I like your space!

If you want us to see your other options, take a picture of them.
Definitely would use drawers in the island and not rots. Except in a pantry cabinet, use a lot of drawers. Put doors on one or two cabinets if you have something odd sized to store like a big mixer, but otherwise for pots and pans use drawers. Mixing bowls? -- drawers. Etc. Etc.

As a general rule, use fewer, larger cabinets where you can. For example, see if you can use two 30" cabinets instead of the 27", 12" and 24". Can you kill (looks like) 6" bpos in favor of turning the 24" base into a 27" base with a filler right beside the pantry. Then turn both the 27" and the 30" into pot and pan drawer units.

Beware of uppers next to deeper units. The doors on the wall cabinets beside the pantry and the ref will not be able to open all the way - door handles will run into the other cabinets.

Thinking about everything you're worried about with the ref, I hate to add to it. You haven't left enough room in front of the ref to cover different appliances, being able to open different styles of ref doors or being able to maneuver the appliance into and out of its hut. Hang in there a second, cause this is tough.

A cabinet is generally considered 24" deep. But in reality, the countertop extends 1.5" beyond the cabinet - so the depth for counting aisles is really 25.5". Off the bat, you probably have 3" less aisle because of the counters on both sides. A ref generally sticks out into the aisle an undetermined amount. Real expensive refs like Miele or Subzero don't but everything below that price level pretty much does. A counter depth ref can be up to 30" deep (including the airspace), so your aisle between the ref and the island is more like 32". That's all you can plan on until you pick an actual ref.

With a 32" aisle, all you can have is a french door ref or a side by side. With any form of a wide door ref, you wouldn't be able to open it without hitting the island.

Personally, I'd try putting the ref and the pantry on the wall that currently contains the pantry and move the range to the wall with the sink. I'd keep the window over the sink as large as I could - even if that meant I was cutting the wall cabinets on that side.

I might also try using different island shapes and moving the cleanup sink to the island. I would consider lessening the amount of seating space.

Good point on the upper cabinets not opening past 90 degrees (next to fridge and pantry).

The 43 and the 40" indicated between the island and L shape is already allowing for the 1.5" overhang of laminate counter. That is the one thing I did make sure of.

Having the sink in the island is not my first choice. The plumber discouraged it due to venting anyhow.

Other input is greatly appreciated.

Just saying. My locality lets you place a sink anywhere with one of these as long as the main stack is properly vented. I think it costs about $20.

Here is a link that might be useful: Oatey secondary vent.

Even if you add in the missing 3", all of the ref problems remain - it'll be painful to impossible to service, you can't get a single door unit, etc.

You are right - the frig is still an issue...

Bump for more input from others

malhgold = I can make the island narrower (nixing the 12" cabinets under the overhang) thus pushing it further away from the frig. Island base is 36" wide (so 24" deep with a set of 12" cabs under overhang). I definitely agree in moving it closer to range area - that can be lessened.

Is there such thing as too much space between island and wall run with sink?

Downstairs layout? - its a long family room that is also being reno'd. Would a pic of it help you?

I meant a layout of the rooms that surround the kitchen.

Where is the family entrance? That's the location the Message Center should be near.

Still working on your layout...but I just noticed you have the email option turned off in your profile. This means you are probably not getting copies of follow-ups emailed to you even though you checked the box to do so when you created this thread.

See the "Read Me" thread for more information. Scroll down to the "Getting Emails Sent To You...3-step Process" post in that thread.

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If You're New To GW Kitchens!

Thanks Buehl. I made the corrections to my email settings in my profile.

I will also post the blue print showing the flow of rooms (including the new addition).

OK. So here is the blueprint to show relationship of trafic flow to new addition.

Note: The island drawing does not reflect the overhang on right and bottom 2 sides.

Note: The wall space to the left of patio door is slated as the future message wall (mail,school pwk, calendar, etc.)

First, my take on your layout...there is a lot of zone crossing with the refrigerator in it's current location with respect to the range and sink. Plus, the DW is in the direct path b/w the refrigerator & range.

A note about the Prep Zone. Most people prep next to a water source so their Prep Zone ends up next to a sink. The ideal location of the Prep Zone is b/w a water source and range next to each other or across from each other. If there's no sink in the island, then your sole water source is your Cleanup Sink, so you will most likely prep on the perimeter counter rather than the island. However, the island can serve as a secondary Prep Zone or maybe just as a homework/craft site!

Here's your layout with the zones & traffic laid out. Notice how there's criss-crossing across the Cleanup Zone to get to the Prep & Cooking Zones and notice how the DW is in the direct path. Additionally, note that part of your kitchen is not used...it's almost wasted space. Everything is crunched into the one side, making it difficult for more than one or two of you to work there at one time.

*****

How about something like this? It protects the Prep & Cooking Zones and separates them from the Cleanup Zone. There is very little Zone crossing. It puts the refrigerator & MW on the periphery so kitchen workers as well as "outsiders" can access them without getting in each others way. Also, notice how the entire kitchen is used, there's no wasted space. I think 4 of you could easily work in this layout.

And the Zones + Traffic:

*****

This is something different...the sink wall & range wall are switched. However, it will only be feasible if you're willing to move the sink out from under the window and move the window "up". It gives you a lot more space in your primary Prep Zone (b/w the range & sink).

And Zones...

Layout #3 is similar to Layout #1...location of MW is the primary change...

Thanks Buehl!
I had played around with a layout on graph paper that looks similar to #1.

I agree the flow is better.

The only concern with this layout is the amount of large pan/pot storage drawers. It's less since Im needing to eat up 9" to the right of the fridge...I have a different spot for the brooms, etc. so trying to think of what else I could use that 9" for? Make it 12" and use it for other storage?

Micro - may need to do internal venting above stove due to angle of roof? Would like to use the island for larger storage if possible (banks of 30 - 36" drawers). Im assessing how many I need in the kitchen.

Not sure if I mentioned this but the pantry is a pull out with 5 drawers. Is this a "similar issue" with being on the end and being widely used (like the fridge)? We plan on putting snacks as well as all other food in it.

I should have mentioned this before (it was late!), but I think #1 is your best layout b/c of...

• Workflow,

  (Yes, it would be better to have refrigerator --> Sink --> Range, but only if you have a Prep Sink or you don't have a DW. With only one sink, the DW gets in the way of that arrangement, so this is better)

• Logical separation of the major zones,

• Easy access to refrigerator & MW for both kitchen work & snacks,

• No zone-crossing, and

• Protection of the Prep & Cooking Zones from through-traffic in the kitchen.

Note that even though the refrigerator is farther into the kitchen, it's a straight shot to get to it from the LR, table space, or bedroom areas...and no interfering with work going on in the kitchen!

I know you have an OTR MW in your layout, but to be honest with you, I really do not recommend one.

• They're usually very ineffective hoods b/c they're too shallow and b/c they're just not designed that well as a hood (they're real purpose is a MW, venting is more of an afterthought)
• They're rather short for a MW (at least my sister's is...but she has a very, very tiny kitchen and had no other place for a MW, so she's stuck with it)

They're not the safest things to use b/c they're so high and you have to reach up and over a hot range as well as steaming/splattering/smoking food. If you're short or a child, they become very dangerous b/c you're either reaching inside above or at your eye level or you're using a chair to get to it.

Try taking a dish full of water (use cold for safety!) out of a shelf that's as high as an OTR MW is...unless you're incredibly well-coordinated, you'll have trouble blindly reaching up & in and then blindly pulling it out while keeping it perfectly level and perfectly "calm" so nothing sloshes over the edge. Your youngest will certainly not be able to do this even when she's old enough to start using the MW.

Now, imagine doing this with boiling water/steam, smoke, or high heat rising or grease splattering...
If someone needs to use the MW while someone else is working at the range, you'll have a bottleneck...this could be someone who's defrosting something for dinner, cooking veggies or other dish for dinner, or someone trolling for a snack.

A MW drawer, regular one mounted below the counter/on the counter/hanging from upper cabinets, or a built-in one is much safer and easier to use. [If any of you are even slightly tall, then I'd nix the idea of mounting a regular one below the counter b/c of bending over, reaching in, and pulling out...all would be done blindly for someone even the slightest bit tall. (Besides, drawers are great...you open it, look down, stir, close...all without taking the dish out! Plus, it has a "cool" factor...especially favorable with the guys!)]

Pantry...

• It depends on the handles you use & whether you have hinges on the wall side of the cabinet. But since you seem to only have a 30" deep wall, even the hardware & hinges...

Buehl;
Pantry
I should have clarified - it will be 5 ROTS, not drawers. Sorry. Still pursuing different options - Saw one on here that had drawers on bottom and ROTS in middle and liked it. Dynasty brand has 100lb glides, but not so sure on the drawer options. May not go with them anyhow.

Microwave
This is the hard one. I have a gas stove with micro above now. . . Works OK. Don't think about it much. Im 5' 3" and rest of family not much taller. Giving serious consideration to the micro drawer. Had it in my first draft from Lowes. Still on the fence as its more $. We use ours mainly for leftovers. You have several good points.

Layout
Agree that the small space to right of frig would be great for snacks/pull out. Its a hard sell for my DH. He really likes the frig by sink - I think its too tight.

DW - funny you should mention that. Not sure I want one. Hardly ever use the one I have now. Only putting it in for the sake that "maybe I'll use it more once I have a bigger kitchen". Considered the 18" option too.

You mentioned layout is typically frig, sink, stove.
If we moved the patio door down a foot do you think that having the frig to left of sink would work yet? (possibly moving the dw to the right of sink then?)

Mostly bumping this to the front page for you...hopefully...but also looking it over, I have some comments.

I'm liking Buehl's plans, for the most part. I think I'd prefer #3 to #1, but they're pretty close. I don't like the pantr location, though. I've seen no mention of dish storage, other than in the first post in which you said you want some. The pantry usurps the best location for that, in my opinion. Plus, dish storage, with either a regular upper with open counter, or a down-to-the-counter upper that's only 12-16" deep, wouldn't make that run feel so closed in, and will allow a broader beam of light into the room from the patio door. If you don't need the whole thing for dishes, the top could hold dishes while drawers in the base could be used for some of the other things you want to store. The cabinet next to the fridge could be your snack center/some pantry storage, as Buehl suggested, and the island could be helpful in that way, too.

I agree with Buehl on OTRs, but if you have one and like it, I guess that's your test. It bothers me the way they block access and view of the back of the stovetop and would be in your face as you cook.

Have you had ROTS before? If you have and like them, that's great. But if you haven't, I have to share that it's no exaggeration when I say I hate them, and love drawers. To use the ROTS, you have to open both doors (if there are 2, obviously), and ALL the way out or the pull out will scrateh the door...been there, done that! Plus things always fall off sides, or hang off, impeding the roll out or the roll back in. You can't fit nearly as much, as they aren't forgiving to any overcrowding. Just my experience and my opinion.

Bump