I have only used a KD once and it was a really bad experience. I know I would have loved it if she would have listened better and instead of trying to give me her vision, help me find a way of having my vision without having to break the bank and a highly efficient layout. I don't think she had cooked much because i had to really argue about having enough counter space.

The other thing I wish she had been better versed in appliances. I had to do so much research because she couldn't or wasn't interested in giving me an answer.

welcome aboard khat :) lol you don't need to come in peace :o) i think that the majority of us here see the incredible value that a good kd can provide in designing a kitchen that is both functional, and astetically enjoyable.

i started my kitchen (its actually a whole house gut remodel with the kitchen as the major focus) almost two years ago. i visited cabinet shops and a couple design and design build firms (not for me!). i had kd's come out to the house, showed them our functioning goals and explained the astetic goals as well. then rubber met the road and we started getting bids and plans in process, paying as required for some of the work.

heres what i learned right away...the unfortunate problem with your industry (much like the interior decorator issue) is that anyone seems to be able to call themselves a kd, with little to no training. some of the layouts we received were evidecne of no function training (my favorite two had the stove in the doorway to the kitchen and a toilet so close to the 2nd sink in the master that you had to straddle the toilet to use it....and put your head into it to access the cabinet against the wall). i quickly saw that there was a big difference between a ckd and a kd.

but even then the three ckd's that we saw were all drastically different. one TOLD me what i needed in my kitchen...she wanted hand carved beams, unfitted pieces, a very old world feeling...despite the fact that i'd made it clear that we were NOT going in that direction (not appropriate to the structure or space). another only did modern andher proposal included colored metal cabinets (which i'd clearly indicated i hate in the show room....trust me she said, you'll love them). and then number three would not release the plans to me without a cabinet order. mind you we'd paid her a retainer to produce the plans, and it was not in her contract that we had to buy cabs from her. actually, we would have (they had Hertco which i really wanted) but since she wouldn't send me the plans to look at(i was with my 1 year old for a six week hospital stay out of state) we chose to kiss that money goodbye and move on.

i didn't meet with the one kd i should have (ckd) and am using now because i thought i was in a hurry lol so i designed my own kitchen after spending thousands on software, and hours over cab spec books and code books. so...long tory hort, i ended up doing my own, even taking courses in residential design to be sure they made sense. i then paid an architecht and engineer to go over the plans for any issues,,,and i ordered cabs through a kd at a builders warehouse type place. they came...they were terrible (the showroom examples were no longer produced in the US and the new quality was very low).

back those went and i decided i wanted a particular brand (woodmode or omega or hertco) so i ended up at my current kds shop. had i seen her in the first place she would have done the design, but since i'd already done my own, i offered to ay her to gothrough it, tweek as necessary and add a couple wish items.

unlike the other ckds she was wonderful. she did not tell me what i had to have in my kitchen (the others dismissed myfrench range as rediculous and included wine fridges and huge microwaves and wall ovens in their proposals). she listened to what i wanted and we worked as a team to make it work. we have a large wine cellar just steps from the kitchen, and don't microwave our dinners. she loved our range, and even more, she was having a ball with some of my more adventurous choices for materials and fittings. she was frank with me if she thought something should be changed, and as i keep saying,...just kept the team work going.

this gal designs pretty high end kitchens, in many astetics. i saw right away that a good designer will be open to not only one style, but be able to enjoy working with all types of different styles to reach a good design for her and her clients. she did sell the quality of cabs i wanted, and she's been fabulous at getting me other items i needed at reasonable markups. i'm sure she sees a good line of future business from me since we seem to collect homes :oP but i think even if she'd only dealt with me on the first project, i'd still be saying that she's incredibly responsive to her clients needs.

she also never bashes her clients (i know a few who deserved it lol) and is a good corporate citizen. she's also been very understanding about working with me, despite significant challenges (we ordered the cabinets via faxes back and forth to the nurses station at johns hopkins). and last but not least...shes a hoot. i really have enjoyed working with her.

Welcome Khat, no need to come in peace but if you want to come bearing gifts, I think Igloochic favors a nice bottle of wine :)

Given that I was one with strong opinions on the other thread, let me answer your question for you. As you noted, there are good and bad in your profession - like any profession So what makes a good KD.

To me its:

1. Respecting the client
2. Designing for the client's vision, not their own
3. Adhering to the client's budget
4. Being upfront on all cost and business matters
5. Being flexible to adapt to different styles / designs
6. Knowing how to cook (which leads to understanding their way around a kitchen for the most effective workflow)

As to "If you're convinced that we're not neccesary is there anything that would change your mind?"

Well, for some folks KD's are absolutely needed, for others they are not. On this site, you have folks who want to be more involved in the process, have educated themselves and have alot of knowledge. Compare that to someone off the street who simply knows they want a new kitchen.

For me, I would say I would never use a KD on a paid basis just to do a design. I believe I have the skills to lay out what I want for the most part. So in my case, I am more comfortable working with a KD who can take my design on a no charge basis, tweak it somewhat to the cabinetry they represent and present me a proposal that I can accept or reject. This is what I did in our current remodel. I visited 2 showroom KDs representing different semi-custom cabinet lines (Kahles, Omega, Shiloh, Durasupreme) and showed them my design, accompanied by tons of example photo's so they new exactly what I was going for. Each drew up a design (at no cost or obligation) and presented
me a proposal with costs. It was only if I chose to go further in the process would there be any commitment on my part. That is big to me. If I am committing to spend $ with someone I need to be sure I will like the finished product and it will be in my budget.

It is interesting taht even though I presented all 3 the same layout, they all came back with something different. And their attitudes about certain things were also different. One example - it was very important to me to hide our microwave. I showed them exactly what I wanted to do. One said flat out I wouldn't like it and they wouldn't / couldn't do it. Another tried very hard to talk me into the Sharp Microwave drawer even though I told them numerous times we did not want that. The third asked some questions, took some measurements and said no problem - I understand what you want and here is how to best make it work.

Just one example but it is illuminating. FWIW, we ended up going with the third person, both because of this flexibility and understanding of our needs and because we also liked their cabinet line the best (even though it was the most expensive and initially over our budget). We worked with them to make some minor changes to reduce the cost to a level we were comfortable with. This KD made some suggestions along the way, a few we incorporated , a few e didn't. In the end we were extremely pleased with the results. My design and vision worked extremely well and the tweaks and the few suggestions the KD made that we incorporated made it better. I would say in the end over 90% of the finished design was mine, the rest the KDs.

Hope this helps answer your question and welcome

You are very brave to be posting after the other thread! I am working, sort of, with a ckd but I'm disappointed. Here are the issues, both with her and with the industry in general.

1. Fee structure: I'm a lawyer, most of my clients are middle class homeowners worried about their homes, and 90% of my cases are contingency, with a few hourly and a little bit of "other" fees. What I picked up from the other thread is that kds are paid on commission (I didn't know that), which I analogize to contingency. I respect the concept of being paid for thinking, and would no more expect to invite a kd to look at my home, pick her brain, and not pay her than I would expect to give free legal advice at a cocktail party. What's bothering me, in a general sense, are (a) commissions don't seem to be terribly well disclosed and (b) you end up with an inherent conflict of interest in that a KD paid on commission obviously wants to push the costs high while a client usually has a lower budget. My contingency fee analogy isn't perfect because in my plaintiff cases, the defendant -- not my client -- pays the plaintiff, and I take a cut of that.

I suspect that full disclosure of either an hourly or a commission based fee would drive many middle class homeowners away from kds just as middle class HOs don't hire hourly based lawyers if they can at all avoid it.

In my specific situation, I hired a KD based on a friend's recommendation. The kd has recently started working at a kitchen shop carrying 3 cab co lines, and the kitchen shop would then bid on the GC work. I paid her a $1500 design fee, she came up with a design, I ordered the cabs through her, and she gave me a $500 rebate. (Only then did I find this site and realized how I should have shopped around.) I balked at hiring her co as GC and ended up hiring my second choice as GC. She's basically dropped me.

Every effort I made to keep the project in my budget of $50-60K was met with "All kitchens cost $75K these days." Every time I suggested a low budget HD alternative, she had a reason why it wasn't acceptable. For example, I don't get excited by the myriad tile choices out there; I just want a basic subway tile; I told her I wanted HD Daltile. She made a big deal about searching the high end tile specialty store for the least expensive option there ($3/sqft). I ended up buying Daltile for $1.50/sqft. I don't mind running all over town myself for the truly specialized items, e.g. my blue granite, but I shouldn't have to feel like I'm fighting with people over cheap tile!

I believe, based on bits & pieces I've picked up from this site, that her cab co's markup on the mid-range cabs is very high. IOW, she's been paid by me for a design fee (albeit a tad low, but I wasn't one of those who vacillated endlessly) and I suspect she's made a tidy profit from ordering the cabs. Contractors are entitled to a reasonable profit but I've ended up feeling sort of ripped off.

2. Listening to clients...I think that one's been said before, no need to elaborate here.

3. The vision thing. I knew the general look I wanted but I had literally no inspiration pix until I discovered GW because I was planning an unusual granite (thank you, theresab and cloudswift!!!). My KD did computer program line drawings for cab placement but I would have appreciated a lot more input with, perhaps, colored pix and door/drawer style mockups so that I might have discovered the naked end run problem before ordering -- photoshopping the line drawings, hunting through magazines, or ??? Obviously some clients have a very clear and detailed vision but many of us don't.

4. A detailed knowledge of appliances, not a general sense that "Lots of people pick Sharp for microwaves" and "Lots of people around here buy Viking." Which Sharp? And don't get me started on Viking...the appliance forum has already said enough :) I know some of the appliance forum people can be, perhaps, too picky ("My Monosubking only heats to 349 degrees when set to 350!") but there has to be something objective other than CR.

5. I'm leery of big box KDs as a whole because they can be nothing more than glorified cab co rep's -- they know the cabs inside & out but don't have a clue on the rest.

6. I think it's so hard to find the right person! Here I was going from the recommendation of a friend whose perspective was somewhat similar to mine, and I'm still not happy. Lawyers can likewise all sound alike on an initial interview, but you don't know until the end who overbills, who likes to try cases, who returns phone calls, etc. So, what I would look for in a kd: clearly disclosed fee arrangements; recommendations; maybe an acknowledgment of the kd's strengths and weaknesses (I tell my clients that I'm client centered but I don't like to try cases).

Sorry that this has been such a long post -- didn't realize how much I had to vent.

Well, I've just formally started the planning process and have spoken with designers in a couple of independently owned shops where I live. I haven't had anyone out to do a preliminary design; just getting a feel for the company. So it's not even about designers at this point, but about the total picture.

Of the two, the one I like better has more resources in store--back issues of design magazines that can be borrowed, for example, as well as monthly informational "seminars," which we may or may not take advantage of. They have a very clear fee structure; they have staff who are experienced in working with the county and city on permitting. My primary reason for considering a company, instead of a straight out DIY is...sort of like working with a good realtor on selling a house. The realtor costs $$, but has the resources and the contacts (contractors, tile guys, electrical guys, etc) to get things done efficiently and well. So the commission is earned.

I knew I needed a KD. I have no idea what I'm doing. I can research appliances, look at a million pictures of kitchens, lurk on this forum night after night, but pulling it all together? Figuring out a space plan? Over my head. Elsewhere on this forum I mentioned the first KD who listened carefully with his wife/partner to my wish list, including putting a wall up between kitchen and dining room, and my perfectly logical reasons why (including excluding the dogs from the dining room), and proceeded to decide on his own that I should not have a wall there. His first design ignored everything I'd told him and placed the cooktop 10 feet from the only sink, thus making draining a big pot of boiling pasta an upper body workout. So, #1 would be listen to the client and, unless you can explain why they might want to reconsider an idea BEFORE you render the design, do what they've asked for.

I agree with those who express dismay over the black box of the fee structure. Everyone does it differently, and often the design fees are wrapped up with the cabinet prices, and/or the installation. There is no way for the client to determine how much they're paying for the service versus the materials, much like the granite fabricator/supplier black box, and don't get me started on that. We were disappointed because we traveled 1 1/2 hours to our KD and were told yes, after asking specifically whether their GC, who has an excellent reputation, would be willing to work our job. We were well into the process when we discovered he is not licensed in our state and could not pull permits here. Thus we had to scramble to find a local GC. It would have been nice if our KD had really made sure before she told us yes.

Please have relationships with your cabinet suppliers such that you can pretty realistically predict how long after ordering the cabinets will arrive, especially if you have us sign a contract that says it will cost us $200/week for you to store them for us until we're ready for installation.

Be able to design competently in different idioms. Most KDs we spoke to could do a Hamptons/Christopher Peacock clone/"Something's Gotta Give" kitchen in their sleep. Lovely kitchens, but not what we are looking for. We wanted Euro Modern without Bulthaupt prices. Be willing to turn down a job if you are unable or unwilling to work with a client's vision or if the lines you work with are inappropriate.

Have infinite patience while we second-guess every choice we've made. God bless my KD. She must be on tranqs. ;-)

I've been following these threads with a fair amount of detached interest, since I'm in the midst of planning a comprehensive redo of my kitchen. However, I'm concluding that I must be living on a totally different planet. What most posters call a "Kitchen Designer" is known where I live as a "commission salesperson". Professional designers here charge for design work, on an hourly rate as specified in a contract. I have engaged such a CKD to draw up my kitchen plans. I'm paying her to tweak my layout, create drawings my contractor and suppliers can work from, and provide any other design advice I rquire. I don't need her to go shopping for me, but she will if I pay her. She has no vested interest in the final cost of the project, or the inclusion of any particular components. I'm happy with this arrangement and so is she, or the wording of her contract would have been different.

The "designers" who work through particular kitchen showrooms or cabinet suppliers are employed by those entities. While they provide necessary services to customers, there is no pretense about who they are working for. By hiring my own designer, I'm paying for work and advice that I can't provide myself, but still have the flexibility to shop around for the features and materials that suit the final vision she has helped me to achieve.

Firstly, I think if I had more time than money, I could've planned my own kitchen. Secondly, I don't think I would've done as good a job as my CKD.

I'm beginning to think my CKD is unique. I found her on a kitchen walk in our town. She had 2 kitchens in the walk, which was impressive, since I know the process for selection isn't easy.

Unlike what most others are posting, she never told me she even had a cabinet line to offer. The contract was very clear as to what she was going to provide and she seems to have provided more than other kitchen designers here. She not only provided layout and elevation, she also provided demolition plans and electrical plans. She started with 4 plans, whittled it down to two and then down further to the final 1. I paid in full and walked away with the plans, which I have since submitted to our village for plan review. It came back with minimal changes.

Things I like about my CKD:
1) She has great layout sense. She always had solid reasons why xx wouldn't work. For example, putting the dishwasher across from the oven wouldn't work if we ever foresaw wanting both doors open at the same time.
2) She knew alot about finishings. XX brand is no good because of XX. This is a great product, because of XX. When I went to see her in-home studio, I was impressed with the samples she had available. Not things she sold, but things she has put into other's homes.
3) She was always reachable.
4) She was patient with my indecision. Of course, we're not done yet, so we'll see if that holds. ;-)

Skills I wish my CKD were better at:
1) I'm not sure I could've used her kitchen design and still stayed within the budget we gave her. Of course, that could be entirely my fault, since we're doing some expensive remodeling that she didn't know enough about, including moving some walls.
2) The 'interior design' aspect. The kitchens she has designed are beautiful, and I'm sure she get's my vision, but I'm not confident she can make it come to fruition. Again, I think her strongest point is in her layout skills.

I think that's it. Like anything, cream rises to the top.

-Jeana

I used a non-ckd that provided a layout and design for free, cabinet orders pay for her time, and I could not do the layout details Her designs were formulaic and the same ones were put into all her kitchens. She was offended when I did not like an element of the design, that "everyone likes" and when my requests caused 3 or 4 changes to her intial design, she said "some people charge for this you know". I bit my tongue and did not say, some people have gone to school for this you know. Some of my requests were met with "oh you don't want that". I DID want that and usually insisted but resented feeling like I had to fight for what I wanted in my own kitchen. I did a price check at HD and the "kd" there was a middle aged guy who had undergone a career change and did not even know what a pot filler was. But he knew how to use the computer software and lay out the cabinets, that was ALL.

Obviously, ckd's have to live with bad raps caused by anyone doing cabinet layouts and "design" who is not really qualified. Personality has a lot to do with it, and an attitude that the designer knows best and if the client disagrees they must be ignorant or have bad taste, does not sit well with most people here, or probably anywhere. I think that attitude may be even more prevalent in more successful kd's, as success can go to a persons head a little sometimes.

I could not afford to spend 50% more on cabinets to cover the cost of the ckd. But mine was a budget remodel. I also enjoy being involved in the process and design decisions and would never use a designer that just presented me with final drawings and expected me to accept them without a lot of detailed conversations about what I was looking for, what my likes, dislikes and hates were, and how I use my kitchen. The person who did my layout is a single mom of several children and she had no understanding of how differently someone else might the kitchen who did not have the same lifestyle as her.

I would actually have loved to have access to a designer that would bill by the hour and was open and comfortable to helping "a la carte" when I needed it only. Like picking a paint color, questions about mixing finishes, and in the future, helping me decide on a backsplash based on what was already in my kitchen.

Even if I had 100,00.00 or more put into a kitchen, I would never want to use someone who I just said, I want traditional, or french country, or transitional and they presented me with final drawings and I said OK. I think most people on this forum, just by the fact that they are here, want more involvement and control over the design process than many designers allow for.

I think a really good kd needs to assess each clients needs and expectations and customize their design process accordingly. Some clients will have more developed visions than others, and some might only want help with layout and details and suggestions, and others might need much more.

Also, seriously, if someone says I want xyz in my kitchen, like igloochic, why would someone want to spend the time to produce a design using abc and then try to sell them on it instead of designing an xyz space or saying I am not the right person for you because I specialize in abc, it is what I love and what I do best?

Sue

khat-- There was just another thread where some positive input was given for KDs. Unfortunatley, I can't remember the name of it. If I find it, I'll come back and post the link.

First, let me say I highly commend you for your ambition to better yourself as a professional, AND for having the guts to come to the Colleseum as a Christian, so to speak!! That takes guts from someone who doesn't know people in here.

Secondly, let me tell you where I'M coming from. I don't know how MUCH you've lurked, but I'm a high end ceramic and stone tile contractor. I come in here to give people advice, usually on the technical aspects of installing tile in their homes.

Now, the biggest (and really ONLY) criticism I've ever had with KD's is when they come up with concepts and demand that the homeowner utilize them or the KD's headed down the road. Sorry, but only one prima donna allowed on the job, and that's ME!! :-) Seriously. The way I see it, it's the KD's job to let the client know WHAT'S POSSIBLE, not that there's only two ways to go-- the KD's way and the wrong way. Designers can sometimes be a touchy group, and I include myself in this to a small extent, because I've had times, as well, where I've made suggestions that I thought would be terrific, but just weren't the direction in which the homeowner wanted to go. You can't take it personally, but rather adapt YOURself to what the owner wants, instead of the other way around. Do that, and you'll be a top notch KD in high demand.

With respect to this question:

What qualities, experience and attributes would make you want to work with someone? If you're convinced that we're not neccesary is there anything that would change your mind?

For ANY kind of high end kitchen, unless the homeowner does a WHOLE lot of research, spending literally weeks or even months in a place like this, I would say a GOOD KD is indispensable. Sometimes even for a decent "middle of the road" kitchen, because not too many people are up on what brands are available, and even in midrange kitchens, there are many choices one can make to dress up their kitchen and make it theirs without spending a huge bundle, and for things like this, a KD is most certainly necessary, unless, again, the homeowner does their homework.

Believe me when I tell you-- you came to the right place to ask the questions you did. it's a good group over here, and as you can see already, they'll be more than willing to help you. In addition, there are several designers who come in here, including one from California who along with her daughter, has won many awards for her designs.

Good luck, and welcome to the forum!! :-)

Here's the thread I spoke of. There are two KD's who speak up in this thread. You'll get some great advice from either one of them:

Here is a link that might be useful: What Exactly is the Role of a KD?

This isn't intended to bash the professions, but I don't need a KD, I don't need an interior designer, and I didn't need an architect, either.

I know what I like, I know what works for me, my setting, my lifestyle. No one knows more about my likes, hates, wants and needs than I do. Putting an extra person between me and those who will actually be executing the plans wouldn't have been helpful.

But for those who have a sense of what they want but no clear idea how to get from 'here to there', the professionals can be very helpful.

If I were hiring a KD, I'd look for one that spent more time listening than talking. I'd want someone who was interesting in helping me create 'my' kind of space, not someone pushing the latest trends. I'd expect the drawings to wow me, because the leap from verbal to visual is what design ought to be all about.

I'd tell them what I dislike-- faux filthy, all things fussy and frilly, white cabs, white subways, potfillers-- and the minute any of those appeared, the relationship would be over. Ditto, if they ever forget who is living in the house and signing the checks.

What qualities, experience and attributes would make you want to work with someone?

I am someone who, in the end, did not need a KD to get the kitchen I wanted. That said, I would have happily used one had I been able to find one worth a damn. I did use an interior designer to help me with a variety of decisions, mostly about color and coordinating the remodel with my old, quirky, and distinctive house. My older home (1942) has a lot of character, and I wanted to be sure that my changes would all be in keeping with that character. If I were to ever do this again, I might still consider using a KD, but there are several important characteristics I would want.

First, I want someone who listens to me. I want someone who can get a good sense of my style from spending time in my house. I want someone who is more interested in meeting my needs than selling me on his or her ideas or, worse, on his or her products.

I want a KD who actually cooks. Even better would be one who cooks like me. I love to have marathon cooking sessions and cook large quantities at a time, with lots of prep and big pots and utensils that require a lot of space to spread out. On the other hand, I don't bake other than the occasional batch of cookies and I really don't care how "fabulous" a baking center would be. Although I am very aesthetically inclined, functionality is even more important to me, so I need someone who understands how I function.

Perhaps most importantly, I want someone who respects my budget. After my most recent experiences with a KD, I will forever be immediately and irrevocably turned off by any designer who ignores what I clearly state are my budget limits. The "cabinet salesperson" issue presents a problem with this particular characteristic. Let me give you an example of what can really, really, really turn off a client.

The KD who turned me off of KDs altogether was, first and foremost, a cabinet salesperson. He did not represent himself that way, or I would have caught on much sooner to his tactics. We had a pretty strict budget that I was clear about from the beginning. His goal was to see how much over that budget he could talk me into going by selling me on expensive cabinet features. I had a very detailed layout for him to start from, so what he did was see how many of his expensive little features he could cram in there. I wanted one wall of pantry cabinets with a desk on the end, and he included this in the design. After he priced out the tweaked plan and it came out to twice my budgeted amount, we both went to work trying to make it more affordable. I asked about some fancy decorative filler details that I had not requested and which really did not even fit with the simple shaker style I had wanted. His response is what, eventually, made me decide against using his services. He said, "Oh, removing those will help a lot! Not only do we cut the cost of those filler pieces, but to include those, I had to make the pantry cabinets custom sized. If we take them out, I can make the cabinets standard sized. That will be a lot cheaper." This change turned out to make a difference of several thousand dollars. Hello?!?! You know I'm on a strict budget and have a clearly defined style, but you include a completely unnecessary design feature that runs up the cost substantially and doesn't even fit the style?! That act right there demonstrated to me his total disregard for my wishes and his total disrespect for my budget limitations. In retrospect, it also demonstrated his greed. He knew exactly what he was doing when he added those fillers, but he thought he could get away with it. He probably had many times before.

I ended up taking my design to a custom cabinet maker. He entered my ideas into his software and came up with drawings in a few minutes, proving to me that this aspect of the process is not as difficult or time consuming as the previous KD would have me believe. Perhaps not being constrained by the limitations of a cabinet line made it simpler, but the actual fiddling with the design on the computer was a piece of cake. The cabinet maker made my perfect kitchen for less than half the cost of that KD, and even at twice the cost, the KD's design was never as good as my own. Some of my favorite features were things he could not or would not do.

Hi, Khat. This has been fun to read. As said, first an earnest attempt to help the client achieve his or her dream.

Second, though, I'd like to underline artistic talent. I "couldn't afford" a KD, but I would have put that at the top of my budget priorities anyway if someone had ID'd a genuinely good designer who'd bill by the hour in my local area. I admit my research stopped with asking around a bit; I just assumed a fine designer would have stratospheric fees in today's market. But--talent for the work to make up for my lack of it, the element I didn't purchase with all the rest. With a little pencil chewing, I figured out where I wanted the stove fine on my own.

I stopped by to inquire at a local design firm and when I said "I have a 1952 kitchen with 5 doorways" and the person responded "oh, I hate those kitchens!" I turned and walked out. So my advice, watch your mouth as not only may you lose a potential customer, but you don't know who may overhear your remark.

As many have already stated, listening to the client is paramount. Not everyone WANTS the latest and greatest trend! When people do a kitchen remodel it is a long term very expensive investment. Many of us continue to utilize this site and others for feedback on what works and what doesn't in spite of what all the multitude of kitchen mags are promoting. Just because the industry is pushing side by side or counter depth refrigs, and their high cost, it doesn't mean everyone should have one. Ironically a 60+ slide show of kitchens did show about 1/3 still had top freezer refrigs - and some looked very out of place against the obviously expensive fancy cabinets, but not all.

I think CKD/KD are too narrow focused on 'family/entertainer' centered kitchens and large footage. They are forgetting about the single homeowner, does little cooking, does not entertain, has an old kitchen and not the newer wall runs, but wants a functional esthetic pleasing space and that does not conflict with the style of the adjoining rooms. We have the income but also the frugality to not want to dump all our savings into a photo-op kitchen that doesn't meet our simple needs or conflicts with how we utilize and style our adjoining rooms. The kitchen is NOT a separate building!

I hired a design/build firm and I couldn't be happier. They have two certified kitchen and bath remodelers at the firm. During the initial stages, they came out to our house many times, took measurements, offered suggestions and wrote down everything I said I wanted in my kitchen. I believe where this firm stands out is that they offered a clear way forward. They told us detailed plans would cost $450 but we would own the plans and could do whatever we wanted with them. So we paid for the plans to see what they could come up with. We figured if we didn't love them we could move on. Well, they came up with the best use of our space. They incorporated absolutely everything I said I wanted in my kitchen. We had several meetings where we tweaked the plans for functionality or for budget constraints. They were responsive every step of the way. Once the plans were approved, they presented us with a contract specifying the start date, the payment schedule and the scope of work. So far, they have done everything they said they would. They have always been available to answer questions or calm me down when I thought something had gone tragically wrong. They have given us gift cards to local restaurants so we could enjoy a nice meal while our kitchen was torn apart. Believe me, for the cost of this remodel, the gift cards are a drop in the bucket, but I really appreciated the thoughtfulness and the gesture. They have gone shopping with me to pick finishes or they let me pick what I want on my own. If I pick something that won't work, they let me know and suggest alternatives in its place. I believe I am very fortunate to have had such a great experience. I realize that's not always the case.

>>If you're convinced that we're not neccesary is there anything that would change your mind?

That's kind of a tough question, since it's a bit like asking what you'd do with a third arm. ;-) For many of the folks who frequent this type of forum, the thought of letting someone else design one's vision is not very appealing. That's most of the fun!

I've never used a KD of any kind, and from what I can glean from blogs and articles is that they serve two main functions: on the lower end, selling cabinets; on the higher end, functioning as interior designers. Both of these are perfectly reputable tasks, but I've not needed either.

A third function, the ability to tell me what cabinets technically fit where, has been very capably filled by my excellent trim carpenter.

In my early design stages, I perhaps could have used someone skilled with the design software, but not sure I would have paid a premium to have someone else try to understand my ideas rather than simply learn how to do it myself.

I have an aversion to the 'hidden commission' model of doing business with someone, so I'm very glad I didn't go this route when buying cabinets. A designer is a designer; a cabinet salesperson is a salesperson, and these 2 different roles really don't seem to jibe very well for the consumer/client in this field. In addition to the points mentioned by posters above, I would encourage all KDs who insist on selling cabinets to present extremely transparent fee structures to counteract this and save a lot of grief for everyone.

Hope this input is of some help, and best of luck to you!

What qualities, experience and attributes would make you want to work with someone? Competency, good listening skills, and honest open communication is my answer.

The KD should be competent and share his/her credentials with the client. The KD should listen to the clients needs/wants and advise the client regarding what is feasible within the client's budget.
Finally, and perhaps most important, the KD needs to disclose his/her fee and comission (up front). Expectations on either party should be discussed so that there are "no surprises" or disappointment.

That's my two cents!

That's kind of a tough question, since it's a bit like asking what you'd do with a third arm.

That's easy! Spread thinset with one hand, and set tile with the other two!!

There's always one in every crowd! :-)

Hi! This is a great site with lots of knowledgeable, kitchen-obsessed people. In my few brief months here, it has also been a forum where people are respectful and helpful as rule and ugliness a very rare exception, so you came to a good place to get informtion.

My personal experience is that I have a difficult kitchen and I have been thinking for over 4 years about how I could redo it to get my 2 goals met (a bigger eating area and a sit-at island). There is a local kitchen design place that a lot of my neighbors use, and my neighborhood tends to have high end kitchens. I took my layout in there and asked her to go over it and see if she could help me fit them in.

I told her from the beginning that my kitchen is ugly but it works for me and I'm not redoing it unless I can get those two things. She came off as surface-nice, but most of what she said was condescending. She told me "it can't be done, but we can make it beautiful!".

Then I heard about this design-for-fee woman and paid her a huge (IMO) retainer to work on the kitchen. She took measurements, said, yep, I have some ideas, went off, and came back with a way to make it work. I am SO GLAD I paid her that $2000 only because the architect, this first KD, and I had all tried and failed to find the breakthrough that this woman found.

Later as I was beginning to work on the cabs, counters, etc, i went back into this same KD shop (it is near my house, I'm not really a glutton for punishment) and saw her. I said, remember me, I was trying to fit in blah blah blah in x amount of space? I finally found a way! (said with excitement and enthusiasm!) and she looked right at me and said, snottily "can't be done" and walked AWAY.

I know someone who works at the shop and told her about this and she said, yeah, it isn't uncommon. She intimidates and condescends to people to get them to pay more and do more extras. She tells them "you'll really regret not going that extra mile and getting that SZ otherwise you're going to cheapen your kitchen". Worse, according to my friend, she takes all the lucrative clients for herself and the other KD's get the trickle down - smaller, cheaper jobs - even if they sourced the original client or had the first contact. So as you can imagine, those KDs hate working for her.

So two things:

1) treat people with respect
2) try hard to give them what they want or respectfully tell them why you think they should consider other options

One last thing - as I general rule I don't like to work with people if they get paid more because you spend more. Stock brokers, real estate agents and commission-based KDs all have an incentive to keep me spending more. I like my fixed fee financial planner - he gets paid more if i MAKE more money, not if I trade more. We're working together.

Aniya

GREAT question! and the answer is so simple to me that it seems almost ridiculous. yet, i have never found a kitchen designer with any of these traits. maybe i'm looking in the wrong places, but this seems to be all that is available to me in our affluent suburb 50 miles outside of NYC. obviously, better should be available, but it's not:

one who is actually a "designer"; meaning they have an education with a degree in interior design. they understand proportion, depth of field, scale; they understand color.
they don't "just" do kitchens but are able to do other rooms as well but have chosen kitchens as a specialty. sort of like a surgeon might choose the heart as his/her area of expertise. like an artist, they possess a sense of style and are able to select with a discriminating eye.
they are knowledgeable in appliance offerings and are able to make informed recommendations to clients. anyone can go to a store and pick out the latest high fashion, highly advertised range on the market. the designer should have a thorough understanding of how the homeowner (or main user) will use the space. a builder friend of mine just competed an upscale spec house he is marketing at $2.75 million. he showed me the kitchen proudly. and then realizing i wasn't over-the-moon asked what i would do differently. a house like this will be used for entertaining and large gatherings. there was only one dishwasher and a single trash pullout under the sink. there were two bottom freezer refrigerators with attractive hardware pulls mounted in the center panel of the doors which made it nearly impossible to open the doors. that was merely silly but infuriating to me how this kitchen "designer" paid to mind to the simple task of being able to open a door.

next and most important on my list: the designer should cook. a LOT. really cook. not just boil things. in his or her free time the designer watches food network or pours over new recipes to try. the designer is a designer of kitchens because he or she demands a well functioning room that not only satisfies their need for sustenance but also to satiate their passion.

I've been a Kitchen designer for a mojor home improvment store for a couple of years now....some ideas...

1. They should ask questions, like how do you cook? for large crowds? do you need storage space. I always have a
face to face with the customer to ask pertinenet questions and have an idea of the vibe they want to go with in the design.

2. Don't be afraid to ask about references, I keep a book with before and after pictures for almost all of my kitchens. I've done everything from remodel with stock to over $100,000 for just cabinets.

3. Know what kind of appliances you are leaning toward. do you need the dishwasher to the left or right of the sink, depends on if your left or right handed! Do you need enough space for a 48 inch refrigertor or a hood for a cooktop that needs to pull a higher CFM?

4. Bring pictures!!! start a folder with stuff you see that you like, take pic's of friends kitchens.

5. Budget.....good cabinets are expensive and there's no way around that....but a good designer can do the kitchen in a couple of different styles and give you a very wide price range.

6. don't be afraid to tell them if you don't like something. that's as important as knowing what you do like!!

7. Keep in mind that your countertops and floors should
complement the style and color of the cabinets. also
don't forget the little stuff (undercabinet lights, prepsinks and such)

having said that you can never go wrong with just sitting down with the designer in Lowe's/Home Depot. the cost is nothing (unless you get a detail done. that's where they go measure and will probably do the cabinet installation)
They have a really good program that can show 3d pics of the kitchen with countertops, walls and appliances in place.

Sorry this is so long but hope it helps!!!

I didn't read all the way through, so my apologies if this is redundant. My kitchen has been designed by my family, friends, KD, GC, and the wonderful people here. I honestly can not give credit to one person.

My specific KD was particularly valuable to me (he worked at a kitchen showroom) because:

1. He listened to what I wanted.

2. He respectfully made suggestions.

3. When I said "let's try this...", he did.

4. I was honest about my budget. He respectfully let me know when something wasn't reasonable. He didn't pressure me into glazing, and he helped my cut several thousand off the price (more than 20%) by changing a door style.

5. He came out quickly to do a measurement, when other KDs did not. He immediately showed that he was interested in having me as a client.

In part, I picked him because of the respect; in part, we met at the right time and place.

I'm not saying there weren't hitches and small problems. The relationship worked, however, because he listened to me, did not treat me like a paycheck, and injected his experience and advice in an appropriate manner. I suspect it worked because we treated each other like human beings who wanted to be able to greet each other on the street one day rather than like commodities to be used and discarded.

Btw, I wasn't looking for an interior designer. I'm sure those criteria would have been a bit different. I just don't want to disrespect him by calling him only a cabinet guy. Honestly, I don't remember which certifications he did and didn't have.

I met one time with what I would call a "real" KD. For this initial meeting, she suggested that we meet at my house (this is a remodel). What a difference from the other KDs who never leave the showroom except to measure--and at that point the design is well on its way.

The "real" KD (who I loved but who I couldn't afford--and we both recognized that right away, which I also appreciated) came up with several great design ideas right away in that first meeting. And--most important--she took my house into consideration. For example, all salesperson/KDs I talked to advised strongly against painted cabinets, saying that maintenance is more of an issue. The "real" KD said that she agreed with them for the reasons they mentioned BUT acknowledged that my house called for painted cabinets nonetheless. She looked at the period of the house, the existing trim, the scale of adjoining spaces, direction of natural light, all sorts of things. The saleswoman/KD that I wound up working with instead (because she represented a cabinet line more in keeping with my budget) never took any of this into consideration. How can anyone design a space without considering how it fits into its context??

Hi Khat, thanks for asking your important questions. I wish you the best of luck as a professional Kitchen Designer.

So far we've been working solely with the architect of our whole-house remodel and haven't hired a separate kitchen designer. We consulted with a designer a few times at the beginning of the project when we were looking for ideas and paid her on an hourly basis. She was great for us because she provided the sympathetic interactions we were missing from our very loveable and experienced but sometimes monosyllabic architect.

Besides all the things mentioned in earlier posts (listening skills, aesthetic sense, sincerity, etc.) I would like to say that for me one of the most important things is that a designer can explain the rationale behind her recommendations in detail. Superficial comments that seem intent on killing any conversational give and take like "Trust me, you'll love it" or "no one goes for stainless steel anymore" are a complete turn off to me. What I want is someone willing to explain, to offer some analysis, to educate: "I know green seems like a bold color choice for tile backsplash, but in a kitchen full of red-toned wood it will work as a neutralizing element and provide a color balance that will have a calming, sophisticated effect. And I'm not thinking of solid green, I'm thinking of this sort of muted, mottled green mixed with tans characterisitc of the arts and crafts style in which your house was built. Even though it's green, it's a warm, soft green. Does that idea seem appealing at all? I know you said you liked plain white subway tile but my fear is that the contrast with the dark cabinets would be too striking. Here are several photos showing dark cabinets with the arts&crafts green tile and here are some with white subway tile..."

Also I heartily agree with other posters who emphasized patience with customers second guessing themselves and being indecisive as a paramount quality in a designer. But the two things are related. If a KD is articulate, open, and convincing about the psychological, financial, and functional pros and cons of all the choices, the customers will be much less likely to want to keep revisiting them and changing their mind.

So, bottom line, I would say a design professional should be not only good at listening, but good at TALKING!

It's probably been said already, but I'm working with a KD who I like, not love.

What I like:

She came up with a much better kitchen design than we had, or than I would've had the patience to create. Every time I see a rule of thumb about where x should be relative to y, I check the plan and she's followed it.

She suggests things, and backs off if/when she can tell we don't like the idea.

She's helped me convince dh that certain options made sense. He never would've listened to me alone.

With her help we narrowed our choice of granite and backsplash tile quickly and painlessly. We could've done it with just the salespeople at the stores, but it was easier with her and I'm more confident of a good result.

She's been good about sticking to our budget, discouraging dh from super-expensive granite, for example.

What I'm not wild about:

I don't know exactly where her payment comes from. We did order cabinets from her, and there was an option to pay cash instead, but... She's taken me shopping at an appliance store, a granite place and a tile store where she works regularly with the staff. I've gone along with it because they're all reputable places (I checked) and going with her makes everything easier. Still, I'm sure she's getting *something* out if it but I don't know what, and not knowing makes me uneasy. I'd be happier if I knew what she got out of it (maybe it's just freebies for her house when she needs something) so I'd feel more empowered.

She didn't quiz me much about how I cook and her cabinet-insides advice was hampered by that.

khat
Great question! The fact that you asked it and are concerned as a designer is possibly the most important trait a designer should have: listening and learning from your clients!

kateskouros

Absolutely agree with you as far as education goes, however I've worked with KDs and interior designers with no formal education, they're great at what they do, they are just naturally gifted, (as I'm sure some of the posters here).
I think if you love your job it shows no matter what your education.

I do have a degree in design and sometimes a more complicated job will be thrown my way by another designer because they think maybe I'm better able to handle it.
I will also turn over jobs if I think someone else is a better "fit" with the client.
That's the sign of a good salesperson also, someone who understands it's not all about ego but wil turn a job over if someone else is better able to handle it, or if there's a personality clash with the client.
I've designed kitchens that were over 100,000 and those that were well under 20,000.
Sometimes the clients with the limited budget are the most grateful because you've taken the time, provided a great design and still come under budget. They are usually the ones that give you the best referrals.
I'd never turn my nose up at anyone and actually enjoy the low budget challenges, separates the good designers from the ones that are doing it strictly for the money.
Everyone deserves a "dream kitchen"
By the way, my favorite shows are food channel and HGTV
Another consideration: The best designers continually educate themselves, that's why I like to come on this forum just to see what people are talking about.

Mmme, I completely forgot that my KD thought about light and proportions (we knocked down walls, opening the space up! He also was good about making "dead" space workable. Interesting that you said the measurement came so far into your design process. We did measurement before design and used the opportunity to talk about how I cook and where we each thought things should go.

I had 3 experiences with designers of which 2 were very satisfactory. In our remodel, we started with a difficult space, smaller kitchen next to an unfunctional dining room with too many doors going outside. I was stuck on 1 concept of what might be.

I'd been going to parades of new and remodeled homes for years and knew of people who had work I admired. I'd also been reading magazines and books for about 10 years. Still, I was stuck on how to get the most out of relatively small space.

The best money spent was on a home designer (originally thought she was an architect). She came up with 3 totally different rough concept ideas. We ended up piecing parts of 2 of these concepts for the layout which is serving us very well. She recommended using kd to fine tune the space.

The kd's I checked out came with references of people I respected. All were up front with how they worked and billed. We decided to use the person from the building supply company that our contracter uses because of cabinets they sold. The young kd had a degree in interior design and it showed. She had lots of good ideas, made suggestions in a polite way, and was willing to do 3-4 versions of layout. She provided wonderful print outs of how the different options would work. I am very happy with the results and feel she more than earned any commission.

I felt I also needed help with interior design and thought I was being equally thorough in finding that kind of help. I wanted someone to work by the hour. I contacted the owner and somehow she got her employee involved and before I knew it I was paying by the hour for 2 people. They were pushy and condescending to staff in local stores (including my favorite, young kd who probably had more credentials than them). She was continually pushing purchase of items from her business or places that would give them a commission based on referall. Husband really disliked them. So, ended this relationship early. While their advice was good, the approach to work left a lot to be desired.

I wouldn't hire one on a fee-basis. Where I live, the vast majority of kitchen places have in-house designers whose services are free if you end up buying from the store.

If money were no object, maybe I'd do it, but no matter how wealthy I was, I'm a frugal individual.

The place I ended up using had a great designer, who was one of the owners of the custom cabinentry shop. She has 25 years of experience and does beautiful work. She had some good ideas and she listened to what I wanted. She understood that we are frugal and didn't push stuff I didn't want or need.

In addition to the suggestions of being a good listener and staying within budget, kateskouros pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Someone with a solid background and formal training/education in design and architecture is a must if you're shelling out the big bucks for a KD. Having a working knowledge (better yet, an expertise) in cooking is also essential.

A dear friend happens to have all those qualities and it took me a while to appreciate their existence and value. He designed our bathroom and has given us guidance with our kitchen. We live outside of Philadelphia and this guy travels from Manhattan to south NJ for his jobs. He does entire homes, kitchens and restaurants.

If kateskouros, or anyone else, is interested in contacting him, LMK.

I can tell you what happened to us with 3 KD's.
First known high end place. I went in with my drawing of what I wanted. I pointed to cabs I liked, stated granite etc and wanted to know if they could give me a ballpark figure. No, they wanted $2000 up front. I said you mean you can't give any ballpark estimate so I will know if I could even afford you? I wan't willing to risk $2000 to find out we couldn't afford them so we walked.
2ond, I had my same drawing, wanting a corner refrig. She said she did her drawing of mine, didn't like it and threw it away. Showed me something entirely different. She knew I wanted to keep the basic plan I had because it functioned so well.
3rd, Again my drawing she put it on her computer, at one corner I had an angled cab LS up&low flanked on both sides upper with a long cab & a drawer under. She kept insisting I had to have glass front cabs on this corner it was to much wood. I didn't want glass, she actually said to my DH, help me, she must have glass. He said it is her kit if she doesn't want glass she doesn't have to have it.
Now I am very willing to listed to structurally this or that can't be done. Also willing to listen to XYZ might work better or let me show you some new items but basically my requests were being ignored.
In the end I did two kitchens in 5 yrs and I designed them both myself.

Khat, thank you for coming here and asking this question.

I haven't read all the posts but I think my experience is similar to some of the above. To me the hardest part is combining and balancing both look and function of the kitchen. It is easier to find a KD who is good at creating "the look" than one who can achieve both. Mostly I feel I am on my own with the functional aspect. I've been told so many times things like "any appliance can go anywhere, it really doesn't matter as long as they are in the work area" or "why do you see a problem with a few extra steps?", etc etc. I am starting to think that many KD are used to designing for people who don't really use their kitchen for any real cooking or have someone else cook for them, so as long as it looks great they are happy.

Perhaps this is why I am still here posting my plans and asking questions.

annab

We went with a very established designer (not just for kitchens) that is well known in our city. Hubby suggested contacting her but I shyed away at first thinking it would be too expensive. I haven't priced other designers, but the price was completely reasonable and now seeing the value-add I am confirmed even more that she was needed.

I (and to some extent, my husband) am very decisive, know what I like and don't like, and have an overall defined sense of style. The value that our designer (and her assistant designer) have brought is through helping us to define and realize our vision. When she came up with the plan of moving our island, and things I never would have done (open shelving, glass upper cab stacked on top of granite), I was blown away. What I love about our designer is that she doesn't steer us into some weird vision that we don't want, but instead helps us to build upon our vision. I guess it helps that the designs that we've seen of hers are similar to what we like - so it was a good match between designer and client.

She's suggested things that we never would have considered such as a glass backsplash. Most of all, she is very collaborative and builds off our input. Both designers are experienced, professional, kind and have a great sense of style. They tell us what they've experienced with other clients, give us contacts for custom things that we want (ex. concrete fireplace), and help us to make the decisions that we are torn about. We're hiring them to help with space planning and design for the rest of our home.

It seems to me that the key thing a KD must do is listen. It's really basic, but clearly, some KDs forget to do that.

Our first KD wasn't very good at listening. And I found many math errors in her plan for our kitchen. Those two things became a big red flag for me and so we ended up not using her. At that point, we had only met with her in person for a total of 2 hours and I have no idea how much time she had spent at that point on cabinet designing.

The KD I am currently using is much better at listening. I did have some ideas that were different than hers, but I have found that she does not push her ideas once I've said no. She came up with a fabulous plan for my kitchen, but it involved moving a window. I decided against that because I very much want to do this kitchen within a budget (read: no loans). I regretfully said no to that plan and she did not push. The final plan she came up with is one that I very happy with, but I do think that her first plan was better. But with 4 kids to put in college, finances have to be considered. I appreiciated that she didn't push us to upgrade.

cate1337,
The measurement came late in the design process because I had the architect's blueprints. The KD was able to work from those measurements until it came time to do her own final measurement before ordering.

But from all of the KDs I met with at showrooms when I was shopping cabinet lines, I did not get the impression that any considered a home visit a necessary part of the design process. Every one mentioned that they would come out to measure before placing an order, but that was it. Also, my KD offered no suggestions about anything except the cabinets themselves--nothing about color, lighting, tile, additional features that I might consider, appliances, etc. And I got the impression that most of the KDs I spoke with at showrooms offered this same level of service. Worked for me, because I had already established that I could not afford a "real" KD, but it did make me raise my eyebrows when they began talking about design fees and proprietary stuff.

So I guess my bottom line answer to the original question is: I would want a kitchen designer to be able to design the kitchen, not just the cabinets.

craig00 - could you please email me with the name and phone number of your designer and any other details you think I should know. Thanks!

malhgold at optonline dot net

bump

I'm not sure that this will be a constructive answer to your question because I'm going to tell of my experience as opposed to what I'd expect in the future.

The first KD who had any input on my kitchen was a friend/acquaintance who had worked as a KD for HD and was getting ready to venture out on her own as an interior decorator. She gave me great advice regarding what order to do things in, but her ideas on how my kitchen should be designed were way out in left field. (She wanted me to tear down the fireplace in my den in order to make room for bar stools facing into the kitchen!)

She made me realize that I could and should do the design myself rather than hand it over to someone who might or might not have a grasp on what would work best for me. The next several KDs I came into contact with were mainly cabinet sales people who either had no suggestions on how to improve my design, had suggestions that were based on their idea of what would look better (symmetry was big!), or a couple who did make some suggestions for minor improvements which I incorporated into my design.

The last KD who actually got my order (based on her cabinet line, price and relationship with my GC) turned out to be the best of the bunch. She was very experienced and worked with me to make some important changes which had to be made once she measured my space (I hadn't done that great of a job measuring and the few inches difference meant some real changes in the design). She also worked with her very experienced and meticulous installer to solve some problems midway through the installation, including a request that I made after installation was already in progress. That was for a light switch in an unplanned spot which KD suggested I should have and, realizing she was spot on, asked if it could be done.

I really lucked out on getting to work with her, and knowing now how good she is, I would go to her with a blank page if I were doing another remodel. But how would I have known that in advance? I don't know if I could have!

The KDs who were stuck on superficial things like symmetry, basically put form in front of function. Maybe that's what the majority of their customers want and for that purpose they were probably doing a great job. I know that I'm not they typical customer because I did a ton of research (Yay internet & gardenweb!), I knew pretty much what I wanted, and I was specific on most of the details.

I will say this. Neither my KD nor my GC knew about everything I wanted, so much of it was stuff I'd learned about here. But both of them were completely open to my requests and ideas. Neither said, oh you won't like that, or I've never seen that done before so it probably won't work or anything like that. Believe me, I heard all that from other KDs & GCs so the fact that they were willing to do what I wanted, to learn about some new gadget, to work with me to make the kitchen I dreamed about, that went a very long way toward a great working relationship.

I did use 2 KDs for my remodel and was very happy I did. I agree with previous posts that it is key that KD listens and understands what kind of cooking and other activities will be going on in kitchen and respects the client's budget. I had less remodel/design experience than many in this forum, so I was looking for two more key things:

1. I wanted someone who could think outside of the box and come up with creative solutions for my space.
2. I needed someone with good "design sense" who would keep me from making a host of common errors which seem like a good idea at the time, but which you end up hating later when it's to late or too expensive to do anything about it.

I first hired a KD with a reputation for creativity whom I paid a set fee ($875) which would go towards my cabinets if I purchased them from him. He came to my home and had a series of meetings with me and drew everything up on a 3d computer program which was very helpful. I was thrilled with his concept, but had two issues with him:
1. He knew from the start what my budget was and kept trying to seduce me into going way over it.
2. He didn't seem as good on smaller details. Among other things, he kept miss-measuring things like walls and window frames... After the fourth time, he stopped even arguing with me and would just take my measurement if we had a disagreement.

I did feel he earned his design fee and consider the money well spent, I ended up not buying cabinets from him (not even close to my budget), but instead switching to a KD in a Box Store (United Building Centers) whom my contractor recommended. The new KD was great on the little details and really was able to help execute the "concept". I'm glad I went with him because I needed the extra guidance and refinements he was able to provide and because he was great about resolving any issues I had with a few scratches and off color cabinets.

It's really been enlightening to read all of your responses. I was relieved to find out that many of you were happy with your kitchen designers. In a way I feel like I'm in a bubble not realizing how many homeowners have had such unfortunate experiences. My clients come to me totally by referral so I have to make them happy to continue working in this field that I love. Like I said, it has been very eye-opening. I do have another question for those of you who paid your kitchen designer directly - not through a commission. How much was the fee and if it was a flat fee about how much per hour did it work out to? Those of you who worked with commission-based designers what would percentage do you imagine that commision was? What would have seemed fair based on your project and your overall satisfaction? I hope I'm not breeching any etiquette rules here, but I am curious.