We looked at the Anderson line including the Renewal by Anderson window and didn't like the look of their windows. We also looked at the Okna 800 windows which I agree looked very very nice for a vinyl window. We are probably down to 3 windows in our search. The Okna 800, Sunrise's Restoration and Marvin's Infinity windows. Both the Marvin and Sunrise use the same Cardinal Glass XL spacer. I've been told by pros here the Okna 800 uses the Duralite spacer that Okna calls the Heatseal.

I agree, the Andersen Tilt Wash is very cheap looking and customers hate the way it tilts. He probably chose to show you the Tilt Wash because its cheaper than the Woodwright.
The reason your contractor wont give out the air leakage number on the andersen is because its extremely high. The Ufactor of .31 is also high and quite frankly cant compete with the higher end vinyl offerings which have total Ufactors of .26 and .25 which is a very big difference.
I remember calling Pella and asking for their structural numbers including air leakage and they were very evasive and wouldnt give me the results. Its obvious to me, they are hiding it because its not very good.
The andersen 400 woodwrite looks nice but again, it lacks in performance.
When customers hear the name " Andersen", they automatically think its a great window when in fact their higher end " woodwright" is only average. Customers know the brand name because its heavily marketed and in virtually every building supply store and are sold to not only good contractors but unskilled contractors as well; in other words, anyone with a pulse.
Higher end vinyl windows are only offered to selected contractors which avoids unnecessary service calls that are installation issues which are so common with contractors who install anything the supply house offers.
The Okna 800 is a great window and looks nice. Another higher end vinyl brand is the Elements window by Soft Lite.

This post was edited by doorproz on Sun, Oct 27, 13 at 15:41

Anderson has there performance numbers for every product listed at there website.They like many other wood window manufactures will post a passing number of 0.30 for air infiltration. Some vinyl companies will post a number for air infiltration but it is based only on one test size that is not uniform through the industry which can be misleading.Try calling some of the higher end vinyl companies and getting there air numbers on all sizes tested. Simonton is the only company that I know that list multiple sizes of tested windows which of coarse has multiple different air infiltration numbers.

+1 to Todd's comments. You have to drive the data down a bit further to really evaluate it in many cases.

Some folks test abnormally large window to establish their air infiltrations numbers and artificially push them down (Air Infiltration is an average number based on square footage).

You want to see air infiltration test sample of less than 110 UI in most cases. That is what I see on the Soft-Lite and Okna reports.

Most,if not all higher end vinyl test the same size for air leakage Todd. Simonton have much less than desirable air leakage numbers.

Most of the companies do not test the same sizes. My reference to Simonton was not to insinuate that they had low air numbers but to show that air numbers are not the same throughout the size range and to commend them for putting the numbers on there website for all to see. I think it is on the nfrc website that Okna list there DH window with a 0.10 AI number. If anyone has a data sheet on any of the top recommended windows showing all sizes tested I would love to see it.

Okna list their window with an air leakage number of .01 NOT .1 on their DH.
The size tested was the same as simonton who get a .17 which to me is high.

Doorproz is correct, okna has a .01 air leakage same with soft lite " elements".
Simontons is rather high, although not as bad as andersen or alside.

Most companies use a 36 x 63 double hung for testing. That seems to be the standard/ common size.

I believe that this was already hashed out in another thread Todd. Okna publishes the size tested (anywhere from 36-40 x 63 in DH) right along with the rating in their literature. This size range is the "norm" for what is widely accepted. In my opinion, the companies like Simonton that list a wide range of sizes only do so to make things more confusing and distract consumers from the fact that their own window in that normal size range is not as impressive. Don't get me wrong, I believe that Simonton is a fine window, but I also do not believe that giving information that makes things more confusing to compare "apples to apples" is of any benefit to MOST consumers. Ultimately, I do strongly recommend that people verify the size of the window tested regardless of brand, and I'm sure that we all agree there. A much larger window will have a lower air infiltration rating which can be used by salespeople of questionable motivation and ethics, particularly if that is an area of emphasis.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the infiltration rating on the Marvin Infinity window?

Marvin usually just list 0.30 which is just a minimum passing rate. The actual number will below this and will depend upon test size. They kind of do it the opposite of some vinyl companies and post worst case number while vinyl will post best case number.
NFRC list Okna at zero point one (0.1) and their web page list it at zero point zero one (0.01) with the disclaimer as quotes "all test numbers are based on tested window sample by NFRC and AAMA testing window guidelines. Use for comparison purposes only. Actual values may vary depending on installation, size, and other conditions." I think this a bit more misleading than the way Simonton does it. or anyone else for that matter.
Can anyone post the test results of all sizes windows tested for any of the top recommended vinyl windows? I didn't think so.

The Infinity is .27 on that size if I'm not mistaken.
The reason that some companies choose to post the "worst case", or no number at all, is when they have less than stellar ratings.
Regarding the NFRC listing of Okna at 0.1, that is only because NFRC does not publish numbers below 0.1 (nor do they administer or regulate the testing), and further this is the reason why most manufacturers do not elect to put the AI rating on the NFRC sticker. Why advertise performance that is WORSE than what the window actually tests as? The same rating would be listed for Okna, Softlite, etc-- all windows with outstanding air infiltration performance.

A list of results for various windows sizes could most certainly be provided by any manufacturer, however it would be fairly irrelevant and serve to offer nothing more than confusion. Again, let me stress, I DO encourage consumers to verify that they are comparing apples to apples in terms of size of window tested, I just don't see the benefit in offering dozens of listings.

Okna should have done like the others on the NFRC site and just not posted or shown the air number. It really would not be that confusing if they listed all, quite the opposite and relevant in my opinion.
So come on and post up some numbers.

Here are a couple of screen shots from the pdf.

Results....

Okna is very transparent. They list their air leakage number and the window size is 36 x 63 and 40 x 63; 2 of the most common sizes tested, simonton, because their air leakage numbers are high, they list a bunch of sizes which to me is meant to confuse potential customers.
Marvin is a .27 as homesealed mentioned. That is a very high number in my view. Air leakage needs to be the lowest number possible.

Thanks WOW, but i was looking to see if they had a spread sheet like Simonton's that list 28 test sizes just for the 5500 alone.
If Simonton wanted to hide there AI numbers they could just not post them on there website.They could also be deceitful and post a 0.07 AI number for a 53x71 and put a disclaimer in small print.
Does anyone know if Simonton test their windows with sash reinforcement. The Okna listed does and this can greatly enhance AI performance numbers, up to a 0.04 difference on some of the Soft-Lites I have seen data for.
What is the standard test size for a slider?

The Okna 500 was tested with NO reinforcement and that window has an air leakage number of .02 which is outstanding... Adding reinforcement to the okna doesnt really make a difference Todd. Sorry.

"They could also be deceitful and post a 0.07 AI number for a 53x71 and put a disclaimer in small print."

Todd, you know as well as I that this type of move is EXACTLY what many dealers and sales guys do, and it is very misleading. An expansive list with a bunch of obscure sizes and confusing results only serves to give them the ammunition to do so. I'm not sure how many people are following this conversation, but I'd be very interested to hear feedback from consumers on which method they find to be more helpful in listing ratings.
Lastly, many manufacturers most certainly DO have something to hide in terms of their ratings, if they did not, they would publish them in their literature for coinsumers to make informed buying decisions rather than bury them in a website or not offer them at all.
You don't strike me as the slick "sales" type Todd, so I'm not sure why you would not be all for manufacturers presenting objective data and doing so in a clear and concise way, as opposed to leaving things either unsaid or overwhelmingly confusing thereby relying on "smoke and mirrors" type sales presentations.

My thought process is, test windows that are most representative of the windows that we typically install.

The 40 by 63 seems to be a pretty consistent size amongst Okna, Soft-Lite, Gorell, Sunrise, etc.

Even if they were to drop that window size a bit (i.e. 36 by 60), the 14% offset in size would still (in theory) yield a sub 0.02 air leakage rate.

Simonton's info is not buried in their webite.
Posting all test sizes to me is more clear and consise than posting one number with a disclaimer or no disclaimer at all.

It would be nice to see all numbers so we would not have to use theoretical numbers.
So does any one have them?

What a ridiculous argument.
1.Nobody tests every size available, so you will always be dealing in theory. As Widows on Washington said, citing the result of a common size that is consistent across manufacturers is only logical, and makes for easy apples to apples comparison for consumers. Ratings will change in a linear fashion with size due to the way that they are gathered and computed, so it is not like product A will have a better rating than product B at size X, yet they flip-flop at size Y. That is not how it works.
2. Insinuating that a disclaimer is improper is off-base. It does not change the legitimacy of a rating, it is pointing out that these ratings are taken in a laboratory, so other factors may affect them. All ratings regardless of manufacturer should have the same disclaimer as it applies to all equally.
3. I could not find these ratings on Simonton's website to reference. Not saying that they are not there, but I would agree that they are buried. I'd also agree that the reason to publish an entire list of ratings is to make it more difficult to compare accurately. We saw this in action recently in another thread where a home owner was provided with a very low AI number on a product and asked why the discrepancy in her post, only to find out that the sales person gave her the rating from an obscenely large test size.

What exactly are you getting at here anyway Todd? What is your agenda? It seems like you are trying to say that there is something improper with the manufacturers that list their AI ratings in their literature as though they should be listing more ratings, yet you defend other manufacturers that do not list ratings in their literature at all, or simply quote a "passing grade" of "under .30"? That makes no sense. Even if it is listed on a website, most homeowners look at product brochures and do not comb through manufacturer websites. Are you for more information or less? Are you trying to insinuate some impropriety toward specific manufacturers? If so, come out and say it because otherwise your posts are absolutely pointless. If you want a list of ratings from Okna or Softlite then contact them, I'm sure that they will supply it. What will that accomplish anyway? As if that would somehow expose some hidden facts? This whole thing is extremely bizarre.

Off my soap box.
Gwenrick, I do not think that you are being overly analytical at all. Every window has the same tests done, that sales person is just uninformed, or does not want to provide the ratings because they are not very good.

I can't even find that on the SImonton site Todd.
I guess we can agree to disagree on which method is more helpful. As I said before, I'd be interested in hearing which way consumers prefer. My thought is that more information is generally better-- until it begins to make things more confusing and harder to compare, and when it creates an environment that is more easily manipulatable for unscrupulous sales types.

On the Simonton site you click on windows, then you choose the style, then you choose the model, then you choose downloads, then you choose structural data.
I have contacted Soft-Lite and Okna without response as of yet. Simonton was helpful and sent me an updated list in about 10 minutes.
Most of my questions stem from people posting an air infiltration number on the Simontons even though they don't post one. So I look on their site to verify this and they have many listed and they vary quite a bit so of coarse I wonder how other companies vary from the one listed size they usually have.I don't think Simonton is doing this to hide behind a bunch of numbers or to confuse since none of numbers are that great.
I'm not a big Simonton fanboy but for me I prefer their method, from a sales point of view yes it would be easier and more straight forward to have just one number,especially a good one but since we know there are more I sure would like to see them.
On a side note I did notice that Andersen has listed air numbers for their latest window in their brochures which aren't to bad for their low end window (100 series). I did not see a test size listed though, but still a big change from their usual Anyways I will be looking into this more as time allows.
Have a nice day.

Todd, why dont you post the andersen air leakage number if its " not that bad "?

SH 0.10
Slider 0.08
Casement Fixed Not great but not bad,interesting the glider performs better then the slider.both only have one operator though and I am not fond of overall design. The casement looks to be a nice window with a nice price.
They have been a good company to deal with as well.

Thanks for the direction on that Todd. Looks like the 5500 is a .16 in a 40x64 test size. To me, simply putting that number on their website and literature would be less confusing than that list of sizes which seems to have no rhyme or reason, but again, I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

Despite the advice offered above, I'm not sure if you'll have much luck in getting direct info from Okna or Softlite. In my experience the refer all inquiries to their dealer networks.

I dont see a double hung listed, only single hung. .
.10 on an andersen single hung is pretty high since its only one sash thats operable.
As far as their casement and their fixed, virtually every casement window or fixed will have a low air number because they dont open up and down: a fixed doesnt open at all. Of course the leakage will be next to nothing.

This post was edited by mmarse1 on Sat, Nov 2, 13 at 16:20

There is no DH in 100 series.
As i said, not great but not bad.
The AI numbers for there single hung compare well with Some of Soft-Lites offerings in double hung. Soft-Lite list all there AI numbers except for the Barrington Single hung so it was difficult to compare to that. Gerkins single Hung comes in at 0.04 vs 0.05 for there double hung so at least with them there is not much difference.
Soft-lites casements in the lower lines come in at 0.05.
could not locate any slider AI numbers for Soft-lite, some reason there hard to find. Gerkins come in at 0.04,Okna 500 come in at 0.09.
Anyone have the AI nubers on Any of the Soft-Lite sliders or the Barrington single-hung? I think the Andersen would fare well against the All Ultrex Marvin or any of Marvins windows for that matter.

That is great feedback Kelly. Thanks for coming back and posting some follow up.

Excellent feedback indeed, great to hear that you are satisfied with your choice.

Great info. We have an Okna sales guy local installer coming Friday for an estimate. If you see this message I would
Love to get an idea on price although it was 4 years ago.

We have also been doing extensive research thanks in large part to this site and some of the insightful posters. We saw all the usual suspects including andersen and pella. We were shown the Okna 600 and liked the window more than andersen believe it or not. We have a total of 10 double hungs with no grids. We are doing a ” basic replacement ” and we were quoted $7600 for all 10 windows including installation ( Okna 600 deluxe ). We actually signed a contract last week and think we were given a competitive price although we didnt base our decision soley on price. We should have our windows installed in late February based on all the supplier issues everyone is facing.

We are also having a front door installed by the same company and we chose a fiberglass entry door by HMI Doors based on their recommendation. Its a craftsman style door with no side lites and we are paying $3400 including installation. Needless to say, we are excited and can’t wait for our new windows and door.

Looks like some very good picing. The Okna 600 is a very good window and has a nice look to it. You will be happy with it.

We got a pretty good quotes on the Okna 600 eco pro deluxe. 13 double hung with grids $7985. New fiberglass door with one sidelight $4600 installed.

That is an unbelievably cheap price for that window and also cheap for a door and a sidelite. I would jump all over that pricing because I do know Okna, as well as many other manufacturers are raising prices again. Supplier issues and component/ material costs are through the roof. Price increases are happening across the board. good luck.

We thought it was a good deal too. Installer has great reviews but we worry he may go out of business. Half due when signing contract and half when job is complete. Windows installation estimated to be end of April/ March timeframe. Is that the normal upfront rate?

They are custom sized windows , 50% dowm is common where I am from. We demand 50% down as well. We simply walk away if a customer doesnt feel comfortable.

Why would your contactor go out business? If he or she has a physical location, chances of that happening are small. Any company can go under regardless of size. Im sure customers never thought a large company like Sears would ever go under since they were so big.

Based on materials increases and labor...I am not sure how that's possible to sell for that. But that is a great window.

So that’s exactly why I worry about going out of business and other things. Price seemed to good to be true. I have a message out to them to see if there are any hidden charges. But if not I am signing.

That pricing was low in 2013.