Wow...Had forgotten where you started! And also forgot we all ended up eliminating a doorway in all the process. You were so smart to try doing without it before doing anything permanent. Your plan looks good to me. Does it meet all of your original goals? It's easy to lose track of some of the priorities when you get involved in big changes. But it sure looks better than your current layout! And no having to move the DW to get downstairs. ;-)

Rhome - isn't that funny, to look back? I actually laugh out loud now every time I think about the original plan with the DW by the basement door... geeeez....

I tweaked my design just a bit. I moved the fridge down to the left so that it didn't box in that work zone. And, it would be nice to have a landing spot right off the mudroom, there. I also swapped the sink and range zone just because it seemed to make more sense to have all the food storage on one wall, then the cleaning and dish storage on another. What do you think?

{{!gwi}}

Just giving a little bump.

Any thoughts on this layout, the work zones, the doorways? Will this "triangle" of appliances work well? I've been playing in my kitchen with this idea, and I think it will work.

There are 4 feet in between all isles, the doorway is 32" wide with a 3 inch molding and little bit of wall showing next to trim (in other words, the counters do not run right up to the trim)

The seating bar is a penninsula is attatched to that wall there.

Just some extra info since I didn't add any specific measurements.

I liked it better the first way, I think.

1) I understand not wanting to box in that cabinet run, but the fridge also served to block the view of the sink counter from the table a bit.

2) It seems the new plan might have more traffic going past the stove, which is less desirable.

3) The fridge-to-sink-to-prep-to-stove path is less direct, as is the path from the table to the sink and the table to the fridge. (Draw colored lines on your plan to check out traffic patterns) The fridge seemed more accessible from more directions in the first layout.

4) I also like the orientation of the island to the stove in the first plan...The wider side toward the stove for prep and bigger baking projects. And I like it as a barrier between the table and stove rather than between the table and sink.

5) The stove area seems more crowded, in addition to losing the wider part of the island for workspace in your latest idea.

Sorry...Just think I would prefer the layout as it was...But maybe it's just because I could imagine it so clearly and am not as comfortable with this. I think it's probably not a huge deal either way, and what you prefer is most important, of course!

Rhome - thanks so much for your input. And don't apologize! I want as much feedback as possible - good and bad! This is a huge expense and undertaking and I want it to be as close to perfect as I can get. Even though I have given up a few of my original "priorities" (like trying to incorporate the large dining set) I also added some new problems (keeping the family room doorway!) so I almost feel like I am starting over.

I am working on a pros and cons list for each design. So far, its working out almost even.

I think the first design gives you more usable counter space especially with the 30" deep cabinets. Is it an option to add a small prep sink in the island opposite the stove? It's also only 2 extra steps to land on the island when coming in from the mudroom and you're less likely to have a pileup accumulate on the island then on a side wall so easier to keep tidy.

I also agree on design #1, for some reasons stated above:

1) You don't want to encourage that counter next to the mudroom to be the dumping counter.

2) people coming in to get something from the fridge will be in your you more with fridge in the middle of stove/sink.

3) island/stove is a very workable area, sink/fridge another area where two people can be without being in the way

I also like the first design better for all the same reasons. As to a "drop zone" from the mud room...way back when we had put a Message Center to the right of the door. Is there room to re-introduce it there?

You could even make it more of a closet (see Sweeby's Organization Closet) that closes completely to hide any clutter when you entertain. Instead of a desk, she used, I think, a stand-up desk-height counter with a wide shallow drawer underneath in which for office-type supplies like stapler, tape, etc. She then had a same-depth upper cabinet (with doors) that went from ceiling to counter that closed off. The sides of that cabinet had a dry-erase board and bulletin board. The back wall of the cab also had a bulletin board. She added electrical outlets on the wall for phone & chargers and had a top shelf for phone books. She also added hooks underneath the counter for backpacks and other hooks on the top part for dog leashes, etc. You could also add hooks for keys.

Perhaps you could do something like this as well in that corner.

If Sweeby sees this, perhaps she'll chime in!

HTH!

1. Why so much dead space to the left of the mudroom door???

2. 2nd pland has less functional counter space.

3. Unless your fridge in scheme 2 is built in ($$$$) you're forcing me to look at an unattractive focal point from the LR/DR. In #1 at least I could look at an attractive backsplach behind the sink. If it's not counter depth it's going to protrude into the isleway and disturb the flow of a traffic pattern you say is very important to you.

4. You're not going to keep people from having a dumping ground in that kitchen unless you modify THERI behavior. That'll be very difficult, so you're better off providing them with a spot. Mabey you'd rather it be that round table or the island/penisula???

5. I'd explore a deeper penisula w/more cabinetry and a small prep/bar sink- especially in scheme 1.

I think the first plan has much better flow-- second seems choppy to me and I like the stove opposite the long side of the island-- hands-down, the first one feels better.

Antss - re: the dead space to the left of the mudroom door, I guess I was thinking that 1) the door trim and a bit of wall should show - wouldn't that look nicer than having an appliance butted right up to the molding? Maybe I am wrong about this. and 2) I was trying to keep the kitchen on its own side of the space as much as possible since there will be a dining table by the windows.

I also have a ceiling issue. There is a drop support beam that divides the space into two equal halves. On one side of the beam, is tongue and groove ceiling. The other side (the kitchen side) will have drywall. The T&G is in pretty good shape, so I thought I'd leave it then just paint everything white and let the different textures help define the space. BUT, the fridge being pushed into the T&G side... does that make it look odd? A question for me is, if I push the fridge closer to the door, then should I cut back the T&G enough so that drywall is above anything in the "kitchen" part? Or... perhaps I should scrap the T&G altogether and just pull it off and drywall the whole ceiling??

Any thoughts on this ceiling issue?

As far as prep sinks go, I've never been sold on those, but I am up for some convincing. It seems a little redundant in my kitchen because it seems so small compared to the grander scale ones I've seen.

Beuhl, yes, there is a message center in my plan for that corner... I just didn't bother to fill it into the diagram. I am also planning on a banquette seat for the table, too. (I moved the whole dining set right outta there into the playroom, and it is working well there for now. We actually ate our Thanksgiving dinner in that playroom on the dining room set! I am so glad I did that instead of designing this whole kitchen around that dining set)

Sounds like plan 1 is winning, here. You've all made great points... I really appreciate you all. Keep it coming. I finally feel like I am getting very close.

Forgot another question: When one goes with 30" deep counters, does that make the upper cabs hard to reach? Does anything have to be done to counteract this?

And Antss - in point 3 of your post you mentioned the fridge and how it will protrude into the aisle if it isn't counter depth, and that is why I am considering 30" deep counters. My fridge is a 30" deep fridge. (or maybe you already knew that and was approving of the 30" idea?) Sometimes its hard for me to get the "point" when using message boards. :)

When using 30" base cabs, I think most folks make the uppers 15" deep.

I also like a border of wall to give the doorway trim the focus it deserves... so am in favor of your initial decision. I think if things run right up against the trim, it looks like you're trying to jam too much into the space, especially with more traditional houses and designs. It's actually more relaxing to me to have that little bit of blank space around windows and doors --a chance to take a breath, rather than being like a run-on sentence. I probably sound a bit dramatic, but it's one of the things that was really important to me in our new home. JMHO, of course.

Rhome - I love your run on sentence analogy... I get your thinking.

Lascatz- I'll be going with IKEA so I do not think 15 uppers are an option for me, unfortunately... But I could build them out to be 15 inches out, I suppose.

But then that takes out the option of having an appliance garage or a hutch style dish cabinet that goes down to the counter without intruding so much on the workspace, so I may just leave them 12 deep. I'll have to do some experimenting to see how it feels.

Ok, so the 30" deep counters on the sink wall cut into my available counter space on my range wall. Instead of having two 21 inch cabinets/runs of counter, I will have to drop down to two 18 inch uppers and corresponding runs of counter on either side of range.

If I had a slide-in range, I could go 30" deep on the range wall to make up some counterspace, but, I have a range with a backsplash, so I guess thats out...

Is this a worthwhile trade-off?

With so much space left by the mudroom doorway, consider making a shallow message center/drop zone on the side of the fridge in plan #1. A shallow cabinet with doors facing the breakfast nook and with electrical outlets can hold cell phones and other household gadgets that need charging. The counter can hold the immediate mail until you sort out what needs to go to file 13 or to the office to be paid. Put in some hooks on the backsplash area for keys, and use a shallow depth wall cabinet (also facing the breakfast nook) fitted with an interior corkboard and some "retaining bar slots" for take out menus and coupons. You don't need much depth for all of this to work and work well at keeping your clutter buildup to a minimum.

I definately vote for a prep sink on the island. It simplifies traffic patterns during prep and keeps you from crossing 2 aisles when washing and cutting up veggies for instance. It also minimizes the chances of crowding and cross traffic to the fridge if you have a sink on the island. You only have to "shop" for ingredients from the fridge and unload them to the island where they will stay until added to the cooking zone from the prep zone. Without the prep sink, you have to unload to the island, cross to the sink to wash or rinse your hands, and then back to the island. A prep sink adds a ton of functionality and makes for lots of steps saved.

I'd explore option #1 but with the fridge located next to the family room, which will cut out the "snack traffic" from getting in the way of either clean up or cooking. Put the pantry to the right side of the configuration with the message center on it's side. That cuts down on the cabinetry on that wall, but make those uppers glass cabs that really showcase your "pretties" and your actual dishes and it'll be a nice focal point. YOu then have more room on your range wall to store spices, plastic containers and other stuff that isn't so lovely to look at but which is most of the "kitchen stuff" that needs housing.

Would it be possible to have overhang on the island next to the living room? That would make the island seating more user friendly. I love the idea of the banquette seating by the window, but consider making the island seating more usable for everyday dining and making that sunny spot by the window more of a "lounge" area with the banquette and maybe a nice coffee table instead of a dining height table. (For maximum versatility, you could make the legs adjustable for both functions.) With the banquette wrapping all 3 walls, it'd be like having a couple of chaise lounges there in the sun to relax on and scan your cookbooks for a recipe for the evening or a nice place to enjoy the Sunday paper and coffee.