I don't understand. You say you don't want a seating area in kitchen, yet one is shown. Do you mean you are keeping that as is? My initial thought is to put cabinets running along the back (window) wall and start from there. Hopefully some layout experts will help. Good luck!

Am I correct in assuming that the above is the current kitchen layout? If your kitchen is not going to be eat-in, where do you plan on eating - where the kids toys are currently stored?

The layout posted is the original. I didn't want to influence anyone with my non-starter layouts :) so I didn't post those. The above layout shows 3 rooms. Kids' toy area (left), kitchen (center), current dining room (right). We will use the current dining room for all of our meals. I plan to have built-in to hold the kids' toys. The kids are not going to be little forever, soon they won't need a whole room for their toys so I am planning to confiscate that room now :)

We will need some additional measurements to be able to give you more than generalizations. Specifically, we need to know the measurements of each window/wall/doorway and the distances b/w each window/wall/doorway. This includes wall-to-wall or wall-to-doorway measurements across the kitchen.

What types & sizes of appliances are you considering?

It sounds like you're adding the nook/table area to the new kitchen, correct?

I would hesitate to take much out of the DR. It's not that wide to begin with, only about 11', I think that's a small as you should go. You need to have ample room for a decent size table, chairs, and traffic around the table & chairs. Do you have a china cabinet or other "extra" furniture for the DR?

Have you had a chance to read the "Layout Help" section of the "Read Me" thread?

Here is a link that might be useful: New To Kitchens? Posting Pics? Read Me!

think about an L shape with the current sink wall and window wall..when your raise the windows can the sink go under? use the small wall on the other side for pantry cabs/maybe coffee microwave station. What is the long term goal for the toy storage space though? If a return to it's dining room function is what you plan,then consideration of that opening might be wise. Reason is that you might seek a wider opening, centered in that wall, which would impact your construction now.

As stated, hard to be exact without measurements but off the top of my head I see something like and L. Lose the peninsula by the eating area. Think going from right to left of frig, small cab, sink, DW, another cab, range, cab, corner, and half wall with cabs/overhang for informal seating. I'm totally guessing, but maybe you'd need about a foot from the playroom area. My sunroom with our overhang eating leaves only about 9' in width but the way it is set up works. If you have built-ins along the west wall you could have a couple of club chairs in there for relaxing or a chaise like thing. What kind of view do you have out the windows in the play room area? The bottom of the kitchen where the current stove/frig is... pantry? Where do you plan food storage?

The kids' toy area could be turned into a beautiful pantry. Where does the other door into it lead to? If it is convenient, I would definitely consider making it a pantry with a beverage and snack area. That will also come in handy when you are cooking and don't want the kids rooting around in the kitchen space.

Just realized, you're not reclaiming the former DR as a DR, instead you're keeping the "nook" area as your DR. Any reclaiming is just space you're willing to take from the Playroom/DR.

Where is the family entrance? Is it south east in the drawing? If so, then are you sure you want to keep the current "DR" the forever DR? It just seems it would be nicer having the DR off the kitchen but not a straight shot from the front door (assuming the door is SE).

Do you have a drawing of the entire first floor? It doesn't have to be exactly to scale, just roughly. It will give us an idea of the flow of your home...

The comments we're making here are shots in the dark without enough information...

As to the pantry suggestion, even if you don't reclaim the playroom as a DR, I wouldn't take all or even most of the room for pantry, but you might consider a pantry for the kitchen + storage cabinets or some such for the children's toys & games as well as LR storage or similar. If your LR is small, it would free up any space you're taking up in that room for storage.

You could then convert part of that playroom, where you can see from the kitchen & LR, into a "study" area, complete with two desks (but not right next to each other) for computer use...homework or otherwise. Even into the teens you need to keep an eye on what they're doing on the computer and this will provide a natural place for it.

I have other ideas, but I need more info to know if they're something to explore further...

Looking forward to hearing more from you!

Thank you folks for looking at my sorry kitchen. Yes, the little nook (10 in deep) next to fridge is currently my one and only one pantry (feel bad for me now :)?). Kitchen's window will be replaced and raised, therefore it can be changed as we see fit. Buehl, as usual you are on the mark. The front entry door is SE of the current kitchen. The reason we chose the current DR to be the place for our meals is that the view that side is the prettiest and has the morning sun. We want to simplify the eating area, hence just one place to eat, no separate breakfast nook, no bar. Just a table that can be extended.
For the wall between the playroom & kitchen, I am thinking to blow that wall out and add the real estate to the kitchen. In the NW corner of the play room some bench and tables for kids' homework would be nice. The laundry room's entrance (SE of DR) will be closed (either laundry will be moved upstairs or new entrance from the hall). After the laundry room's door closed, a built-in will be going on that wall for china cabinet. The appliances going in will be standard size. All new appliances, except for the fridge. Fridge is almost new, 36 in french door, counter depth. The appliances I am planning are: fridge, stove (or induction cook top w/ 1 oven), 1 (may be 2) DW, microwave/oven combo, stand-alone vent hood.
Where I am stuck is that if I blow that kid's play/kitchen wall out, I don't know what configuration (shape) of the kitchen should be. How much room should I leave for the kids homework area. All I know is that the stove should be out of the hallway between DR & kids' play area. You don't know how many times the kids run across that hall and bump into me as I cook. Bad design.
Thanks for helping.

Here is the full floor. Are the measurements enough to go by?

Sorry, but you're still missing a lot of the measurements we need (Did you read the thread buehl linked? It's all there.) The squares help - I'm assuming 1 square = 1 foot - but we need accurate measurements. It's hard to tell whether a partial square is 4", 6" or 8" and that will make a difference.

We need measurements for the following (and likely more, these are the ones I noticed right off the bat):
Full width of space from far left kitchen wall to far right DR wall, along the window wall.
Span of wall from far left corner to kitchen window
Width of kitchen window
Span of wall between kitchen window and slider
Width of slider
Width of wall between slider and far right corner in DR
Width of existing sink wall (corner to doorway)
Width of doorway (is this an opening or is there an actual door? If the latter, we need to know which way the door swings and where the hinges are)
Width of wall from doorway to corner
Width of fridge/range wall, corner to corner
Depth of wall next to fridge
Width of pantry opening
Distance from window wall to pantry

And what is that thing along the DR wall? Is that a fireplace? How far out into the room does it extend? Does it have a raised hearth or is it floor level? If raised, how long is it? There is a number on your plan but it's too small for me to read.

Ooh, you have some great space there to work with, Stjamesb. No doubt you have good reasons for preferring that generous space on the right for dining. I'd pull the kitchen out of it entirely, just those few inches needed. Into the current kitchen and DRM you can fit virtually any kitchen you want, with space left over.

Aside from mentioning being able to place a play table for the children in the leftover, wherever it turns out to be, and what shape, what functions do you see the "leftover" space serving in the future? That it can be designed to serve so it won't be left over?

That's a corner over there to the left--corners are prime real estate in the home because of sunshine from 2 directions, even more if you enjoy looking out the windows. Would you like your kitchen over there or in the middle? If the kitchen, would you like a sitting area between it and the dining area?

If no for the kitchen, would your precious corner lend itself to development for sunroom functions eventually?An outwardly focused alternative to the living room? Sunrooms are often narrow, both because many evolved from porches and because that brings everything close to the windows. Or (or and/or), Susan Susanka says every home needs an "away room," close in, actually, but capable of being closed off for escaping the mob a bit. When the children no longer need a play table, might it serve that way?

Or? Whatever, future functions need to be defined in order to know how much to keep from being given over to the kitchen, which technically speaking doesn't necessarily need more square footage than it has now to be great, just a much better layout.

@lisa_a: I didn't include measurements for the details of the kitchen window wall because that window will be resized to whatever we see fit. Ditto for the wall between the play room & kitchen. That wall will be down. However, I included the current dimensions here, I hope I got everything that were on the list. Are the numbers to small to read?
@rosie: You know, you raised good question on what do to with the left over of the play room. The window on the left of the exterior wall get afternoon sun. That is street side. The kitchen windows and the one next to it get no sun (north side). I would think that the main kitchen will still be in between. I guess having to bring food across a sitting area into the DR is kind of awkward. For that left-over corner (some kind of booth, banquet), I am thinking the usage will progress as follow: kids' table, kids' homework, where I have my cuppa, easy chair for knitting, where people hang out while I cook, etc ..

Here is the original layout again with more measurements

Here is the original condition of the room right of the kitchen. View taken from the kitchen

Here is what I plan for that room, little closer so you can see what I plan for the laundry wall

Many thanks

Other than a straight "bump" for the people who were responding before, honestly, I don't understand what you're trying to do.

I don't know if the drawing helps at all but its just an assignment of space and a sketch of a floor plan - not THE floor plan it will eventually become, just enough to know its not impossible. I'm kinda back at this point - partly cause I don't understand and partly because the house has an enormous amount of space and an enormous amount of waste.

I guess too, I don't understand HOW your family uses this house currently, whether you guys are formal/informal, want open space or closure and what we can and can't do in making suggestions.

Something in all those walls is structural somewhere. It might be the living room wall - or it might be the dining room wall. If you have a basement, there might be clues down there = look at posts, beams, masonry columns or the direction of the floor joists.

I'm in the same boat as bmore. I don't understand what you are trying to do and it does seem like you have an awful lot of wasted space.

Remodels are expensive so try to consider how you'll use this space in the future - kids grow, toy storage will go by the wayside - so that you get the best return for your remodeling dollars. Also, at some point, you will move so you should reconfigure the space so that future buyers won't come in, scratch their heads and say "huh, what is this space for?" and see dollar signs in order to make it work for them. That will affect whether they make an offer and how much they offer. Maybe by the time you sell, it will be a buyer's market again and this won't matter as much but personally I wouldn't gamble on that possibility.

I understand what you are trying to do, but I don't think you should do it. Your kitchen is far from huge, but it really isn't that tiny and taking space away from the playroom will actually create a space too small to be usable for anyone that doesn't need a "playroom" and that will include you before you know it. So I suggest you keep that room in the same dimensions and put in non-permanent furniture and storage to suit your needs but allows for change.

In the kitchen, I would focus on the "L" shape with island that has been previously mentioned. Draw things out and see how they fit, then go from there.

On the fridge wall, I would put fridge, wall oven/combo oven, and a pantry. Take out the pantry behind the stairs, you'll want that extra space for walkway. I'd put the cooktop on the play room wall and the sink under the new window with DW to the right. Assume 25.5" depth of the "L" since counter tops are typically at least 1" deeper than the standard 24" cabinet. That should leave you enough for a small island with no overhang. It would just be a 24" cabinet with the 1.5" counter overhang on each side.

I'm not a guru, and I'm not good at drawing out plans. I hope you can picture what I am describing. This is a pretty standard floor plan, and at least a place to start and see how it would work for you before making the choice to knock down walls.

I also wanted to say that I like what you have planned for your dining area - the reduced fireplace surround and the built-in with more windows. I think it looks really nice.

To the folks that are confused, I am sorry that I can't be more clear. Sometime there are too many things floating around in my head and I just didn't think to mention them or I wander and confused people.

Lets me try again.
We are very informal people, we entertained infrequently. Occasionally we need large eating area. We like open space. Basically, what I am trying to fix are:
- my current kitchen layout is not working (bad location for stove & unused window wall).
- more pantry
- create area where the kids can play and do homework
- more built-in for china cabinet, etc ...
- kitchen is cut off from play room and living room

Here are the things that can't/shouldn't be changed:
- front door location
- stairs location
- wall between kitchen & living room (load bearing wall & duct work)

Here is what I came up with but didn't post because I want to give people freedom with ideas.

I addressed the issue with bad stove layout & I use the space in the middle of the kitchen. But my kitchen is still cut off from the living room, and play room. And I haven't got a proper pantry.

oh, I forgot to mention that the current kitchen doesn't have enough storage for my gadgets: bread machine, slow cooker, rice cooker, mixer ... they are used weekly. I don't want stuff on counter so they take up most of current cabinets.

Roughly, this uses the dining room as the kitchen, the kitchen as dining room and the space with the fireplace as a family room. Again, not a specific kitchen plan - just seeing that enough room exists.

The problem with keeping the kitchen where the kitchen was and moving the dining room to the family room (if I can call it that) it that people (likely including you) will want to go from the living room to eat in family room and the likely way to get there is through the kitchen.

So this provides informal dining with views out the back and potentially the side (some of what you've drawn increases the window area in the family room) but retains the family room.

In real life, it won't matter if you normally set up dining furniture in the family room instead and have a back seating/play area beside the kitchen - because you can always toss the furniture around for resale by switching what's in the two rooms. A buyer will be able to see how the space could be used. BUT, you will need to put a new doorway between the living room and the new dining area.

I do support the idea of not moving the kitchen at all. I wonder if you live in one of those places where you can do a tiny "addition" with a bumpout in the back wall of the existing space? Put cleanup or cooking in the bumped out section? Sort like this...

Stjamesb, a bumpout might be nice, perhaps even cantilevered from the house, like a Victorian bay, to avoid foundation expense.

As it is, you actually do have a lot of square footage in the existing kitchen. About 12 x 13 after pulling it back in line with the right wall of the staircase? That's a lot of room when you don't need to fit in a feeding area with seating.

So, for a whole-house synergy from this remodel, it does make sense to set the right dimension at the stair wall to add elegance to the new dining area and leave the left where it is for the reasons stated. Then creating something great within that space.

I'm wondering about the back end of the stair area: Assuming you remove that shallow closet, can any more inches of floor walking space be claimed from under the stairs? Just for examining your options, maybe even floor area that would need a dropped ceiling where the stairs haven't yet disappeared into the second floor? I ask because moving either one or both doorways down would, of course, allow longer counter(s) and moving the fridge over to the work side, leaving the left for lots of pantry.

@bmorepanic: thanks for the layouts. Your first layout has the openness that we've been looking for. I will play around with appliances layout.

The second layout has the advantage of
- no expense associated with modifying the load bearing wall
- We have room for bump out.

@rosie: I don't know what you mean by "it does make sense to set the right dimension at the stair wall to add elegance to the new dining area and leave the left where it is for the reasons stated". I hope you come back and explain.

The fridge can't be moved over at all because the basement stairs landing is right there. Thanks for thinking about it, though.

Thanks all.

Nice job, bmore! I really like that first plan you posted on Tuesday. Gives the OP the open space she wants, uses the space she has very well but doesn't limit future use of the space.

Yes, but laughing now you need a kitchen plan!

Stjames, just meant set the right kitchen boundary at the right boundary of the blue area shown in Bmore's diagram. The left boundary left in place. The blue area for the kitchen you'd like to keep in the middle.

Only, how about the understair area? Any chance of pulling the usable area farther south so you have an almost 13' dimension in the middle for your kitchen?

Stjamesb- I would have my dining area in front of the fireplace, too. If that's what you want, it can totally work and still be good for possible resale.

Take a plan like Bmore's top one and make the 'dining area' a small, cozy sitting area, maybe two chairs and an ottoman. Put the dining room table in front of the fireplace and have your built-in china cabinet on the wall. It can always be a curio cabinet if someone buys the house, down the road.

If your TV/family area is going to be in your front room, it will be great to have it so close to the kitchen. This is the way you want to use the house and I think it is much more inviting to have a nice meal, in front of the fire (ever watch Laura Calder's cooking show...that's what she has, too) than squished into a little nook.

If spaces are designed so that they're well laid out, relate to each other and have good flow...you can decide how you want to use them, depending on what works for you and your family. You still have a 'dining area' that will appeal to possible future buyers...but it can be your 'kitchen sitting area' while you enjoy eating by the fire :)

bmore, thanks again for putting together couple of layouts, so please don't take this as a criticism.

I like the first layout a lot because it has the openness that I am looking for. But, I am struggle a bit. If I use the area in front of the fireplace as dining area, now food has to be brought across the room in the middle. One possibility for the fridge placement is the area border left of the staircase.

If I use the areas as bmore originally intended then I have an informal dining area (which is fine by us), but what about future buyers who are looking for a "defined" dining room (as number of posters stated on my other thread "is dining room dead?") -- that thread is taking a life of its own :)

My husband supports the first layout because of its openness. His rationale about future buyers is that there will be always an inventory of houses in our area that have the traditional layout so if people wants "defined" dining room that they can have their pick and we will stand out as something more modern. Decent strategy? I will run this by realtor friend to see what she says. FWIW, our house was built in 1960s, in a very good school district with no new built, no lot left. The houses in our area are expensive enough that nobody who is sane would buy it and tear down.

I agree with those who have said that expanding into the DR/playroom is NOT a good idea because it will leave you with either a kitchen that ocupies the whole kitchen/playroom area and is thus too large to be useful for a family your size with your infrequent entertainment habits, or with a good kitchen and a tiny room (the former DR/playroom) that no one can use unless they just need a space for kids' toys or dog crates or bike storage or whatever.

I totally see the layout problems in your kitchen but I think your plan to raise the window, which lets you then put something useful along that wall, will solve your problems without you even having to touch that playroom/DR.

For instance, once that window is raised, you can put the sink and DW along that wall, put the range where the sink currently is, and then use that whole space that is now the range wall as a pantry and/or snack area (microwave/toaster/coffee maker). You could either leave the fridge there or put it up where the peninsula now is, to the right of the windows.

So just doing that--I mean raising the windows so cabinets/sink/DW can go there, and moving your range to the DR/playroom wall--would DRAMATICALLY improve your kitchen in so many ways! More storage, much better workspace, space for a pantry and a separate snack area... And it would dramatically improve it WITHOUT compromising the DR/playroom at all, AND it would be less expensive than ripping out a wall (especially since that wall may also be a load bearing wall).

I know - its a quandary that I'm not sure exactly how to solve either. The other thread dissolved into a discussion of whether eating together as a family is important. It was looking like there were just as many for having a dining room as not having a separate dining room.

Looking at the house, its a hard sell with dining in the "family room" - again because there is no way for company to get there. IF the dining room walls and entrances are preserved, people are likely to also complain of the small spaces.

Informal dining just means to me that the space is open to the kitchen and the family room. This is an active benefit to people who like folks in or around their kitchens while they work and half the people who entertain. The other half would rather have a designated room that is sacred to entertaining and (less and less) their kitchen closed off.

We're on the east coast - in a pokier house than yours. Formal dining room, living room, no family room, no attached garage, etc. In our house, the dividing wall between the kitchen and the dining room is structural and the structure is odd (1924 vintage). There was no way I was rippin' that down... In other house styles in my neighborhood, people have. Its just as nice a house with an informal dining room or with a formal dining room.

All of this is saying I think you prioritize what you want and try to get as much of it as you can out of your design (which also means your budget). Is resale your number one priority? Is openness? Is efficiency for quick cooking? Do you have to have table space in upper right corner or is a tiny table and a pair of chairs ok?

I'm sorry if I missed the numbers on the kids and their ages. Do you want flexibility to use the house in a different way as they grow (where will those lacrosse bat-scoop things or hockey sticks go?) and have their friends over. Are you going to be happy being in the same room with kids playing with a WII for hours?

Again, just as an example - these were my priorities in order of importance to us:
1. dh needs a place to sit down and work
2. we need more connection to outside
3. my kitchen is warm and friendly and not afraid of flour
4. we will both have an equal voice in styles

Those influenced the final kitchen in small and large ways. More importantly, I could judge how well any decision led to meeting those goals. That was really hard because I loved every discarded floor plan that didn't measure up.

To be concrete, with a small example - the previous kitchen had the ref in the "correct place" next to clean up along a rare bit of solid wall before the back door. I had always resented it, tho, because it blocked the view out the back door. In the new plan, the cleanup window is much larger and comes lower than the window it replaced and the ref moved to a new location next to the micro-pantry. The cleanup wall now feels like its very open to the outside and I don't growl at the refrigerator any more. Every morning, both of us pause right there and look out the window for a few moments. It's like living in a tree house.

Did people try to talk me out of it? Sure. Everyone here has a different viewpoint and different experiences with kitchens. The wacked thing is that their suggested position of the ref would have been right for them but it was wrong for us.

It's your job to figure out what's important to you. If you can communicate what's important to you, somebody here can help you figure out how to get it. It might be that it needs to be someone other than me.

Thank you for the appreciation.

Did people try to talk me out of it? Sure. Everyone here has a different viewpoint and different experiences with kitchens. The wacked thing is that their suggested position of the ref would have been right for them but it was wrong for us.

That is a great point. I know exactly what you mean. We had a very talented and experienced architect in to give us advice--we ended up not using him, or any architect--but while he gave us a couple of truly excellent ideas, he also was insistent on what, FOR US PERSONALLY, was a really stupid idea. And it's really important, when you're paying people thousands of bucks to make you a kitchen, to recognize YOUR OWN NEEDS. Of course you also have to balance them with practical reality--maybe you think the sink would look great in X place but X place is miles from the dish storage or right in the way of the cooking zone, so you've got to give that particular desire up--but you need to at least recognize your own family's quirks and needs, so that you know what you're promoting and what you're giving up when you make certain choices.

Our situation was this. In our kitchen, to the right of the range, there's a door to the side yard/back yard; the top half of the door is glass. The architect had the excellent idea of getting rid of that door, which would let us have almost four feet of prime counter space right between the range and the sink, which was a fantastic idea, particularly because it's a small kitchen and every bit of counter helps. He said that instead of having a kitchen door we should turn the large dining room window into a door to the back yard; that way we would have a bigger, much prettier door to the back yard than the one we currently have, AND we'd have extra counterspace, AND a dining room door to the yard would be great for entertaining... Great idea!

...but...

He was also SUPER insistent that we should not only get rid of the kitchen door, but totally wall it in and put upper cabinets there. Why was that a completely stupid idea for us? Because this door has a REALLY pretty view of the flower-covered hillside behind our neighbors' house, and that view is never going away because the hillside is much too steep to build on, and this window (or currently door) is also how I wave hello to my neighbors. AND if we walled that space in, then I would have no view whatsoever (unless a blank WALL counts as a view) while I'm cooking. Some people are fine with that; they look at their pretty tile backsplash and that's fine.

But I really like glancing up from the stove and seeing a flower-covered hillside! I really like being able to see the outdoors. But this architect was like, "You definitely need the storage. You should definitely put upper cabinets there." For me personally, the ability to own and store more plates is never ever going to trump the ability to look up while I'm cooking and see a hill covered with flowers. This is not a family of eight, we don't need that many plates! If we had a LOT of kids, or if we were privacy freaks who didn't want our neighbors to be able to see into our kitchen, or if I didn't care about the view from the stove, he would've been absolutely right. But FOR US, he was absolutely wrong, despite the fact that he's an excellent architect who specializes in remodels that maintain the character of older homes like ours.

This is why the Sweeby test is so important. You need to really lay out and be conscious of what your and your family's needs and wants are. Otherwise you'll end up with, at best, a generic kitchen that looks nice and is functional but doesn't actually let your family live how your family wants to live.

I've been confused for some time. Where's the quandary in the original layout of
* big room to the right (to be used for dining but flexible),
* smaller room to the left (to be used for family activities but flexible),
* kitchen kept adjacent to the dining area on the right and already fortuitously occupying a good space in the middle?

The only question I see is whether she does what she originally wanted by taking some space from the left. The only quandary I see is how to gracefully remedy the kitchen's being "cut off" from the living room if it stays where it is in the middle and, with that, which kitchen layout would be best for her and her family, including more pantry/storage. A classic "layout gurus" problem. As Ideagirl2 says, a good layout would yield a dramatically improved kitchen right where she needs it to be.

BTW, Ideagirl, congrats on dumping that architect. Wonder how many happy outcomes he's killed with that attitude? I saw the same thing a number of times as an appraiser, and got to listen to wistful "I wanteds" and "I hoped to haves" a number of times--always women as I recall...

@rosie - like I said everyone is different. I keep seeing the op talk about resale. I think about things in this order
(1) Op has a concern about resale
(2) Op wants a better kitchen with things that sound like they need more space than the kitchen has
(3) Op wants that enough to subtract space from existing dining room for a larger kitchen.
(4) Op and/or spouse likes open space.

I can't see a way to have a big, open kitchen in the existing kitchen space (altho I think it can be a workable kitchen) and I think it will be a hard-to-sell house if the original dining room is smaller - not because of formal/informal dining, but because the primary way to get to the proposed single dining area (that takes over the family room) from the living room is to walk through the kitchen first. Plus the family room no longer exists because it's become a dining space with built-in buffet and china storage - a bigger resale negative I'll bet. And the kitchen is still a main hallway in the house.

So, I'm back to I dunna understand what to prioritize. Plus I do understand that the op may want to do something I would never contemplate - making me not a good person to suggestion anything more.

bmore got what I am thinking. The priorities for us, in the order of importance are:
1. better layout
2. open space

... and at a distant, resale. Our horizon is 15 years but who know where life lead us.

Right now, underneath the kitchen window we have a small stand-alone cabinet so I do know that keeping existing foot print will not give me much more storage that I currently have. People with similar layout as ours, either built a large addition off of the kitchen or chose to keep pantry and extra stuff in the basement.

bmore, I am curious with some of the things you've said:
1. people have to walk through kitchen to dining area. Do people really get bother by it? I don't mean the guests.
2. why would not having a family room on the first floor be such a negative thing? It I can carve out some away room on the second floor then would that work? Why would anyone have a formal living room and a family room right next to each other?
For us, the two things are not deal breaker but since we know we are quite unorthodox, I am just curious if many find they are deal breakers.

I grew up in a house with a single dining area and a single sitting area. So the idea of consolidate rooms made sense to me. My dh grew up in a house with formal LR, DR, den, eat in kitchen, etc ... and they admit that they only use 1/2 of the first floor. Even my MIL felt it is such a waste of space. So dh & I are on same wavelength with this.

This so so hard. We are going to spend some serious hard-earned dough and we are scare that we make the wrong decisions.
To all who had replied to this thread, thank you!

Something that may be a little different...have you thought about opening up the space, between the current dining room and kitchen...maybe with a half wall? If necessary, could you extend the kitchen into the family room, maybe along the back wall?

If you did this, you could have the sink, on the counter, overlooking the dining room. This would still give you your 'separate' dining room (for resale) but would open the space up to the kitchen. I think some stools on the other side of the counter (to talk with someone working at the sink) and maybe a banquette, for informal dining or play/craft area for the kids. Put the range (between windows) on the outside wall, with the fridge on the end. You could still have room for a slider/french doors, at the end to access the backyard. This would open the kitchen up to the 'now' family room...your soon to be dining room.

Where the fridge/range are now (wall to living room/entry) you could have a pantry and maybe double ovens. Or, you could put the fridge here, with a microwave and have a great snack/beverage area. Your choice :)

I'm still confused--not that people are disregarding StJames' wishes but the rationale itself. A specific china storage built-in might not be ideal for a family room, but that large room to the right would still make a good family room for those who wanted to use it that way. If it's an issue, couldn't they just stand the cabinets there and not screw them to the wall?

Why people "must" have FRMs, I sure don't know, StJames. Maybe they don't either. A cozy upper-floor snuggling in room is a favorite for a lot of people. We chose to have a biggish living room on the south side of the house and a small sitting room off the kitchen--like you plan. But, again, using that as a sitting/play area does in no way take away from an alternate function as a dining room. Which is why I suggested trying not to take away from this well-sized and well-proportioned room.

I still also don't understand the notion that you have to walk through the kitchen to get to either side room. You don't. A circular traffic pattern does limit work space somewhat in the kitchen, for sure, but the synergistic gains for all spaces compensate many times over. There are no uninviting DEAD-end spaces this way. Dead-ends are good for bedrooms and baths, not so good for spaces you hope will be vibrantly active centers of family living. I sacrificed significantly to get a circular flow around the first floor, and I do feel that big sacrifice (giving us a little 10'-wide sitting room), but boy are we glad we went went this way. Even though it's worthless as a potential dining room and very inadequate as a potential main floor bedroom (the powder room has a secret shower in case one of us can't get up the stairs someday). Nevertheless, well worth it.

StJames, you've been living in this house so have already found that both side rooms work well for you as you plan to use them. The problem is with a kitchen area in the middle, but you also really want the kitchen to be next to where you dine. Before major sacrifice of a good room to get more space for a center kitchen, it still seems that a real effort to make a good kitchen in that space should be made.

Did your neighbors build in lots of full-extension drawers and still end up with what you consider inadequate kitchens? They are much more efficient storage, and if they didn't that would make a real difference.

You have tons of unused space in the middle. Maybe the answer isn't a simple U.

You never answered my question about getting floor space currently lost to the head-clearance area of the stairwell. If you could gain even an additional 12" of length for the kitchen from there, it would make a really big difference.

But--don't even bother being scared at this point. Turning all possibilities over isn't costing you anything and will eventually pay off big. That's, of course, how you get what you want.

Wow - just now found this again. I'm thinking we're just having a conversation.

Do not ask me to explain family room attractions or suburbs. I have no real experience of them. Real estate friends plus just hearing people talk have convinced me that the family room is expected out there.

It might have something to do with not wanting television or game watching parties in the living room. It may also have something to do with providing a place for children or teens but still have an adult retreat.

I have some vague memories of burbs from being a very young child in the burb of a small town, but since have been really rural or really city. At that time, the closest anybody got to a family room was maybe a sofa in the dinette area.

I am used to houses that have living room, dining room, kitchen with no eat-in space and that's it. So I am in sympathy with not having so many different rooms that all do the same thing.

Walking through the kitchen is a big deal to lots of people when its literally through the kitchen. I think its for two reasons - to some people, walking guests through the detritus of meal creation isn't the most attractive thing in the world to see AND that people will circulate - tying up the kitchen at perhaps critical points. Circulation issues will happen every day, not just with parties. They will intensify as children grow.

Having the kitchen open to other areas and having part of it be a hallway are two different things. As is having the kitchen in or adjacent to a circular pathway.

Our kitchen is in a circular pathway - its saved from issues because all of the aisles are wide, the back door lines up with one of the two dining room doorways and the multiple doorways to the dining room can be used to go around any large obstruction. Our demographic is childless couple in a neighborhood of mostly couples - maybe one in five have minor children - so the odds are good.

I think the room's ability to still be a family room is directly impacted by installation of those cabinets, the breakfast bar functions. They are kitchen things and not furniture. Its not considered "safe" to just sit the base boxes there (big tipping hazard) plus a countertop company might not agree to warranty its product without the cabinets attached to the wall.

If the "dining" functions are done with furniture, it would be possible to re-stage the house for sale. Also true of shelves and desk combos.

I don't think what the poster wants to do (have informal to semi-formal dining in the back of the house) is wrong per se or even that unconventional. It just leads to two-three floor planning issues - the kitchen ain't as big as it perhaps needs to be and that particular position of the new dining area without moving the kitchen will cause people to use the kitchen as a hallway.

Then there is storage. The op is thinking remote storage by building it into the family room and maybe extending a base run all the way to the sliding door. That impacts the amount of space available for dining and I wonder if the view will still be seen. There's also the fireplace to stay away from, but yet make sense of in the design.

So I think remoting the storage makes the kitchen as hallway thing worse. The current kitchen area is about 13 x 13. There is not enough space to have two banks of cabinets and an island (the ref run and a new run at the window). 13 feet minus 4.25 feet total for both side runs (should be a little more) plus 42" aisles yields an island countertop 1-3/4 feet wide over 18" deep cabinets. But the "hallway" side likely should be wider.

Part of why I recommended perhaps someone else answer is because I would move the kitchen into the family room space inna heartbeat - because I wanted the space and also wanted the view while cooking/cleaning as we seem to spend more time together doing that than eating (plus the whole darkness thing when the view inconveniently vanishes).

I'd want that because it would produce a better life - exactly the same thing that the poster wants. I don't see how to get that with the dining room in the upper right corner - which is the other reason.

It'd be interesting to know what StJames has come up with so far to achieve her top priorities of

"1. better layout
2. open space."