No, using a 24" stove is not a sacrilege - tho, I'm sure many think so. I've 'cooked' for myself for 13 yrs on a single burner hotplate and a small counter top oven (just a bit bigger than a mw).

Thru-out my yrs of marriage and raising 4 kids I used a small oven - it was over the cook top like many put their mw today. and again, it wasn't much (if any) bigger than a mw. My first mw was bigger than my oven. And I cooked a LOT. We seldom went out, had take out or frozen type meals. We lived in the country and this was in the 70's.

I easily cooked a small turkey (14 lbs about) at holiday time. It was plenty for our family of 6 - with leftovers.

I also baked a lot using that small oven. Cookies, cakes - home made bread, etc.

My cook top was an old time corning cook top and it was flat up to the fridge on the left side. I did have a good amount of counter top to the right of it tho. But, many, many cooks have no problem cooking w/o a huge amount of counter to either side of their stove. The best cook I know (and who taught me most of what I know about it - including canning) had NO counter space on either side of her stove! She baked up a storm - her meals and baked goods where widely known and people knew that going to her house for any occasion meant better eating than any of our best restaurants!

If I could find a good 24" stove I'd probably get one for my 'soon to be' new kitchen. I think tho I'm going to go with GEs 2 burner cook top or maybe even a coil burner cook top. I have a fear of dropping something on a glass type cook top and cracking it.

It looks like you might also be able to put a shallow table / cabinet to the left of the stove - running along the pony wall.

Don't let anyone make you feel bad or that you need to go bigger just 'because' that's what's done these days... what real people are using all over this country in their kitchens isn't really seen in magazines. or on this forum.

I have no idea about the venting. I've never had one... but will in my 'new' kitchen - because one is already there.

I have no idea how much you all know about building/remodeling, etc., so I will say this in case you don't know: If that chimney stack is not in use, it is not that big of a deal to remove it. We had one in our old house that use to be for the coal burner, I spent oodles of hours trying to work around it sitting in the middle of the basement we were finishing. Eventually a friend (who does construction work) came by and took a look. It did not support the house and voila, it was gone in 2 days and about $1000. I was amazed at the difference it made. It was one of those: who-would-ha-thunk? moments

can you post a plan of the entire kitchen? Some folks here are absolute wizards at maximizing space and functionality and they may be able to give you some great ideas.
As for the 24" range, it can certainly be done and may not be too onerous for you and your family. But it will, I think, be a negative in a resale. Questions to think about:
Is this your forever house? If so, is it your forever kitchen...or are you thinking, do something that will last 5/10/15/ or XXX years and then do a major remodel, maybe adding on to make a larger more functional kitchen?

SEe if you can at least sketch out the whole kitchen, with dimensions marked (as close as possible anyway) and post it in your message.

If you are looking at a house like that and starting off by saying the range "can't be moved," then I'd run away as fast as possible. The layout is completely dysfunctional. There is no landing or prep space, traffic runs right in front of work, and sorry, that oven is tiny. I have a 27" right now and I find it completely inadequate for baking--the air circulation is terrible. I've had ranges with no landing space before and ended up putting hot pans on the floor or burning myself when I turn around to find a spot for them. Just because somebody knows someone who knows someone who can cook a great meal in a dysfunctional kitchen doesn't mean you can, or want to.

Speaking as someone who bought an old house with a hard-to-fix dysfunctional kitchen.

Post the layout with exact measurements, if possible, and the assembled layout genii here will help you get the very most out of it.

I disagree with Marcolo re. the small oven, especially if you are not a big baker. I bake all the time with my 18"x20" (yes!) 1949 oven, and it's marvelous. Thanksgiving turkeys and all. (I suspect the smaller size is actually a boon to achieving even temperatures, and it's much more energy-efficient.) But he's right about the landing space: that should be a non-negotiable must for remodeling this space.

You will find in a remodel that things you considered "fixed" (like the chimney, the range, sinks etc) are actually not, or not so much. I wouldn't worry about the appliances as is, since there's a very good chance you will find deals on new/different ones that fit your plans better, as the remodel proceeds.

Love the doors and transoms!

all i can add now is a statement to confirm that each of the four posts preceding mine was right in her approach. In my opinion. Yes, a 24"wide oven works well and holds a lot. Many people have them and use them and are happy with them.

As circuspeanut said, things are not as fixed as they appear to be. Any thought that "moving it is not an option" will be refuted by many. There may be potential for improvement in the layout.

Since you are new at this, I'll tell you something you need to know. It's a lot of work to go back and measure the distances from the four corners and then to draw it on graph paper. But if you resist doing this, you are best to buy a non-renovating house. Some people are under the illusion that one can renovate without any hard thinking. All pro's and all homeowners have measured the space.

confirm that each of the _5_ posts preceding mine was right

(didn't mean to leave anyone out)

I've baked in my 24" built-in wall oven for 9 years. We are now planning a new kitchen and will probably build that same 9-year old oven in again. It didn't even occur to me that maybe I should replace it with a bigger oven. Not having a landing space next to it seems a bigger problem to me. But maybe you have a kitchen island on wheels that you could roll right next to your range, or could you make a counter to the left of it over some shallow wall cabinets (perpendicular to the chimney)?

Toine, CT

Hi dusterella,

I cook with a 24" wall oven. It's not big enough to hold a half sheet baking pan (13" x 18"), but I use 9x13 quarter sheet pans (and my cooking life improved when I found good-quality grid racks that fit inside them).

Other pans that may be an issue for oven size are roasters and saute pans. You want a roaster no longer than 15"; rectangular bakers (lasagna pan) likewise, though if there are not wide handles/ridges it can go to 16". Saute pans can go in so that the handle is on a diagonal; in this case you just have to try yours to make sure it fits (10" ones without super-long handles should be fine, but larger and longer-handled ones may be iffy).

For a small(ish) household, a big oven is a waste of energy unless the cook is an avid baker. For the kind of family cooking you do, it should be fine. I'd be more concerned about the cooktop being large enough to accommodate pots you most often use. While you're mulling it over, head there with your pans and simulate cooking a meal (and test the oven fit of your biggest pans). Imagine a landing space that you build in or use a cart for...

Insights from recent renovation of a small 1923 foursquare:

In the kitchen, we moved the gas line so as to relocate the stove, moved the water lines so as to relocate the sink, and moved the heating pipes so as to relocate the radiator. This work was done in conjunction with a to-the-studs demo, but it doesn't seem to have cost a huge amount and it left the exposed parts of the floor in tact.

The chimney in the corner of the kitchen, which serves only the boiler, was not handsome enough to expose, but removing it from the basement through the roof would have been preclusively expensive. Ruefully, I decided to box it in with drywall and butt a bookshelf up to it in the dining room. The result is a two- rather than a three-seat peninsula where the wall between the kitchen used to be. More painfully, the result is that the light from the side window of the kitchen is cut off and what would have been a nice combined 26' open space is not quite that.

The point is that you have to set investment priorities and try to figure out what you can live with.

The house looks very cool, and the chimney is handsome. If you are serious about making an offer, you should bring in a contractor you trust to give you some ballpark figures for the trade-offs and the costs of the changes you think you want to make.

It looks like a great adventure to me. Best of luck.

Sorry, I didn't make this "moving it is not an option" thing clear - I don't have a budget for that - or for removal of the old chimney, as it goes through walls and such in the second level - and it *may* support some beams.

I have a budget for a nice-ish new range and a nice-ish new fridge and maybe a couple of cabinets/shelves. My budget is about 10K total for the kitchen, and that includes appliances :) So, nothing's moving - no studs-out remodel, just trying to make the best use of the space that's already there...or to see if that's even possible!

The range in the photos is a 30-incher - IF I went down to a 24", then it would give me about 8" of possible countertop space to play with in that 32" area - for a small landing space / spoon holder, etc - plus there's that space below the pass-thru (to the left of the chimney) in which I'll probably put a stand-alone, long, narrow IKEA-type counter / cabinet with wood top for more landing and prep space.

Mostly, I just wanted to get insight on a 24" range (thanks for that everyone!!) and any other ideas for making that space more useable without breaking the bank - AND any info on placing the vent in the wall rather than using up the entire vertical space with a huge hood...Has anyone here switched from a hood to a wall exhaust fan? Something like this - http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/VAS.html

honorbiltkit - your kitchen is beautiful!!! I love subway tiles and white for kitchens - I hate when they do the kitchens in the dark woods these days - seems to really make the space smaller. I wish I could afford to do what you did :-(

Here's a quick sketch of the entire kitchen. Measurements are not exact, but close. Counters are the usual 24" depth. It's not HORRIBLE, but it's odd. I'll probably put a medium size, wood-top rolling cart in the middle for prep work & more storage that can then be rolled to the side under the window when the kitchen is not in use.

Needless to say, we aren't attracted to the house because of the kitchen ;) But I figure since I don't spend a lot of time in there anyway, I can maybe make it work with some good ideas!

I vote no on this house for you. Your budget is small, you are "new" to remodeling (no DIY?), and this kitchen has lots of layout issues. That is a bad combo. The issues are fixable but not for free--things like adding 8" next to the stove is not worth the bother. (What kind of pan can you set down on 8"?)

This kitchen wasn't really renovated, it was just tarted up.

ditto.

there are too many doors and openings to give you any real options.
we might see ways to improve things, if we had money to renovate two rooms at the same time. A larger renovation might reveal a better kitchen.

there are many aspects that don't work right, and in my opinion too many to make it worthwhile to list them, knowing you won't have a budget for the project.

the idea of buying a cart to go under the passthrough has already been mentioned. Buying two carts (One for the other window) might give you even more modular-ism. This won't solve much; it's like when you are camping: you make do with the table surface you have...

Here is a link that might be useful: several carts, like thin tables

I don't share Marcolo's pessimism. A lot depends on what else you like about the house. If it were my new house, I'd put a counter space/landing zone against the wall with the pass-through, cook with what's there for a while, and then make decisions.

If you really like the house and the location I wouldn't let the kitchen stop you from buying the property. We faced the same decision when we bought our current house (1914 Chicago Prairie) except I cook a lot and the kitchen layout was much, much worse. Think hallway with four unmovable doorway. Fast forward a decade and I now have a new, small, dream kitchen in a beautiful neighborhood.

I cooked for years on a 24" stove and oven and the only problem is if you have to cook a turkey and side dishes in the oven at the same time. I got a roaster oven to get me through those situations and have managed many a holiday meal just fine.

If I were you I would put a minimal amount of money into the kitchen for now, live in it to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. You certainly have enough continous wall space to get a functional kitchen. Plus it looks like the house hasn't been remuddled over the years. What a bonus!

I appreciate your opinion, marcolo, but I feel like you are being a little bit negative and not open to all possibilities.

Perhaps I shouldn't use the word "remodel" :) Because that's not really what I'm looking for, as I believe I mentioned I wouldn't be moving anything in the original post - just looking for some insight to help utilize what's there. If this is a "remodel only" forum, I'm sorry, I'll go somewhere else :)

What I'm looking for are ideas something like this: instead of an 8" counter / cookie sheet cupboard to the right of a 24" range, maybe I could add a counter-height, 8-inch deep, 24-inch wide bookshelf - with the bookshelves facing out of course :) - and put my cookbooks there, using the top to hold utensils while cooking. Hot pots could be put on a stand-alone cabinet / counter added under the pass-through window to the left of the chimney.

I think if I leave the range free-standing - so it can be easily switched out if I can't deal with it after a while...and when I get some more cash for an actual "remodel" :) - I can make it work for a while. Thanks for helping me think it all through!

We decided to put an offer in because we absolutely love the house, other than the kitchen, and after reading through the responses here and mulling on it overnight, I've decided I can somehow make it work - like I said, I don't spend a lot of time in the kitchen anyway! :)

Thanks all!

If you like the rest of the house and the world does not hinge on the kitchen, go for it. Remember, the folks on this forum jokingly call themselves TKO (totally kitchen obsessed), and they are. I agree with ellabee in that I would put something under the pass through area. Then you would have 8" on the side to give wiggle room and 18" counter along the side for things that need to stay in reach.

To commiserate with you: My kitchen was last renovated in the 1940's, the range and fridge are not built in and they sit independently on 2 different walls and my counter space equals yours on my other wall. I have been here for 10 years, and while I am planning to gut and renovate, it won't be until we have the cash. My love of the house is not diminished by having an awkward kitchen. You can cook anywhere, sometimes you just need to get a little more creative.... There was a thread a while ago on here about NYC kitchens and how some famous cooks have these tiny kitchens and cook gourmet dimmers with only 3 pans and 2 knives kind of thing. A perfect kitchen is not required.

ellabee - exactly what I'm thinking...now just got to figure out if wall venting is do-able in my budget so I can move that dang hood!

skyedog - a roaster oven is a perfect solution; never even thought of that, so thanks!...I'm not a big "kitchen gadget" kinda gal. I've got a blender, a toaster, a mixer and a crockpot and that's about it in the way of kitchen gadgets!

I vote YES on this house for you, dusterella, as you guys are clearly smitten, you know how you cook, and you have an idea of how to make the current kitchen work for you within your budget.

That said, it isn't completely clear to me that a 24" range will yield more landing space than you have now between your two sets of burners. I think something like a freestanding Ikea kitchen cabinet with a butcher block or stainless top running along the pony wall would give you lots of usable space within reach. You also might look at the possibility of running a shallow shelf along the stove backsplash below the hood, for salt, pepper, a crock of spoons and whisks, etc. [All this assumes that the current stove and hood that are not for other reasons unsuitable.]

On the fridge, you might want to think about going whole hog with -- say -- a Liebherr. They are pricey, but you can get them shallow and tall in various widths and they last forever. You can also get good deals on new ones on ebay if you are willing to keep looking.

If you want us all to stick to your questions, you should probably say that -- yeah -- you may want to do more with the kitchen in a few years but now you just want to make it work for you. Otherwise you will be getting really good advice on all kinds of things that are not relevant right now.

Cheers.

PS. I am a big fan of buying a house you love, if you can find one that isn't dripping with obvious liabilities. Any house is going to present problems, and you are more likely to cope with them constructively if you are crazy about the house rather than having concluded that it was a prudent choice.

dainaadele - so funny you should say that -my mom is a great chef (by no means gourmet, but she makes the most excellent comfort food you have ever tasted!) and her kitchen is from the 40s as well - and she has way less counter space than this, even! I know for a fact she would LOVE a new kitchen, but $20K+ is not an option for her, either, so she makes it work!

The original woods, high ceilings, and front and back porches are what really attracted us to the house. It's generally small throughout - only 4 rooms (including the pantry & WC off the kitchen) on the main floor (no hallway - but awesome original and smooth pocket doors between front room and dining room), and 3 bedrooms, 1 bath and a sunporch up - and really nice size closets in the rooms. About 1500 sq ft of current living space. But it has a huge useable attic and a nice size basement that will fit a media room, 2nd full bath & utility room (which is why we only have $10K to spare on the kitchen - ha!). And a garage, which is not the norm in this city!

If you love this house and can't now afford to open up the wall / pass through from kitchen to DR, a quick fix, could be to make the pass through a bit lower and deeper. Is it currently about 8" deep? If you doubled that to 16" deep and had a wider and lower counter on the range side, it might work a bit better. Even with the oven door open, you would still have a few feet of counter next to you if the pass through stays at 50." Right now, my range is in a corner and I can only access it from one side and it doesn't bother me at all. My friend has shutters on her pass throgh which works well for her. If you could find some more old brick (which I'm told is readily available), maybe tile the backsplash above the range in brick too. These two improvements wouldn't cut into your budget too much. Good luck!

Go for it! But don't replace the 30" range with a 24" until you have lived with the kitchen for a while and seen how it works for you. It doesn't seem to me that you really gain much work-space with the 24" anyway, so if the 30" is working okay keep it for now.

The woods in the house you are considering are beautiful, and the house sounds like it has a lot of potential.

I am so glad you put an offer in on the house. I hope you get it. I may be reading in to much of what you say, but it seems as if you and DH are relatively young (at least compared to me) and this might be your first house...or one of the first, anyway. It looks like it's got loads of potential and if you love it, you'll make it work fine until you can afford to do a thorough remodel...or you'll do it slowly over time. Plenty of people, on this forum and IRL live with less than perfect kitchens for a long long time...sometimes forever.

My one bit of advice...if the fridge and stove work...move in and live with everything for a little while. If you must buy somethings to make it work better, buy the least expensive, most flexible options possible, keeping in mind that every dollar you sink in to a temporary solution might be wasted when you have had the time to think through a more comprehensive solution (whether that solution is for 5 years, 10 years or forever). It is extraordinary how your perspectives can change once you are in a place and you start to see other possibilities.

Move in, live with the kitchen for at least 6 months, while you dress up the rest of the house and get really comfortable with it. Then, start to think about how to make the kitchen work better for you. You'll find a way.

Well, our offer was accepted, so we are getting this kitchen with the deal ;) I'm sure I'll be back soon, once we actually begin updates. For now, I think I'll just leave the kitchen mostly as-is and update as we go. I'll probably get a new fridge though, because I can't stand the freezer on the top!!

@melissastar - we are fairly young (I'm 33 and my husband is 31) but this will be our second house. We actually did a bit of a kitchen update in our last house, but a contractor did the whole thing for us - basically just re-finished the cabinets and replaced wall oven & cooktop with an all-in-one range to create more cabinet space. Oh, and replaced the hideous tile countertops with slab granite. I miss that kitchen (he put in roll-out shelving for us in the pantry and pan cupboards - man, I loved those so much), but I HATED the house - a really boring southern california ranch from 1964 with absolutely no character - blech.

Anyway - yay! I'm super excited to get into this house and we'll find a way to make the kitchen work!!

Glad you got the house. Just wanted to add a note about the brick. It doesnt have to be so expensive to remove. Years ago our foundation shifted and damaged a kit fireplace a PO had put in the den. I had little money at the time, so I rented a special power tool/saw, and my little 8-yr old and I took out the chimney brick by brick. Yes, I had a hole in my ceiling and the roof for a little bit. But then the roofers came and yanked out the metal parts and the sheetrock guys were cheap.
So it can be done even on a budget. Even for a non-DIY-er (And I was WAY past 30s then!) Good luck in your new home. enjoy!

I just saw a nice idea in doggonegardener's kitchen posted earlier this week which might give you a little more space by the pass thru. Take a look at her breakfast bar - you could mount it with shelf brackets.

P.S. The brick is so nice and unique. Don't be so quick to rip it out. It might make a nice focal point someday, especially if you decide to open up the space a bit more. Good Luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: doggonegardeners kitchen

Congrats on the house!

My old apartment had a tiny kitchen where the only counter space was above the dishwasher. I bought the 42x20-inch Catskill Craftsmen super island and placed it so that it was right behind me when I stood at the stove. The island's counter space (as well as the storage which I badly needed) really made the kitchen functional. I think something like that under your pass through would be very helpful.

Here is a link that might be useful: super island