a huge ego and that's why I dare give my opinion. I was the 1st one to give a mea culpa last night and if you have a look at the pages on that side I do try to put my off topic stuff over there I have every intention of trying to continue doing so. If that's why you or anyone else chooses to leave the forum, I can't imagine how I could do anything to change your minds.

I take it this pretty much screws the ball exchange???

I KNEW I should have procrastinated!

I'm pretty new, but just want to ask if anyone has checked with the powers that be (Spike still?) to see if the "On Topic" and "Conversation" buttons could be modified if the majority wanted it done. I saw those, but reasoned anything to do with Stained Glass or Mosaics, from questions to Projects & all in between would be considered "On Topic" and any unrelated subjects were "Conversation" and acted accordingly. If that is not the accepted definition here, I apologize for not understanding the headings, but feel the wording should be changed accordingly IMHO. I've not been here long enough to weigh in on either side other than to say I don't think that it is clear what is intended. I don't know how a consensus could be reached, but if one button said "Project reports & photos" and the other said "All other discussions", it would be clear. Not that I'm voting for that option, just an example.

I do feel asking questions is not a crime, and that those who are tired of answering can opt not to do so, but that's just me. People have different learning styles, and some can make more sense of a subject by asking questions & getting specific answers. I'd love to be able to watch someone personally, but haven't found a way to do that yet.

To ease my stomach clenches from this, I've actually just finished setting up a forum elsewhere to see if there is any interest, (even though I don't know enough to fill a thimble yet) in case I get where I feel uncomfortable enough here that I don't come back. I did it so I can leave the posts until they get covered by dust though, and have folders labeled projects, materials, etc. so I've learned something from this discussion. I may be the only one that ever posts there, LOL, but at least I won't argue with myself very often;)

I am not going anywhere right now though, hoping that the forum can find it's equilibrium again, and I also posted a link at my new place to this one, so that I and anyone else looking can find this place.

I needed a good laugh to ease my stomach cramps! LOL

Wench, absolutely not. I put myself in for it and it's going ahead as planned. Even if it's less participating, so be it

Would that be a bowling ball exchange? As in
a mosaic ball?

I just can't hold back visions of a mailman
carrying around bowling balls. LOL.

KM

panther, you have made no mistakes in your assumptions on what was meant to be where. And I agree if Ivilliage were the least bit accommadating that it would be preferable to have them change the titles and make it more obvious. But they are highly unresponsive and this is why I think it's fighting the tidal flow to try and change what we have going on now.

let's face it folks, the forum is growing, if it grows beyond what people can tolerate, then choices have to be made. But you really can only control your own decisions.

Nice, what you said about the forum growing is well put.

Anyway, don't we have a nice photobucket site that bama set up for finished works? I hope this doesn't sound too creepy, but I have referred back to the member subfolders to look at general style or a particular work. That's one way to be able to look back at earlier work.

Also, doesn't matter how much you police it, there are only 67 pages, so eventually everything is going to fall off ...

My 2¢ on the subject is actually on the other thread on the other side, but wanted to mention that there's a full moon coming in 2-days, and I am one who completely believes such things...
It's also January in the Northern Hemisphere, and I've seen forums (here & elsewhere) have these types of falling outs at nearly the same time on nearly an annual basis.
So...while I don't always agree with some who insist on being the 'rule-keepers' of society, I try to at least be 'politically correct' when I do put in my 2¢ worth if I have something to say. I didn't think there was anything wrong with the way the board was working. Cuz, well, IMO, it WAS working just fine.

For the record, I plan on staying in the ball exchange.

Wow....I just checked into the photobucket site and it looks like quite a few pictures and albums have been removed...

What is this gonna do for all those people who were going to Slows for the Rianna thing???

Its a sad day...

I'm hoping that everyone wakes up tomorrow & takes a deep breath, and realizes they get a lot from being here, and decide to stay.

well thats a dang shame and a huge loss for everyone here.

But being a realist, 40 of us could have said great idea , lets do it! and somewhere down the line a threshold of too many others disregarding the guides would cause an exodus anyway?

Well you all are stuck with me for good or evil...unless
one of you decides to really tick me off ;)
(Too soon?)

LOL never too soon to laugh, (unless you're still at the funeral)!

All I can say, (not knowing what the h*** is going on) in Cher's famous words "SNAP OUT OF IT!" LOL - LIFE IS WAY TOO SHORT to let any of this get to you!

LOL...Indeed Cher said it all!

:-) Karen Marie

pantherfl...I have some questions for you, would you e-mail me?

Hazie

You have mail

Hello Panther,

Better check your mail again.

;-) KM

I don't see anything, I'll try sending to you.

On no, what a mess.

Oh NO, What have us newbies done! Sorry if I may have done something wrong. I just got caught up in how everyone on this forum made me feel welcomed and appreciated each other.
LaLa

This is so SAD SAD SAD !!!

La la...you have done nothing that we all arent guilty of...dont take it to heart...this will pass!!!

I'm in the same boat as Lala. At the risk of looking incredibly stupid, I have never even looked at the other side until all of this. Since I have found this site and joined in, I have felt SO welcome and encouraged! You have all been full of advice and inspiration. I love being able to ask questions and view all the pieces that give me hope that I too can create works of art like that someday..... I personally have enjoyed the debates on ring saw vs wet saw, who has tile on sale, etc. but that's just me.
I will try to post on the right side in the future. It just makes me sad too that the site that I've felt nothing but encouragement and support from is going through this. I guess I'll just put on my big girl panties and deal with it. Smiles.

Well, I don't plan on going anywhere. you are all stuck with me

Maria

I just have to say this......
We are losing so many older members over a few people not wanting to be flexible and make some changes, for the good of the whole forum! The Talent we are losing...are the people that made most of you join in the first place!!!
Think about it!! We would all just like to make the posts
last as long as they can, so everyone can make use of them.
Without that talent, and experience...where the hell would we all be? It wouldn't be the forum it is now, and the one that brought you all here. It was dead before we all came.......and within a few months it became the great place it is. The loss of all that talent is just killing me!....there is no reason we can't make the changes we need to make, to keep this forum the great place it is!
The rest of the Garden Web forums keep it in check, we need to, too. If we loose the major players here....we have lost the forum that made it what it is....
Growth is inevitable, and a good thing, and we are now needing to learn to deal with it. That takes some change...
but it has been met with such resistance, that it's tearing us apart! If we aren't careful.....we are going to lose what made us what we are....the changes aren't too much to ask.....it's for the good of all of us! We are actually
just needing to implement what the forum was set up for. We didn't need it before......now we do..

That's just my opinion.....for what it's worth.

Hazie

there's no resistance to following what garden web is about. On topic is over here and off topic is there. Show me where anyone disagrees with that idea? what I'm not in agreement is referring to "those working with stained glass and mosaics to discuss techniques and materials." as off topic I just cannot see how you ask people to ignore that heading and do what we ask instead? If you all want to try and tell everyone about your new rules all the time have at it... cripes already there are members feeling bad because they didn't know they shouldn't have posted a question here... great. Now we're a forum labeling people as lazy? You're right I don't want to lose what we're about either. It wasn't about name calling or making anyone feel stupid.

If you can get GW to relabel the forums, have at it otherwise I'm going to post the way they say to. I've made a mistake here and there but who hasn't. And I apologized, which I guess is completely meaningless to everyone.

By this time next year that side will hit it's page limit too with all the questions by "lazy" people and the tutorials and information about the making of this art... (incidently what this forum was so great for) and then what? or losing that info isn't important to those of you who just want to pop in the see projects?

Like I said, I have no problem with the rules of GW. But it'll be a cold day when I tell someone that I can't answer their questions on grouting over here when that isn't spelled out by the admin of the site.

come to think of it, if it hadn't been freely given advice and encouragement from those experienced and talented people... I probably wouldn't be here either. I somehow that that was what we were about.

You guys.......I have to add.......
There are several very talented people that have been the maintay of this forum......they brought it to life...and
you will miss them....they may not have spoken...but they are pretty much gone now.....There is no reason not to implement the changes, all the other Garden Web Forums
Do! Are you all ready to lose them???
it seems no one really spoke up!!!.....What the hell?
You know these people have inspired and helped you and brought you here.......If we lose them.......this forum
will start from the beginning. You are going to miss so many
pics...and the experience of these artists. You all need to speak up!....if you can't deal with the change....so be it..
but you are losing so much!

Hazie

nicetyme....I think you have become the "know all" and Chief. I don't know where this happened....but you are now the newbie savior, at the cost of all else! The people who built this forum and gave you the incentive and helped you
become the queen you think you are.. they have been screwed by you!......is there no end to your crap?! really!?
Are you really trying to take over this forum?....
Look at your exchange guidelines...what a witch! really!
So now you have managed to get rid of almost every founding person!.......Wake up nice.....you are the only one pissing people off!.....maybe you should leave??? the talent is dropping off because of you!...I tried to be nice....
but there is no end to your crap!!! Done with you!!! like everyone else.........wake up everyone.....she caused the drama!!!...she just can't shut up!!.......she'd love to be the only person left from years ago....to run it all! look at her exchange post, have you ever seen a post like that!ahhaha Rude as hell!.......
You have made mess out
of this forum... just kept the crap brewing! No one has had a chance to really speak....you really tried to just speak
for everyone!.......as a newbie.....I'd be afraid too!
Everyone has held their tongue.....your last crap just did it for me!.......Are you counting the people you have driven off??? keep count......
I won't be here to see your rebuttal...so just save it!
I know you can't....you have masses to impress!hahaha
got for it!......make it for them as I know you will!
It's your forum now!....too bad the best talent has left you!.............sorry everyone.....I just can't watch this anymore......... She won't shut the hell up! and even try!
enough is enough!......

I feel like a child stuck in a bad divorce. I can't believe that all of this has happened and has sunk to such a low. When I first came here it was at a time in my life that I needed the camaraderie as well as the knowledge. Nirvana.
How amazing it was to meet people who actually thought like ME! There aren't many as well you might know. Who else in your "real" life can you share these artful dreams with? ( without them looking at you like a looney)
Hazie, wherever you are, I am so sorry to see you leave. I will miss all the art you and ALL the others shared. I will miss them as well.
I don't agree with what you just posted. It was downright rude. (and wasn't the "ball exchange rules " in response to RMT's problems over the last exchange?)
I am not a newbie to GW but am to this forum. I don't think ANYONE should ever be labeled "queen". That just gives too much power. And who needs power here? We are artists. NO ONE is better than the next. We are just in different stages of evolution. And I don't think that we need "permission" to speak, as in Nice's remarks. Could be because we are all in shock. I know I am. My hands are shaking as I type this. I am not even sure that I can hit the "submit" button. But by golly this is the USA and free speech is still a right, so I think that I will.
I will continue to frequent this forum. Sorry, you're all stuck with me.
I look forward to seeing all your WIP's and hearing your questions and I will continue to learn from who is here.
Lori

I've posted my apology on the conversation side.

I'd hate to see this forum disintegrate; it really is a great forum.
Yes, there are egos. Oh well. Good artists sometimes are that way. Some people call it passion.
I'm not going to comment on the last few remarks made on this thread, because I don't really think we need to go there, and it should have been taken 'outside.'

What I would like to start is a good, objective discussion about what the majority would like to see on which 'side' of the forum. As a general rule, I've seen that most "conversation" sides are simply about chit-chat discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the forum. The "discussions" side is just that: Discussions and pix of related material for SG&M.

What I think we REALLY need here, and I will email GW about it, is a GALLERY. Cripes, even the Winter Sowing forum has one, and of all places, an "artsy" forum DEFINITELY needs one. Until we get one, it does seem logical that related discussions, whether it be WIP, glue, or glass, would belong on this side. That's my opinion.
If someone is concerned about stuff falling off, do take time to clip the post for later reference. I also offer up these couple of tidbits:
-there's a place online called The Way Back Machine (dot com). Many pages of old stuff can be found there. Very useful tool.
-second, I agree that there are some great pieces made by many. Unfortunately, due to the limited space we have here, we can't save everything. Another suggestion I'd have is to 'bump' something that you think is in danger of falling off. Check the last two or three pages of posts on a daily basis, and simply bump those that you feel should stay.
-And to continue that last one...another beauty of this art is that there is MORE CREATED EVERY DAY, and to say that our walls are full with the old stuff and that new work isn't worth keeping, well, that's just foolish.
-Another thing we have already done internally, is to take those old favorites, and publish them over at Photobucket. This was a VERY smart move, and will keep those items from falling into a black hole. We have, essentially, created our own "Gallery" side, and this WORKS for us!

I'll get off the box now, and let others put in their 2¢, but I think we should definitely bring the thread back on topic.

There is no need, nor room for foul mouthed or
rude discussion.

In agreement with MMQ and others,

While I have not been very active on this particular forum,
I came here with the intention of doing so. Other boards
were not very active, so I felt comfy to come on in and
begin yacking.

Some might say I have no room to speak because I have
not been here, I would beg to differ. When I see a
great board going haywire, I don't hesitate to offer
my unsolicited two cents, especially if I like the
wallpaper and plan on staying for a while.

If I may make a suggestion, it would seem much more
productive to have a post about the 'rules', be they
written or perceived, on both sides which could be
kept at the top by bumping. Once the thread became
overbumped, a new one could take it's place, ending
the other. Copy and paste is a marvelous thing.

It doesn't take much to be articulate. Surely this
site does not wish to project sour attitudes and
negativity toward those who do not know the rules. If
there are people who won't 'obey' the rules, a gentle
reminder may work. And then, of course, you will always
have those who want to decide what is a conversation
and what is a discussion. The other option is to squabble
and gripe, call people names, then take your work and
go elsewhere. Sad some feel this need to feel this way.
Life is too short.

The board, as a whole, should decide what exactly
constitutes a space on the discussion side. To me,
many of the threads on the conversation side should
be on the other and vice versa. But that's just my
opinion. Dogs barking, babies crying and toilet paper
would obviously not qualify for the discussion side, LOL.

When I first saw this thread, I clicked on it thinking
it was a guide of some sort for females. I don't doubt
there are indeed fabulous male mosaic and stained
glass artists out there. Perhaps a new thread with a
new title would be most productive.

And now, I'm getting dressed and heading for the hobby
store. I'll buy plenty, so when I get back, if you all
have been nice, I'll share.

If a gallery is the issue, I can set one up free of
charge on my own site. I'm willing to help if I can.
All I ask is that we act like mature adults in this
matter.

;-) Karen Marie

Well, I for one think Hazies tirade is out of line. I was at work while all this was going on and therefore not able to say anything. I though it was sort of over. I have to say I would have agreed with NT. Sorry Hazie, some of us aren't sitting by the computer all day to see what you are going to say next. A lot of people don't check in EVERY day, let alone several times. We don't all work 9-5 mon - friday either

AND I disagree. Some of the Newbies that have been lurking have been doing mosaics. Others are learning. I don't think there are only one or two talented people here and that we need them to learn.I could paint out SEVERAL newbie projects that are spectacular

As for the exchange, the rules were to be set by the person. Frankly because the Christmas exchange got to be such a mess. I found nothing rude about it and since the exchange is optional, just don't do it!!

No one it taking over the forum!! There are ALWAYS people who post more,respond more etc... NT is one of the people that goes OUT OF HER WAY to help newbies and find old post.

Whoever wants to leave GO and leave us to getting back to mosaics and having fun!!

Maria

Oh guys...can we please just stop and think a second. (Imagine a begging, ok-more like whining- tone of voice here.) Many of us had no idea that what we were doing/posting was causing any issues. For those of us who did that, I think everyone has said sorry and we'll be more careful in the future. Each one of us is capable of deciding where our posts belong. And on occasion, someone may need/want an reminder.

I couldn't bare to think anyone left the forum because they felt we weren't listening and taking their feelings into account. Everyone is valuable. We get many laughs out of the nonsense and we get great joy and inspiration out of the works of art. I think most of us come here to get a daily dose of inspiration. How many times have any of you shared what you saw/read on this forum because it was so danged funny or outright gorgeous? This is a funny and talented group of people. And the people here are what make this place so much fun and inspirational.

Yes, maybe we're having growing pains right now, that's understandable. We can't make anyone stay or go. But we can police ourselves and we can certainly be nice to one another.

I hope anyone who reads this post will take it in the kindest way possible because that is how I meant it!!

This forum already has guidelines set out by GW posted at the top of the forum:

"This forum is for those working with stained glass and mosaics to discuss techniques and materials."

It stands to reason that anything pertaining to stained glass or mosaic projects is appropriate for the "discussion" side of this forum. Anything off topic/personal should be on the conversations side. I'm not sure I understand what the confusion is over since it's spelled out so clearly by the folks who created and maintain this forum, to whom I'm grateful.

Personally, the quality of project sharing, encouragement, knowledge and expertise offered on this board is what initially drew me here. The clashing of personalities is taking away from joy of the art. Lets bring the discussion side of this board back into focus please - stained glass and mosaics.

Check your ego at the door, encourage those who share their work, and continue to demonstrate good netiquette.

FYI
If something that someone has created touches your soul, right click on the picture and save it to your hard drive. If an information packed thread is in danger of scrolling off, highlight it, copy (control C) and paste it (control V) into a document and save it to your hard drive.

I posted a comment on the other side.

icheer, I do just what you suggested to save favorites. I'm glad you posted that.

Geez Louise! I was in California on a business trip & couldn't wait to come back & see what all I missed. This has always been the most encouraging, loving forum around. I am sorry for all the hurt feelings that have happened.

Sometimes I say things that don't come out right but when you are talking to someone you can see immediately if it was taken wrong & explain yourself & fix it. Unfortunately, that is not the case on the Internet. And it sometimes explodes involving a bunch of misunderstandings. This is one perfect example.

Please everyone take a deep breath. Can't everyone put their heads together & fix all this?

We don't need one big moderator. Can't we make a thread where everyone votes on where everything should be & then when someone posts something in the wrong place they are told KINDLY where it belongs by whoever finds the post? That way newbies learn & everyone is reminded at the same time where conversations should be & discussions should be. If everyone does the correcting & not one person, not one person is in charge & this forum gets back to being the best forum around?

Posts dropping off is going to happen regardless. The only solution would be to start our own forum but I don't think anyone wants that.

If I have ever caused hurt feelings, I never would have meant to & I'm sure that's how everyone else here feels too. I love everyone's work & admire all the talent, advice, & encouragement that I get here.

Everyone please kiss & make up. We need a group hug!

Carol

Please see the poll on the Discussion side.

Oops! I meant "Conversation" side. (See, I can't even keep it straight when I'm trying really hard!)

In TOTAL HONESTY,I still don't know what the big deal is.Is it because the board is moving too fast ? I've seen the demise of many forums...I don't think this place is anywhere near it. It's just a bump in the road. I've been posting anything and everything about glass ,techniques ,patterns,glue ,whatever - on this side. My own private life goes on other side for fun. I've always done it this way .... & always will . We'll get back to normal soon.

Posted on conversation side of the original post.

I haven't had much to contribute to the forum. I'm a newbie and someone with self-esteem issues which make me a perfectionist, so I'm having trouble getting started. The thing that I liked so much about this forum was that everyone was so supportive. No matter how bad a project was someone usually had a kind word to say, or in my case just didn't say anything.

I can't believe some of the things I've read on this board, especially today. I think there is someone trying to run the show, but it isn't NT, and the person wanting to run it isn't suited to doing so. I also believe Hazie was WAY out of line.

I just wanted to say, Ive been coming to this board since the gals came over from GJ, and have loved everyone here and everything I have seen and learned here. And I never in my wildest dreams thought I would see this stuff here. Its very sad.

ww, we are trying to wrap this up on the conversations side. I think we've all taken our lumps and offered sorrys. at this point, I hope that I'm not out of line in asking that we could all just let this thread slip away. So those of us with regrets can have a chance at making things ok again?

Amen!