Can we see more of the proposed plan, including the room with the fireplace so we can see the challenge you're having with it?

With the new plan is there a pantry, like you'd wanted?

I actually like the kitchen layout, itself. I'm not sure it offers the best in the way of prep space, but I like the general workpath, the dish storage area, and the island/table setup.

It is a big loss to give up that whole wall where the fridge used to be...Can you get part of it back? That would be where you could put a wall oven and maybe move the fridge to allow a better stove and prep area.

Would you consider a prep sink? I know you said dh is the only cook and likes to be left to his own space...But if you want the girls to grow up knowing how to cook for themselves and their families, they should be welcome and encouraged to join in. I was afraid from your description that I might see a one-cook kitchen, but it looks like it will be good for multiple workers, although not more than 1 at the stove at a time.

With the layout almost exactly as it is, the place for the wall oven would be at the end of the other run, adjacent to the exterior door.

It depends on how this door is used as to whether that is a good location. Perhaps the fridge could go there, and the oven stack in the fridge location, but that puts it at another doorway.

Tall verticals tend to end up at the corners of the kitchen so that they do not interrupt counter runs. This often puts them near points of entry, which bugs a lot of people.

However, having seen a few kitchens that interruped counterspace by placing ovens in the middle, and talked to the homeowners about how much they hate the layout, I would much rather end up with an oven, (which honestly is not kept open for more than a minute at a time, even in use), on a perimeter somewhere.

The common sense solution to having an oven near a circulation point is to just say "Watch out! I am opening the oven".

Thanks for the input.

rhome410: The layout does definitely have alot of good points. Dh definitely would want the girls to grow up more comfortable cooking then I am. (My in-laws are from Italy; I grew up in a completely different food culture - ala more Chef Boyardee then homemade pasta and sauce. I am, however, mostly reformed but am mostly the baker and local veggie preparer.) I hadn't thought of a prep sink at all.

I agree we are losing a lot losing all of the dining room wall. The sticky point is that the KD plan has the current doorway to the garage entrance hall moved over to where the fridge is currently, so I can't visualize how keeping some wall to place wall ovens would impact the countertop space, island size, and dining room size.

For visuals:

View from dining room:

The pantry would go in an area replacing the coat closet we have which you can see through the current doorway (white bifold doors)

KD's full plan, as given:

(Stairs were for a proposed future room above the garage which we bagged. Extra room (hallway)now to be used for coat closet, pantry accessible from right across new doorway, washer and dryer to remain too.)

As far as living area dilemma:

Room has sliders to left, to be replaced by windows. To right is french door to front den (to be office). Not much wall room . We'd like columns similiar to these to define the space:

palimpsest: We definitely played with putting the WO near the back door, but were concerned about how it affected counter length and esp. where we'd put dishes/glasses. I agree having a tall vertical elsewhere would look strange unless next to the fridge, but that leaves no room for counter near the cooktop.

I guess I am mostly ok with the plan, but my reservation does actually boil down to losing the whole dining room wall.

Thanks!

I would really hate the foul up the wonderful dish storage area with fridge or, especially, an oddly placed oven.

How large are the fireplace room and the dining room in the new plan? Could you give up 2 ft of the dining room to inset the oven on that wall? (I'm seeing it opening toward the aisle in front of the fridge...Handy to the stove and to the island.) It would close up the dining room entrance from one side. If you wanted to keep it symmetrical, you could put some storage or a command/message center at the other side of the doorway and the opening would still be about 4 ft wide, I think.

does the sink have to be centered on the back wall? that is a long wall for just the sink. Can it move further to the right so then you can place the cooktop on the back wall. Stack the ovens to the right of the refrigerator. I would then definitely go with a prep sink in the island.

malhgold is spot on.
Or at least, that was exactly what I was about to suggest before I got to the bottom of the thread... ;-)

Slide everything on the sink wall, including the window, to the right 18 inches.
Place the ovens next to the fridge and put the cooktop to the left of the sink - maybe with 36" or so in between?

I actually like the plan as it exists quite a bit. In a kitchen that size (when you want to include seating in particular), there are efficiencies to having a range rather than cooktop and separate ovens.

You have to determine if losing counter space and the overall adjacencies is worth it to have a wall oven. Is having something in the oven and on the cooktop going to be something that is problematic daily or weekly? Or is in only going to be a real problem monthly or seasonally?
If the way you use the kitchen dictates a wall oven, you may need to actually change the layout quite a bit to make it work. If a range seems to make sense and it is only esthetics driving the choice, you may have to chose function over your esthetic ideal. (And there are some very nice looking ranges out there)

Don't fall into the trap of the "must have" kitchen checklist of the 2000s. All of the elements of current kitchen design (separate ovens, islands, prep sinks, dual dishwashers, big pantries) are *great things to have, *in context and *if you have the room. Every kitchen needs the basic appliances first, a functional plan second, storage third, and then the wish list items if there is room and they don't compromize any of the basic requirements.

If that door wasn't in the kitchen there would be more room for the cooktop & sink on the back wall.

So, how long is that wall? It would be nice if we could see all the dimensions of the space as well as your KD's design (doors/walls/windows & distances b/w each).

The window doesn't look 5' in your current kitchen, so I'm assuming you're going to make it bigger...can it be moved as well? If it can, then you could move it and the sink to the right to make room for the cooktop & hood.

As I'm sure you've noticed, corner ranges take up a lot of room...at least 4' on each wall. So, right now you have a refrigerator & range crammed into that one wall with very little room b/w them b/c of the angled range. Then, as others have said, put the oven cabinet next to the refrigerator.

Idea 2:

Move the door to the other side of the short wall, leave the range & sink where they are, and put the oven cabinet there.

Idea 3:

Move the door to the other side of the short wall and leave the range & sink where they are. Next, put the oven cabinet where the refrigerator is now & move the refrigerator to where the door is now. On the left wall, you gain about 6" of space and if you also take that wall down, you gain another 4-1/2" for a total of 10" or so gained. That means you'll have 10" + whatever you have now (12"?) b/w the range & the ovens. It will open that space up a bit.

You will lose about 5" - 6" on the sink wall w/the refrigerator there...
.....36" ref + two 3/4" end panels to frame it = 37-1/2" = 3'1-1/2"; then
.....3'1-1/2" - 2'8" = 5-1/2" needed from the sink run.)

I think I like #3 best b/c it doesn't disrupt the nice setup for the sink, opens up the left wall somewhat, and leaves the corner range. While corner ranges do take up a lot of room, I do like the look if it's done well (see SharB's kitchen in the Finished Kitchens Blog (FKB) for an example of one done well.)

OK...something's missing from my post!!!!

It should have read...
The window doesn't look 5' in your current kitchen, so I'm assuming you're going to make it bigger...can it be moved as well? If it can, then you could move it and the sink to the right to make room for the cooktop & hood. Then, as others have said, put the oven cabinet next to the refrigerator.

As I'm sure you've noticed, corner ranges take up a lot of room...at least 4' on each wall. So, right now you have a refrigerator & range crammed into that one wall with very little room b/w them b/c of the angled range.
(I'm not sure what happened there!)