You know, your DR table sounds a lot like my grandmother's table. My mother has it now. But it folds up just like you said (my mother has it in front of a window) with the drop down ends and many leafs to go from a small table to a quite long table! It also has the 4 legs + 2!

Anyway, I think you could probably still make it work if you have the drop down end raised. The legs wouldn't be right next to the bench, they would be under the "stationary" part...assuming your table is the same as my grandmother's.

From your reaction, I take it you like the idea...

I don't mind the idea of the bench. Its definitely a possibility. DH and I are also talking about storing the set for a few years to see what happens in life. Its hard... its a shame to waste space trying to keep the kitchen side small enough to make room for the DR set if we are only going to move it (the DR set) into the playroom later, then be left with a lot of space that we will wish had more "kitchen" in it. Thats where we are trying to go now... a plan that can grow along with us and our needs, without wasting money on things we'll need to remove later, or on a layout we will need to change later. KWIM?

I like so many ideas you all have shared...

-the bench seating on one side of the table
-the 30 inch counters
-the pass-through window
-the message center
-keeping the two windows instead of the added construction of trading two for one
-getting a separate hood and separate microwave
-I like the range on the mudroom wall because we may still be able to vent the hood outside that way (we could run ductwork under the drop ceiling that is out in the mudroom, a whole nother topic)
-the pantry/fridge/micro on the wall next to the foyer doorway

Those are just some that I remember off the top of my head.

Whew - I'm so glad we didn't order those cabs last week!

BTW...If the back side is against the back wall, the bench would have to be about 62" to allow it to be used for all table lengths (probably have about 12" in on each end that wouldn't need a bench). I think that's what Houseful is doing. I thought maybe just one end could be done that way, but the upper left corner is only 36" wide.

Keep in mind also, that we have a 54" china cabinet to add to the mix!

I'm curious...is your DH as amazed as mine was that so many people were willing to help you out w/this? He couldn't believe it..."people we don't even know"...he said!

Maybe none of us have met, but we all have this big thing in common (kitchen remodel or interest in) that it's almost "friendship at first write"!

Yes, DH and I are *both* amazed and extremely grateful. This has been a huge, tremendous help. Amazing... All of this advice is worth a mint, and to think its been free...

Beuhl and Celtic - are either of you CKD, or just naturally clever and gifted at design?

I just thought of another reason I do not like sinks in islands: lack of nearby uppers for the dishes that come out of the sink or DW.

Not me! Just having fun! I learned a lot when several people (including CelticMoon) helped me with my design recently. I had a tough kitchen also b/c it is only 11' wide, has a bay that cuts my outside wall in half, and have a DH with a couple of tough "must haves/don't wants".

Anyway...here's my layout w/the China Cabinet. It closes off 54" b/w the kitchen and dining area, but not the rest.

The bench is centered under the existing windows with only a couple of inches of overlap under each. I wasn't sure about the depth of the bench so I measured one of my DR chairs. The seat is approx 15" deep. So I put a 15" deep seat + 3" or so for a padded back. When in use, the table will actually be a little closer to the wall than I show here.

I'm assuming that you will not use the table at the max length too often so I think the clearances should work.

I would have liked to have had another 3 to 6 inches b/w the table and the peninsula & china cab...oh well. (One of those compromises I mentioned earlier!)

I also put a 30" wide, 12" deep pantry cabinet behind the china cabinet and then a 30" wide x 30" deep drawer base.

To add more cabinet space, I also added a glass cabinet over the drawer base that opens on both sides. Perhaps glasses or dishes could go there. I made it glass so it wouldn't block off too much more of the dining area. But, this cabinet is optional since....

On the FR wall I added a 24" dish hutch with upper cabs that could go to the counter--if you can afford to lose the workspace...I'm not sure you can. If not, then it could be a 24" base/upper cabinet.

Next to the dish hutch, I put an 18" pantry since I thought the 30" across the way might be too small. If you don't need it, you might consider an extending the base/upper next to it to give yourself more cab & counterspace. Although, if you get additional counterspace here you might be able to do that dish hutch...only in the corner.

I put seating in front of the sink and in the FR. I think you will want some bar/counter seating somewhere. I forgot to note on the layout that the 15" or 18" counter is a raised counter to hide the kitchen clutter/dishes from the FR.

There are also 6" open shelves flanking the opening...for a bit of interest.

The Utility cabinet was moved to the dining area in that alcove. I made it 24" wide x 15" deep.

If you decide to put the table & china cabinet in storage it will allow you to go back to one of the earlier layouts...with additional modifications if you wish...either island or peninsula will work then. But remember you will always have somewhat of an issue w/table clearances...

You could use dish drawers instead. Or how about that dish hutch I mentioned?

Here it is with upper/lower cabs to the left of the sink and then a 21" dish hutch. There are also upper/lower cabs to the right of the sink.

Beuhl - thank you again for these new designs. I've been looking at them all morning with DH.

I think that we've come to ONE decision. We are going to store the china cab and table and not try to incorporate them into the kitchen/dining space right now. We are going to use the laminate table with bench seating and chairs in the dining side of the kitchen (the new "swapped" DR, of course.) When the kids get older, we will probably move the DR into the current "playroom" and who knows... maybe put a desk or a couple comfy chairs and coffee table over on the window side of the kitchen.

So now that thats out of the way, and I've looked at all these design ideas and slept on it for a day... the other things I know I want are:

--message center
--breakfast bar
island or penninsula? still not sure
--leaning towards not having a pass-through at the window... yesterday it seemed like a good idea, today I'm feeling like its not. (what else can you do over a window-less sink? Can you put cabinets over a sink?)
--separate micro and hood
--range on mudroom wall so we can vent outside

I like the messagecenter/fridge/micro wall you had in one of your designs that is opposite the penninsula. I also like the dish hutch idea.

How much space is needed inside a U shaped kitchen? I'm just wondering if I can possibly have that U shape design, and the stools on the side of the penninsula, and the table/bench/chairs (laminate size 40X58)?

I might draw up some pics of my own, and of course, post them for all of your criticism.

Are there any posts on window pass-throughs that anyone knows about? I hate to clutter up the forum with a redundant post, but I'd love to hear from people about them. I tried searching and didn't come up with anything?

Well, here is another bad drawing.

But, I have my main elements and traffic patterns covered, I think. I have a question mark where I am not sure what to plug in. I also and concerned about upper cabinets and how they relate to the rest of the design. For example, where will I keep all the day to day dishes (I would like those in uppers) and will my pantry storage, whether it be by the micro or the fridge, be too far from prep/range/sink?

Also, there is 4'9" between the "U" shape. Is that enough room?

Any thoughts?

I feel like I am missing many details, but I just need something to jump off from.

{{gwi:1969721}}

Your design is coming along.

To minimize future modifications, I would put as much room in the kitchen portion as possible. I would put a minimum of 66" b/w the legs of the "U". You want plenty of workspace around the range, especially since it's so close to the sink.

I would also either extend the depth of all the counters on the sink wall to 30" or bump the sink out. In my current kitchen we have a 33" double bowl sink w/standard 24" deep countertops. There's not much room behind the sink for cleaning or placing things. If you had a cooktop I would suggest the same thing--but you have a standard range that fits perfectly w/24" deep counters.

I would make the counters on the peninsula side the standard 24" + 15" overhang. There really isn't any reason for a deeper work area since you will have access to the total expanse if a much larger area is needed (like baking Christmas cookies!).

Unless you have somewhere else nearby to store your broom, dustpan, etc., I think you need a utility cabinet. It could be the "?" next to the refrigerator.

The other "?" could be...
* a nice glass front cabinet OR
* an appliance garage...have the upper cabinet go to the counter and store some of your small appliances there OR
* a coffee/tea bar OR
* a general snack area; you could keep the snacks the kids are allowed to have in drawer there along with paper cups, napkins, etc.
[Hmmm...I'm wishing now that I had something similar...I wonder if it's too late to add to my plan??]

BTW...I am a little concerned about the small amount of counterspace b/w the sink and refrigerator...especially if someone is working at the sink. The refrigerator is sharing it's landing space with the workspace of the sink; there should probably be at at least 36" of counterspace if it's to double as both cleanup area and landing space. If you make the "?" a 12" pull-out utility cabinet, then you could add at least 6" to the counterspace.

Another possible issue is that the refrigerator will be opening into a doorway... It's a large doorway so it may not be much of a problem, but I wanted to make you are aware of it. Although, if the refrigerator has a single 36" door it may still be a problem. The Playroom/DR doorway appears to be 5'6" in this layout--are you expanding it from the current 4'10"? If so, there's probably enough room; but if not, I think it might be tight.

BTW...if you're planning on hanging pendants from the support beam, be careful that they don't hang down too low--you wouldn't want the people sitting at the peninsula to bump their heads when seated or standing up!

Oooooo, 4'9" is awful tight inside that U. I lived with a 4'2" U for a while in my first house and it really was a challenge. Especially if there is more than one cook. And those cute little ones will be big sized before you know it. But if you widen the U, I'm not keen on the penninsula seating and table seating (bench or no) and passage. Not enough space for all that.

Is the DR for eating, kitchen end for play, off the table?

Is the island not in contention? (Sniff)

OK, OK, I'll just pick up the shattered pieces of my life and go on....

The island is still a possibility, but I like the idea of the peninsula better. It seems like it would provide a bigger worktop. I haven't totally explored the island idea like I have the peninsula. Maybe I should give that more thought. Why is it that you need so much less room around an island than in between the U?

Also, we aren't sure about the switching idea (between DR and side of kitchen.) The current way of using that extra room (DR/playroom) seems to be working so well for us.

I am feeling very overwhelmed with all this sorting out present needs, future needs, budget limitations, etc. I am starting to get really burned out and frustrated. I am feeling like leaving it the way it is, actually. Is this a normal side effect of kitchen remodeling?? I feel like I have to start over or something? How do I boil this all down so I can get my head around it? Its sooo much to think about.

(Of course, I'm joking about leaving it the way is. Well... partly. I really mean putting the remodel off)

If you're not on a tight schedule, then I suggest putting it away for a few days...maybe even a couple of weeks. Then, come back and look at it. You will have a clearer head and perhaps be able to look at each option more serenely. Often when I put things aside for a while my subconscious works on it and when I come back to it it's not as difficult to make a decision.

So....kick back and spend some time with your children and think about other things for a few days!

Good luck...and we'll be here if/when you need us again!

Very, very normal to get dizzy from going in circles. Sometimes good to take a complete break and just force yourself to leave it alone for a few days. That can be hard, so you could also focus on a very different task. Like maybe picking your 10 favorite kitchens from the FKB over a cup of tea! Or just taking note of what grabs your eye in terms of colors, finishes, features, etc. You will value those thoughts later!

Another very different sooner or later task is to gather up big boxes and mock up the size of aisles and work spaces you are considering. Play with friends' kitchens and explore store displays. Do imaginary meals and check the "fit". Some people really want expansive work spaces and aisles, others are very content with less.

And a third sooner or later task is to inventory all your kitchen stuff so you know your exact storage needs when you get to planning the specific cabinets.

Any of the above = time well spent and can help clear your head.

Oh, and why the island may be less of a space jam is because your penninsula forces the counter seating to back up to the table seating. With the island, counter seating runs longways and faces the mudroom wall. No butt to butt competition for space.

The deceptive thing about a penninsula, besides being hemmed in (which is sometimes good and sometimes bad), is that it introduces another corner. Corner counter and storage does not have the same "value" because of accessibility issues. Under counter storage just isn't as functional in a corner. And it is hard to work on the corner counter bit where you can't stand in front. And speaking of standing, you lose the "footprint" space for a second person to share that corner counter real estate. For all these reasons, space analysts generally agree to "count" corner counter and cabinets as half the surface and storage inches. Sort of a 50% discount in value because of the corner.

I'm explaining all this because you said the penninsula "seems like it would provide a bigger worktop". Not necessarily.

Take a break and enjoy your family, enjoy the fall weather, enjoy the slideshow. It does take a while to figure all this out.

Here is a link that might be useful: finished kitchens slideshow

Beuhl - I keep forgetting to tell you that the reason I keep leaving out the utility area is because I have that in my basement, inside the doorway. It isn't the "ideal" size, but it works fine, and will get better now that we can change the door from swinging IN to either swinging out or double doors.

Celtic - thanks for the slide show. I have looked through the FKB before, but not with my new "ideas" in mind, so I will definitely do that.

You are both correct - I think I need a break, and Celtic - you really made a lot of sense about the island vs. peninsula.

I hope this isn't overload, since I understand your being overwhelmed and a bit frustrated at the moment. But this is what I see when I look at your peninsula plan vs Celtic's last island plan: In hers a see elbow room, flexibility, and options for work areas. I see much more usable counter space, and in valuable locations, plus the island, which has almost as much usable space as your peninsula. You'd be surprised, I think, at what that island space, free and accessible from all sides, can do for you.

I am hearing the same issue we started with...You really have a quest for that workspace because of what you have now, which is so completely understandable (ask Buehl's dh ;-D )...But getting it where you need it/where it's convenient is SO important. We had a smallish kitchen in our last house. It actually had a good amount of counter space, but some of it was dusty and a junk collector, because it wasn't convenient to the work area, while smaller sections were crowded and fought over because they were close to the sink, range, and fridge. We were all standing and moving at one end of the room.

Celtic's last plan has work areas close to those things, leaving the island free for the big projects. Your last plan has very little workspace within the work zone, leaving only the peninsula for everything. If you ever want helpers in the kitchen, or want to encourage your children to join you to learn to cook and bake, the peninsula plan will discourage it, just because it forces everyone into one standing space. If you are at the range, you are butt-to-butt, elbows-hitting-elbows with anyone working at the sink or the peninsula...and there will be traffic congestion with no alternate routes. On Celtic's plan I can see you at the range and a prep area to the side of it, one child loading or unloading the dishwasher, or perhaps making a salad between the fridge and sink, and someone else rolling out bread or pie dough on the island...all chatting and comfortable, free to move where they need to without squeezing past or running into the others.

When I look at the peninsula plan, I see a small, tight kitchen. When I look at the island plan, I think it looks roomy and big. I know there are peninsula people and island people, and maybe you're just a peninsula person. If so, that's perfectly OK, but I didn't want you to miss some of the differences I see, positive and negative, looking at the plans, side-by-side. I'm a 2nd guesser, and work to prevent that for myself and for others! After doing this big project, you want no regrets...You'll want to have considered your options fully.

I have kids, ages 3-19, and I love having them in the kitchen with me, not just on the edge looking in. My kids love to work with me, or just be around me to chat. We have some of our best talks in there as I work. Different personalities look for different things...Some kids like to have that counter to sit behind and keep their own space, while some want to be on top of me. I want to be able to welcome the kids with both communication styles, and for us, the island plan would work best to accommodate both.

I didn't mean this to get so long-winded! Sorry. I just hope it helps and doesn't just add to the confusion. This should be a fun process, so take the breaks you need to to keep it that way. After all, you're getting a new kitchen! Yay! :-)

Just an idea about the island... would an irregular shape help with the dining side's space, do you think?

Here is an example of what I mean.

{{gwi:1969722}}

I really like this type of island....I even tried to put one like it in my kitchen but my kitchen was too narrow. One thing, these islands take up more floor space than you realize. I would try to work out the measurements before I got too attached to it.... NewHomeBuilder has one that's really nice. I've included two links to threads related to her kitchen & island (I asked her for dimensions). One note, NewHomeBuilder's island is not perfectly symmetrical, as you will see in the dimensions thread.

Thread containing Newhomebuilder's Pictures

Thread: NewHomeBuilder--Dimensions of Island

Looks like that picture layout is eating roughly a 12 x 12 space not counting the stool butts or outside passage around that island. Would leave you only 7 feet for the dining area and butts and passage.

Hey, I thought you were off doing head clearing, non kitchen activities......

Ok... I'm back from my little break, and have made a decision along with DH on a layout. It is pretty much like your design, Celtic, your 2nd one. Here is a snap of an IKEA graphic I made up.

{{gwi:1969723}}

It is out of scale, but it just gives general layout.

I know that NKBA says you need 36" in walkways and 42" in workways. I have questions about the island: I pretty much gave up on the irregular idea. I couldn't seem to make it work without it seeming tiny. If anyone has any ideas, share away. Otherwise, I'll be going with a rectangle. Now, does the distance between the back of the stools and china cabinet count as a walkway or a workway? How does one determine the distances needed behind barstools? Could I cheat all around the island and go with 39"? Or, could I cheat by not giving 24 inches for each barstool and go to 22? That way the island could be a little smaller. I really wanted 3 seats on one side of the island, but am wondering if I should make it 2 on one side and 1 on an adjacent side (like Celtics first drawing) I prefer the 3 in a row, but if it cannot be possible due to space, I would do it the other way.

Also, Celtic, because I'm desperate for inches all around, I decided not to go with 30" deep cabs. I really wanted them, but I need those inches more. I am still hoping for a message center in our funny corner, but haven't chosen anything specific to use there. I need to look at other peoples message centers.

Also - this may seem like I am jumping the gun, but I am also wondering about staggering the cabinets. Our ceilings are somewhat low (7'10") and I wasn't sure how that would work with staggering. That leaves room to go with 36" and 30" cabs and staggering. Does that look ok with ceilings that height? I have the support beam to contend with, so I thought staggering would work well for that. That way we can use a 30" where the beam is.

I'm also still at a loss with the micro vs. microhood thing. Right now, the microhood is looking pretty good since I can't find a place for a separate one. Perhaps next to the range on the right?

Any criticism is welcome! I really want to see this kitchen happen. We told our cabinet maker we ran into structure issues and will be bringing a new "plan" in a few weeks.

Well anyways... fire away!

I gotta get to a wedding so I can't look at it in depth. First glance it looks good.

Guidelines, for what they are worth, are about traffic. They combine pathway with butt space and can specify as much as 5 feet of a walkway with seating. Optimal with no prospect of ANY "excuse me" ever. But most people can't and don't go quite that big. Similarly the 42 work space "rule" is partly in considration of appliances opening. If you plan it right, that is less of an issue - like how your fridge is opening into the aisle. A mockup will really help. Some people are absolutely fine with 36 work aisles and some want 48 to be happy. I'f urge you again to stalk friends' kitchens and displays with a tape measure to decide what is right for you.

I was thinking the 30 depth counter could go to gain you the inches. With the fridge at the end it matters less.

You could curve the counter a bit on the seating side of the island. Lets you get the 24 per person in a shorter island and the visual contact is a bit better.

Gotta go

PS SIL Barrelhouse just did a similar shallow pantry. Check that thread for pix and ideas.

Just wanted to add a note: That is my china cabinet that you see up against the wall at the bottom. I thought maybe with this design there would be room for it.

Celtic - great thought curving the island counter... thanks.

About mockups... we did a lot of that this weekend. We actually moved the fridge into that spot in the diagram, and we like the new accessibility of it. You can see it from the front door, and we aren't sure about that, but I think it looks odd to us because its new. Also, we moved our current 3X4 peninsula into the center of the room and moved our portable dishwasher around it to create mock counters and we played with the walkway measurement and I really think we could make 39" work. We were thinking that with an island, if someone is in your way, you can always go around the other way - a nice think about islands rather than peninsulas. So, we have been experimenting. :)

I'm glad you all are here - all of this feedback is just amazing...

Thanks again.

Looked back and see the china is 17 inches deep, right? Stove run (24) + aisle (39)+ island with overhang (24 + 15) + aisle (39) + china (17) = 158. Couple inches short. 39 with traffic AND seating may be pushing it.

You could rework the island to have one cabinet face the sink and wrap the seating around the part furthest from the work zone. Say it was 33 by 57. Use a 33 cabinet facing the sink, then a more shallow base cabinet 18 x 18 facing the range (?open shelves for pots and pans?). Curve the one counter corner nearest the basement door and seat one facing the range, one facing the sink and one on the curve.

Or cheat the overhang inches. The rule is 15 but folks, especially shorter leg folks, can be OK with less. Measure and discover what is good for you in your situation.

Or try the china and a tight aisle for now, knowing the china may migrate to the DR eventually and you can add a more shallow unit later.

Only other thought is to slide the range to the right and stretch your prime counter real estate between range and sink.

It is coming along...

If it will fit, you could increase the width of the pantry cabinet on the end of the range run and put a MW shelf in the middle at your preferred height.

I agree w/CelticMoon on island clearance. I don't think you will be able to put the China Cabinet there and have seating at the island.

You're getting close!

Celtic - I think I was planning on 36 for my walkway behind the chairs and china because I won't actually be "working" at the china cabinet. (I don't use it often. Just for those 3 special holiday dinners) So, if anyone is sitting there and I decide to get into the china, then I'll just tell them to move their butts! :)

Or, not. I'm not totally sure about the china cab being there myself. Might have to be one of those things I try out, knowing it will change someday in the future like Celtic said.

I will look at the micro idea between the oven and the pantry.

Any thoughts about staggering the cabinet heights? I would love to just go to the ceiling with all of the cabs, but I have that support beam to contend with and I don't want it to look like its growing out of the cabinets.

I think 39" work aisles would be fine, and cheating down to 22" per seat at the island would also be fine. I'd be careful, though, behind seating if you want to walk through back there while people are seated. Moving them to get into storage is one thing, but constantly having an aisle gummed up with people seated is another...whether it's you trying to get through, or, more likely, others trying to get past the kitchen while trying not to invade your workspace...And you definitely want them to do that! I kind of lost track/got confused about how much room you plan to leave between the island and china cabinet. If it's 36", I think that's too little.

I put in my vote against the staggered height cabinets. With your ceiling height, I'd run them all up to the ceiling. It's my personal opinion (so feel free to ignore me) that the staggered height thing should be reserved for spaces that really call for it...A kitchen with centered and symmetrical focal points, and in rooms big enough so things don't get too busy. Some rooms scream for the variation in a long run of cabinets and offer natural places to do it. I don't think your kitchen does this, and I'd be afraid the staggering would look forced.

Rhome - thank you for your advice. Any other ideas on how to deal with the support beam, if the cabs go all the way up? The cabinets will be custom made, so, I can do whatever I need to. Would the cabinets look bad if I lowered *just* the micro cabinet?

So sorry, forgot about/missed the beam issue. Where is the micro cabinet, or where does the beam land, in your latest plan?

Well, if you look at that latest plan, you can see a white block on the floor behind the china cabinet and behind the counter. That is where the beam will be (only on the ceiling, of course!) I put that there to remind me it was there. It will fall a few inches left of the tall pantry. I didn't figure in a micro because I wasn't totally sure I could even figure it in and still have enough upper cabinet space for baking goods, food, and dishes. So, in that last drawing, its supposed to go above the oven in "microhood" form. I'm still split about microhood vs. microwave and range hood. Its starting to feel like the spot for the exclusive micro (or lack thereof) is going to make or break this decision. I do see that a lot of people concede to the microhood because of space issues (which I obviously do have.)

Maybe just make the full ht cabinet wide enough to fit under the beam and make it look like a separate piece? So that it being shorter would be OK. Maybe something that could look like it was a cousin to your china cabinet...Something simpler, like a wardrobe or something.

I could never consider a micro hood for myself...Too low and in your face while cooking, and not able to stir and add to tall pots in the back of the cooktop...besides the venting issues...So take this or leave it: I would put the micro in the lower section of the cabinet just left of the tall cabinet (after widening it to be under the beam). Since I'd also make all the kitchen cabinets go to the ceiling, you'd gain that space. You can actually see micro done like this in our last kitchen in the photo of the window pass through in my post above.

Oh, forgot to say that I also agree that the range should be moved over to the right. With the current setup, there will not be enough room for someone to be at the sink and the range at the same time. I would move it at least another 21".

If the utility/pantry cab were wider...which you could definitely do if you move it over to under the beam as previously suggested, it makes a perfect place for the MW...you will be able to mount it a little lower than if it's mounted over the countertop. It depends on what you're comfortable with.

Yep, 2 good points. The MW could also nest in the taller cabinet.

Ok, more to think about here... I really do want a vent and separate micro, but I just get frustrated and feel like my design is bursting at the seems, here.

Rhome - that whole "separate" piece of furniture under the beam idea... could a nice bakers rack possibly work here? If I could find something nice with cherry accents maybe (our DR set is cherry)

I'll go ponder some more and maybe draw a new picture.

One thing I've been wondering and keep forgetting to ask, is what is a good choice in cabinets for food storage? I planned on using the tall pantry cabinet. What do other people do? The food storage and microwave thing go hand in hand for me because I was thinking of using all that cupboard/pantry space to the right of the range for food storage. (and I'm the type of grocery shopper that stocks up when she can.)

I am so amazed at how far my design and thought process has come since my "removeable dishwasher" idea of last week.

I meant "bursting at the seams."

I know what you mean....when I posted my original questions about my design I never expected to change it so dramatically! But, I'm so glad I did...I really think my kitchen is going to be so much more useful (and probably a lot more expensive *sigh*) than it was originally going to be!

As to food storage...if you stock up on things, I don't think a narrow pantry cabinet will be enough space. I also stock up...when there are sales like 50% off or buy-one-get-one-free on items I use, I generally buy enough to last until the expiration date on that item....which is why I have a 4'9" x 6' basement pantry to hold the overflow. I am also planning a 3'6" x 3'6" corner pantry in our remodel. I will store small appliances, dog food, & people food in it.

I think that if instead of the china cabinet you put in 5' of 12" deep pantry cabinets (+ the pantry on the range wall) you'll solve 2 problems: plenty of food (& small appliance) storage and add 5 more inches to the clearance behind the island!

Of course, it then re-introduces the problem of what to do with the china cabinet :-(

But I'm concerned that b/c the main thoroughfare b/w the kitchen and the playroom is b/w the island and the back wall, you really should not skimp on clearance there.

I love baker's racks, but really could never figure out how to use one efficiently. I think that given your storage, I'd prefer something I could close off and really fill up. I agree again with Buehl that what you have, even if wider wouldn't be enough to store 'bought-ahead' amounts of food stuffs. I think a wall of pantry space, even if shallow, would be much better.

Yes, amazing change from what you started with. No peculiarity to deal with (a possible kiss of death if resale ever became a consideration), and a wonderful kitchen anyone would love to work in.

About the traffic between the china and island seating. It is concerning. BUT:

I don't picture that space as a main traffic area, actually because if someone is going to the kitchen for something, it is usually a drink, the sink, or the range, and all three are very accessible from the straight shot by the fridge, past the island. There is also the hallway that goes out to the foyer/LR that can be used to get to the kitchen. I think if someone is really wanting a straight shot to the mudroom door or DR side of kitchen, rather than sqeezing behind the barstools, they could just shoot out through the hallway. We will be opening that doorway between the hall and LR to 6 feet wide, too (see earlier pic of entire 1st floor, that hallway is a whole 'nother project), so then it will be even more accessible and useable. All of this is combined with the fact that the stools won't ALWAYS be in use, but pushed in a lot of the time.

It is going to be a bit of a roll of dice. If we hate it, we will store the china cab and ask the cabinet maker to make us those shallow pantry cabs. I have space in the mudroom I can use as "overflow" pantry space, too.

I have thought about skipping the island altogether, or, making it much much smaller and skipping the storage under it, OR skipping the seating. I hate to let go of ANY of those elements, however. See, I want it all! And we're so close. I mean, geez, one extra square foot on both sides of kitchen would probably do it. It can get frustrating.

I like your latest version. So much more functional than the initial design. I have a couple of comments and they are really more for you to consider what matters more.

- Seeing the fridge from the front door. This would bother me, but I also think where you have the fridge right now flows really well so it would be a compromise I would be willing to make. The other option would be to switch the pantry and the fridge. Easier for cooking, but worse for kids and grown-ups getting drinks and snacks out of the fridge. If you did move the fridge I'd slide the sink down a little to give more room for the stove at its current location.

- Moving stove down. I think that would be nice and you'd still have the cabinet space just that you'd store food on the other side of the stove too. Sliding it down also has the side benefit of hiding it from direct view of the dining (if it ever were to be a dining room again). Moving the stove down does put it across from the island and makes the island a really good prep space too, but if you want another person at the island prepping while you are on the stove you will have a collision. However now you collide with the sink so maybe moving it less than the full 21" would be better, though it messes with cabinet sizes. Only you can figure out what really works for you there.

- The support beam. How about adding another fake beam in the kitchen and make it part of the design to balance the other real beam? Make it a design feature. I know one example would be to look at lynninnewmexico's pictures as she has some as part of her home. I know a search (yahoo or google) for beams would give you plenty more photos. It also goes with lots of different styles. I'm not sure how that would work with your ceiling height, but something to consider to integrate the beam more and not have it stand out.

- For the microwave. Could you do an under the counter one in the island. Maybe on the end that faces the sink side?

- Isle space behind stools. You want at least 2ft left to walk behind when a stool is pulled out. That is the number I used when figuring my dining table size and it has worked well for us.

- Work Space size. Consider the areas where you will be working and where you will need more than one person in the space. 36" is tight for more than one person, but if only one person will be in that space then it should be sufficient. Set things up and test it out. Pretend you are cooking or prepping and have your kids or husband walk by. Having more space in the sink/dw area than for one person would be a must to me, but stove area might be fine with less.

I have to say you've come a long way and have a great design. BTW I've seen lots of those sink openings posted on here so maybe go through the FKB and some of the posts. I know redbazel has an opening like it and I've seen several others.

I think with the overflow storage space in the mudroom, and the option to add the shallow pantry later, you're good with this plan. As far as the seating aisle clearance, it's just our job to point out what could potentially be an aggravation for some people...But then you weigh it against the cost of any change, and if you're happy, then we're happy! It's just that you want to be able to consider your options now, not discover the tightness after it's built and you no longer have any choice in the matter. In other words, if you can live with and love your kitchen plan despite any negatives we can find to point out, it's a good step in the process. I don't think you have to give up the island or the seating. You have come a long, long way and will have a great kitchen!

One more thought came to me. Kind of win-win:

Phase I:
Do it as you have planned with 39" aisles and full depth cabinetry island with a 12 inch overhang for seating. This should work fine especially because the kids will be the ones sitting there and they all have short legs, right? Use your china as planned.

Phase II:
Kids are bigger. China migrates to the Dining Room (ex playroom). Put in a shallower pantry unit. Replace the island top with one with a deeper overhang so taller folk can sit there comfortably. Or maybe by then you won't want island seating at all and instead opt for wide aisles.

Doing what works now with flexibility for the future makes sense to me!

Celtic - thank you for articulating something I've been thinking about all the long, but haven't been able to put into words. (the two phase plan)

Rhome - I appreciate all the criticism, believe me. Every ounce of it! I could never have done all this planning without all the insight you all have shared.

Lyfia - thanks for all your added advice. I am still struggling with the fridge thing.

Beuhl - I am hoping that the reduced island width will help a little with that traffic thing between the seating and china.

We are planning a 36 inch wide island that is 66 inches long. That will give an 11-12 inch overhang for the seating and 22 inches per stool. I took your advice and visited a neighbor with a ruler in hand. We sat at her peninsula which is 36 inches wide with and 11 inch overhang (24 inch base cabs plus a 1 inch backing, plus 11 inches counter left to hang over) I have sat there before and never felt uncomfortable, but this time I really paid attention. It was just fine for me (and I am tall) so for now, that is the plan.

My current layout issue is this: Do I leave the fridge where it is, visible from the front door and bordering the playroom or do I swap it with the pantry cabinets on the end of the range wall?

If that room was a dining room, maybe it would all seem to "flow" better, but because that room is used as a playroom/LR (there is a recliner right next to the fridge if it stays in that location) it seems a bit out of place or something. Maybe this will change once all the cabinets are in? I like it because it is very accessible without having to get all the way into the kitchen, but, then on the other wall it would be closer to the microwave. So, I feel like I have two choices:

Fridge in current position, next to LR, microwave to left of range.

Or

Fridge swapped with pantry cabinet, then microwave to the right of the range.

In both scenarios, the micro stays within steps of the micro.

Any thoughts?

I meant, the FRIDGE will be within steps of the micro. Is there any way to edit a post after you've sent it?

I'm confused about the fridge in its current location being seen from the front door. I thought the doorway toward the front door is by the table? Do you mean you will be able to see it looking through a doorway into the living room and past the playroom? Seems like it's not a direct enough view to be a huge deal. But maybe I don't have the true picture.

Swapping would be good, except for one thing...Path for prepping takes you to fridge, past stove to sink, then back to the stove. It is nice to have it closer to the table, though. Think about how your tasks and traffic paths will work, then weigh the options...Maybe a list of pros and cons, but only let that be a guide and go with your gut.

Right when you walk in the front door, you have two choices: straight ahead to the kitchen, or immediately left into the playroom (there is an opening to the playroom directly left from the front hallway/foyer.) It is from that spot, right inside the front door, that you can see the big white fridge. I'm just not used to seeing it there, so it seems to stick out like a sore thumb. But its probably not a big deal at all.

When I'm ready to settle on my general layout, what is my next step? Cabinet details... so how do I begin with that? I pretty much know basic things that I want, need, and where I sorta think they should go. If I post all that up with a new drawing, would you all be willing to double check that with me, too?

If you mean the view from front door is a long view across rooms to see fridge, I'm with Rhome that it may not matter. Then again, you have a good working plan, so from here on out the aesthetics and the 'just cause I prefer it like that' can drive the show. Either fridge location will work - just diferent pluses and minuses. As a ergonomic junkie (all 'function over form' for me, LOL), I like the fridge-sink-range flow better than fridge-range-sink. But you know, both will work.

Coming along nicely. Time for visual and cabinet folk to step up here. Maybe a new thread announcing 'layout is done, now for the cabinet specifics' will get attention from new eyes.

I will follow along but likely can't help much with that stuff... Good luck!

To cut down on the "big white fridge" look, you could surround the refrigerator with paneling to match the cabinets and have the cabinet above the refrigerator be deep enough to come out to the front of the refrigerator.

Most above refrigerator cabinets are only 12" deep so it makes the refrigerator look even bigger than it is and wastes cabinet space since it's too difficult for most people to reach over the refrigerator top 18 to 24 inches in and then open doors... With the full depth cabinets, you just reach up to open the doors...most people use them for tray storage (easy to pull out/push in) or seldom-used items. Some even use it for a TV...either mounted on the outside or mounted on a slide out platform.

Anyway, if you do this, the only part of the "white" that will show will be the front and if it's surrounded by cabinetry (or panels) there isn't as massive a white area. (The side panels are usually 3/4 of an inch.) It will also hide the white from the Playroom/LR and it will look more like furniture from that point of view.

Oh BTW, I think CelticMoon's 2-phase plan is a great idea! I also agree that the refrigerator should stay where it is...it's where it will be the most useful--easily accessible from the kitchen and fits the work flow as well as being right there for the people in the Playroom & LR w/o getting in your way in the kitchen!

If there was a way to get the MW there as well it would be close to perfect--close to refrigerator for warming up/cooking & making popcorn or other snack food would not interfere in the kitchen. Oh well, you can't have everything....at least with the MW on the other end it's close to the eating area so food goes w/o too much walking around obstacles.

And yes, go ahead and post your latest drawing.

OH gosh, I can't believe it, but yes, I am back with questions about layout. I posted them in my "layout decided" thread, but then decided to post them here instead since Valinsv asked for pictures and this thread is loaded with them.

Celtics last idea about aligning the island parallel with the ceiling beam instead of crossing it inspired me to consider a peninsula in that space anchored to the wall where the china cabinet was planned. It would eliminate a walkway, but it would also add a base cabinet, plus more room on the bar side either for another stool or for more elbow room. In order to keep enough space behind the barstools for an eat-in table, I would need to push the peninsula into the doorway to the PR/Future DR. So, then the question is:

What do I do with the PR doorway? I could:

-Make the doorway smaller so that the penninsula is completely anchored to the wall and not exposed in the doorway.

-Open the doorway up more so a good 2 feet of penninsula is exposed with the barstools behind the wall along with the overhang.

-Leave it the way it is, and just have a foot of the penninsula showing

I could move the penninsula back towards the windows so it is perfectly aligned with the already existing wall there, but then the barstools would be crowding up the other side of the kitchen and I do still want an eat-in area there.

Any thoughts? I do realize that a peninsula will block any traffic to the other side of the kitchen without walking through the work zones, but, I really think that will work fine for us, especially if I can make the aisles a tad bigger in this plan.

Valin - and to answer your questions, yes I do need to accommodate for trim around our openings, and I need 3 seats at the bar. 4 would be nice, but not having a 4th is not a deal-breaker.