I wouldn't want to walk *through* my pantry. Even if there are doors here, you'd be walking through a hallway of them to get to your kitchen.

I prefer a back kitchen to a middle kitchen, which is what you have here. There aren't going to be any windows, which simplifies upper cabinet placement, but doesn't allow for any natural light in the kitchen, other than what trickles in from th back windows.

However, if you move the kitchen to the back, then you have a long walk in with your groceries.

L with island kitchens usually function well. The most important consideration for kitchen location in a house beyond site specific concerns like sunlight, is the flow in of groceries and the flow out of food. On both sides you have the kitchen open to the dining area so the flow out is fine. Additionally, if the arcade is the back of the house, it doesn't look like a difficulty to take raw food out for grilling.

On the flow in, the garage entrances are a little twisty turny, but the actual distances to the kitchens looks fine. I actually like the walk through pantry on the right of page side for the putting away of groceries element. You might want to offset the door or something, however, so that the pantry door isn't the first image one sees leaving the chapel. Or maybe consider a sliding, barn style door for it (which would work well in that hallway), covered with art consistent with the feeling you want to be seeing from the chapel.

PLLLOG: Thanks for your comments. Maybe I should leave well enough alone!

Maybe. But also listen to yourself. For instance, are skylights an option? Or solatubes?

Is there a view to be had in the arcade and beyond? Do you want to be looking past the kitchen to see it?

With the arcade I'm thinking outdoor living is a given. Is this a place you'd like to have one of those retracting back walls so that you can have indoor/outdoor flow? Or do you prefer the solid wall? What about having more windows in that wall? That is, is there a structural reason why the kitchen couldn't be there?

Also, will you have an "outdoor kitchen"? At least a grill and sink? Or were you thinking you wanted the indoor kitchen handy to the outside? Would it be easier to put in a small outdoor fridge for drinks for the kids than move the kitchens?

Building this kind of house with so many people and so many considerations is difficult. I haven't read through your whole other thread, just the floorplans. I think the architect actually did a good job on the design (or you explaained what you wanted well and were heard), which is too often not the case.

For me, personally, as important as kitchens are to me, I think they're much nicer where they are than taking up the prime space by the arcade and dormers are. And, with the dorners, won't a lot of light find its way into the kitchen anyway?

Is there a lifestyle reason, in the way you imagine you'll be living, why you were thinking of having the kitchens on that wall?

Or are you just overthinking?

PLLLOG: Thanks for the comments and encouragement. The basic problem is 'option overload,' and the reality that custom really means no-limits (or few). I think we have expressed ourselves well to the architect and he has listened. We have actually all, even before construction, become accustomed to the house and are pretty fond of it! When I suggested the possibility of some changes, such as kitchen placement, the family acted like someone took their beloved teddy-bear!

In your comments you mention a retractable wall -- I am not sure what you mean by this. Do you have any examples that you can point to?

Finally, I do think keeping the arcade open from the living room is what we want -- where more people can share in that view and enjoy it.

I like the placement of the kitchen in the bigger unit. I think it makes sense to reserve the windows along the arcade for dining and living rooms.

Also, I do like the idea of bringing groceries from the garage and setting them down on a counter in the pantry. From there, it is easier to move anything that needs to go in the fridge or kitchen cabinets in a second step.

What I am having a hard time visualizing is the ceiling volume in the kitchen. I would be concerned about cooking smells lingering in the great big ceiling of the common living/dining area.

We have this problem in our house, even though our kitchen and family room have lower ceilings. They are open to the living room, which is two stories tall, and before our remodel all the cooking smells seemed to circulate throughout the house in undesirable ways. (I am hoping we have solved this problem with the new and powerful vent hood, but it's too early to say definitively!)

I know that you are not down to the level of detail of considering the layout within the kitchen, but once you choose an architect, the ceiling issues will need to be specified fairly quickly. A general consensus in this forum is that it is much easier to install a vent hood over the main stovetop if it is along a wall. Island cooktops are a safety issue as well, even if you are able to engineer a good vent hood over the island.

In terms of the location of the kitchen within the larger house, I think you have settled on something that works well within the set of other desires for your space.

Welcome to the kitchen forum, by the way!

I was looking at the 3D plan in this thread rather than the floor plan when I mentioned the retractable wall. It doesn't work with the fireplace. Just to answer your question, however, there are two kinds of retractable walls. I've put some URL's below. It's hard finding good pictures online. There are a couple of versions. The neatest is multi-slide panels. You have a track that's a few inches wide. The panels slide along that track and retract into a wall. This does require correct engineering, but it's fantastic when it's in.

The other kind, uses pivots, and the panels just slide into a stack by the far wall. These are usually used for retrofits where there isn't a good wall to put a pocket into.

I don't know about the thermal implications of these, however. I've just skimmed your other thread looking for a location, which I missed if you said. I don't know if that much glass is good for extreme climates. It's used in some snowy places, but I don't know what all is involved. It helps that it's protected by the arcade, but I'd think the fireplace is more important.

BTW, are you putting an outdoor fireplace in the arcade? Just thinking you could use the same chimney structure and it would be cozy. (Same structure, different actual chimney.)

Just in reaction to all the grief you've gotten in your design thread, btw, I'd just like to add that I think one of the benefits of the current layout is that it looks well designed to turn into a large single family home in the distant future with minimal remodeling, so I don't know why you wouldn't be able to find a buyer at such a time. Meantime, it looks like a house that you all can enjoy.

I agree with Eastbaymom about the ventilation. In an open open plan like this (both sides) you need really good vent hoods. What I've learned here is that an overpowered hood on a lower setting will work better than a just adequate hood on high. Good vent hoods, and heated make-up air if necessary, can make all the difference.

http://www.fleetwoodusa.com/

http://www.solarinnovations.com/residential/sliding_glass_doors/

http://www.nanawall.com/Application/IndoorOutdoorSingle.aspx

http://www.nanawall.com/Application/IndoorOutdoorSingle.aspx

PLLLOG and EASTBAYMOM,

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I honestly don't know much about vent hoods. I have read some of the threads which seem to be mostly about style. I have also looked at some prices -- yikes! When you say powerful are you referring to a particular measurement of airflow exchange, or some such thing? I had actually thought about this myself, and will definitely take this into consideration.

Yes, we had planned to have an outdoor fireplace in the arcade, and using the interior fireplace's chimney is a good idea. I had also considered an old world style open wood burning brick oven, but am not sure if it will happen.

The retractable walls are neat! I especially like the "missle tested" Fleetwood -- you never know in our uncertain times! :)

The house is going to be built in central Missouri. I had never mentioned it because It seemed as though I wasn't among friends in that thread! Ha ha.

The measurement of vent hood power in the US is CFM -- cubic feet per minute. I would also look at the number of speeds you can use on the vent hood, and the sound output of the hood on high.

When you are ready to start talking about the layouts of the two kitchens, please do come back... you'll get lots of help here.

Do check your local codes about the vent hood. Some cold places require climate controlled make-up air for any extraction hood (vents outside) that has enough power to be at all useful. This should be designed in with your HVAC system. You also need to have the ductwork designed into the space, and consider things like remote blowers, which relocate the noise (usually to the attic or service area of the house) away from the living area. Talk to your architect about it too.

Check the appliance forum for people who are very knowledgeable about hoods and ventilation (function rather than style), also the heating forum.

On the retractables, since you're in Missouri, I'm thinking now that it would be great to do that for the exterior edge of the arcade where the outer walls of the masters close it in, but do it out of screen rather than glass, or screen from one side and glass on the other. That way, it could be a sunroom in the Winter and a screen porch in the Summer, and when the snow or bugs or whatever aren't bothersome it could be completely open. They'd have to run outside of the pillars, though. Okay, here I am spending your money for you, when you're probably undertaking plenty enough with the remodel altogether, but it would be really cool!

You're among friends here in Kitchens. Do stick around! Just don't let us talk up your budget. :D

Thanks -- I feel more at ease with the foodies, I guess!

I will check into the codes re: hoods...but...over the weekend some new designs magically appeared in my inbox from my architect. He felt that the original design (which was planned for a different site) could be improved with the site we actually bought. It creates kitchen questionsmaybe you all have some thoughts? Right now he has the kitchen placed at the front of the house to the left of the main entry in the larger side. These are only conceptual drawings.

{{gwi:1927600}}

Isn't it just the way! I get the shape, and the way it fits the lot, but it is much more duplexy and much less houseish. I'm not going to critique the layout of the house in specific unless you ask, but this doesn't flow nearly as well, there isn't any real useable yard, and all of the best sightlines are through the bedrooms.

This is exactly the time to be talking about kitchen ventilation to make sure it's accounted for in the plans.

As drawn the kitchens aren't as conveniently located as they were before, but they're usable. Most people don't want the kitchen to be the first thing people see upon entering, however, and I think you need to go over orientation and flow with the architect. I'm hoping that this was his way of showing you how the lot lays out so you'd have something you could respond to and work from (i.e., useful but not real). Oh! Wait! He thinks this is an improvement??? Did he say why?

Good luck!

PLLLOG:

Critique away...as long as we aren't stuck talking about future resale value! (I know...I have already been told no one will ever want to buy out house) :)

Well...he felt is was improvement for a number of reasons (don't want to bore anyone with 'architect talk,' but it included a) solar orientation, b) longer and narrower footprint assists in roof implementation and lowers costs, c) greater setback from street is more attractive...etc.

Now onto kitchens! The kitchen at the entry is less than ideal...I guess. I am not sure that it bothers me. I have heard it repeated often that people don't want the kitchen seen upon entry, but why -- what's the logic?

You mentioned flow...I'm listening. Help me out. In today's revision, the kitchen looks like a 'U'. What do people think of 'U' shaped kitchens? I
guess its better than a 'Z'!

I was concerned about the 'duplexy' nature of the design as well...in fact I used that exact word in my email to the architect! After seeing a conceptual elevation, I am not sure it does....you tell me.

-c.

{{gwi:1927601}}

{{gwi:1927602}}

You have a good architect, so the duplexy nature is disguised somewhat in the street elevation. The layout itself is very duplexy, where the former plan was more single house with dividing wall. One of the things, as I said before, that I thought was great about that plan was that it would take so little to make it into a single family home. Which is what you're making, but with a different definition of family than others. In saying so, I'm not just talking about the whole dreaded, who cares already, resale debate canard, but in the way the spaces react to each other in feeling parts of a whole vs. parts that are parts.

Kudos to your architect for caring about roof function! That's something the profession is known to neglect.

U shaped kitchens can be fine. They take some more care to lay out properly. That is, the most inconvenient L's usually function fine, whereas U's get some of the stupidest layouts ever. You're here in GW kitchens forum, however, so people won't let you get messed up. :) Do work on the actual layout, with appliances and storage, in the kitchen before you get too locked into a plan. Too many people think of that as finishes, and it's not! Then they remodel within 5 years of building because they have the wrong walls. Your kitchens don't look that bad in the sketch--but without placing things it's hard to know for sure.

I know a lot of your thought has gone into what you need the interior to do with the two sides, bedrooms, etc. How much time have you and the family put into thinking about how it's going to live? You have generations here, but are there siblings, cousins, cousins of cousins, friends who might as well be cousins, etc., in town? How much will they be at your house? How much will you be entertaining them inside, vs., outside? Will there be enough places for them to sit? For the children to play? For the teens to play football, Frisbee or whatever? To serve and eat? To barbecue and eat outside? Are there out of towners who will come to stay? Same questions. And if flocks of non-resident grandkids will be there regularly, are they going to be running back and forth between Grandma's side and Mom's side, and back and forth, and back and forth? The current plan looks better for that access, I suppose, with the hall, but the living areas aren't close to each other. Do your families kids get faster and louder the farther they have to run?

Some things I don't know about the site: Are there any views? Is it a busy street? Do you (will you) have neighbors on three sides?

The kitchen locations are better on the floorplan than I was imagining on the first sketch. There are all kinds of reasons for not liking the kitchen near the entrance, ranging from traditions of the kitchen being the servants' area, to not letting the heat out the door where there was only a keeping room, to some American feng shui ideas I can't repeat. More basically, people coming in the main door should be greeted by a reception area where they feel welcomed. In houses I know where people mostly come in the kitchen door, they enter to a seating area in the kitchen rather than the working zone, so it's welcoming even if it's the kitchen. The way this actually lays out, there are proper entryways, and people enter into the living/dining areas, which is fine.

I don't think the large side dining area is shaped correctly to be useful, especially for access to the arcade doors. You'll have to check the measurements on that. But do you want the arcade overlooking the street? Will anyone use it? Do you want to devote so much of the arcade adjacent area to laundry? You also have a lot of space devoted to halls and tunnels. Tunnel is what I call the hall between the closet and bathroom that gets you to the bedroom. I think it's great that you have room for windows in the kitchens in this plan, but what about windows in the bathrooms? The patios off the master bedrooms are nice, but why does the HVAC room get the prime view of the back yard?

I really do think your architect is good, and I see a lot of underlying whys in what's on the page, but looking at this plan I don't want to live there. I'd want to rearrange everything. Unless it's an utterly charming street with a gorgeous view over it, I'd want to put the function rooms, the studies and the chapel, on street side, the living areas with more access to the back, and the utility areas (laundries and HVAC) anywhere that isn't the best spot in the house. It might make functional sense to make them central, but it doesn't make living sense.

Example: Shouldn't the chapel have some pride of place? Wouldn't it be better where the laundries are? That way it's easily available to both sides as well. Perhaps in your way of living or your religion the chapel is supposed to be off to the side and away from the living space. If so, never mind.

Is there a spiritual aspect to the arcade? Or is it meant just to unify the two spaces? Is it meant to be a living/sitting area? Architectural interest? In the old plan, it looked like it would function as a unifying space and shared lanai. In the current plan, it looks like an unused area that needs to be swept regularly, where the person sweeping uses it the most. Unless that's a major view over a quiet street and a really lovely place to sit.

The small side master closet is in a difficult location. Does that side need that storeroom inside the house? Wouldn't it be better to make the closet area the storage with a door to the garage, and make the storage part of the master suite, with the door by the study wall, and make it the closet? It's much better not to have to get to the closet through the bathroom, too. Also on that side, it looks like the hall bath is larger than the master bath, and disproportionately large compared to the bedroom next to it.

The large side master bath could be a better shape. Big is nice if it feels big, but long and narrow tends to feel like extra space for the sake of space.

Mostly, however, what I see is a sprawling house that covers the whole lot and doesn't leave a gracious space. You probably have reasons for not wanting a 2 storey house, so I don't know how much it can be compacted and still give you the volumes you want. I just hate to see the biggest part of the open lot, therefore, devoted to parking. Do your setbacks require that much front yard? (Moot if that's the beauty view.) I want to pull the garages forward or push them back, and take the hardtop closer to the property line (unless you have setbacks for driveways, which we don't, or it's the custom there to keep them away from the neighbors or something). You can put in the new grassy kind of hardtop that you can drive on, but which doesn't do the heat absorb/reflect thing, and looks prettier, especially for the guest parking parts, which, presumably, won't be in daily use, so could be less central.

The shape of the house is also very choppy with boxes going in and out. In the old plan, it was more compact, and where there were juts they were purposed for things like courtyards, which are cool. I think the divisions can be adjusted and realigned to make the basic shape a lot nicer.

I'm not going to go on any longer since this is a first drawing for the specific lot. It's not that it's bad or anything, but I think it needs a lot of tweaking.

PLLLOG:

Now that's what you call a response! Thank you for a thoughtfully composed message with lots of good thought provoking questions.

I thought I would go through your response and try to address some of your questions in context.

>>U shaped kitchens can be fine. They take some more care to lay out properly. That is, the most inconvenient L's usually function fine, whereas U's get some of the stupidest layouts ever. You're here in GW kitchens forum, however, so people won't let you get messed up. :) Do work on the actual layout, with appliances and storage, in the kitchen before you get too locked into a plan. Too many people think of that as finishes, and it's not! Then they remodel within 5 years of building because they have the wrong walls. Your kitchens don't look that bad in the sketch--but without placing things it's hard to know for sure.

Ok -- but now you have peaked my interestso give me some ideas of stupid so I don't make the same mistakes. I certainly don't want to remodel in 5 years and if there is experience that can teach, let it teach.

>>How much time have you and the family put into thinking about how it's going to live?

We have tried to consider this in our design. The general goal was community with privacy, hopefully not mutually exclusive considerations. We did not want a design that forced community, but also one that excluded it. I think that requires compromise, which can lead to less that ideal design choices. I am not sure if we have achieved this goal.

>>Some things I don't know about the site: Are there any views? Is it a busy street? Do you (will you) have neighbors on three sides?

Neighbors on all three sides on a short cul-de-sac. Check this link to see an {{gwi:1927596}} view of the site. The lots with the stars are ours. The "view" is of the golf course, but we don't have it! And since there aren't any houses on the street yet, and the ones that we will back up to have not been built either, it's hard to say what things will look like in the end.

>>The kitchen locations are better on the floorplan than I was imagining on the first sketch. There are all kinds of reasons for not liking the kitchen near the entrance, ranging from traditions of the kitchen being the servants' area, to not letting the heat out the door where there was only a keeping room, to some American feng shui ideas I can't repeat.

There is a great deal of cultural variability here, but as you said, the floorplan does take you past the kitchen.

>>I don't think the large side dining area is shaped correctly to be useful, especially for access to the arcade doors.

I agree.

>>But do you want the arcade overlooking the street? Will anyone use it?

I would hope so -- that is the idea. While it faces the street in this version, I was anticipating that some additional landscaping could assist with privacy.

>>You also have a lot of space devoted to halls and tunnels. Tunnel is what I call the hall between the closet and bathroom that gets you to the bedroom.

Thus, in the aux. bedrooms, where would you put the bath? At the back of the room?

>>I think it's great that you have room for windows in the kitchens in this plan, but what about windows in the bathrooms?

Yes...a problem.

>>The patios off the master bedrooms are nice, but why does the HVAC room get the prime view of the back yard?

This had more to do with the builders than the architect. We were getting lots of complaints about cooling / heating efficiency with the HVAC located on the far ends of the house. I don't know enough to know whether they are right about it or are just griping.

>>I really do think your architect is good, and I see a lot of underlying whys in what's on the page, but looking at this plan I don't want to live there.

That's a kidney punch!

>>Example: Shouldn't the chapel have some pride of place? Wouldn't it be better where the laundries are? That way it's easily available to both sides as well. Perhaps in your way of living or your religion the chapel is supposed to be off to the side and away from the living space. If so, never mind.

The chapel is to face east, beyond that there are no requirements...although being near the kitchen might not be too pleasing with lots of smells drifting in.

>>Is there a spiritual aspect to the arcade? Or is it meant just to unify the two spaces? Is it meant to be a living/sitting area? Architectural interest? In the old plan, it looked like it would function as a unifying space and shared lanai. In the current plan, it looks like an unused area that needs to be swept regularly, where the person sweeping uses it the most. Unless that's a major view over a quiet street and a really lovely place to sit.

It was intended as a communal focal point. I thought about the sweeping...thought I do think it will be a quiet street and would be a nice place to sit.

>>The small side master closet is in a difficult location. Does that side need that storeroom inside the house? Wouldn't it be better to make the closet area the storage with a door to the garage, and make the storage part of the master suite, with the door by the study wall, and make it the closet?

Yes, this makes sense.

>>The large side master bath could be a better shape. Big is nice if it feels big, but long and narrow tends to feel like extra space for the sake of space.

What's a better shape -- more square?

>>Mostly, however, what I see is a sprawling house that covers the whole lot and doesn't leave a gracious space.

Another kidney punch!

>>You probably have reasons for not wanting a 2 storey house, so I don't know how much it can be compacted and still give you the volumes you want.

Yes, we wanted to keep everything on one level so that everyone, including the elderly folks would access to the whole house.

>>Do your setbacks require that much front yard?

30ft.

>>You can put in the new grassy kind of hardtop that you can drive on, but which doesn't do the heat absorb/reflect thing, and looks prettier, especially for the guest parking parts, which, presumably, won't be in daily use, so could be less central.

This is an interesting idea. Are you talking about grass pavers or something of that sort?

I appreciate your comments.

'Morning.

U mistakes: Biggest mistake with a U shaped kitchen is to put one station on each leg (fridge, stove, sink). "Guy design" (not man-bashing. Females can do it too, and men can be good designers, but "guys" don't think it through) looks more at the visual symmetry of spreading the appliances out equidistance, than the lack of function the resulting workflow has. It works in a small kitchen, which is basically a galley with a closed end, but in a decent sized kitchen it's just the worst and all too common. The other big mistake in a U with umlaut (island) is the dreaded "barrier island". Not only are the stations too far apart, the island prevents walking between them. When you're ready to lay out the appliances, etc., post a new thread and I'm sure all the experts will weigh in.

Re "community with privacy", I got more of this feeling in the first plan than the site specific one. The new plan feels more privacy than community. But I'm sure it can be improved.

Re views, it looks a little from the aerial like looking out from your lot across your road is a bit downhill. Is that right? But you say you can't actually see the golf course. So it's pretty flat? Or is there a rise in between? It also looks like across the main road, behind your house, is an upslope. I could be totally wrong on all that. Aerial photos are hard to read.

If it's really pretty darned flat then views aren't a consideration. So then the frontyard/backyard decisions should be based on lifestyle. In a golf course community, on a side cul-de-sac, your road is quiet enough for sitting out front. How much do you want the few neighbors you'll have, plus whoever turns down your road for a pleasant stroll, plus guests and lost folks, observing you while you're sitting out front? How claustrophobic does it make you sitting out back where you're fenced in by actual fences and green screens? How do these ideas affect the way you want to orient your outdoor spaces?

It's important to consider the landscaping as you're settling the orientation of your house. Would you be happier with a big grassy area for playing on? A bunch of outdoor "rooms"? Does the front of the lot lend itself to vignettes that are greened off from the road, making it living space, rather than curb view space? Do you garden? Do you want specialty garden areas, like an herb garden/vegetable garden? A rose garden? A cactus garden? A spa? (Or is that in the plan where I was thinking "fountain"?) An outdoor kitchen/barbecue area? A lap pool? A horseshoe pit?

How much of the garden you want can be done in the front while keeping the curbside presence pleasant? Oh! I just got to the 30 ft. setback part. Wow! Okay, then I definitely think once you've got the house pretty well nailed down, it's worth talking to some great landscape designers about making the most of that front yard space, depending on the restrictions your community has. Plantings are lovely, but a space you can use, for instance, a meditation garden (winding path) with fragrant plants and a little seating area in the middle, could look good from the street, help to shelter the arcade, give you herbs and flowers, and still be a place you can walk and sit.

Where will you sit when you want to be outside?

Re the arcade, the quiet street won't be unpleasant, and you can probably use low bushes to screen it and still be able to see over. Would you be comfortable eating there? Not a meal, necessarily, but will you be happy exposed to the street and having tea and scones? (Or whatever your relaxation snack is.)

Re the arcade itself, on the new plan it looks more like a porch than a lanai, I think. That is, it's a lot longer/narrower in porportion than in the previous plan. I think that's the source of my skepticism about the sweeping. Looking at the elevation, I think it might be possible to make it deeper. That would limit the sun coming into the house, though the dormers address that. I think making it deeper might make a big difference. That also helps limit the animals on display feeling, because the shadowing from the arches and ceiling will also help privacy past the first 3-5'.

Re the aux. bedrooms, I'd want to rearrange the way they're laid out altogether. I don't know how possible it is, but I'd change them around. Generally, bathrooms want windows. Closets don't want windows. Living spaces want windows. Pantries don't want windows. Bedrooms want windows but beds are better on windowless walls. A powder room with no window is no biggie. A wash and dress bathroom likes having a window. Changing the shape and orientation and rearranging the divisions might eliminate the tunnels and gain some bathroom windows.

Re the master bath, that's something you can work out with the architect based on what fixtures you want. Flow in a bathroom isn't as complex as in a kitchen, but there are similar rules about locating fixtures, making features work, etc. For instance, a sit down dressing table in a bathroom/dressing room with some floorspace in the middle can be a lovely feature. In a lot of bathrooms, it goes unused. Sometimes a built-in dressing table (with sink) is nicer in a nook in the bedroom. Think about getting ready to go out fancy. Where does Mom do hair/makeup/jewelry, etc. Do the kids come and chat while Mom is getting ready? Help with her necklace? Tell stories about their days or make plans what they'll be doing with Grandma while the parents are out? Where do they sit while chatting? In a more open bathroom, it might be on the tub deck, or a small chair. In a long corridor, it doesn't work.

How will things be sectioned in the long corridor? Will there be a garden shower with an outdoor enclosure at the end? Will there be a separate stall for the toilet? Will you have a bidet? Will you have the basins on different walls at different heights? Is there room for that? Will you have towel warmers? Robe hooks? How big is the tub and where does it fit? And with everything that one likes in a nice master bath, how far do you have to walk to the toilet if you have a tummy ache?

Looking at the layout, I'm thinking that a smaller bathroom at the width shown might function better, but that's guessing at scale. And a shorter wider bathroom might be more pleasant. There's nothing like locking down the fixtures and making sure they fit right to be sure, same as with kitchens. It might be worth touring some bathrooms to decide how they best suit you all.

Re "kidney punches": In this kind of thing, I try to go for blunt and stark to get the point across. Both of those sentences were getting at the same thing. The first plan was compact and well organized. The new one sprawls and has a lot of chopped up areas. I really don't think it'll take a huge amount of change to make it all work, but I'd really like to see a lot of that duplexy feeling go.

I don't know if there are other reasons for some of the layout. For instance, did you specifically want the aux. bedrooms separated from the masters? Did you specifically want the studies adjacent to the masters?

Re the HVAC, is there a reason why it needs an exterior door? The mechanicals have to work, but that doesn't mean they have to have the very best location in the house. Office buildings are often built with a central stalk of elevators, stairs and restrooms, because it's convenient to build them that way, and it leaves the windows for the offices. But that also means that in a rectangular building the services are too far from the prime offices. It's less expensive to build it that way, but not great from a design point of view. You have tradeoffs there. I'd rather use that outside wall for a bathroom, and even if the HVAC has to be central, keep it in an interior enclosure. Why should the furnace have a better view than your daughter? But there might be a reason for that outside access that I'm unaware of. I take it there's no basement? Actually, isn't the HVAC noisy? Do you really want it next to a bedroom, if so?

Re the driveway, there are a number of ways of doing this. there are the pavers with the grass tufts in the middle, there are landscaped in things that work similarly (but I'm not sure how they're made), there's something I've seen on TV which is a kind of paving that has a full lawn growing on top of it, but which supports the grass so that it doesn't die from being driven upon, and a few other versions.

I'm not exactly sure how it would lay out, but I think what would make this shape work better for me, and have the charm of the first plan, would be to make the living areas in the center, where the arcade is, and have some front to back continuity. Move the large side aux bedrooms over next to the master, restore the courtyard area on the North side for the use of the Master. Or something. Oh! That's another reason the arcade doesn't work for me here. It's not really part of the living space. It's the laundry room view.

BTW, where are the fireplaces?

Have you checked to see if there are any restrictions in this subdivision or with this municipality on building one house across 2 lots?

Anne

ANNE:
Those questions were pretty much covered in the other thread about this house over here. Short answer, its allowable.

PLLLOG:
It seems like we are having a private conversation.

I will work on my U design and post it for comments. I won't take the GUY design comment to heart, being one. :)

What do you think of this article on kitchens and triangles
here.

Our lot is almost dead flat, which is an unusual in our area. The road does is a bit downhill, but just a tiny bit, so the golf course will not be in view. It is true that there is an upslope behind us.

It did seem that placing the arcade in the front, with the fairly large setback would avoid some of the claustrophobic back yard feeling. Of course its a compromise and we have been thinking about neighbors, passerbys, and the like. We have had a front porch elsewhere and never used it, but the construction of this arcade is radically different that what we had in the past. In face, being a street level is better in our mind, that an elevated porch where you are on display (no offense for those who like it).

I don't mind the kidney punches, but they do take you by surprise!

We had thought that by putting the aux. bedrooms towards the center of the house or near the connection point, it would allow flexibility for the smaller side. For example is the smaller side had more guests they could commandeer one of the those bedrooms and with a hallway and doors, they could have privacy.

Yes, the HVAC is a continual annoyance in these plans (all of them). The builders keep complaining that it has not designated place, the architect keeps ignoring them, and try to please both. In the end, I think we are getting more settled on building a full basement for additional storage and things such as the HVAC equipment. If we do that -- problem solved.

'Morning, Constantinople,

The private conversation thing sometimes happens when people aren't caught by a thread title, or look at the opening question and don't come back for the follow-up. You can start a new thread, with a catchy title, and get more people in on this. There are lots of people in KF who are floorplan crazy and will have lots of good ideas.

As you start to plan the kitchens, do read the READ ME thread that's usually on the first page or so of threads. There's lots of great information and starting places in there.

I get what you mean about sharing the intermediate bedrooms, and that might be a more important consideration, but I'd still like to see the living areas more central. Getting the storage and services into the basement sounds like a great way to conserve the middle of your house.

Another day, another floor plan revision, {{gwi:1927597}}, and elevation {{gwi:1927598}}.

Kitchens are still letter L and U.

I forgot. The article. I didn't read it through, but zones definitely are the new watchword. That's especially true for very large kitchens. My own opinion is that zones make the multiple functions of a kitchen work better, there's no point thinking that way in a small kitchen where they're all in the exact, same place, and for a moderate sized kithcen, they help with the thinking through of work flow, but aren't particularly distinct. The big mistake is interrupting the basic triangle by having zones but no direct access from fridge to sink to stove. In many larger kitchens, as well as some moderate sized ones, difficulties in making everything work harmoniously are solved by adding a prep sink--basically making a Rhomboid from two triangles connected on one leg.

Some large kitchens separate the baking zone out completely from the meals area, by having a range (inc. oven) in the cooking area, and wall ovens just for baking in the baking area. That leads to its own set of issues for in between stuff like quiches or souffles that are savory bakery, often with stove top components, and anything with a choux paste which is made on the stove and baked int the oven, etc., etc. It gets ponderous.

My suggestion is to start with a main workflow area that functions well for daily tasks. Add in specialty zones so that they focus the work without impeding the flow.

A specific example: I have my baking staples, utensils bowls and pans, between the cooktop and the ovens, outside of my rhomboid. The big mixer lives there as well. The first time I dipped into the flour I walked the whole way across the kitchen for a knife to level with (it's not that big a distance but annoying). I bought two open stock table knives that are shaped better for leveling, loosening cakes, etc., than my table knives anyway, and added them to the baking gear. It's two steps to the prep sink. When it's not baking it's the staging area for the stove and landing area for the oven, a convenient place to put a recipe or book, and access to the outdoor counter. I keep milk and butter in the fridge drawers in the island a couple steps away, although the main fridge is at the other side of the kitchen, and the pantry is halfway there. Since for baking one tends to gather ingredients all at once, this isn't a problem.

Oooh! Look!! A house shaped house!!

I'm punchy from lack of sleep.

The aux. bedrooms' baths and closets look much better, and I like that the back outline of the house isn't so jagged. Getting rid of the HVAC is great!

As shown, your U shaped kitchen is really an L with a really big serif. It works fine. Just thought I'd point it out. If looking at exactly what's on the page, I'd think about a shallow recessed cabinet on the pantry wall, and shallow shelves on that side inside of the pantry.

Why is there a window from the family room into the laundry? Is that supposed to be a fireplace? Is there supposed to be a fireplace on the small side?

I still really dislike the central laundry rooms. I take it that's still near the services and a desirable place for the builders? Not a good place for the chapel (my suggestions up topic) if the dome and cross are a go because you don't want the building itself to look like a church. But it still feels like the heart of the house is being used for laundry.

The new large side master bath looks a lot better, but it could be perhaps a hair bigger, and I'd change the orientation, or slide it over to the north a bit. As it is, the window in the toilet room is looking over the patio, which is bad. I also think there could be a little more room in the sink area. It's a much nicer volume than the long narrow one, however. The layout of the small side master bathroom, which I'm sure was just to show scale, is all wrong with the toilet between the tub and shower, and blocking the shower door as well. If the HVAC is now in a basement, the small side master bath could have more of that storeroom space and a bigger window.

But then there's the living area on the large side. There's a HUGE empty area, and the living/dining room is packed. Are you going to want to have island seating? By breaking up into formal and family areas, when you have the whole family together are you going to be squished? There isn't much seating space in the west room, with the large table there, then there's clear space for the "hall", then there's the large, unused space between the kitchen and the family room seating, which you need for traffic. And not enough room for a big table on the east side.

I'm thinking things like elongating the living/dining along the east side, to take advantage of the arcade, moving the laundry perhaps to the corner by the entry, reorienting the kitchen to face the current living/dining, and make that the family room. On second thought, move the front entries to within the arcade for both sides, move the laundries toward the garages, and the living areas along the arcade. Deepen the arcade to make it less porchy.

These are tweaking, however. I think this version is a lot better.

PLLLOG:

>> Oooh! Look!! A house shaped house!!

We're getting there

>>Why is there a window from the family room into the laundry?

So you can see when the laundry is done! :) I think it actually represents a flat screen television and if you look really close, the letters are "TV."

>>I still really dislike the central laundry rooms.

I have been trying to find a place for them that works. I think one could go where the chapel now is (as you mentioned) and the other could go over where the storage is on the small side with the chapel in the center. It would also make the chapel more accessible to both sides.

>> There's a HUGE empty area, and the living/dining room is packed.

We discussed that. We aren't really sure if we need a formal living room and thought of simply turning the family room into a dining room and having just the one living / seating area on the north side. Without the dining table there, it would create more space. This still needs some thought.

>>On second thought, move the front entries to within the arcade for both sides

This is another idea that we had tossed around. Not sure how it would work / look. It would obscure the entry point as it is drawn now. It would require some rethinking for the arcade.

>> Deepen the arcade to make it less porchy.

Right now we are talking about 8'...how porchy is 8'?

LOL on the TV! That makes more sense. So regarding thoughts of combining TV and company seating... consider this: how TV oriented is your family? Is it everyone curled up on the sofa together watching a show or movie? Do the kids want to sit/stand on the floor in front of a low TV to play video games? Is the TV mostly for news and cultural shows? Do you want the whole neighborhood to come over for viewing parties (sports, Oscars, etc.)? Is a basic sized flat panel over the fireplace an option? Or do you need an optimal height giant screen?

How else do you use your seating? Does the family gather together nightly before or after dinner? That will give you the minimum number of seats for the main seating group. When you entertain do you like to have one large seating group so that everyone can participate in the same conversation/game/singing? Or do you want clusters of seating where twos, threes and fours can clump?

I just thought of this: Is the chapel just for family use, or do you expect to share it with other members of your religious community and require additional entertaining space for them? Will you be hosting wakes, receptions, etc? Services? Is it important to have the chapel near the entry (an entry) (and powder room) so that people can come in and out without intruding into the house?

Once you answer all these questions you'll know the size, height and orientation you'll prefer for the TV and the size and shapes of the seating groups you want both for family and entertaining, it'll be easier to decide which walls you want where for your living area. Building is a unique opportunity. Usually people have to adapt themselves to the space that comes with the house. Sometimes that's easy, sometimes it takes being clever (I solved it for one guy by making the dining room into a TV room and putting the table area in the living room), sometimes it leads to remodeling. If you can figure out how you want to use the space before you build you can do all your remodeling on paper. :)

Skipping a little (I'll go back): My front porch, which is very porchy, is 6'x30ish'. An extra two feet wide, would give more room for chairs along the wall (no seating now, just some urns with plants and the walking space), but is still a corridor rather than a room. Think about seating groups and tables. A sofa on the wall (bench, whatever) with a chair at right angles so that people can see each other. A table with four chairs so people can have a meal or play a game/puzzle. Living space. I think 6' for furniture, a foot for ease room, and three feet for passing sounds like a room. That's 10'. That sounds like a room. Make the furniture small (which is okay with outdoor furniture) and you can get away with the 8' of floor space, but it'll feel cramped because of the lack of volume. I.e., porchy. BTW, I'm talking about space clear, not including the pillars, and bumpy bits that walls have. 12' would be even better, because, at least as I was seeing it in the first plan, the arcade is supposed to be a graceful joining of the two spaces besides a walking and living space. Are you right up to the setback the way it is now?

A lot of it depends on how you want it to function. It might work fine for you as a porch. A couple of nice benches and a cafe table that are small and don't impinge on the walking area, to give people places to sit and watch the birds, drink a cup of tea, visit with droppers by. And you have other places in the garden where you can do "outdoor rooms". If you're willing to let it be a nice porch, it's fine as drawn.

Re entries in the arcade, I agree, the way the elevation looks now, they're clear and have a certain importance. On the insides, as well, the entry ways are well conceived and gracious. Moving them to the arcade is what I'd consider if necessary to make the interior of the house work better. There are things that can be done with visual cues to make it easy for visitors to know where to enter, though, yes, the roof layout would need to be amended so that it doesn't cue the current entries.

Especially if the arcade can be deepened a bit to room width, you might do something like have lovely wrought gates on the entry path/garage sides of the arcade, which would be the actual entrances. Those could be the "doors" where the UPS man comes, etc., and when guests come in, they come into the grace of the arcade. Then they enter through the appropriate main door, where the coat closet is, etc., or they're offered a seat in the arcade and tea and cookies are brought out to entertain them. That could be quite lovely.

If the arcade is open and more porchy, the material of the front paths can be used either to continue the paths to the doors, or to outline it, or could be broken up and interspersed with the arcade floor material. Literally leading people to the doors. Similar treatments can be done to decorate other parts of the floor so it doesn't look like the follow the red stripe in a hospital. It can be quite beautiful.

Or the front paths can just lead to the arcade so that people know that's where to go to find the entrances, and just have important looking doorways within the arcade so that they can easily pick out where to go.

OTOH, while I like the idea of using the arcade as a greeting area (snooping area where the two sides can spy on each other's company?), if you can find ways of demoting the laundry rooms without sacrificing the entries as shown, that would be great.