FWIW, I love all the changes you describe!

Will you put stools at the island? If not, I think a small bistro table will be perfect. I love the sliders idea, and the double oven if you like (or need) to cook.

The only down side to losing the eat in kitchen, in my opinion, would be if you have a very formal dining room that wouldn't be conducive to eating regular meals.

IMHO, with the dining directly adjacent to the kitchen, with that nice opening, I would much prefer more prep surface and island and double oven....

Good luck with your choices!

* pepperidge_farm says: *

** Will you put stools at the island? **

Yes, that is all part and parcel of the deal. If we do that, I don't know if I'd want to obstruct the path to the patio doors with anything, other than say a corner unit for my orchids.

** If not, I think a small bistro table will be perfect. I love the sliders idea, and the double oven if you like (or need) to cook.**

I cook a lot. I never had a wall oven so this is new to me. I've used 30" ranges for over 20 years, and entertaining can be quite a challenge with such a small stove. So we're thinking cook top with a minimum of 5 burners and a hood instead of the current microwave. That in itself would be a challenge as we have ducts in the way that we'll need to take into consideration.

**The only down side to losing the eat in kitchen, in my opinion, would be if you have a very formal dining room that wouldn't be conducive to eating regular meals.**

That's the problem. Right next to where the current computer desk is, is our very formal dining room. So the large island would be as a full time eat area. We don't have the room for a large island and a full dinette set as we have now.

Thank you very much for your input.

-M

We just got rid of our eat in kitchen and expanded our island. We too have a center hall colonial in NJ, but our set up looks to be a little different than yours. Our family room is open to the kitchen, so I moved our DR table there and basically "eliminated" the formal DR. I'm not sure what is thru that opening from the kitchen, or if you would even be interested in taking down those walls. Here is an in progress pic and the layout. We also had a bow window in the kitchen and have french doors in the family room. We changed the bow to a regular window(to the left of the range) and access the back thru the french doors.

The other option is to do something similar to what Lagrant did. Do you have access to the back thru your family room?

Here is a link that might be useful: Lagrant's Kitchen

Could you post a floorplan? Before I say "yes" to the island and refrigerator/pantry/double oven setup changes, I would like to see how it would all work together and what the work flow would be...

All you need to do is draw up a floorplan on graph paper to-scale (you can download graph paper for free from various sites, just search on "graph paper"). Label the widths of the walls/windows/doorways, the distances b/w those walls/windows/doorways, and indicate where each doorway leads (DR, Mudroom, LR, FR, etc.) Just take a digital picture of it & upload it to your Photobucket account.

++++++++++

To post a picture...

When you look at the pictures in your album, notice there are several boxes under each picture.

Copy the code in the box that's labeled "HTML Code".

Paste that code in the "Message" box here and you have it!

When you "Preview Message", you'll see the picture.

+++

I just checked, you don't have the boxes under the pictures...at least I don't see them. (You may not be allowing me to see them, no matter.) If you also cannot see them, then click on the picture you want to post.

When it comes up, you'll see the boxes I was talking about on the left. Copy the code from the "HTML Code" box & paste it in the "Message" box here.

Here is a link that might be useful: Graph Paper Search on Google

It's always hard to tell from photo's. You don't seem to have enough room width or length to go for a center island with seating - particularly not with full depth cabinets on both sides.

A counter depth ref is about 30" deep by the time you get done with the handles. A normal cabinet counter is about 26" deep. An aisle with seating and cabinets behind it and always providing a passable aisle behind the chairs and the cabients is around 5 feet wide. An aisle between two rows of cabinets is min 42" with 48" preferred. So, to have an island where it sounds like you'd want it, your room would need to be around 16 feet wide - give or take a foot - to have a 3-3.5 foot wide island.

Regarding the refrigerator...

If you're looking for one that's "...at least 29 cubic feet or larger..." that means you'll most likely be looking at a 48" wide counter depth, a 36" standard depth (36"Wx36"D), or an "All refrigerator" (which would mean you'd have to also get a freezer).

If you go the standard-depth route, see if you can recess it into the wall and, possibly, room behind it to make it appear counter depth and gain you some aisle width in front of it.

A layout w/measurements would be so very helpful!

[You could do what I do. I load an image of graph paper into a Microsoft PowerPoint presentation and then create "rectangles" & "circles" to represent cabinets, appliances, sinks, etc. (Counters are approx 25.5" deep, cabinets 24" deep, appliances depend on what you want, etc.) I then save the slide as a "jpg" file and load it into my Photobucket account...]

NjKit

Congrats on your remodel project

I agree w/Buehl w/o floor plan it is difficult to render an opinion

Based on cursory view w/o plans

- 36" cooktop in same location as the range - appears that you will have no counter space (or very little) on either side -

- Large refrig - in same location - as Beuhl stated that will probably be a 48" one - which will likely render the now desk area - too difficult to put in wall ovens & pantry

- If you remove part of the U (where DW) is & put in an island I'm having a difficult time picturing how the island will be oriented. Particularly if the floor plan stays relatively the same - it seems the island will really be too much of an island - meaning it will be off on it's own unrelated to the rest of the kitchen - more for eating area in which case I would just keep it as a breakfast eating area. I would also be concerned w/Island in that area & sliders - clearances

- Keep posting - lets see your floor plan, room dimensions

gl

**A layout w/measurements would be so very helpful!**

Thank you so very much for the replies, also thank you for helping me figure out how to bring in images into this forum via photobucket. As per your requests, here are some images which you might find helpful in assisting us in our dilema.

Please note that the two empty walls will be coming down, we're planning to open up the kitchen area into the family room.

When designing your space, check not only the width and depth but the height of all potential refrigerators you are considering to make sure they will fit. And the height figure to look at is the door hinge number, not the door figure. Most of the larger refrigerators are over 70 inches tall which will put the upper cabinets up fairly high.

Island seating...there is not enough room for 3 seats on the curved end. If you look closely, leg space is being shared by at least 2 of the stools...so, only 2 will fit on that curve.

This is what you need for your setup:

25.5" for sink wall + 42" aisle + 40.5" island + 48" aisle + 24" pantry = 180"

You have 159.25". Even if you reduce the aisle b/w the sink & island to 36" (and I would not go any less, especially since your DW is on that aisle), you still need 174"...approx 15" more than you have.

[Island: 1.5" overhang + 24" cabinet + 15" seating overhang...don't go less b/c of the traffic]

Where does the door to the right of the range lead? If it's a major entrance into the kitchen and/or house, you will need at least 48" b/w the island & the refrigerator...without seating.

If you eliminate the seat in front of the pantry, and move the island away from the range wall, you might be able to fit seating.

I would consider putting a prep sink on the island...

Right now, you have your Cleanup Zone, Prep Zone, and Cooking Zone confined to the corner of your kitchen.

The Cooking Zone (where the range is) will take up that back wall, the Cleanup Zone will take up approx 2' on ether side of the sink, and the Prep Zone will be in the same place as the Cleanup Zone...those 2' to the right of the sink.

Note that Prep Zones usually end up being b/w a water source & the Cooking Zone...that 2' or so b/w your sink & range that I mentioned above. Not only is it rather small for prepping, but you will also be in conflict w/the Cleanup Zone for space. If you put a prep sink in the island, you'll be able to use it for prepping more than you will if there's no water source.

As it stands, the island will probably not get used much for prep b/c (1) there's no water and (2) you'll be sharing standing space w/someone else at the sink. If you can add water to the island, it will help, but w/the 32" aisles you're showing, it's still not going to be very comfortable working there. Increase the aisle to 42" and you'll be much happier!

That counter to the left of the sink will probably not get used as a Prep Zone b/c it's too far away from the Range/Cooking Zone. It might work as a secondary Prep Zone, but not a primary one. It will work as a Beverage Center, but not much else b/c it's just too far away from major appliances/fixtures.

Is it important to you that your sink be in front of the window? If so, can the window be moved?

Where is the microwave?

Your proposed layout is almost identical to my current layout, except that I have a small square counter-height table in place of your long island. Here are the problems with that layout:

1. There is only room for one person at the sink, which means there is one combined wash and prep zone. Effectively this is a kitchen for one person to work in. A second person can prep on the island but s/he has no access to water so is pretty limited. If you want cooking to be a family affair, you'll want a second sink.
2. To get from sink/prep zone to refrigerator, you have to walk around the island. Your long island will make it a long detour. With your narrow aisles, it will be hard to get around a second person, and if oven or dishwasher door are open, you are trapped at the sink.
3. People sitting at the island will mostly block traffic. You do not have room for four people to comfortably sit and dine, and for cooking and traffic at the same time.

I'm not saying the proposed kitchen won't function, but here is how it will tend to function: you do the cooking alone with maybe 1 or 2 spectators seated at the far end of the island, everyone else comes in and sits at the island, you serve them, then everyone leaves except the person doing dishes. This may be how you plan to use the kitchen - it actually is close to how I plan and prefer to use mine - but if not, then you should revisit the layout.

A second sink/prep zone, moving the eating to a separate table, are things to consider.

More thoughts -

Sitting around a normal table in normal chairs like normal diners is, to me, preferable to lining up at a bar, perched like birds on tall stools. So, if you only have room for one of those two, you might think about a four-top table in the space between kitchen and dining room. Depends on how much traffic will cross that area - I'm not clear what the various doors lead to - broom closet, or discotheque?

If you choose to shrink the island and make it all workspace with a prep sink, perhaps position the sink where people can get to it without entering the main cook/prep/wash zones. Add a microwave nearby - perhaps undercounter in the island, or in-wall by the refrigerator if there is space. This is all about keeping the masses in their place. Let them heat their refrigerated gruel and prepare their weak tea without interfering with the business of making real food.

Another place for the refrigerator would be at the end of the main sink counter, where half of the current double-width sliding door is. Now the island won't block the path from main prep zone to refrigerator. But, the aisle between main sink and island will need to be wide enough for one person to get to the refrigerator while another works at that sink and loads the dishwasher. This is a less attractive location, I think, but just wanted to mention it.

Wherever you place the refrigerator, I think you might consider a true counter-depth model (26'' deep to the handles) or a typical counter-depth model (28-29'' to the handles) that is recessed into the walls. This will get you more clearance.

Aisle width is slightly flexible. I think the 32'' you've drawn between sink counter and island would be inadequate for most people - unless you're all size 2 and ex-submariners. Closer to 40'' will work better. The full 42'' would be nice but may not be absolutely necessary. Between range and island, I think clearance is even more important since you'll be handling large hot things while stooped over a blazing hot open oven. Not a good time to get tipped onto your keester.

Can you mock up an island (e.g. from cardboard boxes) and experiment with different aisle widths in your current kitchen? Note counters overhang the cabinets by an inch or so. Also note that drawer dishwashers can take up less room when open to load/unload, because you needn't fully open them just to slide in a dish.

You have plenty of space for a very functional, attractive kitchen - heck, you could almost go over to malgold' s house and steal her kitchen, just send her Bluestar range over to me, please - so fine-tuning the layout to your family's cooking and eating needs will surely be time well spent.

The problem with this size kitchen(mine included) is that you can't do full depth cabinets on both sides and have an island. Plus, the sliding doors take up a lot of space on the length. As I mentioned before, if you have access to the back thru the family room, you might consider not putting in the sliders. It would give you alot more options for appliance placement. If you really want the sliders, I would try and figure out a way to get more clearance in front of the frig, maybe by making the island at that point not as deep as where you have the seating. The other option is to do what MargieB did(posted by marybeth). I'm attaching a link where if you scroll half way down you can see one side of her kitchen. The other side has the frig. Unfortunately I can't seem to locate any additional pics.

Couple other issues with your proposed layout. The DW is a cabinet away from the sink. Might cause issues with dripping when trying to load from the sink. The range/sink area is very crowded. Imagine someone working at the sink and someone at the range at the same time. Then the sink person needing to get something from the frig.

Here is a link that might be useful: MargieB's Kitchen

How about having either a cabinet depth or regular refrigerator to the right of the door on the stove wall, with or without cabinets? If there is room for cabinets there, put your broom closet to the right of the refrigerator and cabinets above the refrigerator for more storage. The island will have to serve as landing zone for the refrigerator. Then put the microwave to the left of the sink, either in uppers or lowers. Scoot the dishwasher closer to the sink. Use uppers close to the dishwasher and sink for dish storage and the microwave in the far left of the uppers or lowers and that far left of the counter for microwave prep.

 Posted by buehl:

**You have 159.25". Even if you reduce the aisle b/w the sink & island to 36" (and I would not go any less, especially since your DW is on that aisle), you still need 174"...approx 15" more than you have.
[Island: 1.5" overhang + 24" cabinet + 15" seating overhang...don't go less b/c of the traffic] **
New Jersey code requires a minimum of 3Â in aisle.
**Where does the door to the right of the range lead? If it's a major entrance into the kitchen and/or house, you will need at least 48" b/w the island & the refrigerator...without seating. **

It is an opening to the kitchen from the mudroom. There are two pantries in that corridor (There is a picture of that in my original post).
We are actually thinking of getting rid of the pantry on the fridge wall in order to push the fridge there in the hopes of creating a wider opening for the aisle.
(picture to give you an idea)

Do you mean start the island further out, closer to the breakfast nook?

**Is it important to you that your sink be in front of the window? If so, can the window be moved**
ItÂs not important, but we have a $50,000 budget to make this happen, and weÂre trying to squeeze a lot into it.
Posted by johnliu:

**Where is the microwave?**

Most probably in the island.

As to two people in the kitchen. Absolute no! ;). IÂm the ONLY cook in the kitchen. ItÂs just how I prefer it. ItÂs easier for me this way.

Posted by malhgold:

** As I mentioned before, if you have access to the back thru the family room, you might consider not putting in the sliders.**

We have an exit to the patio from the mudroom, and through the 3 seasons room (in the family room). However, weÂd like to have the sliders directly to the patio from the kitchen so that we donÂt have to walk around through the family room, then the 3 seasons room to get to the patio. Likewise with the mudroom.

This is so frustrating. And apparently will become a disappointment too. As it seems that my dream of having an island where people can congregate will need to remain a dream.

If it were your kitchen how would you lay it out?

-M

What about something like Holligator's layout? Scroll halfway thru the post to when she posted on May 16th. You could put the frig where your range is and the range to the left of the clean up sink. Not sure what size sliders you are planning, but you might want to consider the smallest size available to give you some extra cab/counter room on that wall, assuming a smaller size would still work for you. Or, have you given any consideration to just a single door to the back? In this layout you could do 12" deep pantry cabs on the wall behind the island. that's what I have and they hold a TON of stuff.

Here is a link that might be useful: Holligator's Kitchen

So what have you decided? My kitchen is almost identical and I'm running into some of the very same problems...and I'm not getting as much help. Love to see how the plan is shaping up. I like MargieBs kitchen, but can't find what is on the wall to the right in the pic.

We are in the midst of designing our kitchen redo and have nearly identical floor plan (maybe a bit more breathing room for the walkways but not much). Like you, I wanted a large island and get rid of the breakfast bay and put in doors to the outside. We eat nearly all of our meals in the DR so I don't think I'll miss the kitchen table.

I don't have pics but I will try to describe what our KD came up with - I'd love to get some other opinions on it. Kitchen sink in the corner with a custom shelf over it. Induction cooktop and hood on the wall between sliding doors and window, DW on that wall as well as a 15' base cabiet. To the right of the corner sink, a 24" base cabinet, then a 24" angled cabinet, we are moving the wall between the mudroom and entry from garage and will have a 27" base cabinet wrapping into that space. (Also, wall cabinets from the shelf to around the corner up to the ceiling). What looks to be your pantry is where I have a large inefficient coat closet. I am taking this space and will have 2 tall cabinets, 1 as a small coat closet (I will still have 5 feet of mudroom), 1 as a pantry, then a 36" cabinet depth RF then a 30" oven/microwave combo before I run into the entry for the DR. The island will have 2 33" cabinets and a trash compactor and shoud seat 4. We are also knocking out the wall to the family room to make one big room.

I will work on learning how to post pics so you can see the layout. One thing I did do was to tape out the layout and try to function walking around the island - for us it was fine but I think angling into the entry way and opening that up is what is going to make it work in our space.