Hi desertsteph, I did have the opening to the pantry going through that area, with the oven facing in, instead of toward the kitchen. It was in the other thread. Everyone thought it would bottleneck too much, so I nixed that idea. I did like the idea of having that wall, we have very limited wall space.

Bmore, would you put the fridge where the oven is NOW, or would you put it on the other side of the water wall? I'll work that up right now and post to see what yall think. What you say makes sense, can't really remember "why" it didn't seem to work there. OH YES I do now! LOL Because you would have to walk around the island to get to it from the range or prep sink. Do you think that wouldn't be an issue?
I'm not having seating on the long end, and I could narrow the island. I just don't want it to be so thin that it looks like a noodle. I've seen some like that.

Something like this? Would you put the freezer on the back side of the fridge? Or would it make it seem in the family room?

Have you considered putting the clean up sink on the wall where the ovens are and the ovens on the wall where the clean up sink is? I know everyone loves a sink with a window (overrated IMO...I've only had one kitchen with a window at the sink and I don't miss it at all) but your clean up zone is miles from the DR which means your dishes etc will be too.

I would put the ref within the "L" walls and not extend the wall on the outside as you have shown. That more-or-less prevents the walk-around the island thing and is slightly shorter to the range. I can't believe you go 32 feet round trip to the ref!

I'm not sure about the sink in the pantry - didn't you want it near the baking area? Does your spouse bring home fish or game?

I'd put the freezer where it could be vented? (meaning a grate in the wall down low, near the compressor or maybe where an a/c duct is located (preferably a return air duct). Maybe even consider beside the water heater. They make a fair amount of heat.

"I did have the opening to the pantry going through that area, with the oven facing in, instead of toward the kitchen. It was in the other thread. Everyone thought it would bottleneck too much"

I know - but at that time with the oven facing inward people would be walking in/ out of pantry when someone might be opening /shutting the oven door. With oven facing outward, that won't happen. i'd just be sure to have some counter space next to the oven for landing space. same with fridge.

I can't tell the difference between layout 1 and 2 on here... I'm I blind? I have my glasses on!

Mostly, the oven and the ref traded places.

Oh, I forgot to say that if you have stools and something (oh like a refrigerator) that you access behind them, you need to allow for an aisle that is minimum of 5 feet wide. This would allow you to open/close an oven, barely open the ref or a cabinet behind the seated person. If the oven is ready to remove the hot stuff, you might have to reach in from one side and there is a danger of spilling the whole thing over the seated person or yourself if the seated person suddenly decides to get out of the way or a little person tries to squirm through.

Also remember that when a 4 foot aisle has stools in it, the passage that remains after someone is seated is somewhat less than two feet.

You might not be planning on stools there, but that's the scoop if you are.

Cheril27, I could put the oven over there, but the microwave will be in that stack as well and I think it would be too far away from ref. I don't know, may have to play with that.

bmore, I'm posting what I think you were talking about. I don't know though, it only gives a little over 3 feet for baking space. Is that enough? I'm a spread out cooker, and would probably end up on the island. Re; Freezer, the return air vent is by the hot water closet, so I could move the freezer on that wall if it would work better.

desertsteph, if I put the pantry door there, I lose all counterspace for baking. That's why I put the oven facing in, so there could be counters for baking on the side. Don't you think it would be too cramped?

Here's with the ref moved to the other side of water wall:

Our microwave is actually in the mudroom since we don't use it much. Can you separate the ovens? Putting the baking ovens on the current sink wall and lowering the counter next to it would make a lovely baking area; spacious, no one crossing paths, looking out the window while kneading, rolling etc. Or are you still intending to use the pantry as a baking room? If so, have you considered whether working in a windowless room would bother you? I know I wouldn't like it (but then, I don't like any rooms without windows). Even though it's quite large, it would still feel like a closet to me.

I think you have too much space, which is making it very difficult to make decisions.

Get the refr in the L. Open up the entrance to the family room, its a circulation nightmare. Use your big sink in the island, with a DW, and maybe use a small sink in the L. Don't get stuck with that window, it's also causing you to limit your options.

I'd think about moving the big range to that end wall where you have the sink now. It's a visual element that can really be featured, and won't be in the way of traffic.

Having either the oven or fridge outside the L crowds the island too much. If you spread out, going to the island is OK. I see 4 ft for the baking area, which is what I have. Could I love 5 or 6 ft? Sure, but spreading to the island is a lot of what the island is for.

What's going on with the pantry now? A sink and an island? Can you talk about your plans for that?

If you put the doorway to the pantry from the oven/fridge area, you'd have a straight counter run to the left of the oven (If oven is at the top wall) that would be about 4 ft. ANd could the pantry wall move to the left?

susie - I went back to your 'new' layout on the other thread - linked it below.

I think what I'd do (if not putting fridge/oven on the L) would be to use maybe the first 2/3 of the long oven/fridge pantry area for the fridge/oven and baking area - with sink.

then I'd wall off the last 1/3 with a door in the center going into the pantry. you would then have a walkin pantry with shelves on 3 sides. no extra expensive for nice cabs needed. No opening of cabinet doors/drawers to get an item or restock it.

on the 'baking' part I'd try putting the oven on the outer wall end (can be seen in the kitchen/range area) and maybe build out a little cubicle (like the one on the left of that 'pantry/baking area' wall shared w/FR) - making enough space for the fridge to live and face toward the island.

the alcove that the added cubicle would make could be used for shelving or a seating area on that end of the FR. You could also still outfit it with a credenza type piece that has a pull out / expanding table to use at the holidays. My sister had one of those pieces we used at holidays - it was a great help with our large family.

Here is a link that might be useful: prev thread

Rhome, thanks, as usual. I played with what I 'think' you are talking about. Pantry was just doing it how bmore had it, and added a sink just for thought. Not really serious about it, but was thinking.

desertsteph, is what you are talking about kind of what rhome was saying as well? I've read your idea about 20 times and been trying to figure it out. It actually sounds very interesting, but I'm confused. (not unusual)
Maybe you can tell me from this last attempt where it is in relation to what you're thinking?

Oh, and Rhome, I forgot to answer your question about pantry wall. Yes, it can be moved left. There's nothing there now, DH just waiting on me.

Is this what yall were thinking?

going on what is in the post above @ 0:00
not sure if oven is on upper wall or lower one but i'd put the oven on the upper wall and the fridge on the lower one - facing the island. drop it down a few feet so it makes a 'bookend' to the water heater (?) on the left of the wall shared with pantry and FR - making an alcove there.

I'd 'shorten' the pantry area also allowing for a longer stretch of counter top next to oven and behind the fridge.

let me know if you want me to clarify anything.

what is the really dark line (but short one) below the appliance you have on the lower of the 2 walls by the pantry? the water line post?

Can't speak to what the wonderful rhome is thinkin', but I'm thinking the below with a little bit of explainin'.

The exact positioning of the pantry wall isn't critical. So, other than moving the freezer out of the pantry, this allow for some landing area between the ref and freezer - maybe 3-4 feet. If it were me, I'd leave some empty undercounter space there between the two and park a cart in it to trundle around volume stuff.

I would also think about doing a small utility cabinet right beside the freezer - brooms and such like or with pullouts. This would increase the door swing area for the freezer.

You can sneak a sink on the oven side if you need to.

I strongly recommend the pantry have a pocket door or a bypass door. These can be left open during prep without getting in the way.

The other thing (and I am harping on it) is the blue measurement line between the two asterisks needs to be about 4 feet to allow for good circulation between the family room and the dining room-rest of the house. Right now, its about 3 feet. Things that can "solve" are to clip the corner of the island pretty strongly (catercorner green line) or make the island less deep (lengthwise green line). If that side of the island is still planned as seating, an 18" overhang would still be generous and people can still work on both sides.

The other little blue asterick is to remind you of two things since that area is very tight. Possibly, its just drawn weird, but in case its not - the ?trash pullout? on the inside corner near the cleanup sink makes me think of fillers -you'll need one on both sides of that corner. The other is that the exposed cabinet side will need a panel added to it. Putting both things together, you might have 3" or so LESS space than you show so be careful you don't end up with cabinet sizes that make the exposed side stick out well beyond the wall.

desertsteph, is what bmore posted sort of what you are talking about? It sounds like it to me? That dark circle/line that you see is the space where the water lines are located.

bmore, I like what you show, if it doesn't look like a "bottleneck" when I put it on the plan and 3D it. That was the problem before. I can make the island narrower, it won't have seating there, just a rectangle. I had 30" drawers on range side, so I could possible put 10-12" cabinets on backside just for storage? Or would you NOT make the drawers 30", and go 24"? I thought the 30" would be more functional, narrow cabinets could house a lot of things I don't use often, vases, maybe even cookbooks I can't get rid of?

the trash pullout beside the island sink is actually an 18" pullout in a 24" cabinet. Is that sufficient? That is what I have now by the main sink.

I agree about having something next to the freezer, just watched a house hunters show on HGTV and saw a fridge butted up on a long wall and wondered if that freezer side would really open! So, I'm learning! ::)
Will mock up what you have on the plan and post it in a bit.

I can't speak to having 30" deep drawers - never had them.

30" drawers + 12" backing cabinets yields an island that will have a 45" wide top - plenty of top for people working on both sides or to sit out appetizers on one side while people still work on the other. It still adds about 6" back to the blue line place.

EXCEPT that some cabinet guys use 30" deep to be the finished size of the cabinet + door and some guys use it as the finished size of just the cabinet. It's also fairly typical for the cabinet to be just slightly less than the nominal size. This is a place where its good to be clear because it would change the island depth by another 1.5".

As long as the trash pullout DOOR can clear the hardware of the cabinet at 90 degrees and the reverse, cabinet clears the trash pullout handles, you're good. The size of the pullout unit itself doesn't matter, I think you are doing framed cabinets so it would always be a minimum of 3" less.

Generally the door adds 3/4" to the depth of the cabinet and the handle adds anything up to 1.5". And you'll add a panel, also 3/4" deep, to the visible side of the cabinet on the other side of the sink. Using framed cabinets, there is usually a filler of 3/4" to 1.5" added OR possibly the frame on the sides of those cabinets in the corner is wider than the frame on the outside edges.

I like that trash pullout back in the pantry/secondary kitchen. I make trash putting away stuff in safer containers (ants!). I worry about the message to the kids tho, with it being right beside their oven :)

Ok, let's see what yall think about this latest.
The trash pullout that I'm having built is sort of old fashioned, I guess you could say. I asked the guy to build it like the one I have now, which is good for me. It has a bottom and when you pull the door out, the trash is in my own personal can sitting on the wooden bottom. I looked at the ones that most offer now, and all I saw was my basketball misses and trash all over the place. :) It has a drawer on top which I also like to keep dishrags handy by the sink.

Do I need a sink over there? It occured to me while drawing this out, if it seems too closed off, too seperate, what do yall think of a pony wall between the fridge and the freezer? Not so closed off, still have quite a bit of wall space on the FR side, have a view into the dining area,and when kids and I are in there baking, we could interact with the crazy football watchers? Of course they (football fanatics) would much rather it stay closed in. They gripe enough about the noise we make NOW, LOL.

How's this? I need to go back and read the previous thread, because I had something much like this, and it seemed there was a lot of negatives pointed out about
it, but personally, I like it. The space seems more utilized, and in the area before the pantry, I can keep baking supplies right at hand. Maybe it's the oven/fridge swap that might make it better?

Susie, your 0:00 is close to what I was thinking, but I would move the pantry wall left, like the lovely Bmore :-) did, but maybe not as far...and I would also leave some counter next to the fridge...Between it and the pantry doorway.

Since the door swings on those appliances won't work for the way Bmore has the fridge and freezer in her 7:36 plan, I'd eliminate the counter in between and use the counter across for a landing zone...and move her pantry wall to the right. (Oh, and put your utility cabinet in there, too, if you want. Or put that in the pantry?) For me, I'd want more pantry and would be more than happy with 8 ft of counter to the left of the oven. In case that's confusing, looking at Bmore's plan, move the pantry wall back right about 3 ft, pushing the fridge and freezer together into their set...This will allow the fridge to stay as close to the kitchen as possible, since it will now be on the pantry side of the freezer.

Speaking of the oven, what is shown next to it?

I'm not sure I really like the fridge oriented so that you have to walk a more circuitous route from the range to get to the front of it... But maybe to have it alcoved like you always wanted, and to have that baking area, it'd be OK...

Hate to say it, but if you're going to have the enclosed baking area again... that large, and that far from the main work areas, I think I'd want a sink in there.

Rhome, OK,let me see how confused I am. If I move the fridge and freezer together, when they sit as a set, the freezer is to the left, so on that wall, the freezer would be closer in to kitchen than fridge. SO, would it make more sense to put them on the opposite wall where the fridge is on the end? I agree about the pantry being bigger, when I started doing measurements, I was thinking that it seemed smaller for what I want to put in there.
What is next to the oven is actually an icemaker, I had put there previously when the fridge was over there since we would need that in place of the freezer being far away. If I put them both there, then it won't be necessary, and can become a trash pullout. Or not, I don't know.

I'm going to work on what you've said, in the meantime, I played with the other plan a little, and took a 3D of what it would look like with a half wall between fridge and freezer. I want to post it, just to get feedback.

Thanks so much you all, I know how complicated this has been, and you've shown so much patience.

3D of open baking area:

susie - it's close to what I was trying to say - I'd try turning the fridge so it opens toward the island tho. don't know how that'd actually look but trying to get the in/out of the fridge more available to your cooking area - and the game watching area - lol!

if you put the frzr w/it that probably won't work out tho.

I also think a sink in the baking area would be good - and maybe a dishdrawer.

If you think the pantry area has been shrunk too much you'll have to stretch it out again - lol! only you know how much space you will need for storage there. If it's floor to ceiling shelves on 3 sides it'll give a lot of storage space!

There will be cabinet space (drawers?) in the baking area tho to also use for storage.

I do like the idea of a moveable cart (maybe kept to the side in the pantry?) to use when moving lots of things in / out of the pantry. (cleaning time? ah gee... hire that out! it's an ugh job).

Am I thinking the doors are backwards? I bet I am. I was thinking they would both open towards the center, but maybe they don't in real life. Are the doors reversible on the units you own?

I think the peep window would help with that cut-off feeling. Do you want to explore making it into a doorway? I know more time might irritate your spouse but this would shorten the beer run (if it works for you).

Bmore, She has the same set fridge/freezer set I have. They do open toward the center, but opposite of the way you show them above. The fridge has to sit on the right, as it hinges on the right. I don't know WHY they didn't make the doors reversible. Seems like all fridges and freezers had that option for so long, so why quit?

Susie, I'm not loving the opening.... at least not as shown.

I could see a doorway, as Bmore suggested.

So how about this... Move the fridge and freezer back to the back wall, and frame in the oven facing toward the kitchen, as was suggested, I think, in the prior thread... So you can see it from the main kitchen area, as I know Cotehele recommended. Put the doorway in behind the oven where you show the half-opening...

Now that I've drawn it (so taken FOREVER to get this message posted), I don't know how it would look...but that's what 3D renderings are for! :-)

Here is a couple 3D's of what rhome has drawn. I'm anxious to see what yall think. Pay no attention to detail! I'm just trying to find a mock up of a plan that will work! I DID stick some bookcases behind that oven cubbie, it just looked too odd sticking out in the middle of nowhere.

I'm thinking if I put some kind of piece of furniture on the backside, or something, it would take away from the odd look of an oven out in the middle of nowhere. LOL

Rhome, I know you are on the west coast, is everyone else safe inland? I can't remember who is on the east coast, but I'm thinking of you!

I would make that opening into a 3 ft doorway...Not so wide and with the frame around. (Sorry I didn't draw the floorplan so it showed a doorway.) That will connect things and will keep the oven from looking like it's alone out in the middle... at least from the living/family room.

I agree about making it into a wall opening instead of having no wall.

Two minor comments. The ref is back where it was! No landing area for the ref or the freezer.

I think fridge landing space rates in different priority levels for different people, so Susie, you'll have to think about it for yourself in this case. There is the counter to the left of the freezer, which is not the greatest, since it's behind the open freezer door and away from the kitchen, but better than I have. I use my island as landing space for my fridge and freezer set...It's about the same distance, but not as straight a shot, as in this latest plan. It works fine for me. The only time I miss a landing spot is when I'm doing a thorough clean out, and in this plan, that counter to the right will work for the fridge.

These are 2 options with paths to/from the fridge. Blue lines indicate landing, and red indicates path from the stove. Not trying to give opinion on which is better...Just so you can see and consider. THere are pluses and minuses to both.

I like rhome's first layout above (13:32) best.

My only suggestion is... you could move the oven so it backs up to the pantry (eliminating the new door entry idea.) In the above plan, it would move the oven to the left until it hit the pantry wall. I'm not sure if that is the best idea, but it would open that major walkway right there...

Also, my fridge is isolated a bit... so my closest landing spot, the island, is 68" away. Ideally, there would be a counter right next to my fridge where I prep. It just doesn't work for my layout. In the whole scheme of things, this is a minor annoyance and doesn't bother me day to day. (My point.... I agree with Rhome: your fridge can be off to the side and it probably won't make the world end. You just have to decide what works for you... :))

putting them together and the fridge only opening to the right makes the fridge even farther from the kitchen proper. I think I'd split 'em - putting the frzr where it says 'util?'.

Okay. It's time to be the sourpuss. Susie, please don't be offended. I want to offer a reality check, but I'm not trying to put you down or anything like that. I just think you're too close to the issue. I've been staying away from your plan for awhile because I couldn't see any new ways I could help you. Now, I think I have to say this just so you'll get a more distant view.

Sometimes the reason something doesn't work within a certain set of constraints is that it just doesn't work. You're basically doing two half kitchens because you have two half spaces. I'm not sure if you're still trying to use the old cabinets, which would be an added constraint.

I really don't like harping on resale, but I can't see anyone else being happy with this kitchen plan, and if you have a sudden life change that requires sale of your house for the best price, you're going to have problems. That's a small issue, however.

A much bigger one, is living with this space! It doesn't work. Everyone has been helping you to make the best of it, but I think it's time to throw in the towel when you're decorating you dining room with a pillar containing an oven but have the clean up sink (where the dirty dishes from the dining room go) a hike away.

A conventional L-with-island kitchen, where you have the kitchen drawn, and a pantry with the freezer where you have the pantry will work without being too crazy.

OTOH, maybe moving the kitchen altogether is a better idea. Make the family room into a large kitchen. Put a new fireplace back to back with the LR fireplace and make a seating area around it. Put a play area near the bedroom.

Or do the same, but make the area where you show the kitchen currently into the dining room and the current dining room into a family area. I think that would be even better in terms of making sense of the house, and only mention it second because the kids would be playing farther from the kitchen, and also because you might not want the kid area visible from the living room.

You've been stuck so long, and have had so much trouble making these plans work, that I think you really need to stand back and look at what will actually make this work for you. Otherwise, you're still going to be working on plans when all the kids are grown and you'll be changing it to fit a whole different set of needs and back again for the great-grandchildren.

Remember when you're drawing floorplans that it's not just about fitting appliances, fixtures and cabinets, but it's figuring out where the people will be.

Thanks yall! Yes, I see what yall are saying about the doorway rather than open walkway.

When looking at these options, for some reason, the second one looks better to me. When working with the one with the oven facing kitchen on bottom wall, it was kind of bothering me that there was no workspace beside it. Like the setup I have currently, it's always shoooing someone out of the way, either bringing stuff out of the oven, or putting things in. It's particularly bothersome when you're bringing a HEAVY dutch oven full of a lot of food, ie; roast! With the oven on the top wall, the counter next to it seems more practical? I don't worry about the fridge landing, it seems like no matter where you are working, you have to take things to different areas of the kitchen. I DO wish the handles could be reversed, but they can't!

OK, I've been working on this most of the day, so I didn't see the last three posts until I had already posted this!

lolauren, I agree about the fridge. I currently have my fridge stuck off where the pantry area is in these plans, while working in the current kitchen, and even that distance doesn't bother me THAT much.

desertsteph, I've been thinking some about what you are suggesting. I like that alcove like rhome has in her house so much that I was really thinking it might work in this latest plan, but it might not be "best" for the layout.

Plllog, I APPRECIATE your honesty! Doesn't hurt my feelings, and maybe you are correct in needing to step back and look at it again. DH has already moved our door to the bedroom, worked on the range wall, and we are now taking up the old flooring, so there is a little time to correct things. He is a good guy, and will change, move, redo whatever for it to work out GREAT. And, your point about resale is a valid one, not to put my life woes on here, but I have had cancer three times, and I know that in the event that anything should happen, he will not stay here. His goal for the past two years was/is to give me the kitchen of my dreams, appliances are all here, flooring is here, wood for my island top is ready to be made, and countertops and cabinets just need to be ordered. I DO want to reuse as many cabinets as possible. Call me crazy, but I like them, am happy with them, and don't want to lose any more of them than have to. We have wood flooring in the family room, and the dining/living area, so I was really trying to work around the footprint of where the tile is that we are taking up, I've bought terra cotta for the flooring.
I know everyone has been trying to make it work, and what was started in the beginning has mushroomed as I know a lot of remodels do, when you find things you didn't know was there, etc. We did put a beam up so we could lose the column in the kitchen, only to find the water lines were the main supply lines to the house! That was the biggest setback, and there was no way of telling until we took that wall out to the floor. DH and contractors thought they were lines that were just left there from the previous owners remodel, and could be capped off, but that was not the case. So, I take your advice and suggestions with all good intentions and no hard feelings at all!
I would LOVE to utilize this space where it is more liveable and beautiful at the same time.
I'm going to post a picture of just the "SPACE", and if you or anyone else have any suggestions, I am open and eager to look and contemplate just about anything.

Here's the "space":

bringing a HEAVY dutch oven full of a lot of food, ie; roast!

It's always hard to imagine cooking in a new space -- aren't there 3 or so ovens you'll have in the lacanche for stuff like that?

bmore, it does have two ovens, but I anticipate using the larger one for bigger dinners because of the size of the ovens. But, I may find that the ovens are adequate as they are, and only need the bigger one for baking, which we do a lot.

I'm in the process of going back through all the layouts, options, and seeing if there are any that might "work" I don't want to end up with something no one would want to buy. Even though I might like it!

Thanks!

Susie,

I think your kitchen is awesome in all of its largeness. I love that your dh has been working on it for 2 years -- making it your dream kitchen.

Looking at it, I like the latest incarnation with the freestanding wall with the oven on it. Could you not make that an "L shape, and make a wall that would house the freezer and fridge, effectively sliding them 4 or so feet closer to the end of the island? It would have to extend a little to the right, you might lose a little light from the slider, but still (to me) looks like it would have plenty of room to pass when coming from the dining room. The pantry could be in the little hallway that's created behind the fridge and freezer, maybe???

I love the appliances that you have, and would want full access to all of them -- you'd give up a little openness to gain convenience and access to all of your amenities. I can understand relegating a freezer to a back room if it's the only way, but you seem to have the freedom to design it to be closer, that's what I'd do, slide them up for convenience's sake.

Don't give up - I think you're on to something wonderful. And do not shrink away because of resale fears. I think there's a lot of people out there who would love it.

Susie, I'm glad you're taking this well. People have said their feelings were hurt when anyone said something gently to them about their plan not working, especially when question A was asked, and the response was "forget that, look over here at what's wrong with B". I'm going to continue to speak very firmly because I believe passionately in what I'm saying, and trust that you'll continue to take it in good part and if you don't like what I have to say, ignore it instead of being upset by it.

Regarding resale, anything that the general buying public considers "weird", that doesn't look "normal" to them is a turn off. It's not that you can't find just the right buyer, given time and patience. In a seller's market location and structural integrity are all you need. In a buyer's market, to get a quick and/or top dollar sale, you need to be conventional enough that someone else can feel like he/she fits in.

I totally get it about keeping the floors. Redoing them is a big mess and expense, and could cost the difference in what you'd get from the resale, if/when the house actually is sold.

The fridge in what is essentially a different room from the sinks and range, however, is not good. It's fine if you have a teeny tiny house and a big, modern fridge, but that isn't the case here and it makes absolutely no sense. None. And presents a big expense to the buyer to fix.

Having the wall oven hanging out in the dining room doorway is also a big time no-no. Big time. Not as bad as the fridge in the wrong place, but nearly.

If you were putting 36" fridge drawers in the kitchen proper, which is expensive, you could spin a story that the fridge in the pantry is the "spare" fridge, but that pantry needs to be out of view of the dining room. There's something amiss when it's open to the dining room and "front" of house and covered from the family room.

This latest plan, based on Bmore's 7:36 is far better than many of the previous because it does separate the two parts of the kitchen into distinctive areas. You can call the bedroom side a pantry and butler's pantry, and the family room part a kitchen. That makes sense. I've seen butler's pantries with full working kitchens in them. That works. But the appliances shouldn't be visible from the dining room.

In your latest elevations, it looks like there's a sink in the butler's pantry, right? So maybe the thing to do is turn it into a scullery, and put the dishwasher there as well, and the dishes. Move the oven away from the dining room.

If you put the oven next to the pantry wall, and eliminate that whole place where the oven stack is, extend the bar space, which I think is at the end of the dining room to cover it instead, and have the sink and DW there, that makes sense. It's easily gotten at from both the DR and the family room/island seating.

There's still enough counter space for landing from the oven. Either close up the doorway into the FR, or put in a movable counter/cart/island thingie for baking space for the kids. And put the fridge, or a fridge in the kitchen proper. You need that a lot more than you need a sink under the window that's the farthest distance from where people are cooking and eating!

I agree with many of Plllog's suggestions, especially having the clean up sink, DW and dishes in the "butlers pantry" part of the kitchen. That area could also serve as an awesome breakfast/snack bar. I would take it a step further and get rid of the small leg in the kitchen proper (where the sink and window are now) and have a longer island for more of a galley style with the refrigerator at the far end of the range wall. This would require a small, undercounter fridge in the "butlers pantry", though.

Well, I've been pondering over some of these latest suggestions, going back over plans and layouts from earlier days, printed them all out, studied, and haven't really reached any conclusions as to what would work best, but I have been spending a lot of time in the kitchen, going over my steps, how we interact there, the living space, etc.

plllog, I had originally considered making the family room the dining room. However, we have a 45x14 covered porch on back with fireplace, full outdoor kitchen, and the dining will work best on back because of the in/out for serving, plus the sitting area out there is much like a family room.

I do know a little about resale, I sold real estate for many years, and there is a lot to consider in that area, you can easily OVER improve for your area, or lose the sale if you haven't. DH keeps harping that I not worry about that aspect of it.

He and I talked about it, and funny thing, he reminded me, a couple months back, we took a few days looking at homes on tour in the most expensive suburb of Dallas, not one house was listed under 1.5m, and NOT ONE kitchen was anything I would have lived with. If I spent that kind of money on a house, any of those kitchens would be gutted and redone completely! No drawers, (not over 21" at least) no originality, very boring. And, in Texas, 1.5-8m would be four times as much in most other regions of the US. So, there is a huge expectation. There was only ONE that DID give my heart an extra beat, and that was one that had a kitchen with a caterer's kitchen behind it.
Would my house at less than half the value of those support such a kitchen? I think not. But, it would give ME great pleasure, and in this price range, would probably sell my house.

Also, I was reading the kitchen sync blog, and the standout design trends included large, walk in pantries. The one pictured in her blog was very much what I would envision for mine. And, a scullery kitchen as mentioned? Well, I like that idea as well!

Plllog, you mentioned that the fridge would be visible from the dining? Does it matter that it's no formal dining? I looked around from various angles in the house, and where I'm contemplating putting them would really not be that noticable, I don't think. Besides, my range is dead on center the middle of my house! Right now, DH has my oven stack hooked up temporarily on the wall where the water lines are, facing the range. I don't like it there. It would be in a high traffic area, but just turning it the other way made the "baking center" area feel closed in.

Kris ma... I really appreciate your encouraging words. I don't know how long you've been on GW, these girls, (and guys,sorry) have been going on with me for a LONG time! I'm flying eveyrone down for a weekend to spend in this wonderful kitchen when it's done! I thank you for seeing great potential! And, Thanksgiving is coming FAST. I've got a list of names and a lot of tickets to book! :)

So, I've worked out something a "little" different, but not throwing out the last attempt, y'all need a rest, well, at least from the layout.

The drawing I'm posting shows a doorway. A couple 3D's show it both ways.
Eager to see what you think.

Just showing a doorway...

View from Dining area

I remember your kitchen but have not kept up with all that has been happening. Is it possible to put fridge drawers in the main kitchen? If so, with that and the sink by the pantry, to my way of thinking it's more two kitchens than one kitchen split in two. I do think the kitchen split in two could be a major problem for resale while two kitchens could be a boon. I could see a person with a home baking business, cake decorating, catering or such seeing the second space as a work kitchen plus extra food storage. I think the more you can make it two kitchens, especially if the second could easily be closed off or have a bar for serving/entertaining functions (or taken out and made into a nook for another purpose -- which requires one solid kitchen with only minor modifications), the more you will enhance the value.

I want to echo lascatx. It just seems to make so much sense to bring the fridge into that L and have a complete kitchen there as the main area, with the secondary ovens and microwave etc in the pantry area. Then all the extra becomes extra value/real estate, not part of a chopped up kitchen.

Well, yes, to the idea of the fridge drawers, but a new owner (or you, yourselves), should be able to retrofit that fairly easily, BUT, Susie, this last one is much better.

It's not the visibility of the appliances that's the problem so much as the prominence and the flow from the DR into the adjacent areas. The DR may not be "formal", but it's not a breakfast nook, either, and if the appliances are too much "in the dining room" rather than tucked away in their own area, you've lost the dining room-ness of the dining room.

I would wrap the FR side with a short wall as well, but it's okay open to counter like that, and can also be easily changed by someone else down the road. The addition of the sink makes baking much easier and goes with the whole Butler's Pantry motif, and the coolers are still accessible to the cooking zone.

If I had a client who wanted to close it off and put the fridge in the kitchen L, I'd suggest a curved wall between the two lengths, and move the freezer next to the oven. Not a whole big redo. It would also be easy to create more separation between the DR and kitchen with a short wall, but I doubt anyone would.

I'd still loose the window sink and add a fridge to the L (someone else said that too), and close up the BP some more, but this is a plan I could live with as it stands. The first one, really, that makes sense to me.

So. How much does it look like your dream kitchen? Is it everything you want it to be?

I think I like this. I'm not fully picturing what Lascatx may have in mind, so I'm not comparing it to her suggestions, which might be better, but I don't know. For one thing, our laws are so picky about kitchens used for business or commercial purposes, that I don't think this could meet, even if separated, as discussed...So I can't knowledgeably speak for what will work in your area. But if you enclose it, it means moving the fridge and freezer so that you lose a either work or storage space?

I have a couple comments about this plan, as shown.

1) I wouldn't cut the work-counter in half in the pantry area by putting the sink in the center. Move it to one end or the other...Or maybe leave a foot or so on the left of it and leave more clear space to the right.

2) Do you want the counter area coming out of your bedroom to be open to the dining room? If that is private, or even if not, I'd think about extending the wall from beside the fridge so it also encloses that end. I thought about the same thing with the baking area, but maybe that's too closed off if you are working with the grandkids and are using both the kitchen and the oven area...

3) I do think I'd put doors on those cupboards by the oven that are visible from the dining room unless you're far neater than I and will have cool jars, like I think I remember seeing in Bmore's pantry, or other way of displaying your essentials that's attractive. :)

4) A downside of the oven position is that you can't see the oven from the main kitchen to keep an eye on things. But that's really no different than letting something bake while in the next room, watching TV, reading, or visiting, so probably livable, especially since you have range ovens.

Walking into this kitchen while house-hunting could make me swoon!

I don't know about the Dallas area, but down here, you can do baking from home pretty easily. I looked at it years ago and couldn't because I have 2 dogs and 2 cats and my kitchen is open and can't be closed. I believe the TX legislature passed a bill in the last year or so to make small home cooking businesses easier -- mainly for the cake bakers and such. I only know about that because someone who does cake baking was so interested in it, but I don't know the details. I think it only has to have doors to be able to keep animals out, not be entirely walled up.

For me, having that sink in the second area is essential. If you have power and spots where you can pull out a 24, 27 or 30 inch cabinet and put fridge drawers or a spot where you can swap out a fridge, it can easily be retrofitted. But our perspective is a bit different that the typical buyer -- and that probably cuts both ways. Most folks don't know what it takes to be able to move things or how to tell if they could. I suspect most buyers would at least start with the idea that they had to rip it all out, especially if the changes involve power and water.

I definitely agree with moving the sink in the baking area -- centering it chops that space up and I meant to point that out last night. I was texting with my son who's off to college -- at least I wasn't driving. :-D

I think you've come a long way and are going to have so much to work with. I could work with this last one -- maybe add fridge drawers or a small fridge in the main kitchen if it seemed necessary. My main concern would be for food storage in the work areas. The pantry is so far away that you have to have some of your staples in the work zones. It probably means duplicating some of your spices, maybe flour and such. You have so much storage that you should be able to work it out. Just arrange the daily and several times weekly stuff where you work and use that pantry for the less often used things. If you work out those details, it should work for you.

Thank you all so much, I am happy.

Sorry it took so long to get back to this, but I've been down for the past two weeks, unable to zone in on the details.

I will move the sink down toward the freezer. I'm envisioning a bank of drawers left of the sink for baking supplies, mixing bowls, all the measuring tools and such. I would also like to incorporate a lowered marble rolling surface. What would you do? make the counter next to the oven lowered with a marble top, the area next to the sink, or would you get a pull out cart with a marble top and have it slide underneath an open cabinet?

Plllog, I've read and reread what you were suggesting, re: making a short wall on FR side and you said "I'd suggest a curved wall between the two lengths, and move the freezer next to the oven. Not a whole big redo." I can't wrap my head around what you mean by that? Can you elaborate?

lascatx, I didn't really want it to "look" like two kitchens, when you are in the space, it actually looks like "one" with a pantry off to the side? I know the oven throws things off, and I could actually LOSE it and sell it, but with the two tiny ovens in the range, I just feel more comfortable having that bigger one, I could have used three ovens this past Sunday!

An intereting story, while I was down, I watched HGTV a lot, and there was a Candice Olson show where she took the kitchen, opened it up, it had a dining nook off to the side, and she took that nook and put the ref, oven, and created pantry space as well. I liked that look, it doesn't mimick mine exactly, but it was very close. I recorded it and measured what she did as close as possible, and it's close. The only difference is that the nook she built was not backed up to a family room, but rather on a back house wall.

Rhome, that wall where it goes into the bedroom; I was going to leave that open, with the door to the br where I have it on the plan. It looks like that wall sticks out, BuT the cabinets I was going to use won't fit there as I have it drawn because that wall is load bearing, so the wall will actually end where the fridge ends. So, there will be a 5' wall facing the dining area. Haven't decided whether to put a built in there, or use it for wall space, and put a Hutch there or something? I'm going to work on the plan with a lttle more detail and post later tonight.

I would like to play with what some have suggested, but I can't picture what they mean. :;

Thanks so much!

Lowered counter: In my kitchen, I have the baking center (perimeter) counter lower for better access and sight line into the mixer. I have the stove run lowered for better access and vision into pots, as well as prep. I have the island lowered for rolling and kneading.

As to which would be best in your case, I'd say, of the 3 choices you gave, I'd choose the area next to the oven. I don't think it would be wrong, either, to do the counter by the freezer if you want a longer space.

However, neither of those spaces is very deep and you can't move around them, or have grandchildren gather around them. That's why I like the island surface, which is accessible from more sides and is wide and deep...and why I always liked the idea of a lowered work surface at the end of your island. So I would still consider that in addition to the area beside the oven.

I wouldn't do a cart that fits under a counter, because it obviously can't be any deeper than the counter in order to fit, and it only uses up space you could better utilize for storage.

I agree about the lowered counter next to the oven. It makes sense with the rest of the plan. In the drawings, the oven cabinet is deeper than the counter. Is that just because of the program, or is that real? If the latter, can you pull out the counter some? I get what Rhome is saying about the end of the island, and I agree that that was one of the good things you had in an earlier version, but given the rest of the plan, I think that's a bad place for it.

30" deep for baking really should be plenty for most things, and if you need more flex space with the kids, can't you use a table? Won't there be one in the FR? Table height is good for kids for baking, they can get around all sides, and it's good for all kinds of other projects too. There's really very little that must have marble to succeed. Like some very soft pastries. And that's more of a one at a time rolling thing, isn't it? Where the more limited space by the oven would work?

Don't worry about what I was specifically referring to in my previous post. I just meant that I can see how to close off the whole pantry area with a fairly minimal redo, so I'm not worried about the appearance of the pantry as you've drawn it in the current plan. It's too open for me, but not a deal killer. If there weren't a way to "fix" it, it would be a deal killer. I'm all for do your own thing, as long as it can be fixed by the next owner. My own kitchen is a love it or hate it design, but a new owner could just replace the counters and backsplash and make it pretty "normal" looking.

I was talking about two kitchens in terms of function, not appearance. The more independent they are for most functions, the more it works like two kitchens and the less it matters that things are spread out. So the "look" wasn't appearances so much as when you study them to see how you would work in them. Does that make sense?

As for baking, my baking area is not lowered but I work next to the ovens and across from that at the island, so one of those would be my spot. I probably work more at the counter next tot he island and use the island more for cooling, so my first thought it would be the space next to the ovens unless there's a reason not to do it there.

You have no idea how much I hate to say this but are you SURE you don't want to flip the freezer/ref to the short wall (with a side wall) and the oven to the longer wall? That way oven, sink, baking counter are all together. All of that counter could be deeper.

Thanks all, I would still like to put a small table, (I'm envisioning an antique 36" square, I think it would still fit, but it's something that we can add later if it works spacewise.

Bmore! WHY??? So, would you put the oven on the end down toward the kitchen proper, or would you put it down near the pantry? If I flipped them, there would be no landing space next to the frig/freezer. Does it not matter? The gaggenue IS a beautiful oven, but since it's not going to be used daily, I actually prefer it out of the way. I know most people don't cook like me, but the FIRST thing I taught my girls was the MOST important thing to learn was the TIMER on the oven! I don't look, don't peek, I really don't need to see what is going on! I don't think the oven light has EVER been used in my current oven. Call me dumb.
But, I'm LISTENING! Is it because you feel it's closer to the kitchen area? Or is it all about the oven?

Rhome- what height is your island? I was thinking 30" for good rolling, kid height? Would that be correct? If I lowered the sink run, I feel backache. :) I didn't think of the circumstance of being able to view mixer better, and even prep.

So, next to the oven it seems, although I don't think that is where the mixer will be stored, I was thinking over on the sink side for the mixer. Would it look weird to have the sink cabinet at 36" and the rest next to it at, say, 32"?

Thanks!

In the current design, the best landing space for the ref isn't the counter beside the freezer, it's the one beside the oven in a manner of speaking. It would still be the one beside the oven :)

The ref freezer pair function as a big ol' side by side. The optimal landing space would actually be behind you (pivot and set down and pivot back to the ref). With the counter beside the freezer, WHEN you're using the ref, you have to walk one or two steps and set stuff down and walk back. The same thing is true for the freezer because you need to walk around the open freezer door.

Again, everybody is different and I wouldn't push it, but that and the distance from the pantry is why I was thinking about a small cart and parking space for it during events when it wasn't needed.

I found the link below, but it might be good to practice with something that was the height it gives - like ask your spouse to cut some little blocks outta 1 x 4's - start with a 30" high table and start shimming under the legs until it feels right. I'm 5'7". My primo cutting height is about 38", my kneading height is about 34". My counters are set at 37.5". Those are not the height given by the formula.

Here is a link that might be useful: Counter height calculator

No reason to have landing space next to the fridge and freezer if you have it across the aisle. You'd have to go around the door, so across is much easier. So Bmore's idea has big pluses, as does keeping it like it is, and it's just a choice between. I prefer the path from stove to fridge as it is. If you're going to put an undercounter fridge by the range, then I'd do like Bmore suggested... and I'd keep the oven close to the kitchen.

30" is way too low for my back, even though I'm not that tall. (5' 3 1/2") I have mine at 33" and it works for all of us. I was afraid of having the prep sink too low in the island at 33", but prepping isn't the same as washing the dishes (duration not as long and not as much reaching to the bottom of the sink), so I don't feel any discomfort. It'd be a pain to try to wipe counters, etc. and run into the height change if you had the sink in a standard cab and the rest of the counter lower. Just my opinion.

I think the oven is much better off nearer the pantry. That's the correct direction: work ==> oven ==> cooling ==> exit, and that leaves the counters accessible if you're going to use them as a staging area for serving in the DR. (One of those pretend it's a butler's pantry ideas).

Personally, I prefer the fridge and freezer where you have them in the last layout because it's a direct path to the island, but that's not a biggie. Either way would work.

The way I found my optimal rolling height was by taking a big stack of folded fabric to my table and rolling different amounts of it with my favorite rolling pin until I got it just right. For me, it was 33", whereas I prefer to prep on 38" or even a little higher. When I was a kid, up until I got above 5'4" or 5'5", rolling on a board on the kitchen table was just fine.

A three foot square table should work well for making cut cookies or mini pizzas or whatever you expect to make with the kids, so they can all crowd around and do their thing. If it can take a leaf, so much the better. :)

BTW, it's much easier to use the mixer on a bit lower counter than normal, especially if you're short (or a kid).