I do lots of cooking with family and friends.
I really like the peninsula to keep people out of the kitchen.

You are a person of strong contradictions. I don't really have suggestions to offer partly because I can't figure out which part of those statements wins.

So this is friendly critique of the drawing (not you).

Roughly, the way the plan is, the cleanup sink is the prep sink and the dishwasher isn't particularly close to the dish storage area and the official prep sink is beached in a corner. U shapes can be among the most difficult to plan. The sides are always a little too far away and the corners cause contention.

Actually using the clean up area for clean up would probably irritate the chef because the chef wouldn't be able to use the counters to the left of the range or access the stuff in that base cabinet or open the left-hand oven. The person using the clean up sink could feel trapped by the dishwasher and the oven doors.

The corner sink prep thing is difficult to use by more than one person at a time because of the laws of physics - only one butt can occupy any given space at the same time - plus an ancillary theorem of one butt in a corner controls access to the counter top and cabinets for 2 feet on each side.

The 24" counter beside the ref is pretty unusable by a righty (elbows hit ref). A person there controls that entire corner.

These are my entire suggestions--

Maybe look around to see if another two feet could be found for an island, or if stuff could be arranged to separate zones better. Or if the order around the room could go snack-coffee, food storage, sink, prep, cooking, dish storage, clean up. Or if the love-hate relationship with family and guests could be resolved.

I took that statement to mean that anyone who is just coming in to sniff, stir or nibble has to stay out. I think we all know people like that, LOL!

I don't see the DW as a huge problem. It's nice to have the sink so close that you just turn and place your dirty pots, pans and utensils without bumping into a prepper.

If you do that much cooking and entertaining, you may want a beverage frig out of the main kitchen.

Bmorepanic, I am guessing that the OP didn't fully say every word she meant (please clarify bibliomom!).

What I am guessing she could have meant was that she does lots of cooking with family and friends over at the house. She is cooking, they are visiting. Getting down to technicalities, it is true she is "cooking with them" because she is with them and is cooking, but stated as is, leaves confusion.

Sorry, for the disection, I think semantics and grammar are great fun.

Bibliomom, I am not a layout expert so I don't have much advice for you - just a little. If everyone truly will stay out the kitchen, it seems like a plan that would work. Where were you planning on putting the dishes? Do you mind walking to put them away?

We have an island sink with seating in front of the sink like you've proposed for yours, and I would recommend making sure you have enough space for your guests to sit there. We have about 13" or 14" from faucet to edge and guests avoid that area. Anything there gets soaked, and if they do sit there, their arms end up in water some of the time. That area has become the offical area for recycles waiting to be delievered to the garage recycle bins. Not good for much more than that.

I have one of those portable islands that's 2 feet deep and 4 feet wide and it's wonderful. I would strongly suggest you put one of those in. It's a great prep surface-you take everything out of the fridge, put it on the island and prep. I might move the range to the left a little bit so that if someone is cleaning and someone else is cooking they're not bumping elbows.

In my experience, peninsulas rarely keep people out, but do trap them in...and in the way.

I agree with Bmore that both sinks, located as they are, mean anyone using them takes up space along to cabinet runs...Basically taking the space of 2 possible people. 24" sink cabinets can be a necessity in some tiny kitchens, but I don't think it's necessary in yours.

It seems you have little (and overlapping) counter space where you need it most...the cleanup and stove areas...but a lot where you don't. The zones, IMO, could be spread to use the kitchen more equitably and result in a more comfortable kitchen to use.

So sorry -- I was tired and over-eager upon posting and very obviously unclear. I'm not sure I'm in much better shape now, but I'll try ;-)

It is contradictory, but I think I have a variance of needs on a regular basis. (And I am apparently just a really contradictory person.) I actually *do* have friends and family physically cooking with me - me and some other moms preparing lunch for a dozen kids; my sisters coming over for a tamale making party; holidays with my whole family bringing over a dozen half cooked dishes -- it's just sort of the nature of the beast. And it's not just a couple times a year, either -- we usually have friends and/or our large extended families over several times a month.

(On the other hand, I'm really hoping for the aforementioned herd of kids (and non-cooking adults) to cut back on the aimless wandering through my workspace. ;-)

Needsometips08, I was actually planning on keeping my dishes in the 30" cabinet across the aisle from the dishwasher -- lane blocking if there's a lot of in-and-out traffic, but right by the entrance for the, "Kids! Go set the table!" It doesn't say in the plan, but I'm planning on setting a tall wall cabinet with glass doors directly on the counter. Ikea had a display like that I really liked, and it seemed really accessible for my kids and some of my shorter friends and relatives (apparently I keep too much stuff on high shelves).

As for the seating, we were going to raise it up to make a high bar in front of the sink - a friend of mine's mom has her sink like this and I really like the whole "hiding the dishes" thing. (As opposed to my current kitchen where the first thing you see is the sink.) I also hoped my kids might be less tempted to wander aimlessly through the kitchen if the sink was *right* there for dirty dish drops and drinks of water.

Houseful, I thought about a beverage fridge, but since we pretty much just drink water, tea and a little juice, I wasn't sure it would really help. We do sometimes buy canned beverages, but I usually keep those in the basement wet bar fridge. But you're sooo right about the people who come to "sniff, stir or nibble"! If you're there to work - great! Otherwise, can't you just take three steps back? I'm obviously a bit tetchy about this - hopefully I don't go *too* far the other way. ;-)

Bmorepanic - thanks for the honest criticism. The counter to the left of the fridge *is* awkward - I had originally wanted an appliance garage the whole 5' (yes, I'm an appliance junky), but it's proving to be difficult to pull off with Ikea stock cabinets (which is what we're using). Now, I'm thinking more an appliance carport - where the things I use regularly (rice cooker, bread machine, toaster, hot water pot) can be easily accessed. So I wasn't really expecting it to be good prep space, mostly just a place to park some appliances and land hot food out of the microwave. (Well, and make tea and toast.)

I am still conflicted over the whole pantry cabinet arrangement -- is it more important to have the pantry or the fridge close the big counter? Again, I was hoping that fridge + pantry(snacks) + dishes would create something of a snack zone, but it could just be more craziness on my part. Feel free to re-arrange pantry cabinets, fridges and microwaves ad nauseum!

I was trying to think basic zones, but I've always had such small/non-functional kitchens, it's still somewhat hypothetical to me. I had *hoped* the dishwasher/sink/dish cabinet across the aisle would help corral the dishes (which usually aren't washed until after we've eaten unless I'm cooking solo.) The 2 1/2' to the right of the stove isn't very much space (well, it's more than I have now) but again, the stock cabinet problem: Ikea only makes two corner cabinets and the 49" is the only one that allows enough room for a dishwasher/sink peninsula. I can move the stove closer to the prep sink, but not farther away. And sadly, there isn't any more room to be had - there's a deck to the west and a patio to the east.

The prep sink (which I failed to name) is drawn as (and might actually be) the infamous Barbie Swimming Pool with Lounging Reef - otherwise known as the Fete entertainment sink by Kohler. I really liked the draining space - something that seemed ridiculously hard to find in a prep sink. Of course I'd like it better if I could see one in person . . .

And the biggest thing I *completely* failed to mention was the baking area. While the 15" and 30" (yes, it's wrong on the plan) tall cabs to the right of the fridge are for pantry space, I was going to put all my baking stuff and dry goods in those big 36" drawers on the west side. I like to bake (and make candy), but when I do, it's usually all I'm doing - it doesn't overlap mealtime. I'm also one of those horrible people who likes to spread out over acres of counter when I bake. (I'm not as bad with cooking.) Basically, I wanted a big chunk of uninterrupted counter. But again, it might just be a reaction to ten years of trying to prep on the two feet of island counter to the right of the cooktop, across the room from the sink - and it might not be what's best.

I really don't know how I would cook in an ideal kitchen, because I've never seen one - I just know how DH, and BF and the rest of us have adapted to using mine, and all the things that currently make me crazy. So I guess I'm just making stuff up based on previous experience. I know I seem obsessively focused on the kids, but right now I'm homeschooling two kids on the autism spectrum. Some of our homeschool friends also have special needs kids, so it really is one of the dominating features of my life - and I'm hoping you wonderful people will let me know if it's blinding me to the obvious.

Thanks so much for your help. I was a little two busy to check the computer today (can I tell you how hard it is to get half a roll of TP out of a bathroom sink drain?) but hopefully tonight's ramblings will help clarify my conflicting intentions and the Mad Hatter like reasoning behind them.

Or not. ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Fete Sink

Just a quick note b/c I'm very tired, but...I would forget the blind corner cabinet altogether and, instead, put a 27" cabinet (or 24" + 3" filler if Ikea doesn't have 27" cabinets) turned 90o on the peninsula facing out toward the "New Family Room". Then, you can have as much room as you want b/w the range & the peninsula. (The filler is to allow the doors/drawer clear each other inside the peninsula, the amount needed will depend on what cabinets are there and how big your hardware is.)

HTH!

To me,this isn't a lot different from what you had. It does move the entrance to the room. Without seeing a complete floorplan - I don't know what that does!

This keeps a peninsula, cooking, baking and establishes a clean up area that is not in contention with cooking. It's kinda closed/open. The kids still get into the ref and the dishes. AFAIK, the only real way to keep kids outta the kitchen is to wait about 15 years.

Prep mostly takes place facing the family room. Prep can have helpers sitting in the stools and there are at least two complete prep runs plus the baking run at the window can function as a staging area or incomplete prep space.

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I really like bmorepanic's redesign. I think it completely addresses the issues of the OP while being much more cleanly 'zoned' so that there's sufficient countertop room for all three major points: refrig, sink and range. Nice job!

(and the words of wisdom about the kids is alas, all too true....)

Well, apparently I make no sense no matter what. Here's a complete plan of the first floor, if that helps at all. Up is East, by the way. We have houses facing us to the North and South, a patio/backyard to the East of the current kitchen and a small deck (that faces our cul-de-sac) to the West that runs along the current family room and dining room. The door by the laundry room exits to the garage.

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The main reasons I wanted to swap the kitchen and family room were:

1. to get a better kitchen layout
2. to get a bigger family room
3. to provide easy access from the family room to the patio/back yard.
4. to provide a view of the backyard/patio for better kid supervision

Ideally, I'd also like a small dining area in the family room, a range with adequate venting, and decent pantry and counter space. I couldn't ever figure out a way to get this to work in my current space -- the solarium wall is only 6 1/2 feet high, and the pop-out is really awkward -- but the narrow profile of the family room seemed to make it ideal for a G or U shaped kitchen. That was the only reasoning behind it.

Bmorepanic - I really like your angled peninsula -- you were so sweet to work it up without seeing my house plan. Which conveniently makes it impossible to move the entrance more than a couple feet east. Sorry. What can I say? I was seven months pregnant when we bought the house with it's big, awkward floor plan. There are things I love about it and things I hate about, and (many) things I never anticipated wanting at all. I've finally realized I'm not going anywhere anytime soon, so I might as well try and fix it.

Thanks for your help.

Bibliomom,

I like your floorplan. There's alot of potential there. Have you considered opening up your dining room to the old family room/new kitchen space? Then, instead of a U kitchen you can have an L with an island with seating. Not sure if a formal separate dining is important to you. Just a thought!

One simple way to solve some of the overlap problem would be to shift the range to the left by the width of that 15" base cabinet that is currently on its left, and put it to the right of the range.

(Unless this a trash pullout, but a spot could still be found for that in the right place anyway.)

Upon seeing this new posted floor plan, I thought the same thing pps7 did above. Some people like areas to be separate and distinct though, and some people feel strongly about keeping a formal dining room so it would depend on your preferences. I like open, and I would love, love love to have my dining area separate but fully exposed to the kitchen area (wish that I could get that in in mine!). I personally would go for columns flanking the sides to draw the separation of the 2 rooms.

You could have the exterior door in the dining area - and could also put french doors in the new family room that leads out to the backyard.

You are too hard on your floorplan. I agree it has lots of potential.

Ah, Palimpsest - DH and I were just discussing the 15" cabinet! (Do we ever discuss anything other than kitchen stuff these days?) I had originally stuck it in to have space for cutting boards and cookie sheets to sit vertically and was planning to have my main garbage under the main kitchen sink with a small bin (or two) in the corner cab under the prep sink. But DH hates the idea of a bin under the prep sink, so we thought we could put a bin in the 15", move it next to the prep sink and use that.

But I can see the point about moving the stove closer to the prep sink - it would put it closer to the main prep area and provide enough space for a bigger, separate space to the left of the stove, right? I'm thinking that moving the 24" cabinet to the other side would be *too* close, though.

The other idea we'd kicked around is changing out one of the 36" drawers by the big window to a 12" and a 24", or putting in a 15" and two 30"s, but I wasn't sure how it would look. Ikea makes pull out cabinets in 12" and 15", so I could move the pull out trash over to that wall and move the stove down.

What do you think? I've never had the luxury of *choosing* a space for trash before ;-)

We had also hashed out the idea of having a corner mounted dish sink, but DH was a bit balky about something so "weird". I, however, am still totally open to it. I currently have the single big bowl sink, and I do like it (soooo much better than the old two bowl rusty one), but when we looked at the 24" sinks we realized that they were still a heck of a lot bigger than either side of my old divided one.

Pps7, we had talked about opening to the dining room, but we couldn't ever come up with a way to do it that didn't feel weird - maybe it's just all the big hallways to nowhere. I've come to like having a dedicated dining space for when we have dinner with friends and/or family - which usually means a minimum of ten people - so I haven't looked at it in a while. Again, if you can think of something fabulous (that will still hold up the second floor of the house) by all means, let me know - We haven't gotten permits, yet ;-)

And thanks again, all of you - I kind of got pushed into this remodel abruptly and am totally floundering about, trying to figure out how to filter through assorted desires and needs and make them work in the *real* world. And actually *making* such permanent decisions is freaking me out! ;-)

If you could get a larger family room without swapping it with the kitchen, would you be satisfied keeping the kitchen where it is?

Assuming backyard traffic no longer interferes with cooking and I could put enough windows on the east wall to see the the kids, then absolutely. It's not shown on the plan (because it's not architectural) but my only pantry storage is on open shelving along the solarium window wall. Not attractive or convenient ;-)

Here's the U shaped kitchen we are currently in. It's about 12.5 x 12.5 -very similar to your space and it functions very well.

The only thing lacking is a pantry cabinet which is what I would put where the bench is.

You also wanted a kitchen table or come type of seating. How about a built in kitchen table 4 x 4 with bench seating where the bump out to the solarium is? Or wyou can put a small rectangle table there as well.

Here is a plan of what I was thinking. I don't know why I can't make it bigger, but I'll do my best to describe it. First, though, I am assuming that the door at the end of the hall by the laundy goes to the patio. If so, then:

- Completely eliminate the exterior door from the kitchen and make that a wall of windows.
- Make the kitchen opening that is toward the laundry just a bit bigger, but not big enough to see into the bathroom.
- Borrow some laundry and some bathroom for a pantry.
- Make all kitchen cabinetry run on East and South sides.
- Put a nice hutch or something behind island stools to fill the corner.
- Move wall between family and dinig room over a foot and shrink dining room.
- Opening dining room up to the living room

All the tiny red dots would be a place to do some type of architectural detail, whether it be columns, cased openings or whatever.

I realize now that this may not be cheaper than a complete flip-flop, but I just wanted to give you something else to ponder before making such a huge decision.

Have fun!

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Ignore the link. It kept rejecting my message unless I added a link. Very weird!

Okay, now that I am previewing this, I have another idea. You could flip the bathroom and the closet (keep bathroom entrance in existing hallway). Then you could open the kitchen wall a bit more and do a really large island with even more seating since you wanted to another seating area anyway. This would be a nice opportunity to get creative with the island shape.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ignore

Pps7 - you have such a cute kitchen! Does your (I'm assuming) rolling island work for you? I think I'm kind of off islands right now, since the kids love to lap it, but maybe a small one isn't as tempting.

Houseful - sadly, the door in the hall goes straight into the garage, so I'm pretty much stuck with a door on the East wall. We have talked about shrinking the dining room (which requires moving an entire load bearing wall) and taking out the solarium windows (which requires building up the wall to reach 8' in height and roofing that part of the house) but DH is pretty balky about us tackling either of those projects ourselves.

Ugh. Sometimes this house makes me want to tear my hair out, with all the "you can only access this from this incredibly inconvenient place". (Did I mention my hot water heater is in the basement crawl space *behind* the furnace?)

Thanks so much, you guys - the ideas really are helping.

One thing to keep in mind is the view through the house when you walk in the front door. If my perspective is right, you will be staring straight down the hall to a dead end if you move your kitchen entry.

We're actually trying to shift about half the hallway width to the left, so you'll still be able to see there's an entrance, but aren't looking straight through the entire length of the house. Then I'll probably fill out the (new) corner with a corner shelf/display case to make the transition a little easier.